Jump to content
Arya Greyjoy

Who will Sansa marry?

Recommended Posts

6 hours ago, Tianzi said:

I don't think Martin cares, tbh.

Oh, I agree martin does not care one iota. All martin can do is write the story. Individuals are gonna like it or not.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 minutes ago, Angel Eyes said:

So why does a large portion of the fandom pair Sansa with someone who is at least twice her age? 

...Are you seriously asking me why the fandom of ASOIAF supports messed-up?

26 minutes ago, Lollygag said:

I went through all of this on the Sansa and Cognitive Dissonance

Haven't been there, but I just love how every single Sansa related thread boils down to one thing...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
33 minutes ago, deja vu said:

The issue of whether Tyrion's marriage to Tysha had ever been dissolved is also a factor in considering whether his marriage to Sansa was ever valid

Oh yeah, let's not ignore that. Tywin is no longer there and Tysha's case is everpresent in Tyrion's head, so it's quite possible it's meant to be more than a sad backstory.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
15 minutes ago, Tianzi said:

...Are you seriously asking me why the fandom of ASOIAF supports messed-up?

Haven't been there, but I just love how every single Sansa related thread boils down to one thing...

Consider it a question to the forum at large.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

1 hour ago, deja vu said:

The issue of whether Tyrion's marriage to Tysha had ever been dissolved is also a factor in considering whether his marriage to Sansa was ever valid.

Littlefinger, a brilliant man who has ample incentive to make sure Sansa can marry Harry, knows all about Tyrion's marriage to Tysha and still thinks Sansa has to be widowed to get her out of her marriage, so no, the marriage is not void or voidable thanks to Tysha, unless you're arguing that you're smarter than Littlefinger, LOL. No one who knows about Tyrion's marriage to Tysha considers Tyrion's marriage to Sansa void or voidable as a result, either. 

The whole Tysha issue is beside the point in the discussion of an annulment, because Sansa already has a perfectly good basis for an annulment: non-consummation. However, she won't be able to avail herself of it until there's a friendly regime in KL to Sansa Stark, and that's not going to happen anytime soon...which, as I said, seems entirely deliberate on GRRM's part. 

Asking "Whom will Sansa marry?" is like asking "What will Dany name her dragons?" GRRM already answered the question. He may not have answered the question to your satisfaction, but he answered it. Let it go. 

 

Edited by Newstar

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Just now, Tianzi said:

Haven't been there, but I just love how every single Sansa related thread boils down to one thing... 

Just what I thought as I was going down the rabbit hole.

 

7 minutes ago, Angel Eyes said:

So why does a large portion of the fandom pair Sansa with someone who is at least twice her age? 

I'll take a wild and maybe (probably?) completely inaccurate stab. Just to be clear, it's not the twice her age that's so much a problem, it's more where it lands on the scale. 9/18 =/= 12/30 =/= 25/50.

For one, I'm wondering if how vocal Sansans are is making them seem like a larger group than what they actually are. Two, Sandor reminds me a lot of Heathcliff-type romantic leads and this type is insanely popular in a lot of women's romantic arcs now-a-days across various genres. The bad-ass/angsty dude who is emotionally damaged but love/the woman can save him...it's definitely a thing. Think the Twilight and 50 Shades phenomena. This is my impression from reading other books, and I'm wondering how much bleed over there is into ASOIAF in this regard.

I'd leave it to folks to speak for themselves, but absent that, this is what it looks like to me.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, Springwatch said:

I cannot understand why readers who reject a match with Sandor don't also reject Tyrion.

Story wise Sansa is a hostage of Lannister.  Her claim to WF is the driving force. Robb is dead. Bran & Rickon are believed to be dead. Except Bran & Rickon aren't dead.

Dontos is a lackey of LF. Sansa told Dontos of the idea that the Tyrell's were going to wed Sansa to Wyllis. Dontos told LF of the plan. LF then told Lannister of the plan and Lannister wed Sansa to Tyrion to stop that plan.

Neither Sandor nor Tyrion forced sex on the 13 year old girl who is in martin's story considered a woman grown due to onset of her menses.

Sansa Stark Lannister is wanted by the throne as an accomplice in the death of the King. Sansa is aware of that. Sansa is also aware she is married.

LF, the man who owns brothels (pimp) is telling Sansa he is going to give her -----

Sansa's marriage was not consummated. Iffin' I remember correctly her marriage can be set aside.

The sticky part is Sansa is a fugitive.

That means Lannister control of the IT must end or/and Tyrion must die.

The point is that Sansa is still verra much a pawn.

I really do hope Sansa out smarts LF. I just think she has many more trials and tribulations ahead of her.

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

In the entirety of ASOIAF and the backstory of Westeros as in related works, there are women who have ditched their husbands to live elsewhere (Mellario, Lynesse Hightower, etc.). There are women have been widowed and have remarried (Margaery, Lysa, Dany, Queen Nymeria, Elaena Targaryen, etc.). There is even a single example of a marriage annulled for non-consummation (Baelor/Daena Targaryen). However, what there is not is a single female character (in a cast of thousands) who has remarried after her marriage was annulled. 

Is this a coincidence on GRRM's part, and could Sansa be the exception? Nope and nope. Remember ADWD: "Wolves and women wed for life." Sansa's already married, and like every other woman in the whole of ASOIAF, TWOIAF, and beyond, she's stuck with him and him alone as a husband until he dies. (Doesn't work the other way around, of course.) She can run off to Essos and take a lover as Lynesse did. She can live apart from Tyrion as Mellario does with Doran. Heck, she may even get an annulment at some point far in the future, but she will never have another husband unless Tyrion dies, and he won't. If someone has to die to undo that marriage, it won't be Tyrion.

Edited by Newstar

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
8 minutes ago, Newstar said:

"Wolves and women wed for life."

What an unfeminist message. Maybe George will take this chance to correct it.

 

55 minutes ago, Newstar said:

knows all about Tyrion's marriage to Tysha and still thinks Sansa has to be widowed to get her out of her marriage,

Or that's just what he's telling her.

 

13 minutes ago, Newstar said:

unless Tyrion dies, and he won't.

Nice spoiler Mr. Mart... Oh wait, just another fan wishful thinking.

 

1 hour ago, Angel Eyes said:

Consider it a question to the forum at large.

Well, if we are fans of ASOIAF we have to roll with the disturbed anyway. It's just a part of the deal. I mean, look at the two protagonists' ancestry. Joffrey's parentage looks downright modest compared to it.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
57 minutes ago, Lollygag said:

Two, Sandor reminds me a lot of Heathcliff-type romantic leads and this type is insanely popular in a lot of women's romantic arcs now-a-days across various genres. The bad-ass/angsty dude who is emotionally damaged but love/the woman can save him...it's definitely a thing. Think the Twilight and 50 Shades phenomena. This is my impression from reading other books, and I'm wondering how much bleed over there is into ASOIAF in this regard.

Yup. I'd add that Sandor and Sansa have canonical hots for each other and actual personal connection, so not in the marriage department, but in the romance department this pairing seems just more valid. That said, he's still in his twenties while she's 12 (Not 13, folks. Joffrey turns 13 on the day Tyrion is separated from Sansa, and Sandor had left earlier. They were both after a 12 yo.), and has said things like 'Should have fucked her bloody.' So I'm not going to call 'healthy!' on this one.

But yeah, he also just fits some kind of a fantasy, while Tyrion... has female fans of course but I have yet to come across one claiming he is sexy. I think that's also one of the reasons why SanSan seems to* have mostly female fans, while Tyrion's supporters (fugly but kind guy, 'deserves' the beautiful girl because he treated her well) seem* to be mostly male.

 

*Yeah, just an impression, haven't done any statistics.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Tianzi said:

What an unfeminist message. Maybe George will take this chance to correct it.
 

GRRM had his leading female character fall in love with her rapist and you think he cares about feminist messaging?

Quote

Nice spoiler Mr. Mart... Oh wait, just another fan wishful thinking.

" I want the reader to feel that no one is ever completely safe, not even the characters who seem to be the heroes. The suspense always ratchets up a notch when you know that any character can die at any time. Five central characters will make it through all three [as then planned] volumes, however (...)"

He also told IGN that he has planned the broad strokes of the same ending since 1991.

Tyrion's a bastard, no question, but he's GRRM's bastard: his favourite character, the character he loves writing, the character he admits he wishes he were like, one of his beloved original five, etc. etc. Sansa is...none of these things. Sansa is not guaranteed to be sacrificed on Tyrion's altar so that GRRM's unquestioned fave can walk out of ASOIAF with a gorgeous young wife (which is totally not wish fulfilment because she's not the gorgeous young wife who truly loved him and whom he lost forever, I guess), but it would not surprise me in the slightest

Edited by Newstar

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Tianzi said:

What an unfeminist message. Maybe George will take this chance to correct it.

WTF do you know about what females endured in past ages?  Should history be rewritten?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 6/25/2018 at 11:10 PM, Nevets said:

They're also closely related.  Blackfish is their great-uncle and Edmure is their uncle.  That is probably too close a blood relationship to really be accepted.  Cousins are OK, but I doubt anything closer is.

Blackfish is gay. Lord Hoster seems to be the only member of the family who is unwilling to accept it and keeps nagging his brother to marry.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
13 minutes ago, Lollygag said:

GRRM has contradicted himself all over the place

Using my David Tennant voice --ack tis true.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
13 hours ago, Newstar said:

GRRM's talking about fans "imagining romantic pairings," and you don't think he's referencing SanSan? 

No I think he's talking about the various romantic pairings people imagine. 

13 hours ago, Newstar said:

Eh, Tyrion probably deserved better than to lose his nose and be framed for regicide. I doubt GRRM cares much about what Tyrion "deserves." 

With that said, I do find it amusing when fans who obviously can't wait for Tyrion to die to make way for SanSan start talking about how it would be a terrible shame for poor Tyrion to end up married to Sansa when he deserves oh so much better.

Tyrion is on a journey, one that involves various themes most of which involve his feelings about his dwarfism and his looks, his lack of female affection, his daddy issues, his strained relationship with his siblings, and his sense of not quite fitting in in his world. 

Loosing his nose is part of that journey, as was marrying a beautiful girl who would never desire him or want him as a companion in life, he's been released from that fate and part of his journey is about realising his terrible relationship with and treatment of women and how that all relates to the horror of what happened to Tysha and what he was made to believe about that relationship. It does not make any sense thematically for him to end up in a miserable relationship with a woman who can never love him. I'm not saying it will be happy ever after with someone for him either, I think he's likely to end the story single but much more comfortable with himself and able to look for love in the right places at last. 

If you think I can't wait for Tyrion to die then you don't know much about me as a forum member! I have never promoted the idea he's going to die, I accept he might die as people have pointed out the potential foreshadowing for that. But I'm on the fence. I'd like to see him live.  And I don't think he needs to die in order for Sansa to be free to wed again. As I have explained. 

13 hours ago, Newstar said:

It absolutely does have to do with his overall plan, but I suspect it's not in the way you think.

Jolly good for you but you are far from the authority on that. I'll respectfully disagree. 

 

13 hours ago, Newstar said:

So? They would have been married for those five years, and Tyrion is going to come back to Westeros one way or another. It's not a Jorah/Lynesse situation where one spouse just peaces out, never to be heard from again.

Married but estranged. They would still have never consummated and that is the crucial factor in whether a marriage is deemed valid. Within the faith of the seven which is not relivant to the Old Gods, but which is the cultural norm due to Andelisation spreading into the north over the years. I suspect this crucial point will come into play. 

With all due respect Tyrion's return to Westeros is unimportant once Sansa is away from the south and in a of power in the North. Who is going to enforce the marriage? Who is going to make her return to Tyrion and be a dutiful wife? 

13 hours ago, Newstar said:

The marriage is binding until it's annulled, and GRRM has explained just how it can be annulled, or Tyrion (or Sansa) dies

 Yes, Under the seven! It also by the way explains why they are not actually married as Tywin circumvented those rules when he had Tyrion's wedding to Tysha; which was consummated, annulled. He did not petition the High Septon himself, as LF explains one needs to. His father gathered a few Westerlands Septons together and intimidated them into agreeing to ignore the fact Tyrion had married and bedded his bride.  

All of which still is unimportant to Sansa because Sansa can declare herself single, swear to her virginity, and wed who she wants in the North as an independent nation with an entirely separate religion.  But which might well become important to Tyrion. Whose story very much revolves around that wedding and that bride. 

13 hours ago, Newstar said:

Only if you assume that her final role is to end up married to someone else...in which case, the decision to marry her off to a character who is going to survive the series seems awfully puzzling. 

My assumption that she will marry someone else is based on reams of text which indicates that she will, thematic similarities to other great and respected works of fiction the author adores, the romance genre as a whole which he has said ASOIAF is partially part of and has defended from the disdain that many readers hold towards it, the feelings and desires of the actual characters, and the foreshadowing which implies she will. 

It is only puzzling when you ignore the fact he chose a character who would not consummate the marriage, had them separated after a brief period, and placed rules into the story that negated the marriage in the eyes of one parties faith and the population as a whole; ie that he was already wed.  Tyrion is a defence against her being married off to anyone else during the 5 year gap. That didn't happen but the period after she is separated from him still see's her dodging marriages left and right. First her Aunt then LF seek to use her in order to gain or solidify power for their own gain. The only thing standing in their way is Tyrion who to their knowledge is her husband and who abide by the seven as the authority on matters of marriage.  And who are both southerners thinking in terms of a united seven kingdoms. 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
9 hours ago, Clegane'sPup said:

Sorry you find the word female dehumanizing. Is a baby girl child born a woman? Is a girl child that has her menses a woman?

In this martin world a girl has her flowering (menses) and she is a woman grown.

Yeah, I guess I will. Then again, I also once said if Ghost dies I'll toss the book out the door. Then I'll go get it and continue reading.

Sandor in my opinion feels sorry for Sansa.  He had tried to help her within the limits of his capabilities. He offers to take her out of KL. She refuses and he leaves.

Now, let us say, just as you are able to espouse your ideas so to am I. No, no SanSan. :cheers:

It is the way it has been used over the last decade or so by usually younger men who use it in order to reduce women to things to have sex with as opposed to human beings with thoughts, feelings, and opinions equal to their own.

 

Well if you don't see it you don't see it. I shan't assume that you just haven't heard the arguments yet as I know you have been around here a long time and are an intelligent person who generally has a good reading comprehension. So agree to disagree. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
9 hours ago, Newstar said:

GRRM had his leading female character fall in love with her rapist and you think he cares about feminist messaging?

I was half-joking and this is a question for a broad discussion, but overall, given his creation of female characters (especially given the standards in fantasy when he was starting) and changes in subsequent books, I'm going to say mostly yes.

 

8 hours ago, Clegane'sPup said:

WTF do you know about what females endured in past ages?  Should history be rewritten?

Females of what species? I think spider females were fine.

What? Describing realities and message are two different things.

 

9 hours ago, Newstar said:

" I want the reader to feel that no one is ever completely safe, not even the characters who seem to be the heroes. The suspense always ratchets up a notch when you know that any character can die at any time. Five central characters will make it through all three [as then planned] volumes, however (...)"

He also told IGN that he has planned the broad strokes of the same ending since 1991.

First, I'm taking it with a grain of salt, second, he could've changed his mind ('gardening and whatsoever), third it might just mean they just make it to the climax of the story.

 

9 hours ago, Newstar said:

Tyrion's a bastard, no question, but he's GRRM's bastard: his favourite character, the character he loves writing, the character he admits he wishes he were like, one of his beloved original five, etc. etc. Sansa is...none of these things. Sansa is not guaranteed to be sacrificed on Tyrion's altar so that GRRM's unquestioned fave can walk out of ASOIAF with a gorgeous young wife (which is totally not wish fulfilment because she's not the gorgeous young wife who truly loved him and whom he lost forever, I guess), but it would not surprise me in the slightest

Still more than a bit of a wish fulfilment, if she stops resenting him, starts respecting him and puts out for him, lol.

Yeah, I'm not deeming it impossible (as I've already said), but frankly I doubt it, as thus far Martin has been pretty unsentimental about how women who have eyes (and don't desperately need gold) see Tyrion. And I say that that 'be careful what you wish for' aspect with wanting a gorgeous young wife was one of the primary narrative goals of having this marriage in the first place, and it has been fulfilled. Martin put so much effort into creating atmosphere of ultimate discomfort and gloominess between Sansa and Tyrion, that I honestly doubt he'll bend the narrative to try to heal that. It would just contradict what was doing with the characters. But yeah, of course, staying formally married or/and having some kind of a deal/partnership between these two is not out of question.

Edited by Tianzi

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
13 hours ago, Tianzi said:

Females of what species? I think spider females were fine.

What? Describing realities and message are two different things.

Let me be condescending and state this simply. Sansa Stark Lannister is a pawn.

Females of the 21st century do not seem to understand what their granny's and great gran's and great great gran's went though.

Sure if a female was born into a loving family the the family dealt with the domestic abuse. That is if the the female spoke up about said trauma.

Females could not own property. If daddy left the daughter property a male was named overseer. Men were able to put unruly wives in mental asylums without question.

More likely the female (woman) hid emotional, spiritual, physical abuse for more than a couple reasons--- you made your bed, lay in it--- it was humiliating to have the male beat or berate you because it meant she did something wrong. Religious teachings.

In martin's Westeros there appears to me there are only two old ladies that don't  fit--- Lady Dustin & Olenna. Then there are the Mormonts, Osha, and Asha.

You or anyone else that cares to banter can dislike the word female, that is your privilege.

When modern women, grown ass adult females refer to each other as a female dog, bitch --- that is when I get my hackles up.

Let us get back to martin and his Westeros. Girl babes, girl children, females, are unimportant, except to marry them off so they can breed.

It is what it is. :cheers:

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
52 minutes ago, Clegane'sPup said:

Let me be condescending

You probably should wait with that until the reasoning in your posts has the quality to back it up.

Martin is a 21st century writer and a self-proclaimed feminist.

Yes, he does describe a patriarchal society.

Yes, he has ideas like a girl falling in love with her rapist.

But he creates a variety of female characters, whose actions, thinking and decision-making (of differing quality - no risk of 'positive discrimination with Cersei onboard) affect the plot and shape their own lives. Should be obvious, but really isn't in many works. He gives them identities and while they have way less institutional power than men, they take actions of their own - within the boundaries of the patriarchal system or outside of it - and their actions matter.

He also usually doesn't shy away for depicting problems of patriarchal (and feudal) society, rather than giving us 'it is Medieval-ish world, roll with it' mindset. To put it simply: mistreatment of women is portrayed as bad, bad thing. Even if it's common. Even if it happens to unsympathetic characters like Cersei or Lysa Arryn.

To put it even more simply: Brienne good. Randyll Tarly a dick.

Of course, Martin doesn't sugarcoat how going against the established system can get disastrous consequences either (you can get the impression that stability > morals). He usually explores issues like class division, gender roles, culture clash, tradition vs innovation, morals of ruling, etc. multidimensionally.

So while some invididuals of the 21st century, of both genders, seem not to get that, 'feminist message' =/= 'the female protagonist waves a sword, opens her own firm and castrates all males'.

So, back to Sansa, who has indeed been mostly a pawn and one of the most passive character in the books, that's part of why I want her to become more of her own person and shape her destiny, and not be a prop in Tyrion's character arc. And if she has to stay married to him, I want it to be her own decision with some agenda and not 'the prize obediently returned to her (male) owner'. If she marries someone less narratively important than her, she will still not own land (lol), but her storyline will be about her.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
6 minutes ago, Tianzi said:

You probably should wait with that until the reasoning in your posts has the quality to back it up.

This is the point. I came flat out and said what my intent was. Our banter has moved on from my use of the word female.

8 minutes ago, Tianzi said:

To put it even more simply: Brienne good. Randyll Tarly a dick.

Agree.

10 minutes ago, Tianzi said:

So, back to Sansa, who has indeed been mostly a pawn and one of the most passive character in the books

Agree.

11 minutes ago, Tianzi said:

that's part of why I want her to become more of her own person and shape her destiny,

Understandable. I would verra much like Sansa to outsmart LF. Maybe LF will fly out the moon door in spring.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now

×