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Arya Greyjoy

Who will Sansa marry?

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6 hours ago, prettylongclaw said:

they will be free to be together in season 8

This is a book thread 

6 hours ago, prettylongclaw said:

Jon entire arc in the books and show was to learn about leadership and how to rule

I feel his arc is about the song whilst Sansa's is all about the politics, I also really don't want George to go down a lotr route with a prophesied king who everyone accepts without question, it's cheap writing and completely contradicts everything he set up.  

6 hours ago, prettylongclaw said:

I could literally write down every single foreshadowing of Jon and Sansa from the show and also the ones pointing out that Sansa will be the final queen

Like I said before this is a book thread, there's a separate page for theories and speculations about show. That being said feel free to tell me the Jon/Sansa foreshadowing in the books.

Edited by Pikachu101

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13 hours ago, Clegane'sPup said:

I quite agree. For fun and for free let us individuals hear what martin said waaaaaaaaaaaay back in 2012

I don't follow SSM's (as I've said before), but I watched this, just for you :). GRRM is talking about 'SanSan fansites', with (in his view) members who personally find the Hound sexy, and actively want a Sandor/Sansa marriage/affair to happen.

None of this is me. I remember the Hound's description pretty well, and I said a few posts back that both sides would have to change a lot before a relationship could work. That said, I think I might start avoiding the abbreviation 'SanSan' totally if it means being treated as part of a collective I know nothing about.

SSM's are a great opportunity for mischief and misdirection - something to entertain the fans while they wait, that's all. GRRM might be genuinely surprised that Theon has his admirers (isn't pity supposed to be death to desire, in his view?) - but he knows damn well what he wrote for Sandor and Jaime. And Jaime is overtly a super attractive individual. It's all nonsense.

(There is still a lot to be said on the nature of love in asoiaf, admittedly.)

Edited by Springwatch
spelling

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3 hours ago, Pikachu101 said:

This is a book thread 

I feel his arc is about the song whilst Sansa's is all about the politics, I also really don't want George to go down a lotr route with a prophesied king who everyone accepts without question, it's cheap writing and completely contradicts everything he set up.  

Like I said before this is a book thread, there's a separate page for theories and speculations about show. That being said feel free to tell me the Jon/Sansa foreshadowing in the books.

The books also have foreshadow of their marriage, again since book 1. 

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14 hours ago, Pikachu101 said:

Thank you! :bowdown:

Remember the good old days when people shipped Jon with women he wasn't related to? 

That tends to happen when two of the houses Jon supposedly belongs to (Stark and Targaryen if R+L=J) have a history of incest. 

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4 hours ago, prettylongclaw said:

The books also have foreshadow of their marriage, again since book 1. 

I'm genuinely curious because Jonsa didn't become a thing until the show made it clear Harry, Aegon, and Val aren't in the picture so could you elaborate please.

4 hours ago, Angel Eyes said:

That tends to happen when two of the houses Jon supposedly belongs to (Stark and Targaryen if R+L=J) have a history of incest

The Targaryens are inbred freaks yes but Jon wasn't raised to see that as natural or normal, and even if they find out they're actually cousins that doesn't change the fact that Jon and Sansa will still see each other as siblings regardless. 

4 hours ago, Valyrian Lance said:

The better question is whether any of her children will be seen as legitimate once/if Tyrion shows back up.

The marriage was never consummated so it can be annulled 

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On 7/11/2018 at 3:45 AM, The Weirwoods Eyes said:

Flicking the V; I'm British.

Oye, wait a minute.  You got dat palm facing you or away. :o

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11 hours ago, Springwatch said:

I don't follow SSM's (as I've said before), but I watched this, just for you :). GRRM is talking about 'SanSan fansites',

The link was not an SSM. It was a a blurb of an interview back in 2012.

 

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11 hours ago, prettylongclaw said:

The books also have foreshadow of their marriage, again since book 1. 

I think @Pikachu101 is hoping you could provide text from the books that shows this foreshadowing, or at the very least a general moment in the books that you believe foreshadowed a marriage. 

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4 hours ago, Ralphis Baratheon said:

I think @Pikachu101 is hoping you could provide text from the books that shows this foreshadowing, or at the very least a general moment in the books that you believe foreshadowed a marriage. 

 Sansa first love in the books was Waymar Royce, he was the youngest son of Lord Yohn Royce and was a ranger at the Nights Watch, when he visited Winterfell Sansa fell madly in love with him at first sight and wanted marry and have his babies. Waymar Royce is described to be tall, slender and graceful, dark haired and having beautiful grey eyes. Thats exactly how Jon Snow is described in the books, the only difference is that when Sansa fell in love with Waymar he was a young men of 19 and Jon at the time was just a boy of 14, by the time Sansa meet Jon again in the books he will be 18 or 19 and will look a lot like Waymar Royce, her first love. The first time I read this I just remember thinking, he looks just like Jon Snow, thats weird!!!

 

He was a handsome youth of eighteen, grey-eyed and graceful and slender as a knife. Mounted on his huge black destrier, the knight towered above Will and Gared on their smaller garrons. He wore black leather boots, black woolen pants, black moleskin gloves, and a fine supple coat of gleaming black ringmail over layers of black wool and boiled leather. - A Game of Thrones Prologue

Jon's eyes were a grey so dark they seemed almost black, but there was little they did not see. He was of an age with Robb, but they did not look alike. Jon was slender where Robb was muscular, dark where Robb was fair, graceful and quick where his half brother was strong and fast. - A Game of Thrones Bran I

 

 

After this one, I started looking for more foreshadows:

 

 

He would father no sons who might someday contest with Catelyn's own grandchildren for Winterfell. (AGOT Catelyn II).

              Lady Catelyn celebrating Jon Snow going to the wall. I am pretty sure Jon Snow sons will be her grandchildren. Again, the first time I read this quote, it just screamed foreshadow for me.

 

“You,” Ned said, kissing her lightly on the brow, “will marry a king and rule his castle, and your sons will be knights and princes and lords and, yes, perhaps even a High Septon.” Arya screwed up her face. "No," she said, "that's Sansa." - Arya, AGoT

 

              This one is  actually pretty straight foward. 

 

“Sweet one,” her father said gently, “listen to me. When you’re old enough, I will make you a match with a high lord who’s worthy of you, someone brave and gentle and strong. This match with Joffrey was a terrible mistake. That boy is no Prince Aemon, you must believe me.” - Sansa, AGoT

 

She shouted for Ser Dontos, for her brothers, for her dead father and her dead wolf, for gallant Ser Loras who had given her a red rose once, but none of them came. She called for the heroes from the songs, for Florian and Ser Ryam Redwyne and Prince Aemon the Dragonknight, but no one heard. (SANSA, ACOK) 

 

They were not little boys when they fought, but knights and mighty heroes. “I’m Prince Aemon the Dragonknight,” Jon would call out, and Robb would shout back, “Well, I’m Florian the Fool.” Or Robb would say, “I’m the Young Dragon,” and Jon would reply, “I’m Ser Ryam Redwyne.” (JON, ASOS)

 

             Notice how Sansa's heros match with with the ones Jon's used to pretend to be as a child. 

 

 

“I’ve never lain with any woman but Cersei. In my own way, I’ve been truer than your Ned ever was. Poor old dead Ned. So who has shit for honor now, I ask you? What was the name of that bastard he fathered?”

Catelyn took a step backwards. “Brienne.”

“No, that wasn’t it.” Jaime Lannister upended the flagon. A trickled ran down onto his face, bright as blood. “Snow, that was the one. Such a white name … like the pretty cloaks they give us in the Kingsguard when we swear our pretty oaths.”

A Clash of Kings - Catelyn VII

When she crawled out of bed, long moments later, she was alone. She found his cloak on the floor, twisted up tight, the white wool stained with blood and fire. The sky outside was darker by then, with only a few pale green ghosts dancing against the stars. A chill wind was blowing, banging the shutters. Sansa was cold. She shook out the torn cloak and huddled beneath it on the floor, shivering. 

A Clash of Kings - Sansa VII

 

              Sansa cloaked herself with a cloak stained in "Fire and Blood"

 

“Frog-faced Lord Slynt sat at the end of the council table wearing a black velvet doublet and a shiny cloth-of-gold cape, nodding with approval every time the king pronounced a sentence. Sansa stared hard at his ugly face, remembering how he had thrown down her father for Ser Ilyn to behead, wishing she could hurt him, wishing that some hero would throw him down and cut off his head. But a voice inside her whispered, There are no heroes…” - Sansa ACoK

—-

“I will not hang him,” said Jon. “Bring him here.” “Oh, Seven save us,” he heard Bowen Marsh cry out. The smile that Lord Janos Slynt smiled then had all the sweetness of rancid butter. Until Jon said, “Edd, fetch me a block,” and unsheathed Longclaw.” Jon - ASoS

 

In Sansa’s dreams, her children looked just like the brothers she had lost. Sometimes there was even a girl who looked like Arya.” - Sansa ASoS

             Arya is the only sibling that looks like Jon Snow

 

 

When Sansa was in the Vale and her aunt Lysa was trying to push the idea of her marrying her son, the sick Robin Arryn, of course she knows that Lysa doesnt care about her, and only wants Winterfell. In the end of that chapter, where she is receiving a marriage proposal to marry her COUSIN, she laments:

 

"Its not me she wants, its my claim, No one will ever marry me for love" (Sansa, ASOS)

 

the very next chapter of the book? JON. Again, thats not a coincidence, George does this, he said that he takes a lot of planning and caring about the way he writes and structures his books. 

 

Now, we also have foreshadow of Sansa being Queen, which now I am pretty sure it will happen. Sansa grew up in the North, lived in Kings Landing and The Vale, spent years observing the greatest players make their moves on the game Of Thrones, she was personaly educated about politics by Littlefinger himself. George is grooming her to be the future Queen. 

 

"I will remember, Your Grace," said Sansa, though she had always heard that love was a surer route to the people's loyalty than fear. If I am ever a queen, I'll make them love me. (ACOK Sansa VI)

 

It's not coincidence that in her next chapter, also set during the Battle of the Blackwater, Sansa gives a speech to calm everyone in the room once Cersei left and it seems like the battle is lost. She is literally acting like the Queen doing Cersei's duty. 

 

Tyrion also thinks  what great queen Sansa would be, if Joffrey had the sense to treat her nicely. 

 

“ She is good at this, he thought, as he watched her tell Lord Gyles that his cough was sounding better, compliment Elinor Tyrell on her gown, and question Jalabhar Xho about wedding customs in the Summer Isles. His cousin Ser Lancel had been brought down by Ser Kevan, the first time he’d left his sickbed since the battle. He looks ghastly. Lancel’s hair had turned white and brittle, and he was thin as a stick. Without his father beside him holding him up, he would surely have collapsed. Yet when Sansa praised his valor and said how good it was to see him getting strong again, both Lancel and Ser Kevan beamed. She would have made Joffrey a good queen and a better wife if he’d had the sense to love her". (Tyrion ASOS)

 

I do believe George kept his original idea of having Jon Snow marrying a Stark girl. Jon as Kking and Sansa as Queen looks very good in my books. 

Edited by prettylongclaw

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8 hours ago, Clegane'sPup said:

Oye, wait a minute.  You got dat palm facing you or away. :o

That'd be facing me. Facing away would not be called flickin the V. That would be a Victory sign. 

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15 hours ago, prettylongclaw said:

 Sansa first love in the books was Waymar Royce...

That's an excellent quote collection; thanks for sharing.

What I think is that this probably isn't the happy-ever-after betrothal, but it could happen as a bad betrothal. (Personally I think it's 'bad' because I'm still looking for auspicious weddings, and Jon + Sansa would be winter on both sides, which is not a good sign.)

The way it could happen is that Jon could be subject to a lot of winter spirit influence in his near-death experience. He might wake up disorientated and in full ice dragon mode, driven to claim Winterfell and the crown of winter. (What is dead can never die, but rises harder and stronger.)

In that case, marrying Sansa (like a Targ) would strengthen his claim and cut out any rivals.

(The Tyrion-Sansa marriage had better be more than a paper shield if this happens!)

20 hours ago, Clegane'sPup said:

The link was not an SSM. It was a a blurb of an interview back in 2012.

I'll take your word for it.

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3 hours ago, Springwatch said:

I'll take your word for it.

SSM translates to So Spoke Martin. There is a place connected to this site that has SSM's

http://www.westeros.org/Citadel/SSM/

I do in real life try to help my fellow individuals.:grouphug:  Sometimes the links work and sometimes they don't.

 

Edited by Clegane'sPup

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My main problem with Jon/Sansa is that it makes 0 sense for either of them, would anyone here decide they're suddenly sexually attracted to their sibling if someone tells them you're actually cousins? Also how would Sansa benefit from marrying her bastard brother who btw is a member of the Night's Watch? 

Also I've seen a lot of Jonsa shippers on tumblr giving Jon Robb's personality and relationship with Sansa to make this ship work. 

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On 7/13/2018 at 11:57 PM, Clegane'sPup said:

SSM translates to So Spoke Martin. There is a place connected to this site that has SSM's

http://www.westeros.org/Citadel/SSM/

I do in real life try to help my fellow individuals.:grouphug:  Sometimes the links work and sometimes they don't.

I don't doubt you at all :) - it's the SSM's and sundry other communications by the author that I have no faith in. Never have.

17 hours ago, Pikachu101 said:

My main problem with Jon/Sansa is that it makes 0 sense for either of them, would anyone here decide they're suddenly sexually attracted to their sibling if someone tells them you're actually cousins? Also how would Sansa benefit from marrying her bastard brother who btw is a member of the Night's Watch? 

Also I've seen a lot of Jonsa shippers on tumblr giving Jon Robb's personality and relationship with Sansa to make this ship work. 

There's enough possible foreshadowing to make Jon/Sansa worth considering, at least.

Romantic love and/or attraction between them doesn't really exist at the moment, but could be written in if the author wants it. But if the driving force is Sansa's claim and kingsblood, a love match isn't really necessary. A dynastic match might be enough for Bad!Jon (Aegon the Conqueror didn't really love his first queen either).

[Aside, but do we know for sure that the Promised Prince is the hero of Fire? This one is half ice, half fire - maybe either side can recruit him. And so far, this important playing piece has been held by the Ice side all the way.]

Sansa has grown tired of her claim and the idea of being a queen, but events might force her hand. More than that, she has a history of being dazzled, charmed, swept away by the feeling of love. (It's interesting that she was dazzled by Joff and Loras when both were wearing blue, breaking the habit of house colours. Wearing blue, the colour of ice (the Wall is blue crystal) - might foreshadow an ice prince.)

Inspiring love is her own gift too (the gift of queens - 'I will make them love me'), but she isn't very sophisticated yet; she could fall victim to romance once more. If she does, I think she will break through the dazzle eventually, as she has before.

Ultimately, I think fairy tales are there to be torn down, not fulfilled. Raising up a King and Queen of Winter sounds very bad for humanity.

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2 hours ago, Springwatch said:

but could be written in if the author wants it

Not a fan of those, it would feel way too forced because Jon and Sansa are normal human beings who don't have sexual attraction for people raised as their sibling. 

2 hours ago, Springwatch said:

But if the driving force is Sansa's claim and kingsblood, a love match isn't really necessary. A dynastic match might be enough for Bad!Jon

The driving force for any marriage Sansa enters would be to secure her claim to Winterfell, which is why she's marrying Harry and why I think she might also be with Aegon, love has nothing to do with it. 

I don't see what this has to do with Jon though, he's a bastard with nothing to give. 

2 hours ago, Springwatch said:

Sansa has grown tired of her claim and the idea of being a queen

I don't see that, in her TWoW chapter she seems to be completely on board with the chance to get back Winterfell through Harry

2 hours ago, Springwatch said:

More than that, she has a history of being dazzled, charmed, swept away by the feeling of love

Seems to me she's the one whose doing the dazzling with Harry ;)

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23 minutes ago, Lee-Sensei said:

Joffrey's corpse. He was her one true love.

I didn't know Sansa was Reek.

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On 7/15/2018 at 6:48 PM, Pikachu101 said:

...

The driving force for any marriage Sansa enters would be to secure her claim to Winterfell, which is why she's marrying Harry and why I think she might also be with Aegon, love has nothing to do with it. 

Agree totally. Sansa Stark is the key to the north, as Tywin (I think) said.

On 7/15/2018 at 6:48 PM, Pikachu101 said:

I don't see what this has to do with Jon though, he's a bastard with nothing to give. 

If Sansa is down south playing the game of thrones, this would be a deciding factor. If she goes north, living in full-on winter and an invasion of Others, a whole new set of factors come into play.

On 7/15/2018 at 6:48 PM, Pikachu101 said:

I don't see that, in her TWoW chapter she seems to be completely on board with the chance to get back Winterfell through Harry

She wants to go home. Not to be a queen.

On 7/15/2018 at 6:48 PM, Pikachu101 said:

Seems to me she's the one whose doing the dazzling with Harry ;)

She did.

On 7/15/2018 at 8:51 PM, Lee-Sensei said:

Joffrey's corpse. He was her one true love.

I just hope Joff is definitely and finally dead. He's one character I don't want to see in the afterlife.

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