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“Wed her, bed her, put a child in her”... what are you thinking, Tywin?

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So I’m a bit perplexed in what Tywin is thinking in having Sansa marry Tyrion. 

  1. She’s 12 and barely started menstuating. It’s just feels wrong to have a pubescent girl marry someone more than twice her age. As Jon Arryn’s marriage to Lysa Arryn proved, having a husband and wife who are more than 10 years apart is a bad idea, since couples at different ages have different needs, for both the body and the heart.
  2. Having Tyrion bed her and put a child in her is a very risky business. The best example I can think of is Margaret Beaufort, the mother of Henry Tudor (later Henry VII of England). She gave birth at 13, and never successfully carried another child after that. If it’s a girl and Sansa can’t have more children, Tywin’s plan to continue his male line has failed. And the child would never hear the end of it from Tywin if it was a dwarf.
Edited by Angel Eyes

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Sure it's risky, but so is an unconsummated marriage. If Sansa has no children from Tyrion and something happens to him, someone else could snatch her and Winterfell along with it. (Which is kind of exactly what Littlefinger plans to make happen.) Also, I don't really get the feeling that a lot of people in Westeros are aware of the risks of impregnating a young teenage girl. Especially Tywin is very ruthless and not exactly known for caring about the wellbeing of others. If Sansa dies in childbirth he probably wouldn't care as long as she birthes a living son before.

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I don't think  Tywin was too concerned with the difficulties experienced by a pubescent girl. He was ready to betroth his 9 or 10 year old daughter Cersei to a 16-17 year old Rhaegar, and I doubt he would have waited too many years to start pushing for the ceremony and consummation. This is also a world where an eight year old Jaehaera was wed to an eleven year old Aegon III (though not yet consummated), and Daenaera was even younger when she was wed to Aegon III (though also not consummated until much later). 

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22 minutes ago, Angel Eyes said:

So I’m a bit perplexed in what Tywin is thinking in having Sansa marry Tyrion. 

  1. She’s 12 and barely started menstuating. It’s just feels wrong to have a pubescent girl marry someone more than twice her age. As Jon Arryn’s marriage to Lysa Arryn proved, having a husband and wife who are more than 10 years apart is a bad idea, since couples at different ages have different needs, for both the body and the heart.

It proves it can be a bad idea, not that it's a guaranteed shit relationship. Other factors basically guarantee that but they aren't relevant to a discussion on age.

22 minutes ago, Angel Eyes said:
  1. Having Tyrion bed her and put a child in her is a very risky business. The best example I can think of is Margaret Beaufort, the mother of Henry Tudor (later Henry VII of England). She gave birth at 13, and never successfully carried another child after that. If it’s a girl and Sansa can’t have more children, Tywin’s plan to continue his male line has failed. And the child would never hear the end of it from Tywin if it was a dwarf.

Tywin's not planning to continue the male line so much as securing the north. Tywin even asks Kevan about other Lannister options, though this seems like a plan to pressure Tyrion into doing what they want.

“Our alliances in the south may be as solid as Casterly Rock, but there remains the north to win, and the key to the north is Sansa Stark.”

 

 

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37 minutes ago, Universal Sword Donor said:

It proves it can be a bad idea, not that it's a guaranteed shit relationship. Other factors basically guarantee that but they aren't relevant to a discussion on age.

Tywin's not planning to continue the male line so much as securing the north. Tywin even asks Kevan about other Lannister options, though this seems like a plan to pressure Tyrion into doing what they want.

“Our alliances in the south may be as solid as Casterly Rock, but there remains the north to win, and the key to the north is Sansa Stark.”

 

 

Well, most happy marriages in Westeros (and there are very few) are where the husband and wife are within 10 years of each other, such as Ned and Catelyn (1-2 years) and Tywin and Joanna (4 years). Jon and Lysa being 40-50 years apart caused lots of trouble for their house and the realm as a whole.

I’m surprised that Tywin wouldn’t want to continue the family name. I thought that was one of his aims, to make sure his name lives on.

44 minutes ago, Bael's Bastard said:

I don't think  Tywin was too concerned with the difficulties experienced by a pubescent girl. He was ready to betroth his 9 or 10 year old daughter Cersei to a 16-17 year old Rhaegar, and I doubt he would have waited too many years to start pushing for the ceremony and consummation. This is also a world where an eight year old Jaehaera was wed to an eleven year old Aegon III (though not yet consummated), and Daenaera was even younger when she was wed to Aegon III (though also not consummated until much later). 

I’m surprised that Tywin wouldn’t be concerned with such difficulties. Even from a pragmatic stance, waiting for consummation would work better for him. 

Edited by Angel Eyes

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2 hours ago, Angel Eyes said:

So I’m a bit perplexed in what Tywin is thinking in having Sansa marry Tyrion. 

  1. She’s 12 and barely started menstuating. It’s just feels wrong to have a pubescent girl marry someone more than twice her age. As Jon Arryn’s marriage to Lysa Arryn proved, having a husband and wife who are more than 10 years apart is a bad idea, since couples at different ages have different needs, for both the body and the heart.
  2. Having Tyrion bed her and put a child in her is a very risky business. The best example I can think of is Margaret Beaufort, the mother of Henry Tudor (later Henry VII of England). She gave birth at 13, and never successfully carried another child after that. If it’s a girl and Sansa can’t have more children, Tywin’s plan to continue his male line has failed. And the child would never hear the end of it from Tywin if it was a dwarf.

Sansa is the only known living child of Ned Stark, so which ever house can father a legal child on her would inherit Winterfell. For Tywin, this means he adds the north to has already expanded dominion of the westerlands, crownlands, stormlands and riverlands. With heirs at each of these seats, Tywin literally controls more than half the kingdom.

Sansa is a woman flowered, perfectly capable of birthing a child. Many girls that young go on to have multiple children and many girls far older fail to produce even one. The longer it takes, the greater the chance that something will happen to either Sansa or Tyrion and Tywin's opportunity will be lost.

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1 hour ago, Angel Eyes said:

Well, most happy marriages in Westeros (and there are very few) are where the husband and wife are within 10 years of each other, such as Ned and Catelyn (1-2 years) and Tywin and Joanna (4 years). Jon and Lysa being 40-50 years apart caused lots of trouble for their house and the realm as a whole.

I’m surprised that Tywin wouldn’t want to continue the family name. I thought that was one of his aims, to make sure his name lives on.

Tywin has multiple options for continuing the family name. Foremost there are a million Lannisters running around, so it's not as if the name is in danger. More to the point, Jaime and Tommen are still alive and Tommen can easily take the Lannister name if need be

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I do agree that logically it was a weird decision on Tywin's part. Surely maesters and other educated people would realise that there is an increased risk of death and miscarriage if the hips of the mother are not fully formed. If a 13-year-old Sansa died in childbirth with the baby they would lose any potential power in the North. Additionally, it's not like Sansa was going anywhere after her marriage to Tyrion. She'd already been in KL for almost 2 years and after Battle of Blackwater their hold over the city was very strong so it was almost certain that they'd manage to keep her there for another few years so she could further mature and better their chances of her producing a healthy, living heir and maybe even a spare.

George probably does this just to add in a conflict for both Sansa and Tyrion and since some girls that young gave birth historically it was justifiable and not wholly unrealistic.

On another note, I also found it strange how everyone was okay with Ramsay bedding 11-year-old "Arya". I think there are only a handful of cases in all of history of girls that young getting pregnant. Even if she was menstruating that would surely be too young even in the eyes of Westerosi nobles. 

Edited by AmberEmpress

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Tywin's primary concern at this point is taking Sansa off the marriage market.  The plot to marry her to Willas Tyrell made clear the potential threat she posed.  Marrying her to Tyrion does this, even if no child actually results.  As far as Tywin is concerned, if a child results, that would be great, but it is not a huge problem if none results.  Consummation is a necessity, to avoid the danger of annulment.

As for the north, Sansa may be the de jure claimant to Winterfell, but as we know, that may or may not actually mean anything.  If the North is unwilling to accept her (and her husband) then that claim doesn't really matter.

17 minutes ago, AmberEmpress said:

On another note, I also found it strange how everyone was okay with Ramsay bedding 11-year-old "Arya". I think there are only a handful of cases in all of history of girls that young getting pregnant. Even if she was menstruating that would surely be too young even in the eyes of Westerosi nobles. 

I doubt that the assembled nobles at Winterfell actually know how old Arya is really supposed to be, just that she is younger than Sansa, who is younger than Robb, who is around 15.   Jeyne Poole is roughly Sansa's age, which puts her at around 13

In the real Middle Ages, precise, or sometimes even approximate, dates of birth, and therefore, age, were often a product of guesswork or completely unknown, even for those of relatively high birth.  This was especially true of girls.

Edited by Nevets

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28 minutes ago, Nevets said:

Tywin's primary concern at this point is taking Sansa off the marriage market.  The plot to marry her to Willas Tyrell made clear the potential threat she posed.  Marrying her to Tyrion does this, even if no child actually results.  As far as Tywin is concerned, if a child results, that would be great, but it is not a huge problem if none results.  Consummation is a necessity, to avoid the danger of annulment.

This. When he utters the "wed and bed" line he is just talking about consummating the marriage. He tells Tyrion he can wait a year or two to bed her again. He just wants a grandson born before the arrival of the next summer.

"Your sister swears she's flowered. If so, she is a woman, fit to be wed. You must needs take her maidenhead, so no man can say the marriage was not consummated. After that, if you prefer to wait a year or two before bedding her again, you would be within your rights as her husband."

When you bring Eddard Stark's grandsonhome to claim his birthright, lords and little folk alike will rise as one to place him on the high seat of his ancestors. You are capable of getting a woman with child, I hope?"

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9 hours ago, Angel Eyes said:

So I’m a bit perplexed in what Tywin is thinking in having Sansa marry Tyrion. 

  1. She’s 12 and barely started menstuating. It’s just feels wrong to have a pubescent girl marry someone more than twice her age. As Jon Arryn’s marriage to Lysa Arryn proved, having a husband and wife who are more than 10 years apart is a bad idea, since couples at different ages have different needs, for both the body and the heart.
  2. Having Tyrion bed her and put a child in her is a very risky business. The best example I can think of is Margaret Beaufort, the mother of Henry Tudor (later Henry VII of England). She gave birth at 13, and never successfully carried another child after that. If it’s a girl and Sansa can’t have more children, Tywin’s plan to continue his male line has failed. And the child would never hear the end of it from Tywin if it was a dwarf.

One of the flaws in the books is grrm openly admits he messed up ages

Add 3-4 years to each stark kid as original drafts had time inbetween various events to age them which was left out of rewrite for sake of a more flowing story but george forgot to adjust ages

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16 hours ago, Universal Sword Donor said:

When he utters the "wed and bed" line he is just talking about consummating the marriage.

:agree: He just wants to be sure that Sansa is off the market and Winterfell is his to solidify his northern alliances with.

A Storm of Swords Ch.19 Tyrion III is one of those chapters that are beautiful on re-reading. It is so subtle: we are shown how little Tyrion understands his father's mind, in spite of his quick wits with his thoughts on Petyr Baelish taking his leave:

Quote

Lord of Harrenhal an empty honor? Bugger that, Father. Even if he never sets foot in the castle, the title makes this match possible, as he’s known all along.

Tywin knew all along too - why else would he give someone as low as Petyr Baelish such a great empty honour? I wonder what he had planned for the Eyrie and Lysa after - I am guessing he intended to take SweetRobin as a page at Casterley Rock, because he isn't so stupid as to trust Lord Baelish.

Tyrion's arrogance comes to the fore as he contemptuously observes Mace and Paxtor

Quote

The sheep were bleating their agreement, unaware of how neatly they’d been shorn

 blind to the looming portentions for himself. He observes them foreshadow his own fate: their high spirits at the start of the meeting buoyed higher by news that Tarly had saved the trade of Duskendale for Paxter, their carefully concealed consternation as they absorb the lesser blow that Petyr has snatched Lysa away from - Horas or Hobber? I don't know who they planned to control the ports of the Vale, but it certainly wasn't Petyr, and Paxter thinks it stinks so bad he has to hold his nose. Even this pales into insignificance after Petyr skedaddles, when Tywin calmly reveals that he has scotched their designs on the North, and (he, Lord Tywin, the babe butcher, of all people) sealed a deal with the Dornish, too. It takes all the sops Lord Tywin can offer them, and the thought of Lord Tywin having to settle krackens, wildlings, and dragons sans quill, to return him to a semblance of easy humour. 

The Reach lords were, like Tyrion, aware that they were at the board to bleat their agreement with Lord Tywin and be shorn one by one, and however chilly they were after the fleecing, better that than be cut and tarred for struggling in open defiance of the procedure. Even so, the worst damage for Cersei was not inflicted by her father or herself, but by her little brother. 

Quote

“I fear a trap. Littlefinger is subtle and ambitious. I do not trust him. Nor should you.”
“He won Highgarden to our side …” Cersei began.
“… and sold you Ned Stark, I know. He will sell us just as quick. A coin is as dangerous as a sword in the wrong hands.”
His uncle Kevan looked at him oddly. “Not to us, surely. The gold of Casterly Rock …”
“… is dug from the ground. Littlefinger’s gold is made from thin air, with a snap of his fingers.”

at which point Kevan realises that the Incest Queen might very well want his son dead. No doubt he would sooner have Petyr Baelish at the Eyrie than in King's Landing, even if Petyr has clearly betrayed Cersei by going to her father and not her with whispers of the Tyrells plotting to take Sansa.

There is no simple by-play in this chapter, especially not for Kevan after this realisation

Quote

Ser Kevan hesitated. “If we bring the girl to his bedside, he could say the words … but to consummate, no … I would suggest one of the twins, but the Starks hold them both at Riverrun. They have Genna’s boy Tion as well, else he might serve.”

Kevan knows Tywin's plans, and Winterfell and all the North is not enough to tempt him to contemplate Sansa marrying any of his sons. Tyrion assumes Kevan is playing a part, but I don't know.

Lord Tywin reminds Tyrion  that Sansa is "the best chance you are likely to have", which sounds sinister. He dwells on the insults he has suffered from Aerys, Hoster Tully, Doran's father, Yohn Royce, Leyton Hightower, and Ser Colin Florent (The second son of the castellan of Dragonstone. Quelle horreur). His comes back to the point he started with - the need to stop Tyrion sleeping with the whores (or at least, to stop sleeping with the one that, apparently, catered to Tywin's baser needs.) Non of this is good.

Even knowing that Lord Tywin's 'other options' are the Boltons and fArya, doesn't make it clear to me that Lord Tywin is giving Tyrion a reward, or a chance at Winterfell. That fArya is Jeyne Poole means Petyr Baelish is part of this plan too, which can't be great for Tyrion, even if it effectively displaces the real Arya and Sansa is the older, and actually is Sansa. Getting Winterfell off Ramsey Bolton, or keeping his heir of Winterfell safe while Ramsey is his Castellan.

That is, if he is capable of fathering a child anyway. Tywin has his doubts

Quote

"You are capable of getting a woman with child, I hope?”
“I believe I am,” he said, bristling. “I confess, I cannot prove it. Though no one can say I have not tried. Why, I plant my little seeds just as often as I can …”

If Tyrion has been whoring for as long as Sansa has been breathing, it seems remarkable that he has not been approached by a madam, or asked for a favourite to find she was pregnant or on maternity leave.

Quote

 “You shall never have Casterly Rock, I promise you. But wed Sansa Stark, and it is just possible that you might win Winterfell.”

Lord Protector of Winterfell now there is a hollow title. Tywin knows, Bolton knows, how hollow that title will be.

"Never have Casterly Rock" - Aerys is dead and buried but Tywin isn't going to give him the satisfaction of handing the wealth of Casterley Rock to Tyrion, the foreseeable consequence of Jaime's elevation to the King's Guard.  Aerys had enough trouble with his own inheritance to foresee it. I think there might be a rationale for the Mad King's determination to kill off both the Lord and the heir of the ancient houses of Royce, Mallister, Stark, Arryn, and Baratheon in Malleon's book.

On the subject of male fertility, it is not only Tyrion's lack of bastards that seems odd. Tywin's wife had two pregnancies, three and ten years after they married. There is A+J=T to give us (and Tywin) doubts that Tyrion is his, and none of his children have his distinctive gold-flecked eyes.  He never remarried. Oddly sentimental in a man who is so devoted to making strategic marriages. Strangely out of place, like the unhealthy interest he takes in his childrens' sex lives, like the whore in his death-bed.

And all he is offering Tyrion is a chance

Quote

“This is a chance for you, Tyrion, the best you are ever likely to have.”

A ticket in the Winterfell lottery. Not an inheritance that is his by rights, but an opportunity to take Winterfell by conquest, in the name of his son by Sansa. Roose Bolton gave Ramsey a chance too, when he allowed his then-unacknowledged bastard to act as  castellan of the Dreadfort the better to carry off Lady Hornwood.  I would back Tyrion if he were to be in a battle with Ramsey for Winterfell, but would Lord Tywin? Family unity demands he does, but Tywin has already warned Tyrion about his rewards earlier, when he was making his Red Wedding arrangements. 

Quote

speak to me no more of your rights to Casterly Rock. You shall have your reward, but it shall be one I deem appropriate to your service and station.

(ASoS, Ch.04 Tyrion I)

So it is all very unfair, that Tyrion should have to win the whole North over to the Lannisters, and get his castle from the Greyjoys and the Boltons, prove his claims not only against such as these, but also against people like RArya, if she pops up again, or Bran, or Rickon. And because his father won't allow him to inherit what the second son of his legal wife might reasonably expect to be his, after his brother took the white cloak. Not much of a reward for his chain and his wildfire, either. How is that appropriate to his service or his station? It seems more like another chance to kill him.

In the final pages it turns out that the wedding arrangements this chapter was really foreshadowing all along are not Lysa's and Petyr's , or Joffrey's and Margaery's or Cersei's to Willas, or Sansa's to Tyrion, nothing to do with Lord Randyll's alliance with Lord Mooton, or Marcella and Trystane; not any of the wild hypothetical pairings referenced: not Balon,  Theon, Asha, or Yohn Royce, Lyn Corbray, Horton Redfort, Oberyn or Quentyn Martell,  Horas or Hobber, not Brynden, Lucas, Hoster, Edmund, or Alyn Blackwood, not Patrek Mallister, not Wymen, Wendell or Marlon Manderly, not Mors, Hother or Smalljon Umber, not Lancel, Martyn, Willem Lannister, or Tion Frey, not Lynesse or Melora Hightower, Delana Florent, Ysilla Royce, or even Lollys Stokeworth.

The wedding this chapter was really about was the Red one. And, just as Mace, Tyrion, and Cersei were given the bad news and then given the catastrophically bad news, we learn it in two stages: firstly Tywin reveals that the King in the North isn't going to marry Arwyn, Shirrei, Ami, Marianne, Little Bee, Walda, Merry, Tyta, Walda, Marissa, Sera, Sarra, or Roslin. That in fact the King in the North has already married the daughter of his own bannerman Gawen Westerling, and he knows that marriage will never bear fruit.

The way the characters slowly reveal themselves in this chapter, the mix of war and wedding arrangements, the way it plays on what you don't know and what you do, on the first read and again on the second and third, it really is so superbly written, such a pleasure to read.

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17 hours ago, Nevets said:

Consummation is a necessity, to avoid the danger of annulment.

Do we know this for certain? I think it was only a thing in the show, where they used the non-consummation as an excuse that Sansa could just marry again even though there was no proof Tyrion was actually dead and the marriage was never annulled. In the books, she cannot marry as long as Tyrion is potentially alive.

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35 minutes ago, punzerknacker said:

Do we know this for certain? I think it was only a thing in the show, where they used the non-consummation as an excuse that Sansa could just marry again even though there was no proof Tyrion was actually dead and the marriage was never annulled. In the books, she cannot marry as long as Tyrion is potentially alive.

A Storm of Swords - Tyrion IV
"She is old enough to be Lady of Winterfell once her brother is dead. Claim her maidenhood and you will be one step closer to claiming the north. Get her with child, and the prize is all but won. Do I need to remind you that a marriage that has not been consummated can be set aside?"
"By the High Septon or a Council of Faith. Our present High Septon is a trained seal who barks prettily on command. Moon Boy is more like to annul my marriage than he is."


A Feast for Crows - Jaime I
"Storm's End?" Cersei looked thoughtful. "Yes, but . . . Lord Tyrell has made it tediously plain that he will not leave King's Landing till Tommen marries Margaery."
Jaime sighed. "Then let them wed. It will be years before Tommen is old enough to consummate the marriage. And until he does, the union can always be set aside. Give Tyrell his wedding and send him off to play at war."


A Feast for Crows - Jaime IV
"A lion shouldn't have horns. You took the girl to wife."
"I said some words and gave her a red cloak, but only to please Father. Marriage requires consummation. King Baelor was made to wed his sister Daena, but they never lived as man and wife, and he put her aside as soon as he was crowned."


The Winds of Winter - Theon I
"You?" The king scowled. "The woman is wed, Justin."
"A proxy marriage, never consummated. Easily set aside. The groom is old besides. Like to die soon."


The World of Ice and Fire - The Targaryen Kings: Baelor I
The realm celebrated when Baelor at last regained the Iron Throne. Yet Baelor's interests remained firmly on the Seven, and his first new edicts must have caused consternation among those who had been used to Aegon III's sober rule, Daeron's benign neglect, and Viserys's shrewd stewardship. Having been wed in 160 AC to his sister Daena, the king proceeded to convince the High Septon to dissolve the marriage. It was contracted before he was king, he argued, and had never been consummated.

Edited by Bael's Bastard

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3 hours ago, Bael's Bastard said:

Do I need to remind you that a marriage that has not been consummated can be set aside?"
"By the High Septon or a Council of Faith. Our present High Septon is a trained seal who barks prettily on command. Moon Boy is more like to annul my marriage than he is."

Good points, and yet Tyrion has a point here… at least in the near future, no one is likely to annul their marriage. But Westeros is not yet at peace, Tyrion already nearly died several times in the recent past (in the Vale, during the Battle of the Blackwater), thus Tywin pressing for Tyrion to produce a Lannister heir to the North, and soon. I don't think annulment is a very realistic concern in this scenario, Tywin is just trying to pull every possible argument he has...

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I don't think Tywin cares about it being a happy marriage. I don't have the quote to hand, but he asks Tyrion if he will mistreat Sansa mostly out of curiosity.

Vis-à-vis annulment, House Tyrell could always push for it to be annulled a few years down the line if Tyrion hasn't consummated it. Then they could strongarm the Lannisters into offering Sansa to Willas, as they had originally planned. I think this is what Tywin is afraid of.

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Just occurred to me: Tywin's plan with the wedding, bedding, and child-getting might have nothing to do with how such a thing would serve the Lannisters in the future, and everything to do with how Catelyn is likely to feel about it in the present.

Quote

Robb took her hand. “They married her to Tyrion Lannister.”
Catelyn’s fingers clutched at his. “The Imp.”
“Yes.”
“He swore to trade her for his brother,” she said numbly. “Sansa and Arya both. We would have them back if we returned his precious Jaime, he swore it before the whole court. How could he marry her, after saying that in sight of gods and men?”
“He’s the Kingslayer’s brother. Oathbreaking runs in their blood.”

(ASoS, Ch.35 Catelyn IV)

Tywin did not intend for Catelyn to die in the Red Wedding. He intended that she would be a captive in the Twins, and Sansa heir of Winterfell, when he negotiated the end of the war with her. Tyrion, as her son-in-law, had some power as an influencer, and as the future Lord of Winterfell, some interest in coming to terms with her. Tywin wanted to undermine that, to ensure that Catelyn would trust his terms over Tyrion's, if she had any choice. 

The threat of Sansa being repeatedly raped, risking or losing her life with a child trapped in her girl-child pelvis, crying for her mother... these might be employed to exploit the weakness for the welfare of her girls that Tywin learnt Lady Catelyn had when Bolton returned Jaime to him. The weakness that delivered him not just Jaime, but Roose Bolton, and through Roose Bolton, the Freys.

 

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On 6/26/2018 at 2:04 PM, Angel Eyes said:

So I’m a bit perplexed in what Tywin is thinking in having Sansa marry Tyrion. 

  1. She’s 12 and barely started menstuating. It’s just feels wrong to have a pubescent girl marry someone more than twice her age. As Jon Arryn’s marriage to Lysa Arryn proved, having a husband and wife who are more than 10 years apart is a bad idea, since couples at different ages have different needs, for both the body and the heart.
  2. Having Tyrion bed her and put a child in her is a very risky business. The best example I can think of is Margaret Beaufort, the mother of Henry Tudor (later Henry VII of England). She gave birth at 13, and never successfully carried another child after that. If it’s a girl and Sansa can’t have more children, Tywin’s plan to continue his male line has failed. And the child would never hear the end of it from Tywin if it was a dwarf.

She was the same age as Tysha.

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On 6/26/2018 at 4:04 PM, Angel Eyes said:

So I’m a bit perplexed in what Tywin is thinking in having Sansa marry Tyrion. 

  1. She’s 12 and barely started menstuating. It’s just feels wrong to have a pubescent girl marry someone more than twice her age. As Jon Arryn’s marriage to Lysa Arryn proved, having a husband and wife who are more than 10 years apart is a bad idea, since couples at different ages have different needs, for both the body and the heart.
  2. Having Tyrion bed her and put a child in her is a very risky business. The best example I can think of is Margaret Beaufort, the mother of Henry Tudor (later Henry VII of England). She gave birth at 13, and never successfully carried another child after that. If it’s a girl and Sansa can’t have more children, Tywin’s plan to continue his male line has failed. And the child would never hear the end of it from Tywin if it was a dwarf.

I think it makes sense and may actually be a scenario where Tywin is trying to throw Tyrion a bone so to speak.  From Tywins perspective re Tyrion, he's not giving Tyrion Casterly Rock and outside of Master of Coin Tyrion doesn't really have much of a role to play.  From Tywin's perspective re the North he sees the vacuum of Starks- Robb will be dead, Bran and Rickon presumed dead as well as a missing Arya.

And we also have to keep in mind this is not an ideal scenario for patience- Tywin's hand was forced by the Tyrells who he couldn't risk outright defying but needed to stop them from claiming Sansa.  

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4 hours ago, Tagganaro said:

I think it makes sense and may actually be a scenario where Tywin is trying to throw Tyrion a bone so to speak.  From Tywins perspective re Tyrion, he's not giving Tyrion Casterly Rock and outside of Master of Coin Tyrion doesn't really have much of a role to play.  From Tywin's perspective re the North he sees the vacuum of Starks- Robb will be dead, Bran and Rickon presumed dead as well as a missing Arya.

And we also have to keep in mind this is not an ideal scenario for patience- Tywin's hand was forced by the Tyrells who he couldn't risk outright defying but needed to stop them from claiming Sansa.  

Never thought of it like that.

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