“Wed her, bed her, put a child in her”... what are you thinking, Tywin?

[Universal Sword Donor]

5 hours ago, Tagganaro said:

I think it makes sense and may actually be a scenario where Tywin is trying to throw Tyrion a bone so to speak.  From Tywins perspective re Tyrion, he's not giving Tyrion Casterly Rock and outside of Master of Coin Tyrion doesn't really have much of a role to play.  From Tywin's perspective re the North he sees the vacuum of Starks- Robb will be dead, Bran and Rickon presumed dead as well as a missing Arya.

And we also have to keep in mind this is not an ideal scenario for patience- Tywin's hand was forced by the Tyrells who he couldn't risk outright defying but needed to stop them from claiming Sansa.  

Well I mean, he says as much:

“You asked me to reward you for your efforts in the battle,” Lord Tywin reminded him forcefully. “This is a chance for you, Tyrion, the best you are ever likely to have.”

He's definitely doing it to make sure the North is brought into the fold eventually. The entire passage leads me to believe that the benefit to Tyrion is a byproduct of securing the north rather than a primary (or even secondary) aim. Kill two birds with one stone, as it were

[punzerknacker]

Tywin is manipulating Tyrion into going along with his plan that will benefit Tywin. He's not doing anything for Tyrion's sake. Never has, never will... He knows Tyrion won't scoff at a beautiful bride, and no matter how much Tyrion insists that she is a child, as soon as they are married it becomes very apparent that he is sexually attracted to her. Tywin saying 'you should thank me for doing one (1) nice thing for you in your entire life' is just him being a manipulative dad...

[The Sleeper]

One objective is to get Sansa out of the marriage market.

Second is to humiliate the Starks, as they have humiliated him in the field.

Third is to have Tyrion killed. Tywin can't lawfully disinherit Tyrion, so he plans lure him North to Roose's welcoming arms. The reason he doesn't kill him outright is because he feared it would lead to a breach with Jaime.

[Bernie Mac]

10 hours ago, The Sleeper said:

One objective is to get Sansa out of the marriage market.

That is the only real reason. 

10 hours ago, The Sleeper said:

Second is to humiliate the Starks, as they have humiliated him in the field.

Hardly. When was Tywin humiliated in the field by a Stark? 

10 hours ago, The Sleeper said:

Third is to have Tyrion killed.

No, that seems counter productive. If Tywin wanted him dead he would be dead by now, he certainly would not have given him a hugely powerful and influential role on the small council. 

Tyrion, thanks to his father's nepotism, is the most powerful and influential who has ever lived or likely to live in Westeros. Tywin has gone above and beyond in raising Tyrion' station, he has not done this in the hope to kill him off. 

10 hours ago, The Sleeper said:

Tywin can't lawfully disinherit Tyrion, so he plans lure him North to Roose's welcoming arms. The reason he doesn't kill him outright is because he feared it would lead to a breach with Jaime.

That seems a waste of Sansa's marriage. He wants the realm united, Tyrion being the lord protector of the North and having an active role in raising his children, the future rulers of Winterfell.  in the North is an important part of his long term planning to secure peace in the realm. This all being an elaborate plan to off his son Tyrion is just a complete waster, he could have found other ways to do that and had Sansa marry Daven, Lancel or some other Lannister. 

[The Sleeper]

6 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

Hardly. When was Tywin humiliated in the field by a Stark? 

He lost half his troops and Robb who was fifteen at the start of the campaign played him like a fiddle twice and captured Jaime.

 

6 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

No, that seems counter productive. If Tywin wanted him dead he would be dead by now, he certainly would not have given him a hugely powerful and influential role on the small council. 

He has already put Tyrion in situations where he is likely to be killed. As for why not killing him directly.

 

6 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

Tywin has gone above and beyond in raising Tyrion' station, he has not done this in the hope to kill him off. 

Since he survived, he might as well make use of him. As to how this turned up to be in a city under siege where he suffered one assassination attempt. When he came to King's Landing he stripped Tyrion of all his power and placed him in the hot seat of master of coin and then made unreasonable demands.

As for nepotism, Tyrion is his heir. The positions he gave him was as a proxy and a hot potato. By rights he should have been at his side making decisions all this time. Tyrion's station as heir of Casterly Rock is actually very high on its own.

6 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

That seems a waste of Sansa's marriage. He wants the realm united, Tyrion being the lord protector of the North and having an active role in raising his children, the future rulers of Winterfell.  in the North is an important part of his long term planning to secure peace in the realm. This all being an elaborate plan to off his son Tyrion is just a complete waster, he could have found other ways to do that and had Sansa marry Daven, Lancel or some other Lannister. 

While that is true, establishing Tyrion in the North after he has already made plans with Bolton who is well established is downright delusional. Notice that he doesn't promise Tyrion the Crown's support, which Bolton already has or troops. Tyrion at that point doesn't even know the arrangements he made with Bolton. As it stands Tyrion and Sansa would have been shortly after they set foot in the North.

The point is not to give Tyrion the North, but to have him out of the way or dead so that he won't press his claim on Casterly Rock which is irrefutable.

As for Sansa, I agree that it is wasteful. He could have married to Genna's grandkid whose the heir to Riverrun and thus help secure it. He could have offered her to Lysa to help secure her allegiance. She would make a pretty good bride for the heir to the Rock, even. Or he could have given her to Bolton instead of making up a fake Arya. The truth is he preffered to dispose of her and fast.

[Bernie Mac]

8 hours ago, The Sleeper said:

He lost half his troops

he actually did not. Jaime has 15k, 4k of which retreat safely back to the Westerlands being unable to battle due to being on the wrong side of the River. 

Of the remaining number we have no idea how many survived were killed by Robb and the Freys or who were killed in the battles at the Golden Tooth or the first battle at Riverrun. 

Soldiers die in battles, that is part and parcel of warfare, no one in Westeros' regards Jaime to have been humiliated and certainly no one thinks Tywin has been 'humiliated on the field' by Robb.

 

Your argument would look far more valid if you did not engage in needless hyperbole to make a point. 

8 hours ago, The Sleeper said:

and Robb who was fifteen at the start of the campaign played him like a fiddle twice and captured Jaime.

well, not really. Tywin played himself when he wrongly judged that the North would not get involved (with Ned still being  a prisoner) and thinking the Freys would remain neutral. 

however when it comes down to two realms vs one no one is expecting the 'one' to easily win. 

8 hours ago, The Sleeper said:

 

He has already put Tyrion in situations where he is likely to be killed.

well no, this is not entirely true. It was the Mountain Clans who demanded that Tyrion fight with them, Tywin offered him other positions such as guarding the baggage train, which Tyrion turned down. 

Tywin was no more trying to kill Tyrion than he was Jaime or Kevan who were also given positions in the war. 

8 hours ago, The Sleeper said:

Since he survived, he might as well make use of him. As to how this turned up to be in a city under siege where he suffered one assassination attempt.

eh? Kings Landing was not under siege when Tyrion arrived. 

8 hours ago, The Sleeper said:

When he came to King's Landing he stripped Tyrion of all his power

No, he did not but as Tywin was there Tyrion, who was in a coma at the time, was no longer needed to be the acting Hand. 

What did you expect to happen? the Government come to a halt because Tyrion was ill? 

8 hours ago, The Sleeper said:

and placed him in the hot seat of master of coin

You are being utterly ridiculous if you are trying to turn Tywin making Tyrion a member of the small council as some kind of negative. 

8 hours ago, The Sleeper said:

 

and then made unreasonable demands.

what unreasonable demands? the marriage of one of the most sought after women in the realm? 

8 hours ago, The Sleeper said:

As for nepotism, Tyrion is his heir. The positions he gave him was as a proxy and a hot potato. By rights he should have been at his side making decisions all this time.

According to who? Can you quote where this is a right? 

You seem to be confused on this matter, heirs do not have the right to rule. 

 

8 hours ago, The Sleeper said:

 

Tyrion's station as heir of Casterly Rock is actually very high on its own.

Sure, but being made acting Hand and a seat on the Small Council are also incredibly high, unprecedented for a dwarf. 

Tyrion has been a huge benefactor of his father's nepotism. 

8 hours ago, The Sleeper said:

While that is true, establishing Tyrion in the North after he has already made plans with Bolton who is well established is downright delusional.

No, it really is not. Tywin is under the impression that the Boltons will not be particularly loved in the North, from what we have seen in ADWD he has a point. 

 

8 hours ago, The Sleeper said:

Notice that he doesn't promise Tyrion the Crown's support,

why would he need to? Tywin would rather his own grandson rule the north, the offer there is implicit. 

8 hours ago, The Sleeper said:

 

which Bolton already has or troops. Tyrion at that point doesn't even know the arrangements he made with Bolton.

Sure he does, Roose being Warden is not a secret. 

8 hours ago, The Sleeper said:

The point is not to give Tyrion the North, but to have him out of the way or dead so that he won't press his claim on Casterly Rock which is irrefutable.

Tyrion's actually in a stronger position to press the claim of the Rock once he is established in the North with healthy heirs of his own. 

Tywin, by making him Master of Coin and a Stark bride has made Tyrion's position stronger, not weaker, should he have tried to claim the Rock after Tywin's death. 

By allowing him to be a single playboy wasting his time whoring and drinking around the realm his chances of ever getting the Rock were slim with or without Tywin's support 

 

[Angel Eyes]

On 6/28/2018 at 5:53 PM, Universal Sword Donor said:

Well I mean, he says as much:

“You asked me to reward you for your efforts in the battle,” Lord Tywin reminded him forcefully. “This is a chance for you, Tyrion, the best you are ever likely to have.”

 

I always thought Tywin was being sarcastic with that.

[Universal Sword Donor]

1 hour ago, Angel Eyes said:

I always thought Tywin was being sarcastic with that.

The first part would read like that if the second part wasn't there. It's just condescending as hell.

[zandru]

A "risky business" for Sansa? Not a  bug - a feature! So Sansa produces a Lannister baby and dies. There's a better than 50% chance the infant will be male and hence the Heir to the North, which includes Winterfell. And the last of the Starks is permanently out of the way. Lions win! Cue "the Reynes of Castamere".

[Tianzi]

On 6/26/2018 at 10:04 PM, Angel Eyes said:

So I’m a bit perplexed in what Tywin is thinking in having Sansa marry Tyrion. 

1. She’s 12 and barely started menstuating. It’s just feels wrong to have a pubescent girl marry someone more than twice her age. As Jon Arryn’s marriage to Lysa Arryn proved, having a husband and wife who are more than 10 years apart is a bad idea, since couples at different ages have different needs, for both the body and the heart.
2. Having Tyrion bed her and put a child in her is a very risky business. The best example I can think of is Margaret Beaufort, the mother of Henry Tudor (later Henry VII of England). She gave birth at 13, and never successfully carried another child after that. If it’s a girl and Sansa can’t have more children, Tywin’s plan to continue his male line has failed. And the child would never hear the end of it from Tywin if it was a dwarf.

About the age difference:

a. I don't think that Tywin was terribly concerned about the quality of marital life of Sansa and Tyrion.

b. I don't know why putting 10-years difference and Lysa and Jon Arryn in the same sentence. He wasn't Tyrion-older than her, he was old AF. If he were 10-15 years older than Lysa, he'd have been 25-30, and if he were attractive to boot, history could've gone waaaay differently. Ditto for Sansa herself and her marriage project to Willas Tyrell. Actually, however creepily it might sound, an adult, thinking man could be a better political husband material than a horny teenager, as he would know better how to keep his child bride happy and whore his needs away until she's good to procreate with.

For health issues, yes, but:

a. Was there a better option? Sansa was officially considered 'marriageable', so she was like a ticking bomb. Someone on the Lannister side needed to claim her. I suppose that Tywin could've even given choose to give this 'risky', underdeveloped material for a wife to Tyrion on purpose, since Tyrion's potential descendants mattered less for him.

b. Whomever Tyrion would impregnate, there was a risk, because of the dwarfism. Since Sansa's family wasn't in a position to protest, it was likely the only chance indeed to get Tyrion suitably married off.

[Tianzi]

Btw, in hindsight, it would have been interesting if they gave her to Tommen. Of course that's impossible because of her disgrace as a traitor's daugther, but:

a. the consummation would be put off because of HIS age,

b. Olenna Tyrell wouldn't be able to just kill Joffrey off if there was no spare for Marg.

[BRANDON GREYSTARK]

On ‎6‎/‎26‎/‎2018 at 4:04 PM, Angel Eyes said:

So I’m a bit perplexed in what Tywin is thinking in having Sansa marry Tyrion. 

1. She’s 12 and barely started menstuating. It’s just feels wrong to have a pubescent girl marry someone more than twice her age. As Jon Arryn’s marriage to Lysa Arryn proved, having a husband and wife who are more than 10 years apart is a bad idea, since couples at different ages have different needs, for both the body and the heart.
2. Having Tyrion bed her and put a child in her is a very risky business. The best example I can think of is Margaret Beaufort, the mother of Henry Tudor (later Henry VII of England). She gave birth at 13, and never successfully carried another child after that. If it’s a girl and Sansa can’t have more children, Tywin’s plan to continue his male line has failed. And the child would never hear the end of it from Tywin if it was a dwarf.

Tywin didn't care , he wanted only wanted the North for the Lannisters a baby would have done that .

[Varysblackfyre321]

On July 3, 2018 at 3:00 PM, Tianzi said:

b. I don't know why putting 10-years difference and Lysa and Jon Arryn in the same sentence. He wasn't Tyrion-older than her, he was old AF. If he were 10-15 years older than Lysa, he'd have been 25-30, and if he were attractive to boot, history could've gone waaaay differently. Ditto for Sansa herself and her marriage project to Willas Tyrell. Actually, however creepily it might sound, an adult, thinking man could be a better political husband material than a horny teenager, as he would know better how to keep his child bride happy and whore his needs away until she's good to procreate with.

 

Unlikely, an adult nobleman would know or very much care in keeping his child-bride happy-marriage isn't about happiness, in this world  amongst the elite it's a duty; .  And usually, the husband in most respects beds his child-wife as soon as their married regardless of whether or not she's good to procreate with-which in most cases is 11 or 12-Sansa by the time she's married Tyrion is 13, the perfect age to bear children in this medeval society. 

Tyrion himself isn't really better equipped to make his child-bride happg(nor was her happiness his motivation in accepting Tywin's offer), as we see Tyrion whose  real romantic experiences with women is mostly him just paying them for sex, is extremely awkward around Sansa.

And Tyrion is a dwarf; making her by having married him somewhat of an object of ridicule and pity; there's a reason why Tywin has consistently found it difficult to find a socially acceptable marriage arrangement for Tyrion. Everytime she's seen with Tyrion would be a moment of embarrassment.

[Varysblackfyre321]

On July 3, 2018 at 3:00 PM, Tianzi said:

e a better option? Sansa was officially considered 'marriageable', so she was like a ticking bomb. Someone on the Lannister side needed to claim her. I suppose that Tywin could've even given choose to give this 'risky', underdeveloped material for a wife to Tyrion on purpose, since Tyrion's potential descendants mattered less for him.

 

Any of Tyrion's male cousins would probably would be preferble to Sansa and reduce the risk of any percieved "deformity. 

Sansa is the key to securing the north towards the lanisters; she's important.

[Angel Eyes]

1 hour ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

Any of Tyrion's male cousins would probably would be preferble to Sansa and reduce the risk of any percieved "deformity. 

Sansa is the key to securing the north towards the lanisters; she's important.

So why didn’t Tywin give Sansa to them? 

[Angel Eyes]

10 hours ago, BRANDON GREYSTARK said:

Tywin didn't care , he wanted only wanted the North for the Lannisters a baby would have done that .

And if the baby was a girl or a dwarf?

[Varysblackfyre321]

13 minutes ago, Angel Eyes said:

So why didn’t Tywin give Sansa to them? 

Because Tyrion said yes? Tywin makes very clear should Tyrion refuse, he'd select another lanister male; ultimately, I do think he genuily wanted to reward Tyrion for his service, and thought being lord-protector of Winter-fell and control of the north would suffice; and it is high time Tyrion was properly married; the other lanister males won't find near the amount of difficulty in finding an appropriate match. 

And perhaps Tywin genuily didn't think he could he be so unlucky as to have a dwarf son and grandson. 

[Giant Ice Spider]

16 minutes ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

And perhaps Tywin genuily didn't think he could he be so unlucky as to have a dwarf son and grandson. 

Hey Dad, I have a uh, 'little' bit of news for you … turns out the um, the apple never falls far from the tree...

[Tianzi]

2 hours ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

Unlikely, an adult nobleman would know or very much care in keeping his child-bride happy-marriage isn't about happiness, in this world  amongst the elite it's a duty; .  And usually, the husband in most respects beds his child-wife as soon as their married regardless of whether or not she's good to procreate with-which in most cases is 11 or 12-Sansa by the time she's married Tyrion is 13, the perfect age to bear children in this medeval society.  

Tyrion himself isn't really better equipped to make his child-bride happg(nor was her happiness his motivation in accepting Tywin's offer), as we see Tyrion whose  real romantic experiences with women is mostly him just paying them for sex, is extremely awkward around Sansa.

And Tyrion is a dwarf; making her by having married him somewhat of an object of ridicule and pity; there's a reason why Tywin has consistently found it difficult to find a socially acceptable marriage arrangement for Tyrion. Everytime she's seen with Tyrion would be a moment of embarrassment.

Yes, Tyrion was ill-equipped, I was talkind about age difference in general. Willas Tyrell would probably handle it better.

Sansa is 12 when she marries Tyrion.

Lysa was 15, Cat was 17, Cersei also 17-ish, Roslin Frey similarly, Margaery - considered the most eligible bride in the kingdom at her time - 16 (maybe 15 when she married Renly). Lyanna was 14 and still unmarried. Asha is in her twenties. Elia Martell was 15 and unmarried in Cersei's flashback. I'd say at least recently, the standard in-story was NOT 12-13 (only for betrothal). Daenerys is an exception, but he's given away by Viserys, who makes clear how much he cares about her as anything other than a bargaining chip.

[Varysblackfyre321]

5 minutes ago, Tianzi said:

Yes, Tyrion was ill-equipped, I was talkind about age difference in general. Willas Tyrell would probably handle it better.

Possibly Willias could make Sansa happier than a teenage boy. Possibly not. Her overall happiness can be catered to by his female kin and the many servents of highgarden. With a teenage boy, atleast there there may be some hormonal desire to impress his new wife. 

11 minutes ago, Tianzi said:

 

Sansa is 12 when she marries Tyrion.

An error. 12 is still acceptable. 

15 minutes ago, Tianzi said:

Yes, Tyrion was ill-equipped, I was talkind about age difference in general. Willas Tyrell would probably handle it better.

Sansa is 12 when she marries Tyrion.

Lysa was 15, Cat was 17, Cersei also 17-ish, Roslin Frey similarly, Margaery - considered the most eligible bride in the kingdom at her time - 16 (maybe 15 when she married Renly). Lyanna was 14 and still unmarried. Asha is in her twenties. Elia Martell was 15 and unmarried in Cersei's flashback. I'd say at least recently, the standard in-story was NOT 12-13 (only for betrothal). Daenerys is an exception, but he's given away by Viserys, who makes clear how much he cares about her as anything other than a bargaining chip.

Asha should have already had children at this point-it's only by the grace of her father she's been able to skirt her duties of being a lady; duties such as  marrying, and giving birth. Even Alysane jibes Asha about  not having yet had any children. And likely the Tyrells would have married and bedded Sansa immediately and tried to get pregnant as soon as possible

Daenarys, Sansa, and Jeyne Poole whose being passed off as Arya-out of the many outrages to the Bolton marriage her stated age isn't really brought up as a complaint.  Lyanna was expected to marry Robert shortly. 

Powerful families can wait a couple years for their daughters till a better offer is made but it's not really illegal or improper for them to do so. 

12+ was the acceptable age for girls to be married off in in Middleage age England. 

Ultimately, my point is clear; Sansa is going to be seen in this world as the apropiate age to procreate. She's able to get pregnant. I do not see any nobleman adult or teenager holding off on 12 year child bride when she is already capable physically at getting pregnant.