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U.S. Politics: Hey! Teachers! Leave Them Kids Alone

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8 minutes ago, sperry said:

 

I agree. We are 6 years removed from a very civil candidate winning in a landslide. Trump was able to emerge victorious because he was fighting against collectively the worst group of candidates imaginable.

 

1 minute ago, sperry said:

This thread is exhibit A about the insanity of online political discussion.

How effective was civility for the GOP and then for the dems?

Civility in the face of bigotry, disrespect (lying included), and rank aggression is tilting at windmills.

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Political demonstrations should be to achieve policy or political goals.  I am opposed to kicking Trump admin people out of restaurants or openly harassing them at their homes because I do not think those will achieve anything good.  The question is not whether they "deserve" it, but whether such a political push will help in defeating Trump and his enablers. 

Given how eagerly SHS has been embracing this story, it seems pretty obvious that Trump thinks these "culture wars" are a winner for him.  And it's easy to see why the media covering the Red Hen is better for Republicans than talking about children in cages, companies moving overseas and health care costs skyrocketing.

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Just now, Vetrani Weekić said:

 

How effective was civility for the GOP and then for the dems?

Civility in the face of bigotry, disrespect (lying included), and rank aggression is tilting at windmills.

 

It would have been plenty effective with a legitimate candidate, just like it was in 2012.

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7 minutes ago, chiKanery et al. said:

Um, no. Most cable news shows outside of Fox are using their A and B blocks to cover what’s happening at the border.  Non-cable news shows are using either block to do the same. The Red Hen story is largely being covered in one of the later blocks, and only as a part of a broader segment.

The number one story on the today show this morning was worshipful / triumphant clips of the fuhrer at his rally yesterday.

Edited by lokisnow

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1 minute ago, sperry said:

 

It would have been plenty effective with a legitimate candidate, just like it was in 2012.

What examples of civility in the face of Trumpism have been even moderately effective thus far?

Your need and classification of a 'legitimate' candidate is A) not supported by any facts and B ) arbitrary as to who would be 'legitimate'

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19 minutes ago, sperry said:

 

I agree. We are 6 years removed from a very civil candidate winning in a landslide. Trump was able to emerge victorious because he was fighting against collectively the worst group of candidates imaginable.

What makes you say six years? It could easily happen in two, especially if Trump is dumb enough to start a trade war with half the world.

Also, I wouldn’t say that the problem was that the Republican primary candidates were bad, there were just too many of them. Trump jumped to the head of the polls after his comments about Mexicans and was slowly able to bleed the rest of the field. If there had been five candidates to start with instead of seventeen, Trump would not have won, or even come close really.

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5 minutes ago, sperry said:

 

It would have been plenty effective with a legitimate candidate, just like it was in 2012.

Ah yes, legitimate candidates have penises, it is known.

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Just now, chiKanery et al. said:

What makes you say six years? It could easily happen in two, especially if Trump is dumb enough to start a trade war with half the world.

Also, I wouldn’t say that the problem was that the Republican primary candidates were bad, there were just too many of them. Trump jumped to the head of the polls after his comments about Mexicans and was slowly able to bleed the rest of the field. If there had been five candidates to start with instead of seventeen, Trump would not have won, or even come close really.

I said we are six years removed, i.e. Barack Obama won in 2012 by a landslide. But the candidates were terrible. The Republic primary candidates were terrible; an uncharismatic, uninspiring, unimpressive lot.

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24 minutes ago, JEORDHl said:

Yeah, ok.

Put down the Art of War for a second. Putting aside that I think these calls to civility are some kind of unconscious, white siege mentality type reaction-- Trump is a boardroom gangster that I suspect imagines he's some kind of 'alpha male' or some shit and pretty much everything he does is a dare designed to invoke challenge. I can't imagine he looks on civility with anything less than disdain.

If the left isn't willing to roll up their sleeves and engage, if they're going to leave the real scrapping for the citizens who've had enough, they can kiss their asses goodbye as far as I can see because they're no longer fighting the good fight-- it's just control and status quo.

Whoever said not to engage? You can engage Trump without sinking to his level, and if fact you should try to draw a stark contrast with him while having your political allies do the dirty work of mocking and belittling him.

Also, you’re not being civil to appeal to Trump. That’s just silly. There’s no point in debating him in the traditional fashion. You have to play to the crowd.  

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12 hours ago, JEORDHl said:

 

Maybe. But then you got Pelosi counter arguing with beautiful American dream or some shit, wait-- here:

"In the crucial months ahead, we must strive to make America beautiful again. Trump’s daily lack of civility has provoked responses that are predictable but unacceptable. As we go forward, we must conduct elections in a way that achieves unity from sea to shining sea."

Like, are you fucking kidding me? Thus the fainting goat bares its throat.

---

If as you say getting tactical, of the two stances proposed yeah, Maxine's might not win. Pelosi's, though... would definitely lose.

 

That anyone can equate the kidnapping of children and other blatantly treasonous and sadistic nazi acts with 'lack of civility' is beyond the pale. Civility and respectability politics has gotten the party literally nowhere other than ever further out of touch and behind.  Cut her loose.

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9 minutes ago, chiKanery et al. said:

Whoever said not to engage? You can engage Trump without sinking to his level, and if fact you should try to draw a stark contrast with him while having your political allies do the dirty work of mocking and belittling him.

Also, you’re not being civil to appeal to Trump. That’s just silly. There’s no point in debating him in the traditional fashion. You have to play to the crowd.  

Amongst the leadership of the left, who precisely is sinking to his level? I personally didn't parse Maxine's comments as inciting 'war,' but this moderate knee-jerk reaction to her and others expressing themselves is equal parts hilarious, infuriating, sad... and in the short term, doomed.

I do agree however that Trump's biggest weakness is thinking the US economy is so strong it can take all comers. 

Edited by JEORDHl

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1 hour ago, Bonnot OG said:

<snip>

Well said.  There's nothing to gain walking on eggshells around these monsters.  And anyone more worried about being civil than pointing out the atrocities, well, you're not fucking helping.  It's like the "stop calling the racists 'racists'" crowd.  It's a luxury.

Edited by larrytheimp

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4 minutes ago, Zorral said:

That anyone can equate the kidnapping of children and other blatantly treasonous and sadistic nazi acts with 'lack of civility' is beyond the pale. Civility and respectability politics has gotten the party literally nowhere other than ever further out of touch and behind.  Cut her loose.

Yup. Pelosi has to go. Schumer too, imo. 

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3 hours ago, lokisnow said:

@kal if the whole moralities values thing is right and republicans don’t care about hypocrisy as a value how come the right wingers on my Facebook are outraged and vocal by “liberal hypocrites” with the Sarah sanders thing, (almost as much as the human beings on my Facebook were outraged by family separations)?

 

i think it’s actually a manifestation of their perceived loss of privilege, but they’re just using the hypocrite word as cover

Because Republicans know that this will bother liberals, and attacking liberals on their hypocrisy hits home hard. They don't care about it as a value; they care about it because they can use it as a weapon against the other tribe

This has been going on for a while now - conservatives often attack liberals with the hypocrisy. When liberals attack back, it doesn't matter in the least (in that vein). That's the important thing. 

Remember, conservatives here have been getting outraged about Sanders not getting food, about Warner saying something in jest, about democrats not voting on immigration reform that sucks, etc. The goal isn't a specific thing; the goal is to get them outraged, because they turn out when they're outraged, and getting them pissed off at the other side is the best way to drive that base out. 

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1 hour ago, sperry said:

Civility is important so that the replacement for Trump doesn't become some ultra left-wing lunatic. People get caught up in the echo-chamber that is politics on social media and the internet. Which is generally populated by a lot of mentally unwell people with very loud voices, and also is not representative of the population as a whole. 

60 million people in this country voted for a white supremacist. That's quite a lot of people. And while not the majority, thanks to some shit political / voting system we have, that will continue to be an issue given said system and given how SCOTUS is filled with white supremacist lap dogs and Repub scum that will let clear voter suppression go on.

And it's hilarious how the asinine false equivlances continue to come from the center, who sit back and do nothing as kids are thrown into concentration camps, tortured, and drugged. 

But hey, be civil! 

Remind yourself that as they eventually come for you and start pulling your finger nails out just out of pure paranioa wondering if you're apart of some cell like resistance group looking to fight them. 

Moderates are utterly useless when it comes to actual progress and fighting fascists. 

Edited by Bonnot OG

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1 hour ago, chiKanery et al. said:

Civility is needed, more importantly, to push back against Trumpism. Trump wants to drag us into the mud because that’s where he has the advantage, and you never fight someone on their preferred terrain. Furthermore, civility is probably the only way to undo some of the damage that Trump has done. If the left gets as nasty as Trump, our current state of affairs will not change.

Obama was about as civil as one can possibly hope for. 

Your argument is invalid. 

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26 minutes ago, chiKanery et al. said:

Whoever said not to engage? You can engage Trump without sinking to his level, and if fact you should try to draw a stark contrast with him while having your political allies do the dirty work of mocking and belittling him.

Also, you’re not being civil to appeal to Trump. That’s just silly. There’s no point in debating him in the traditional fashion. You have to play to the crowd.  

Honestly, without obama providing leadership on his miraculous methods on how to engage trump on the high road without the high road reverting to its traditional traffic of exclusively an enclave of tittering by know-nothing-wealth-and-privileged-elites it is natural that everyone else to do what comes natural which is street fighting.

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3 minutes ago, كالدب said:

Because Republicans know that this will bother liberals, and attacking liberals on their hypocrisy hits home hard. They don't care about it as a value; they care about it because they can use it as a weapon against the other tribe

This has been going on for a while now - conservatives often attack liberals with the hypocrisy. When liberals attack back, it doesn't matter in the least (in that vein). That's the important thing. 

Remember, conservatives here have been getting outraged about Sanders not getting food, about Warner saying something in jest, about democrats not voting on immigration reform that sucks, etc. The goal isn't a specific thing; the goal is to get them outraged, because they turn out when they're outraged, and getting them pissed off at the other side is the best way to drive that base out. 

I'm curious about the bolded bit, Kal. Drive the left base out, you mean? That being beneficial because... it then drives the right base out?

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Yeah who the fuck out there is going "well, I was going to vote for the Democrat, but a few of them were so uncivil.  I guess I'll vote for Trump instead".

This is literally lolsob worthy mental gymnastics.  Seriously, @sperry, what voter is going to vote for Trump because of 'civility' as a concern?  

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6 minutes ago, كالدب said:

Because Republicans know that this will bother liberals, and attacking liberals on their hypocrisy hits home hard. They don't care about it as a value; they care about it because they can use it as a weapon against the other tribe

This has been going on for a while now - conservatives often attack liberals with the hypocrisy. When liberals attack back, it doesn't matter in the least (in that vein). That's the important thing. 

Remember, conservatives here have been getting outraged about Sanders not getting food, about Warner saying something in jest, about democrats not voting on immigration reform that sucks, etc. The goal isn't a specific thing; the goal is to get them outraged, because they turn out when they're outraged, and getting them pissed off at the other side is the best way to drive that base out. 

So one of my instincts on fighting back is to use sanctity violations as a weapon, when republicans are being despicable frame them as pissing on the Bible sort of thing. would that be the equivalent reversal?

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