This confuses me

[Giant Ice Spider]

Isn't it weird there are only seven Kingsguard?

I understand they're based off Charlemagne's 12 paladins, but the paladins were never bodyguards. So it still makes no sense.

Ideally, you want more than seven bodyguards. Seven isn't enough, to say, escort a large royal party travelling to Location X. You end up relying on either gold cloaks (who are often corrupt), or the household guards of your spouse or extended family (who don't necessarily have your best interests at heart).

I also get the kings have household knights, but you never see them put on guard duty, so I wonder how trustworthy they are. Ser Tallad, for instance, doesn't seem to have any responsibilities that we know of. Maybe he has to guard a gate, but the point is that at no point is entrusted the care of any royal.

Maybe someone can explain this. I'm confused as to why you wouldn't make the Kingsgaurd at least seventy-seven strong.

[The Commentator]

The Red Keep is always guarded.  I say these regular palace guards can take care of most threats to the royal family.  The Kingsguard is the closest and the most trusted.  Widen the circle and you risk bringing in people with questionable loyalties to the royal family.  A small, well-chosen and dedicated group is safer.

One more thing.  It can also be seen as the royal family's gesture to show honor to the faith of the seven.  Seven warriors to guard Aegon.  The faith of seven has taken the royal family under its wings and protects them.  That sort of thing.

[Giant Ice Spider]

1 hour ago, Widowmaker 811 said:

The Red Keep is always guarded.  I say these regular palace guards can take care of most threats to the royal family.  The Kingsguard is the closest and the most trusted.  Widen the circle and you risk bringing in people with questionable loyalties to the royal family.  A small, well-chosen and dedicated group is safer.

One more thing.  It can also be seen as the royal family's gesture to show honor to the faith of the seven.  Seven warriors to guard Aegon.  The faith of seven has taken the royal family under its wings and protects them.  That sort of thing.

You're already widening the circle to random nobodies by having gold cloaks guard the Red Keep. These guys are supposed to be as bad as the criminals they're meant to stop and yet they guard the royal castle?

r

[The Commentator]

2 minutes ago, Giant Ice Spider said:

You're already widening the circle to random nobodies by having gold cloaks guard the Red Keep. These guys are supposed to be as bad as the criminals they're meant to stop and yet they guard the royal castle?

r

Maybe the gold cloaks were not always corrupt.

[Giant Ice Spider]

2 minutes ago, Widowmaker 811 said:

Maybe the gold cloaks were not always corrupt.

Well they are now. And if someone like LF or Varys decides to have KL attacked, not only would bribing the gold cloaks get you KL, it would, more importantly, get you the Red Keep.

[Angel Eyes]

3 hours ago, Widowmaker 811 said:

The Red Keep is always guarded.  I say these regular palace guards can take care of most threats to the royal family.  The Kingsguard is the closest and the most trusted.  Widen the circle and you risk bringing in people with questionable loyalties to the royal family.  A small, well-chosen and dedicated group is safer.

One more thing.  It can also be seen as the royal family's gesture to show honor to the faith of the seven.  Seven warriors to guard Aegon.  The faith of seven has taken the royal family under its wings and protects them.  That sort of thing.

I say there should be criteria, i.e. having both loyalty and skill at arms, and courage. Instead, we got Boros Blount, a man with none of these traits.

[Kandrax]

2 hours ago, Angel Eyes said:

Boros Blount, a man with none of these traits.

Maybe, he had all of this before becoming Kingsguard.

[Yournamehere]

At the start of ASOIAF, who is not a kingsguard that would/could be and is a better option than some of the seven wearing the white cloak? I understand a couple of the KG don't exactly espouse all the qualities on thinks of. I'm not neccesarily asking for a list of better swords (Cleganes, Ser Loras etc.) but rather who are good fits logistically too.

[White Ravens]

8 hours ago, Giant Ice Spider said:

Isn't it weird there are only seven Kingsguard?

I understand they're based off Charlemagne's 12 paladins, but the paladins were never bodyguards. So it still makes no sense.

Ideally, you want more than seven bodyguards. Seven isn't enough, to say, escort a large royal party travelling to Location X. You end up relying on either gold cloaks (who are often corrupt), or the household guards of your spouse or extended family (who don't necessarily have your best interests at heart).

I also get the kings have household knights, but you never see them put on guard duty, so I wonder how trustworthy they are. Ser Tallad, for instance, doesn't seem to have any responsibilities that we know of. Maybe he has to guard a gate, but the point is that at no point is entrusted the care of any royal.

Maybe someone can explain this. I'm confused as to why you wouldn't make the Kingsgaurd at least seventy-seven strong.

They are the King's bodyguards with a well established origin.  What is so confusing about that?  

The Iron throne has no shortage of other guards and warrior to call upon when circumstances demand. 

They may not currently be appointed and utilised the way Queen Visenya intended when she created them but their creation and the reasons they exist are pretty clear. 

 

[Giant Ice Spider]

6 hours ago, White Ravens said:

They are the King's bodyguards with a well established origin.  What is so confusing about that?  

The Iron throne has no shortage of other guards and warrior to call upon when circumstances demand. 

They may not currently be appointed and utilised the way Queen Visenya intended when she created them but their creation and the reasons they exist are pretty clear. 

 

I still don't see what the advantage is to limiting yourself to only seven.

[The Commentator]

6 hours ago, Giant Ice Spider said:

I still don't see what the advantage is to limiting yourself to only seven.

It's just a social gesture.  The Targaryens making a show of honoring the Seven.  It's like Visenya saying, "Hey look, 7 men of great renown are watching over the Targaryen family as the 7 watch over the people."  She's saying, we took your ways and gave in where we could.  

[Giant Ice Spider]

16 hours ago, Widowmaker 811 said:

It's just a social gesture.  The Targaryens making a show of honoring the Seven.  It's like Visenya saying, "Hey look, 7 men of great renown are watching over the Targaryen family as the 7 watch over the people."  She's saying, we took your ways and gave in where we could.  

Why not seventy-seven? Or that's too many, forty-nine (that is, 7^2)?

[The hairy bear]

On 6/26/2018 at 7:02 PM, Giant Ice Spider said:

Isn't it weird there are only seven Kingsguard?

I understand they're based off Charlemagne's 12 paladins, but the paladins were never bodyguards. So it still makes no sense.

I had never seen anyone suggesting the idea that the kingsguard is based in Charlemagne's paladins. Certainly not George.

But if there's any obvious historical reference here, that would be Alexander the Great's somatophylakes. They were his elite bodyguards, and they were seven men.

ETA:

1 hour ago, Giant Ice Spider said:

Why not seventy-seven? Or that's too many, forty-nine (that is, 7^2)?

Because the point of the kingsguard is not only protecting the king. Is giving prestige to the king by having him protected by famous knights and sons from prestigious noble houses.

Do not think of the kingsguard as of being the king's only bodyguards. Think of them as being the elite body of the king's corps of bodyguards formed of hundreds of men.

[Giant Ice Spider]

27 minutes ago, The hairy bear said:

I had never seen anyone suggesting the idea that the kingsguard is based in Charlemagne's paladins. Certainly not George.

But if there's any obvious historical reference here, that would be Alexander the Great's somatophylakes. They were his elite bodyguards, and they were seven men.

ETA:

Because the point of the kingsguard is not only protecting the king. Is giving prestige to the king by having him protected by famous knights and sons from prestigious noble houses.

Do not think of the kingsguard as of being the king's only bodyguards. Think of them as being the elite body of the king's corps of bodyguards formed of hundreds of men.

I was not aware of the somatophylakes. I had just guessed that Charlemagne's paladins were the inspiration.

You say they're just the elite corps, but we don't see any other than the Kingsguard guarding the king, except that one time when Jaime holds a Kingsguard meeting. It seems to me that they're the ONLY bodyguards the king has.

[Lollygag]

I have no idea if this was intentional or not, but it looks like the KG was designed not as just protectors of the king and his interests, but also as an informal balance of powers. The KG wears pure snow-white cloaks and are supposed to be some of the most honorable and best fighters in the land. It glams up the King, but it also indirectly puts limits on what the king would hopefully ask of the KG.

The idea came from Cersei. We see when she gets in power that she starts asking some very unpleasant things from the KG. Tywin fumes over Barristan’s dismissal as Tywin understands the prestige he grants to a king. When Tyrion asks Cersei whose idea it was to release Barristan, she says it was Joff because he wanted someone to blame for Robert’s death. Except we just saw Tyrion give his sympathies to Joff on the loss of his father and Joff’s response was:

"What loss?"

"Your royal father? A large fierce man with a black beard; you'll recall him if you try. He was king before you."

"Oh, him. Yes, it was very sad, a boar killed him."

So Cersei was behind Barristan’s dismissal or at least she was fully on board with the idea enough that she felt she had to throw Joff under the bus. I can’t imagine Barristan complying with orders to punch Sansa or the other things Cersei asks of her KG without breaking at some point. Thus, the honorable KG is maybe supposed to function as a check (hopefully) to a monarch’s less honorable impulses. We’re clearly supposed to compare/contrast the KG and the NW. The NW has lost its way. I suspect the KG has too. In the passage below, it was Jaime who was the better man in the end, not Gerold Hightower and perhaps there's something here about the lost purpose of the KG. The name Kingsguard can go both ways: it can mean guardians of the king, but one also guards who we would also keep in line. Also, I notice that it's not King's Guard as in the possessive. That might be significant. Really curious to see the wording on the KG oath and if it parallels the NW oath.

 

ACOK Catelyn VII

"The pyromancers roasted Lord Rickard slowly, banking and fanning that fire carefully to get a nice even heat. His cloak caught first, and then his surcoat, and soon he wore nothing but metal and ashes. Next he would start to cook, Aerys promised . . . unless his son could free him. Brandon tried, but the more he struggled, the tighter the cord constricted around his throat. In the end he strangled himself.

"As for Lord Rickard, the steel of his breastplate turned cherry-red before the end, and his gold melted off his spurs and dripped down into the fire. I stood at the foot of the Iron Throne in my white armor and white cloak, filling my head with thoughts of Cersei. After, Gerold Hightower himself took me aside and said to me, 'You swore a vow to guard the king, not to judge him.' That was the White Bull, loyal to the end and a better man than me, all agree."

 

Adding: Basically if the KG also kept their knight's oaths to honor as well as being KG, then the King couldn't ask the KG to do anything dishonorable without also asking the KG to break their vows thus keeping the king honest to a degree hopefully creating a more stable monarchy. This function wouldn't work if there were 77 KG, and I imagine it might make writing it more work and the KG less cool.

 

[The hairy bear]

9 minutes ago, Giant Ice Spider said:

You say they're just the elite corps, but we don't see any other than the Kingsguard guarding the king, except that one time when Jaime holds a Kingsguard meeting. It seems to me that they're the ONLY bodyguards the king has.

What I meant is that every soldier around the king is basically his bodyguard. At least one member of the kingsguard is supposed to be with the king at all times, but that doesn't mean that there can't be many more household guards around who are also expected to defend the king at all costs. Every spear-holder in the Red Keep essentially acts as the kings' bodyguard.

[Giant Ice Spider]

5 minutes ago, The hairy bear said:

What I meant is that every soldier around the king is basically his bodyguard. At least one member of the kingsguard is supposed to be with the king at all times, but that doesn't mean that there can't be many more household guards around who are also expected to defend the king at all costs. Every spear-holder in the Red Keep essentially acts as the kings' bodyguard.

True, but neither the Targs nor Robert had a proper household guard to call their own. Instead, they seem to co-opt the gold cloaks (who are corrupt), or the household guards of others (who may not have their best interests at heart).