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Chris Mormont

Melisandre and Glamor Davos?

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In Dance when Melisandre reveals Mance to Jon, she briefly explains the Glamor to him pointing out that Rattleshirt's bones help with the Glamor.  She goes on to say; "The strongest Glamors are built of such things.  A dead man's boots, a hank of hair a bag of fingerbones." 

Is she implying that she had a fake Davos at some point?

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Either that, or has or will have. 

It's certainly strange that she not only saved Davos' life but also kept Devan close to her, instead of defending his king like a good squire should.

However Davos says he lost his fingerbones around Blackwater, where Mel was absent, so idk how she can use his glamor

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Or maybe one of the other items is the object of the foreshadowing and the fingerbones are a red herring. Arya took Dareon's boots. 

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1 hour ago, Chris Mormont said:

In Dance when Melisandre reveals Mance to Jon, she briefly explains the Glamor to him pointing out that Rattleshirt's bones help with the Glamor.  She goes on to say; "The strongest Glamors are built of such things.  A dead man's boots, a hank of hair a bag of fingerbones." 

Is she implying that she had a fake Davos at some point?

This does seem like an obvious clue, right. My guess is part red herring, part recollection of someone that she knows.

 

As a red herring, who do we know with a dead man's boots or a hank of hair. Arya has Dareon's boots as @Lost Melnibonean mentioned. Dunk took a hank of hair from Rohanne Webber (later Lady Lannister). 

Edited by Valyrian Lance

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1 hour ago, Chris Mormont said:

In Dance when Melisandre reveals Mance to Jon, she briefly explains the Glamor to him pointing out that Rattleshirt's bones help with the Glamor.  She goes on to say; "The strongest Glamors are built of such things.  A dead man's boots, a hank of hair a bag of fingerbones." 

Is she implying that she had a fake Davos at some point?

 

19 minutes ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

Or maybe one of the other items is the object of the foreshadowing and the fingerbones are a red herring. Arya took Dareon's boots. 

That's it for me. The bag of fingerbones is the red herring, the pair of boots foreshadowing. Had a thread about it ages ago. 

ETA: 

 

Edited by kissdbyfire

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1 hour ago, Hugorfonics said:

Either that, or has or will have. 

It's certainly strange that she not only saved Davos' life but also kept Devan close to her, instead of defending his king like a good squire should.

However Davos says he lost his fingerbones around Blackwater, where Mel was absent, so idk how she can use his glamor

Yeah, this is my issue with the Davos glamor as well.  Mel would need the fingerbones, and I don't see how she would have gotten them.  They were either always around Davos's neck before the Blackwater, or lost at the Blackwater.   I'm also not sure I can see when and where it would be both viable and effective for her to use a glamored Davos- besides for his "friendship" with Salladhor Sahn he doesn't exactly open any doors that Mel couldn't open herself.

And I don't find it so strange that Mel both saves Davos's life and keeps Devan close to her.  I do think she likes Davos despite him planning on killing her, she sees how loyal he is to Stannis and how he gives him good advice, and when you consider the cesspool of bad people hanging around Stannis like Axell Florent and Clayton Suggs I could see why Mel likes Davos to stick around and would also want to help out his son.

5 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

 

That's it for me. The bag of fingerbones is the red herring, the pair of boots foreshadowing. Had a thread about it ages ago. 

ETA: 

 

This is a little more compelling to me but I'd still have to wonder why Arya would really need to do this...if she wanted to go to the Wall she could go to the Wall, and Dareon may actually bring danger if Sam ever wrote back to Jon about Dareon deserting that word would get around the Wall.

Overall though I have to agree that Melisandre specifically pointing out finger bones and a pair of boots is compelling...but to me more likely to be an easter egg to eagle-eyed readers rather than actually be borne out by anything.

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Maybe she's hinting that she's used her powers to retrieve the finger bones.  If so, she hasn't found a use for them yet.

But maybe her visions had given her some idea that there would be a fake Davos - which of course there was when Manderley faked the execution.

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This raises a lot of interesting questions.

We take for granted that cutting off fingers is a just punishment for smuggling because Davos tells us that he accepts it - he really did deserve it, he indicates, so the reader doesn't put a lot of thought into it. But what if Stannis was acting on Melisandre's suggestion when he chose to punish Davos in this way? What if Melisandre wanted those fingerbones for some reason?

We also accept Davos at his word when he says he was carrying his own fingerbones around in a little bag. But think about the moment of his punishment. Would a man whose fingers were cut off immediately gather up the severed fingertips so he could remove the flesh and keep them for a souvenir? Probably not. He was probably unconscious from the pain or, at least, putting himself in the care of a maester to stop the bleeding and bandage the injuries. Someone else probably collected the severed digits and . . . did they give them to the Silent Sisters to have the flesh removed? What if someone kept Davos's fingers, got some other fingerbones, and gave the imposters to Davos, telling him that they were his own bones? Much like Manderly using someone else's skull and hands to fool the Lannisters into thinking that Davos had been executed.

So Melisandre may have had Davos's fingerbones for some time. Maybe there is a Davos clone running around somewhere. Or maybe the POV we think of as Davos is someone else entirely, persuaded that he is Davos by some kind of dark magic spell cast by Melisandre.

In addition to touching the bag containing "his" fingerbones, Davos engages in another ritual for luck: there is a gargoyle outside the inn where he meets Salladhor Saan and he rubs its head for luck. This is reminiscent of the sailors on the Selaesori Qhoran rubbing the head of a dwarf for luck - Tyrion is linked to gargoyles in early scenes at Winterfell, iirc. But we see many people bring in severed dwarf heads, representing them as Tyrion's head, in hopes of collecting a reward from Cersei. So this may be a further example of fake, substituted bones and false identity.

Another possibility altogether: Davos really did die at the Blackwater. Whoever has been talking to us as the Davos POV is someone Melisandre either brought back to life, as Thoros does with Ser Beric, or is someone glamored and hypnotized (?) into believing that he is Davos. Maybe Salladhor Saan is in on the glamor strategy and both put the body out on that rock and then picked him up when he "awoke" an was ready to be rescued. A close analysis of the drowning and rebirth of Patchface might tell us whether Davos is who he thinks he is, or whether he has become someone else.

3 hours ago, Tagganaro said:

... I'm also not sure I can see when and where it would be both viable and effective for her to use a glamored Davos- besides for his "friendship" with Salladhor Sahn he doesn't exactly open any doors that Mel couldn't open herself.

And I don't find it so strange that Mel both saves Davos's life and keeps Devan close to her.  I do think she likes Davos despite him planning on killing her, she sees how loyal he is to Stannis and how he gives him good advice, and when you consider the cesspool of bad people hanging around Stannis like Axell Florent and Clayton Suggs I could see why Mel likes Davos to stick around and would also want to help out his son.

I think Mel wants Davos around exactly because he does open doors she can't open herself. Remember how Ser Cortnay Penrose dies? Melisandre says that dark magic can't get through the walls of Storm's End. She has to have Davos smuggle her in so she can unleash the shadow weapon. Maybe it's just because he is a skilled smuggler and has found a secret sea cave at the base of the castle, but maybe it's because he has some special power. We know that the Black Gate at The Wall will open only for a brother of the Night's Watch. Arya can't get passage on a ship until she shows her iron coin from the Faceless Men. What kind of power would Davos have to get into Storm's End?

Oddly enough, I think root vegetables may be a clue about people with the power to go through these magic doors. Davos is all about onions, of course. Bran sends a dish of root vegetables to Big Walder and Little Walder at the Winterfell harvest feast. They are the ones who let Theon / Reek out of the dungeon at the Dread Fort when Ramsay is ready to send him on a mission to Moat Cailin. Opening a door for Theon, in a sense. And I've recently written something about the camp follower named Hildy who personifies The Teats and the Village of Pennytree. Jaime compares her naked body to turnips, and she comes onto Jaime sexually and seems to invite him to follow her. I think he needed the turnip woman to open the magic door for him. (We won't know what is beyond that door until we see Jaime and Brienne again in the next book.)

I also think that Melisandre is cultivating and grooming Devan in a way similar to the way that Eddard Stark kept Theon Greyjoy close. Theon was a ward but he was also a hostage, to ensure good behavior from Balon Greyjoy. At some point, Melisandre may threaten Devan as a way of getting something important from Davos.

Maybe Davos has been Melisandre's goal all along. She knows that a low born guy can't muster an army or make an immediate claim on the throne, but she can help him to move up through the ranks as a knight and a lord by manipulating Stannis. He won't have the same credibility as a high born lord, but he gets a little closer to the center of power.

3 hours ago, kissdbyfire said:

That's it for me. The bag of fingerbones is the red herring, the pair of boots foreshadowing. Had a thread about it ages ago. 

ETA: 

 

I agree that the boots are a clue about something coming up for Arya. I think there is deliberate wordplay around "no one" and "onion," linking Arya and Davos. The fact that Dareon married the Sailor's Wife about the time he went missing may also be important. The Sailor's Wife is the person who gives Arya a tour of some of the houses of worship in Braavos, particularly describing part - but not all - of the death and rebirth beliefs around the cult of three-headed Trios. The statue of Trios is also mentioned by Penny when she tells Tyrion about another little person who died because of the reward offered for Tyrion's death. The man was dismembered and stuffed in the mouths of the Trios statue.

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9 hours ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

Or maybe one of the other items is the object of the foreshadowing and the fingerbones are a red herring. Arya took Dareon's boots. 

The a lock of yellow hair in Archmaester Walgrave's strongbox, now within the reach of The Alchemist.

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6 hours ago, Seams said:

We take for granted that cutting off fingers is a just punishment for smuggling because Davos tells us that he accepts it - he really did deserve it, he indicates, so the reader doesn't put a lot of thought into it. But what if Stannis was acting on Melisandre's suggestion when he chose to punish Davos in this way? What if Melisandre wanted those fingerbones for some reason?

That would need Melisandre to be around the time Davos lost his fingers. Which I don't think is the case. Davos became acquaintance of Stannis when he smuggled food to Storm's End, during Robert's Rebellion. In AGoT, Tyrion IX, we have this;

Quote

His father frowned. "I have felt from the beginning that Stannis was a greater danger than all the others combined. Yet he does nothing. Oh, Varys hears his whispers. Stannis is building ships, Stannis is hiring sellswords, Stannis is bringing a shadowbinder from Asshai. What does it mean? Is any of it true?" He gave an irritated shrug. "Kevan, bring us the map."

So if you don't think that Stannis for some reason waited some fifteen years to cut Davos' fingertips, I'd say Mel was not there.

Edited by TsarGrey
redundant h

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9 hours ago, Ckram said:

The a lock of yellow hair in Archmaester Walgrave's strongbox, now within the reach of The Alchemist.

Yes, that could develop, but I don't see how yet. Perhaps another lock of hair? 

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35 minutes ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

Perhaps another lock of hair?

Sure. I'd only leave Tyrek's out since faceless men already seem to have his face (ADWD, The Blind Girl).

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9 hours ago, TsarGrey said:

That would need Melisandre to be around the time Davos lost his fingers. Which I don't think is the case. Davos became acquaintance of Stannis when he smuggled food to Storm's End, during Robert's Rebellion. In AGoT, Tyrion IX, we have this;

So if you don't think that Stannis for some reason waited some fifteen years to cut Davos' fingertips, I'd say Mel was not there.

Ah, the timeline gets me every time. So much for that part of my post.

On the other hand:

"Melisandre had practiced her art for years beyond count, and she had paid the price."

Maybe we can disregard any timelines involving Melisandre.

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1 hour ago, Seams said:

Ah, the timeline gets me every time. So much for that part of my post.

On the other hand:

"Melisandre had practiced her art for years beyond count, and she had paid the price."

Maybe we can disregard any timelines involving Melisandre.

Even if we choose to momentarily ignore time, there's still the matter of space.

Ignore that, ok? You managed to get me through some convoluted thoughtprocess just suggesting we ignore timeline. But if we do that, what works? Bran, I'd say, as he may be able to affect past, but Melisandre is not given.

Edited by TsarGrey

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32 minutes ago, TsarGrey said:

Even if we choose to momentarily ignore time, there's still the matter of space.

Ignore that, ok? You managed to get me through some convoluted thoughtprocess just suggesting we ignore timeline. But if we do that, what works? Bran, I'd say, as he may be able to affect past, but Melisandre is not given.

Or maybe Melisandre is working with a team, on some level. Maybe someone retrieved the finger tips at the scene of the maiming and kept them for her.

But I don't want to go too far out on this limb -- my thoughts up the thread were largely just a brainstorming session, to figure out whether we had been taking too much for granted. I always suspect that GRRM is leading us down one path so he can suddenly point out that the action has all been taking place somewhere we weren't looking. As much as I wish for it, I know I will never outsmart him, though. There will be plot twists and I will love them when they surprise me.

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5 minutes ago, Seams said:

Or maybe Melisandre is working with a team, on some level. Maybe someone retrieved the finger tips at the scene of the maiming and kept them for her.

Thought about this, too. She could've used glasscandle from Asshai, to send dreams to someone and manipulate/order that person to do as she desired. I don't think it happened, but well, a thought. And if candle belonged to someone else, that would explain why she'd left it there.

It would far better if she just replaced Davos' finger pouch while they were both Dragonstone. Though Davos should've rather familiar with it's feel.

11 minutes ago, Seams said:

But I don't want to go too far out on this limb -- my thoughts up the thread were largely just a brainstorming session, to figure out whether we had been taking too much for granted. I always suspect that GRRM is leading us down one path so he can suddenly point out that the action has all been taking place somewhere we weren't looking. As much as I wish for it, I know I will never outsmart him, though. There will be plot twists and I will love them when they surprise me.

Yeah, let's stop there, then. We left the ground of fictional reality and reasonable possibility a while ago.

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23 hours ago, Tagganaro said:

Yeah, this is my issue with the Davos glamor as well.  Mel would need the fingerbones, and I don't see how she would have gotten them.  They were either always around Davos's neck before the Blackwater, or lost at the Blackwater.   I'm also not sure I can see when and where it would be both viable and effective for her to use a glamored Davos- besides for his "friendship" with Salladhor Sahn he doesn't exactly open any doors that Mel couldn't open herself.

And I don't find it so strange that Mel both saves Davos's life and keeps Devan close to her.  I do think she likes Davos despite him planning on killing her, she sees how loyal he is to Stannis and how he gives him good advice, and when you consider the cesspool of bad people hanging around Stannis like Axell Florent and Clayton Suggs I could see why Mel likes Davos to stick around and would also want to help out his son.

I'm thinking a bag of fingerbones could he just that. It doesn't necessarily have to be Davos'.

I find everything about Mel saving Davos strange. He tried to kill her, and still probably harbors that feeling. Furthermore when Mel saved Davos it was only after he met and was "charmed" by Edric. None of that makes sense. We add Devan to this list and things really get complicated. I have zero belief that Mel kept Devan at the Wall as a kindness to his father

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In my opinion the reason Melisandre mentions the fingerbones is because she feels there is something off about Davos since the big battle, but she can't figure out what. I think she is still thinking about it and mentions the fingerbones because she considered Davos might be a glamor, but rejected that idea because the fingerbones were lost. I think this is very definitely some type of clue about Davos because there are other clues that Davos might not be exactly what he appears to be. I don't think Daeron would be terribly relevant at this point. I'm not sure what is going on with Davos, but I'm sure it has nothing to do with AA/PTWP. My biggest guess would be that he now somehow warded against wightification by the Others (which I suspect many of the Iron Born are also).

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In story, because it is an example of an item that would easily come to her mind, having been seeing it regularly until recently. She may have considered it would have been of use to her. 

It might also be foreshadowing of Davos' fingers having been found and will be used in the future.

Eta

@Seams it seems to me that the only plausible way this happened would be that Melisandre had then replaced at some point with a very similar bag, prompted perhaps by a vision or by thinking it would be useful to her.

My first thought was crackpot, but it is not out of the realm of possibility, that Davos' fingers have been found by someone. The site of the Blackwater must have been scoured by looters and workers and of they wound up on the bank someone might have kept them as a memento. 

Edited by The Sleeper

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On 6/26/2018 at 7:28 PM, Seams said:

This raises a lot of interesting questions.

We take for granted that cutting off fingers is a just punishment for smuggling because Davos tells us that he accepts it - he really did deserve it, he indicates, so the reader doesn't put a lot of thought into it. But what if Stannis was acting on Melisandre's suggestion when he chose to punish Davos in this way? What if Melisandre wanted those fingerbones for some reason?

As pointed out above by @TsarGrey Melisandre was not around until recently.  She definitely was not there when Davos was punished.  

Quote

We also accept Davos at his word when he says he was carrying his own fingerbones around in a little bag. But think about the moment of his punishment. Would a man whose fingers were cut off immediately gather up the severed fingertips so he could remove the flesh and keep them for a souvenir? Probably not. He was probably unconscious from the pain or, at least, putting himself in the care of a maester to stop the bleeding and bandage the injuries. Someone else probably collected the severed digits and . . . did they give them to the Silent Sisters to have the flesh removed? What if someone kept Davos's fingers, got some other fingerbones, and gave the imposters to Davos, telling him that they were his own bones? Much like Manderly using someone else's skull and hands to fool the Lannisters into thinking that Davos had been executed.

I mean, this may be true but it seems like an awful lot of trouble to go through for some measly fingerbones that nobody but Melisandre, who wasn't there, would have any use for.

Quote

Another possibility altogether: Davos really did die at the Blackwater. Whoever has been talking to us as the Davos POV is someone Melisandre either brought back to life, as Thoros does with Ser Beric, or is someone glamored and hypnotized (?) into believing that he is Davos. Maybe Salladhor Saan is in on the glamor strategy and both put the body out on that rock and then picked him up when he "awoke" an was ready to be rescued. A close analysis of the drowning and rebirth of Patchface might tell us whether Davos is who he thinks he is, or whether he has become someone else.

I hate the idea that GRRM would use a POV character to purposefully deceive readers like that.   I just don't think he would do that.  

Quote

I think Mel wants Davos around exactly because he does open doors she can't open herself. Remember how Ser Cortnay Penrose dies? Melisandre says that dark magic can't get through the walls of Storm's End. She has to have Davos smuggle her in so she can unleash the shadow weapon. Maybe it's just because he is a skilled smuggler and has found a secret sea cave at the base of the castle, but maybe it's because he has some special power. We know that the Black Gate at The Wall will open only for a brother of the Night's Watch. Arya can't get passage on a ship until she shows her iron coin from the Faceless Men. What kind of power would Davos have to get into Storm's End?

Yes but she's using Davos for his skills, not for his looks.  Davos has skills as a smuggler that helped her get into Storm's End, it had nothing to do with Davos's looks or birth.  Davos's "power" is his smuggling skill.

21 hours ago, Hugorfonics said:

I'm thinking a bag of fingerbones could he just that. It doesn't necessarily have to be Davos'.

ah ok...I'm still not sure whose fingerbones we have that would make sense.  Anyone missing a finger?  Jaime Lannister?

Quote

I find everything about Mel saving Davos strange. He tried to kill her, and still probably harbors that feeling. Furthermore when Mel saved Davos it was only after he met and was "charmed" by Edric. None of that makes sense. We add Devan to this list and things really get complicated. I have zero belief that Mel kept Devan at the Wall as a kindness to his father

I agree with you, but to that same end we have Melisandre's POV where she says she's keeping Devan around as a kindness to Davos.  

Quote

In truth, he was here because Melisandre had asked for him.  The four eldest sons of Davos Seaworth had perished in the battle on the Blackwater...Devan was the fifthborn and safer here with her than at the King's side.  Lord Davos would not thank her for it, no more than the boy himself, but it seemed to her that Seaworth had suffered enough grief.  Misguided as he was, his loyalty to Stannis could not be doubted.  She had seen that in her flames. 

It's possible she's lying to herself and by extension us the readers, but again as I said above I like to think that GRRM would not use POV characters to be purposefully deceptive and misleading like that.  

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