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Arya Greyjoy

Who will Sansa marry?

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8 hours ago, The Weirwoods Eyes said:

As to who she marries Sandor. He's already given her his cloak twice. Third times a charm.  More importantly she is actually attracted to him and has an emotional and social connection to him. There is a lot of symbolism surrounding them which implies a marriage. And I don't care how gross some people find it.

No, no Sansan.

The brute feels sorry for the little bird. In that scene where he chills in Sansa's bed chamber --- the brute with, as martin describes it, his blood lust up, reels it in and let's the little girl be.

For years females have been hyping the Harlequin romance novels when it comes to SanSan --- yeah, yeah, beauty and the beast.

Lemme tell ya, I will be one pissed off pup if martin hooks up grown ass Sandor to the little bird that squawks to much.

 

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6 hours ago, Newstar said:

Even Littlefinger's plan to remarry Sansa to Harry doesn't contemplate an annulment but rather Tyrion's death, which should give you some idea of where GRRM is going with this.

I'm not sure how to approach this. You have made a rather good point. LF does tell Sansa Stark Lannister, that the marriage to Harry needs to wait until Tyrion is dead.

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15 hours ago, Newstar said:

And yet for all this talk of symbolic marriage and metaphorical marriage she is actually married to Tyrion, who is guaranteed to survive the series according to GRRM's 1993 outline. (Sandor of course has no such protection.) Furthermore, if GRRM had stuck to his original plan of having a five-year gap, Sansa would have been married to Tyrion for at least five years.

Thanks to GRRM, Sansa already has a real husband--not a metaphorical or symbolic husband, but a real husband--and he isn't going anywhere. Even Littlefinger's plan to remarry Sansa to Harry doesn't contemplate an annulment but rather Tyrion's death, which should give you some idea of where GRRM is going with this.

LOL no. GRRM has laid out the procedure for an annulment, and it's...surprisingly difficult, not to mention pretty much impossible for Sansa to pull off given her present circumstances, being a fugitive from the Crown and all. (And the idea that Sansa would just declare herself unmarried to rid herself of her marriage and risk her future children from any future unions being treated as bastards, after having had a firsthand taste of what it's like to live as a bastard herself, is silly. We all know that Sansa's not the sharpest knife in the drawer, but let's be serious, shall we?)

It's almost as if GRRM wants to make it very difficult for Sansa to remarry. I wonder why. 

Just, because Tyrion survived in the outline from 1993 doesn't mean he will in the actual books, But even if he does the marriage can be set aside. 

Yes he is a shield for her virginity.

Yes he has laid that out and it conveniently makes it very hard for anyone to set her marriage aside whilst she is in the south with LF who wants to use her as a pawn to marry off for his own benefit. 

Well, d'oh! So that she has her paper shield to protect her from political marriages until such a time as she can overrule her marriage under the 7 in order to marry of her own volition. 

As to the risk of bastardy, I think you have missed the part where the North doesn't give a fuck what the south or the Septons or the Iron Throne think and want to taste Bolton blood on their lips as a great big fuck you to them for betraying their king and taking them back under the grip of the IT. Also you might be missing the fact that there is about to be an almighty war in the south where the IT will change hands multiple time and in which the seven are going to become embroiled. Which will inevitably weaken them considerably.  Or the fact that Sansa is definitely ending up in WF; there has been a fair bit of foreshadowing, were no one gives a shit about the seven or their rules.  You work on the assumption that there will be a reunification of the regions at some point and that somehow the seven can over rule the North who have their own religion? When that doesn't seem likely at all given the direction the story is taking.  

 

Edited by The Weirwoods Eyes

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8 hours ago, Clegane'sPup said:

No, no Sansan.

The brute feels sorry for the little bird. In that scene where he chills in Sansa's bed chamber --- the brute with, as martin describes it, his blood lust up, reels it in and let's the little girl be.

For years females have been hyping the Harlequin romance novels when it comes to SanSan --- yeah, yeah, beauty and the beast.

Lemme tell ya, I will be one pissed off pup if martin hooks up grown ass Sandor to the little bird that squawks to much.

 

I intensely dislike the tendency to call women females. It is really unpleasant and dehumanising. We are people not live stock. 

Well I guess you'll be pissed off then. Cos I'd put money on it. 

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I'd think she'll marry Harold Arryn. By the time Harold dies, he'll fathered 3 bastards while Sansa birthed one with Jon Snow. 

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1 hour ago, Frey Kings said:

I'd think she'll marry Harold Arryn. By the time Harold dies, he'll fathered 3 bastards while Sansa birthed one with Jon Snow. 

There is no Harrold Arryn. 

Harrold Hardyng howether is a character in the books and one whom she has been loosely betrothed too. The thing is that she can't marry him whilst wed to Tyrion; there is that convenient paper shield again, and Harry seems quite likely to die soon given her wish for him to fall from his horse and break his head. Sansa's wishes are uncanny in how they come to pass. 

I don't think Harry the heir is anything other than a plot device to further Sansa's development both in her learning to play people and in that he'll give her access to a new familiar in the form of a Merlin by taking her hawking as a date.  There will also be some sort of development in regards to Randa Royce who is jealous of Sansa's betrothal to him. Not sure what that will be yet though. 

Edited by The Weirwoods Eyes

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12 hours ago, Clegane'sPup said:

No, no Sansan.

I'll let the man himself speak, who was asked in a 2012 interview whether he's aware that the ending won't please everyone:

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Of course I will disappoint some of my fans because they are making theories about who will finally take the throne: who would live, who would die… and they even imagine romantic pairings. 

I wonder which fans he means. Hmm.

4 hours ago, The Weirwoods Eyes said:

Just, because Tyrion survived in the outline from 1993 doesn't mean he will in the actual books,

Keep telling yourself that.

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But even if he does the marriage can be set aside. 

After five years' worth of marriage (as in the original five-year plan)?

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Well, d'oh! So that she has her paper shield

If a paper shield was all she needed, why didn't he marry Sansa off to some lesser, obviously doomed minor character like Hizdahr, or, heck, even Lancel, who was too weak to consummate? Instead, he married her off to one of the most important characters of the books and contrived a set of circumstances that would ensure that they would stay married for a considerable period of time (5+ years in his original plan). Why?

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As to the risk of bastardy, I think you have missed the part where the North doesn't give a fuck what the south or the Septons or the Iron Throne think

Maybe reread Cat and Robb's reaction to the news of Sansa's marriage before spouting off about what you think the North does and doesn't care about.

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I'd think she'll marry Harold Arryn. 

According to LF's plan, Sansa can't marry Harry until Tyrion dies, so no.

Edited by Newstar

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41 minutes ago, Newstar said:

I'll let the man himself speak, who was asked in a 2012 interview whether he's aware that the ending won't please everyone:

I wonder which fans he means. Hmm.

Keep telling yourself that.

After five years' worth of marriage (as in the original five-year plan)?

If a paper shield was all she needed, why didn't he marry Sansa off to some lesser, obviously doomed minor character like Hizdahr, or, heck, even Lancel, who was too weak to consummate? Instead, he married her off to one of the most important characters of the books and contrived a set of circumstances that would ensure that they would stay married for a considerable period of time (5+ years in his original plan). Why?

Maybe reread Cat and Robb's reaction to the news of Sansa's marriage before spouting off about what you think the North does and doesn't care about.

According to LF's plan, Sansa can't marry Harry until Tyrion dies, so no.

And you think he means me? Wow that's flattering but I doubt he knows I exist!. 

p.s SanSan is FAR from the only romantic pairing fans have 

You really are quite petty, I really don't have strong opinions on Tyrions fate at all tbh. There is some foreshadowing he'll die and yet I still am not certain. But he deserves more than a forced marriage to a woman who despises him. And who triggers all his insecurities about his lovabillity. Tyrions journey at least in part; a significant part, is about coming to terms with his dark side overcoming his demons. Not least of which is the part of him that craves to be genuinely loved like Tysha loved him and the intense craving he has for acceptance and the unconditional love one ought to have received from ones parents. Which he missed out on. I can't imagine a less narrative appropriate ending than him being trapped in a loveless marriage to a woman who can never desire him. 

I don't know ask GRRM. But I suspect it has to do with his overall plan. ie: Lancell's role in the faith militant and his placement at Darry taking him away from court where he needed Sansa in order for her role in the purple wedding to work out etc. and that he wants her virginity in tact.

He needed a character who had reason to postpone consummation. Tyrion with all his hang ups about the look of disgust on whores faces when he was younger and his intense need for real affection; so intense he fantasised it into existence with Shae to a truly delusional degree. The fact his character fits with a man who'd wait when it comes to his actual marriage because he knows to rape her would poison any chance he'd ever have of that happiness.  And Sansa's story arc requires her to grow into having autonomy over her sexuality as that is her journey. From feckless pawn to self actualisation, autonomous actions, and power to control her own sexuality. 

The five year gap was supposed to happen after ASOS. Sansa leaves KL as does Tyrion at the end of ASOS. They would have been spending those five years apart. 

Cat & Robb are thinking about things from the POV of that time. ie: the war is underway and they don't know who will win but Robb needs to make a will there and then which considers that they may loose the war and Sansa's husbands family win it. That has multiple complications such as him naming her heir and her husbands family claiming WF through her. or a child of theirs; don't forget they assume it is consummated, the landscape is very different now and will be different again once things shift around in TWOW. 

Yeah that is Baelish's view point and he is thinking in terms of the IT as that is his goal. He is a southron and his faith is the seven he is not interested in an independent North. His goal is power for himself via the back door. Of course he isn't thinking in terms of an independent autonomous northern region.  

I'm talking about Sansa in the North as Lady Stark of WF backed by the northern houses and her brothers/cousin. Non of whom give  a flying fuck about the seven. 

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16 hours ago, Clegane'sPup said:

Lemme tell ya, I will be one pissed off pup if martin hooks up grown ass Sandor to the little bird that squawks to much.

I don't think Martin cares, tbh.

Well, the Hound has the most chance of being Sansa's partner in her 'romantic' subplot, but 0% chance for marriage and not much more for any happy ending together IMO.

 

22 hours ago, Newstar said:

It's almost as if GRRM wants to make it very difficult for Sansa to remarry. I wonder why. 

Because it's a very convenient narrative logical reason to keep her from being married off until it's time her character's final role? (whatever it is)

Although there seems to be a shortage of eligible 'meaningful' candidates for her, so I'm starting to think that she really might marry some Harry the Heir or Willas Tyrell for alliance or not marry at all.

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29 minutes ago, Tianzi said:

Because it's a very convenient narrative logical reason to keep her from being married off until it's time her character's final role? (whatever it is)

This is it but this shield applies to many, not just Sansa. Westeros and Essos are extremely patriarchal which poses problems writing dynamic characterizations of women and children. When you look closely, all of the women and children who are major characters have some degree of shield (it does fluctuate throughout their arc sometimes) from the strongest members of patriarchy in the form of authority figures like husbands, fathers, etc after the first book. It all serves to keep their arcs more dynamic and allow more freedom to make certain choices which the author needs them to make to develop their character for when they have more autonomy in their own right later on.

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3 hours ago, The Weirwoods Eyes said:

p.s SanSan is FAR from the only romantic pairing fans have 

GRRM's talking about fans "imagining romantic pairings," and you don't think he's referencing SanSan? 

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But he deserves more than a forced marriage to a woman who despises him.

Eh, Tyrion probably deserved better than to lose his nose and be framed for regicide. I doubt GRRM cares much about what Tyrion "deserves." 

With that said, I do find it amusing when fans who obviously can't wait for Tyrion to die to make way for SanSan start talking about how it would be a terrible shame for poor Tyrion to end up married to Sansa when he deserves oh so much better. 

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I don't know ask GRRM. But I suspect it has to do with his overall plan. 

It absolutely does have to do with his overall plan, but I suspect it's not in the way you think.

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The five year gap was supposed to happen after ASOS. Sansa leaves KL as does Tyrion at the end of ASOS. They would have been spending those five years apart. 

So? They would have been married for those five years, and Tyrion is going to come back to Westeros one way or another. It's not a Jorah/Lynesse situation where one spouse just peaces out, never to be heard from again.

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I'm talking about Sansa in the North as Lady Stark of WF backed by the northern houses and her brothers/cousin. Non of whom give  a flying fuck about the seven. 

The marriage is binding until it's annulled, and GRRM has explained just how it can be annulled, or Tyrion (or Sansa) dies. 

1 hour ago, Tianzi said:

Because it's a very convenient narrative logical reason to keep her from being married off until it's time her character's final role? (whatever it is)

Only if you assume that her final role is to end up married to someone else...in which case, the decision to marry her off to a character who is going to survive the series seems awfully puzzling. 

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43 minutes ago, Newstar said:

Only if you assume that her final role is to end up married to someone else..

Not necessarily. It's just easier to work with a female character in this settings and keep her possibilities open without settling her down.

1 hour ago, Newstar said:

character who is going to survive the series

*character who possibly will survive the series

Anyway,

1. It's possible that something other than death of one of them dissolves the marriage.

2. I don't completely disregard the possibility of her staying married to Tyrion, though I don't see much benefit from it to their character arcs (especially since they're both major characters, and not 'a major character + her/his development prop').

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Tyrion is only a year or so younger than Sandor; he's just as ugly, just as brutal (actually worse: his brutalities are on a larger scale, and he shows no sign of repentance or even stress).

He pities Sansa, and despises her more than a little. He's not interested in her as a person at all - she's just a hot young body with a lordship attached. She's the wife he got out of a catalogue.

I cannot understand why readers who reject a match with Sandor don't also reject Tyrion.

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9 hours ago, Newstar said:

According to LF's plan, Sansa can't marry Harry until Tyrion dies, so no.

According to what Littlefinger told someone he has a track record of lying to. Not according to his plans. There is obviously a huge difference. Technically they are not properly married because there was no bedding. 

I don't think Littlefinger has any intention of letting Sansa marry Harry, it is something he is currently doing to distract Sansa. But I believe Sansa will somehow cast him down and take control of the Vale, and that will probably be by marrying Robert or Harry. 

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21 minutes ago, Springwatch said:

Tyrion is only a year or so younger than Sandor; he's just as ugly, just as brutal (actually worse: his brutalities are on a larger scale, and he shows no sign of repentance or even stress).

He pities Sansa, and despises her more than a little. He's not interested in her as a person at all - she's just a hot young body with a lordship attached. She's the wife he got out of a catalogue.

I cannot understand why readers who reject a match with Sandor don't also reject Tyrion.

Speaking only for myself though I doubt I'm the only one, but I think it's Tyrion because that's how I see the books going at least for the time being, not necessarily that I think they're ideal together.

Tyrion took the age difference off the table for me when he objected to sleeping with her due to her age, kept calling her a child or a girl and ultimately let her decide to not sleep with him. Neither are under any illusion of there being anything romantic between them. It's not a real marriage at that point so they're not comparable to me.

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28 minutes ago, Lollygag said:

Tyrion took the age difference off the table for me when he objected to sleeping with her due to her age, kept calling her a child or a girl and ultimately let her decide to not sleep with him.

No, that just makes him not-a-child-rapist.

He still lusted after her, kept seeing her as a romantic option (for example on some occassion when she didn't make fun of him he thought he could love her for that) and his thoughts are more of a guy bitter because of rejection from a woman than not an adult caretaker having problems with a child.

So, yeah, I'd say that any of the adult guys (Tyrion, Sandor, LF) having hots for a 12-yo Sansa is seriously messed up.

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The issue of whether Tyrion's marriage to Tysha had ever been dissolved is also a factor in considering whether his marriage to Sansa was ever valid. Tyrion seems to think he's still married to Tysha. On his first day at Illyrio's palace in Pentos, he wanders around and has a one-sided conversation with a washer woman he thinks doesn't understand him.

"Tell me, how far should I trust Magister Illyrio?" The name made her look up. "That far?" Chuckling, he crossed his stunted legs and took a drink. "I am loath to play whatever part the cheesemonger has in mind for me, yet how can I refuse him? The gates are guarded. Perhaps you might smuggle me out under your skirts? I'd be so grateful; why, I'll even wed you. I have two wives already, why not three? Ah, but where would we live?" He gave her as pleasant a smile as a man with half a nose could manage." - Tyrion 1, ADWD

"I have." Present tense. If his marriage to Tysha has not been dissolved in some way, his marriage to Sansa could be annulled. Tysha - yet another Chekov's gun waiting to be fired.

Regarding a Jon-Sansa pairing... This discussion is about the books. In the books, Jon is dead. GRRM has said so many times - not badly wounded, dead. If he is re-animated in a future book, it will be as a wight like Berric Dondarion or Lady Stoneheart. His heart won't be beating. His blood won't be pumping. Can an undead man consummate a marriage? 

Regarding Sandor. There is no textual basis for this, but, if Sansa becomes Lady of Winterfell, it would be a fitting reward for the many services Sandor has rendered the Stark family - saving her life and protecting Arya - for Sansa to give Sandor a lordship and lands in the North. We hope the Bolton's holdings will soon be vacant, for example. Whether she also chooses to wed him is another story. Sansa is often compared with Elizabeth of York or Elizabeth I. Why not Catherine the Great? Once she's grown up, she'll realize she can bed whomever she chooses. 

Sorry about the formatting irregularities - I haven't figured this system out.

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15 minutes ago, Tianzi said:

No, that just makes him not-a-child-rapist.

He still lusted after her, kept seeing her as a romantic option (for example on some occassion when she didn't make fun of him he thought he could love her for that) and his thoughts are more of a guy bitter because of rejection from a woman than not an adult caretaker having problems with a child.

So, yeah, I'd say that any of the adult guys (Tyrion, Sandor, LF) having hots for a 12-yo Sansa is seriously messed up.

Can't agree with the bolded more.

As for the rest, I went through all of this on the Sansa and Cognitive Dissonance thread so I'm not rehashing it. Springwatch asked why some people viewed Tyrion as ok but Sandor as not, and that's my opinion; Tyrion took the age problem off the table for me by choosing to not act on any of those feelings. It's not a real marriage.

Edited by Lollygag

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14 hours ago, The Weirwoods Eyes said:

intensely dislike the tendency to call women females. It is really unpleasant and dehumanising. We are people not live stock. 

Well I guess you'll be pissed off then. Cos I'd put money on it. 

Sorry you find the word female dehumanizing. Is a baby girl child born a woman? Is a girl child that has her menses a woman?

In this martin world a girl has her flowering (menses) and she is a woman grown.

Yeah, I guess I will. Then again, I also once said if Ghost dies I'll toss the book out the door. Then I'll go get it and continue reading.

Sandor in my opinion feels sorry for Sansa.  He had tried to help her within the limits of his capabilities. He offers to take her out of KL. She refuses and he leaves.

Now, let us say, just as you are able to espouse your ideas so to am I. No, no SanSan. :cheers:

 

 

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37 minutes ago, Tianzi said:

No, that just makes him not-a-child-rapist.

He still lusted after her, kept seeing her as a romantic option (for example on some occassion when she didn't make fun of him he thought he could love her for that) and his thoughts are more of a guy bitter because of rejection from a woman than not an adult caretaker having problems with a child.

So, yeah, I'd say that any of the adult guys (Tyrion, Sandor, LF) having hots for a 12-yo Sansa is seriously messed up.

So why does a large portion of the fandom pair Sansa with someone who is at least twice her age? 

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