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Who will Sansa marry?


Arya Greyjoy

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4 hours ago, Springwatch said:

I think I get it. The idea is that Sandor reeled in his desire to rape Sansa. I don't agree - I'm no expert on rape, but purely as a reader, the reality of rape does not come across to me in this scene. He throws her on a bed, then demands, at knifepoint  - a song - and waits quietly while she sings it. He doesn't offer or demand to take her away; he says I could keep you safe - which is as tentative and unforceful as you can get. Compare with now you're mine, which is (?) what he says when he's snatching Aya. No choice there. The fucked her bloody line was when he wanted the gift of mercy from Arya - it was aimed at enraging her; we don't know what he really thinks (though I'm sure he's gone over the bedroom scene a lot in his mind - it was pretty weird).

Sandor had been fighting for many hours; he was traumatised by wildfire and the shame of desertion; he was very drunk and very sick. He was exhausted - I don't think rape was on his mind at all. A kiss seems possible and might have led downhill from there, but it didn't happen.

Yes I don't get the impression he had any intent or desire to rape her.  I agree with this assessment. 

4 hours ago, Springwatch said:

Readers like plausible theories, but there's no need. This is fantasy, lots of weird stuff is going to happen. Sansa's not nailed to the Vale. She could leave by the Moon Door, stepping onto the back of a dragon. She could skinchange a snowbear or a spearwife, while her sleeping body is kept alive with honey water and herbs. She could be carried north by an invasion of Others, preparatory to a blood magic sacrifice of her special kingsblood. Anything. It's more difficult for Sandor, but if there is a Last Hero type expedition, he's sure to be on it.

Hahaha! I love it. Yes anything could happen why people feel she is trapped in the Vale forever more I don't know. It seems obvious narratively that she and most other people are going to end up up North especially if their last name is Stark. That is where the story is going to take them. Bran even seems to be calling his siblings to him or to the north in general he speaks to Theon and tries to influence him and those around him; Theon is a foster brother. He seems to be calling to Arya in her TWOW sample chapter in the same way he appeared to Jon earlier in his wolf dream.  I fully expect him to call to Sansa too when she goes to pray. Which she is likely to do given her lament of the lack of heart tree up in the Eyrie.  

In fact her sneaking off to the Gods Wood might have duel purpose in the story. To allow Bran to contact her and to allow someone to see her and add to their suspicions. Say Randa Royce or Lady Waynwood. 

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I get it I ready do. You support SanSan. My entire premise thoughout our discussions has been Sandor does not need saving. In my opinion there is no beauty and the beast theme here.

13 hours ago, The Weirwoods Eyes said:

I'm afraid I am still failing to see your point re Sandor reeling her in? Please elaborate. 

First off, I did not type the word "her." I typed the word "it." No, there is no further need to elaborate.

13 hours ago, The Weirwoods Eyes said:

GRRM isn't writing torture porn. And as much as many fans would love to see something Horrific happen to Sansa nothing in her story development implies this, her story is all about growth and gaining strength and agency. Only idiots like the show writers think Rape is some how empowering.  Nothing about being raped fits with the narrative which is being developed for her.

Isn't that cute.  I try  to have a reasonably polite interchange of information, thoughts and ideas and you start blathering about torture porn and what you think martin thinks when actually what you are typing  is what you think  martin thinks.

I don't know the author personally.  I have never met the man. Therefore I do not presume to assume that I know where martin it going to take the saga. If SanSan becomes a reality in this story I would say good for you, you guessed it correctly.

Are we done here? I think we are.

8 hours ago, Springwatch said:

I think I get it. The idea is that Sandor reeled in his desire to rape Sansa.

Correct.  He either desires her sexually or he doesn't. Either way he walked away. It was/is Sansa who has the fantasies.

8 hours ago, Springwatch said:

The fucked her bloody line was when he wanted the gift of mercy from Arya - it was aimed at enraging her;

Correct.

 

 

 

 

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7 hours ago, The Weirwoods Eyes said:

Yes, I recall we discussed some interesting ideas surrounding this theme. 

I agree that the next two books will get a bit freaky. I think the business of the IT will be mostly settled by TWOW's close with the Lannisters done, fAegon unmasked, and Dany in Westeros. With the real business going on in the North.   There being an independent North in TWOW doesn't mean I think there will be a focus on political wars throughout the book. But rather that by the end of it we will see the Starks firmly back in WF. Where Sansa can behead LF, and marry whoever she likes. After that if Dany manages to unite the Kingdoms again so be it but I think at that point the bigger problem will be on the horizon and Jon will be pointing out that they can argue over that stuff later if there is anyone left alive. 

This bit would be where Sansa's skills come into play, the bit leading up to the point where everyone just decides to talk about it all if they live. 

Marrying so far bellow her is setting herself free. She isn't really heir to WF Bran is alive and Rickon is too; though I think he dies, I think she rules for a time but that Bran is calling all the wolf pack home and eventually will show back up himself.  By marrying Sandor she is putting two fingers up to the social expectations which have ruled her life for so long. 

Are those fingers thumbs up, pointer fingers or middle fingers?

Never knew Sansa liked men 15+ years her senior. 

 

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42 minutes ago, Angel Eyes said:

Never knew Sansa liked men 15+ years her senior. 

 

Under LF's tutelage Sansa is interested in Ser Harrold Hardying now. It's him that matters, him and the Waynwoods.

The Winds of Winter - Alayne I     Harry the Heir, Alayne thought. My husband-to-be, if he will have me. A sudden terror filled her. She wondered if her face was red. Don't stare at him, she reminded herself, don't stare, don't gape, don't gawk. Look away. Her hair must be a frightful mess after all that running. It took all her will to stop herself from trying to tuck the loose strands back into place. Never mind your stupid hair. Your hair doesn't matter. It's him that matters. Him, and the Waynwoods.

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Jaime Lannister - no, he's in Kingsguard.
Sandor Clegane - probably but he's too lowborn, might be one Sansa's guard tho.
Theon Greyjoy - considering he kills her "brother", he's too broken as well.
Gendry - He's no baratheon, so no.
Tyrion Lannister - aren't they already married?, I doubt GRRM will remarry them even in political reasons, Sansa rarely talks about him.
Robin Arryn - This is the most likely if he manage survive, he's the last Arryn.
Samwell Tarly - he's of Night's Watch, and he already have Gilly
Euron Greyjoy - I doubt they'll even meet, North is also at war with the Ironborns, Sansa will never forget what they did to Winterfell.
Willas Tyrell - The chance have passed and aside from the fact that Tyrell's are doomed, Mace and Loras hates Sansa because they think Sansa wants to kill Margaery.
Dies single - She's too important to die single.
Harry the Arse and Aegon Blackfyre is also a good candidate, although i'm not convince that Varys and LF will be allies, they hate each other and both of them are major player in the game.

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10 hours ago, Clegane'sPup said:

I get it I ready do. You support SanSan. My entire premise thoughout our discussions has been Sandor does not need saving. In my opinion there is no beauty and the beast theme here.

I don't "support" SanSan, it is in the text. 

10 hours ago, Clegane'sPup said:

First off, I did not type the word "her." I typed the word "it." No, there is no further need to elaborate.

Well there is if you wanted me to understand your point, you don't seem to have a point and that could be why you refuse to elaborate. It? really? I'm beginning to think I misjudged you. 

10 hours ago, Clegane'sPup said:

Isn't that cute.  I try  to have a reasonably polite interchange of information, thoughts and ideas and you start blathering about torture porn and what you think martin thinks when actually what you are typing  is what you think  martin thinks.

I don't know the author personally.  I have never met the man. Therefore I do not presume to assume that I know where martin it going to take the saga. If SanSan becomes a reality in this story I would say good for you, you guessed it correctly.

Are we done here? I think we are.

Not sure why you have suddenly turned really hostile and rude. 

Having a woman recount her own rape from within her head as it is happening is akin to torture porn, you might disagree but I think that says more about you than the genre.  I told you that GRRM has said he won't do that.  That came from him not me. 

Have you read many books in your life? After you have done so you begin to understand how stories are structured and how to recognise patterns and clues as to the outcomes. GRRM uses a lot of different well known and understood literary techniques in his books his editor has even talked about some of them, he's talked a lot about writing and about his love of the many different genre's including Romance. If you look at Sansa & Sandor you can see that it follows the structure of a romance novel. You might dislike this but it is there in the text. If you read his back catalogue you can see that he's used this before too. And that he has a penchant for B&TB as a story. He talks about that too! He creates characters who fit the motif over and over in his works and he chose art work which mirrors his favourite B&TB cinema poster  for a calendar page depicting Sansa & the Hound. 

Another thing that helps when trying to understand where a story might be going is English Literature as a subject, did you take it? I did. Admittedly only at A level. But even so it teaches the understanding of literature, the meanings, the authors intent, the themes of the story, etc etc etc.  Obviously you can chose to dismiss this as me being a snob. Go ahead many others do. But when doing so instead of presenting an alternative idea supported by the text it only looks like spitting your dummy out. Another tactic might be to decry Oh No! GRRM does not follow traditional story structure! But you'd be wrong. He totally does he just uses a smoke and mirrors technique that makes it seem on a superficial level that he doesn't. It is a very classic heroes journey saga, coming of age story, romance, hidden prince, mosaic (have probably missed a few themes.) combining many classic story structures to create an absolute masterpiece. 

Yeah we're done. I look forward to your congratulations when SanSan happens.

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10 hours ago, Angel Eyes said:

Are those fingers thumbs up, pointer fingers or middle fingers?

Never knew Sansa liked men 15+ years her senior. 

Flicking the V; I'm British.

It's there in the book, she's fantasised a kiss from him, fantasised about scandalising her peers by telling them, she's dreaming of him naked and erect in her marital bed. This isn't me this is the books. I don't give a shit if some people find it gross. I'm not the one writing this. It isn't about my moral compass it is in the story.  

 

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1 hour ago, Pikachu101 said:

Dude they're siblings 

You know there is a lot of the fandom that seems mildly obsessed with incest, despite GRRM essentially only writing Jaime/Cersei and the Targaryens that way. The fact that many of them seem to want it to happen disturbs me to no end. 

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20 hours ago, The Weirwoods Eyes said:

Yes I don't get the impression he had any intent or desire to rape her

Yes, I don't think this is a case of maybe he did, and maybe he didn't; the pointers all point one way. This one too: No one would hurt you again, or I'd kill them. Sandor's perspective is that the hurt to Sansa comes from other people, and he is opposed to that. Sandor's sin against Sansa is threatening behaviour, and that is consistent through his entire story.

20 hours ago, The Weirwoods Eyes said:

Hahaha! I love it. Yes anything could happen...

Me too! I love 'anything could happen....' If we have to wait a decade for a book, at least we're in a golden spot for speculation.

20 hours ago, The Weirwoods Eyes said:

... It seems obvious narratively that she and most other people are going to end up up North especially if their last name is Stark. That is where the story is going to take them. Bran even seems to be calling his siblings to him or to the north in general he speaks to Theon and tries to influence him and those around him; Theon is a foster brother. He seems to be calling to Arya in her TWOW sample chapter in the same way he appeared to Jon earlier in his wolf dream.  I fully expect him to call to Sansa too when she goes to pray. Which she is likely to do given her lament of the lack of heart tree up in the Eyrie.  

The Hour of the Wolf.   :)

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16 hours ago, Clegane'sPup said:

I get it I ready do. You support SanSan. My entire premise thoughout our discussions has been Sandor does not need saving. In my opinion there is no beauty and the beast theme here.

Do you though? SanSan is not a cult with a strictly defined set of beliefs. Everyone you're talking to here is an individual, and no-one I know of is expecting an exact retelling of Beauty & The Beast, the fairytale.

15 hours ago, Angel Eyes said:

Never knew Sansa liked men 15+ years her senior. 

But this isn't the 21st century dating scene; it isn't a case of like/not like. I dunno, I think maybe modern media has trained us to see no romance without lots of hot, sexy scenes. This is just a girl thinking about a man, without committing or embarrassing herself. Both of them would have to change a great deal before any actual relationship would be viable.

15 hours ago, Clegane'sPup said:

The Winds of Winter - Alayne I

The plot may not turn on SanSan (romances can be tragic too, for that matter).

But the true self, and where lies stop and the true self begins is so massively important that none of it can be written or read casually.

Quote

[Baelish] "... Trust no one, I once told Eddard Stark, but he would not listen. You are Alayne, and you must be Alayne all the time." He put two fingers on her left breast. "Even here. In your heart. Can you do that? Can you be my daughter in your heart?"

AFFC - SANSA I

If Sansa truly becomes Alayne to her heart, she is lost, her selfhood has been swept away. Equally, if she can't appear to be Alayne to the heart, living her life, thinking her thoughts, she is also lost.

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6 hours ago, The Weirwoods Eyes said:

Not sure why you have suddenly turned really hostile and rude.

:blink: not hostile, assertive.

6 hours ago, The Weirwoods Eyes said:

Having a woman recount her own rape from within her head as it is happening is akin to torture porn, you might disagree but I think that says more about you than the genre.  I told you that GRRM has said he won't do that.  That came from him not me. 

Have you read many books in your life? After you have done so you begin to understand how stories are structured and how to recognise patterns and clues as to the outcomes. GRRM uses a lot of different well known and understood literary techniques in his books his editor has even talked about some of them, he's talked a lot about writing and about his love of the many different genre's including Romance. If you look at Sansa & Sandor you can see that it follows the structure of a romance novel. You might dislike this but it is there in the text. If you read his back catalogue you can see that he's used this before too. And that he has a penchant for B&TB as a story. He talks about that too! He creates characters who fit the motif over and over in his works and he chose art work which mirrors his favourite B&TB cinema poster  for a calendar page depicting Sansa & the Hound. 

Another thing that helps when trying to understand where a story might be going is English Literature as a subject, did you take it? I did. Admittedly only at A level. But even so it teaches the understanding of literature, the meanings, the authors intent, the themes of the story, etc etc etc.  Obviously you can chose to dismiss this as me being a snob. Go ahead many others do. But when doing so instead of presenting an alternative idea supported by the text it only looks like spitting your dummy out. Another tactic might be to decry Oh No! GRRM does not follow traditional story structure! But you'd be wrong. He totally does he just uses a smoke and mirrors technique that makes it seem on a superficial level that he doesn't. It is a very classic heroes journey saga, coming of age story, romance, hidden prince, mosaic (have probably missed a few themes.) combining many classic story structures to create an absolute masterpiece. 

Yeah we're done. I look forward to your congratulations when SanSan happens.

Carry on. :cheers:

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3 hours ago, Springwatch said:

Do you though? SanSan is not a cult with a strictly defined set of beliefs. Everyone you're talking to here is an individual, and no-one I know of is expecting an exact retelling of Beauty & The Beast, the fairytale.

But this isn't the 21st century dating scene; it isn't a case of like/not like. I dunno, I think maybe modern media has trained us to see no romance without lots of hot, sexy scenes. This is just a girl thinking about a man, without committing or embarrassing herself. Both of them would have to change a great deal before any actual relationship would be viable.

The plot may not turn on SanSan (romances can be tragic too, for that matter).

But the true self, and where lies stop and the true self begins is so massively important that none of it can be written or read casually.

If Sansa truly becomes Alayne to her heart, she is lost, her selfhood has been swept away. Equally, if she can't appear to be Alayne to the heart, living her life, thinking her thoughts, she is also lost.

So which one will she do?

 

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8 hours ago, Springwatch said:

SanSan is not a cult with a strictly defined set of beliefs. Everyone you're talking to here is an individual,

I quite agree. For fun and for free let us individuals hear what martin said waaaaaaaaaaaay back in 2012

iffin the link doesn't work do the copy paste thing on your browser.

 

 

 

 

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9 hours ago, Lord of Raventree Hall said:

You know there is a lot of the fandom that seems mildly obsessed with incest, despite GRRM essentially only writing Jaime/Cersei and the Targaryens that way. The fact that many of them seem to want it to happen disturbs me to no end. 

Thank you! :bowdown:

Remember the good old days when people shipped Jon with women he wasn't related to? 

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4 hours ago, prettylongclaw said:

Jon will be the King of Westeros and Sansa Stark will be his wife. George always planned to have jon married to a Stark girl in the forst outline and he kept his idea. Which is why Sansa escaped from Winterfell, met Jon Snow at Castle Black, spent lots of time together and strated to develope feelings for each other and they will be free to be together in season 8 once they found about Jon real parents.

 

Jon entire arc in the books and show was to learn about leadership and how to rule, Sansa has been groomed to be a queen from season 1. Thats why she spent time in Kings Landing and the Vale learning and oberserving the most powerful people in Westeros to make their moves. 

I could literally write down every single foreshadowing of Jon and Sansa from the show and also the ones pointing out that Sansa will be the final queen. They werent shy at all. 

This is the Book Forum, we do not discuss the show here. 

 

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6 hours ago, prettylongclaw said:

they will be free to be together in season 8

This is a book thread 

6 hours ago, prettylongclaw said:

Jon entire arc in the books and show was to learn about leadership and how to rule

I feel his arc is about the song whilst Sansa's is all about the politics, I also really don't want George to go down a lotr route with a prophesied king who everyone accepts without question, it's cheap writing and completely contradicts everything he set up.  

6 hours ago, prettylongclaw said:

I could literally write down every single foreshadowing of Jon and Sansa from the show and also the ones pointing out that Sansa will be the final queen

Like I said before this is a book thread, there's a separate page for theories and speculations about show. That being said feel free to tell me the Jon/Sansa foreshadowing in the books.

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