U.S. Politics-Hope Floats 2: We All Float Down Here

[Jace, Extat]

The last 3 years have been like one long Zach Snyder Superman adaptation.

[Jace, Extat]

3 minutes ago, el tío de Vale(ncia) said:

@chiKanery et al.

First they came for the Muslims, but I stayed civil, because I'm not a Muslim.

Then they came for the refugee children, but I stayed civil, because I'm not from Central America.

Then they came for the people of color but I stayed civil, because I am white.

Then they came for me, but there was noone left to become uncivil on my behalf.

 

Fight, Tywin. Fight for your life.

 

@Everybody else: As discouraging as this is, you still have one chance at at least restricting Trump. It's the very last one: Vote in the midterms. Get your liberal friends to vote, too. Check you're actually registered to vote beforehand. Don't let the Republicans get away with this without massive losses in the house (and hopefully, Senate) at the very least.

To what point and purpose do you burden these poor souls? What exactly would taking back the House accomplish? Or even the Senate? And Trump is already spinning his web to draw out the pig fuckers for the midterms. Any advantage Dem's might have hoped for is as dead as Union financial prospects.

The country is broken, let it go.

[The guy from the Vale]

Because that gives you at least one check against Trump. One way his horrible legislation doesn't get rubber-stamped. One body that will see the Mueller investigation continues.

 

Because for all the brokenness of the country, handing total control to the fascists and theocrats would be worse. You still managed to elect Obama just 6 years ago. You might defeat Trump in two years. But you will only do so if your legislatures and state legislatures stop the current power grab, and you have precisely one last chance at getting control of them. Use it. You may fail, but you need to try or you're lost.

[Jace, Extat]

4 minutes ago, el tío de Vale(ncia) said:

Because that gives you at least one check against Trump. One way his horrible legislation doesn't get rubber-stamped. One body that will see the Mueller investigation continues.

 

Because for all the brokenness of the country, handing total control to the fascists and theocrats would be worse. You still managed to elect Obama just 6 years ago. You might defeat Trump in two years. But you will only do so if your legislatures and state legislatures stop the current power grab, and you have precisely one last chance at getting control of them. Use it. You may fail, but you need to try or you're lost.

Already lost, silly. SCOTUS will invalidate any move to undo Trumpism, the electorate will continue to reward R's for 'being tough' while punishing 'obstructionist Dems', and it only get worse from here as Unions crumble and wealth continues to consolidate at the top.

[The guy from the Vale]

Choices mtter, and your vote never mattered more than now. Don't give in to despair, Jace. That's precisely what the Republicans want you to do. If you give up now and don't vote when you have one last chance at stopping them, you're complicit in their success. Don't give in, as tempting as that may feel, or you're just as complicit in your own downfall as Tywin with his calls for civility.

 

Here, have a Yale history professor and expert on the rise of fascism explain this to you:

https://youtu.be/Eghl19elKk8

[Relic]

26 minutes ago, Jace, The Sugarcube said:

Already lost, silly. SCOTUS will invalidate any move to undo Trumpism, the electorate will continue to reward R's for 'being tough' while punishing 'obstructionist Dems', and it only get worse from here as Unions crumble and wealth continues to consolidate at the top.

Sure, i agree, but still...

 

VOTE. FUCKING VOTE AND GET OTHERS TO VOTE. Or stop posting about politics. 

[Jace, Extat]

1 minute ago, el tío de Vale(ncia) said:

Choices mtter, and your vote never mattered more than now. Don't give in to despair, Jace. That's precisely what the Republicans want you to do. If you give up now and don't vote when you have one last chance at stopping them, you're complicit in their success. Don't give in, as tempting as that may feel, or you're just as complicit in your own downfall as Tywin with his calls for civility.

 

Here, have a Yale history professor and expert on the rise of fascism explain this to you:

https://youtu.be/Eghl19elKk8

Nice video, I liked it.

Unfortunately no matter how much responsibility I'm ready to accept (might surprise you, too) it takes 2 to dance. There's a reason he was vague about what 'accepting responsibility' entails, it's because he didn't want to be on Youtube advocating for a long term militant resistance to the United States government.

See, my 'fatalism' as The Alt-Targ called it isn't born of exhaustive outrage at the endless injustices. It's a sober assessment of the situation borne of extensive prognostication regarding the forces at work and where their effects lead. It actually wasn't that long ago that I was the one trying to rally the troops, I only finished my assessment around April. And I only accepted it in May.

The real kicker is that it's hard to get mad at the Righties. Why should they come to the table at this point? They've won. Bargaining now would be absurd.

And @Relic, my answer is "no". I'm gonna vote of course, but I'm not gonna stop following and posting about the state of the U.S. political landscape. I get bored.

[Kalbear]

14 minutes ago, Relic said:

Sure, i agree, but still...

 

VOTE. FUCKING VOTE AND GET OTHERS TO VOTE. Or stop posting about politics. 

Can you legally actually vote any more?

[Relic]

1 minute ago, كالدب said:

Can you legally actually vote any more?

Yup

 

edit - but who are you, and why do you ask hahah

[Relic]

2 minutes ago, Jace, The Sugarcube said:

And @Relic, my answer is "no". I'm gonna vote of course, but I'm not gonna stop following and posting about the state of the U.S. political landscape. I get bored.

We're all like keyboard warriors, shouting into the abyss, and every single one of us that doesn't do something to influence the midterms should forever have posting privileges on these topics revoked. It also strikes me that voting itself is not enough. If i was in the States this October id volunteer some time in an area where voting blue mattered. Since I'm not i will be donating to Swing Left and brow beating my friends back "home" to do more than just talk about the dark future that most likely await us all. 

[Kalbear]

7 minutes ago, Relic said:

We're all like keyboard warriors, shouting into the abyss, and every single one of us that doesn't do something to influence the midterms should forever have posting privileges on these topics revoked. It also strikes me that voting itself is not enough. If i was in the States this October id volunteer some time in an area where voting blue mattered. Since I'm not i will be donating to Swing Left and brow beating my friends back "home" to do more than just talk about the dark future that most likely await us all. 

Yeah, it's just hard for me to really get worked up about some expat shouting at us to vote when they aren't remotely affected by things going on in the US any more, or criticizing those reactions (or decisions) of people here. 

Chickens don't get to tell the pigs if bacon's on the menu or not. 

[Relic]

2 minutes ago, كالدب said:

Yeah, it's just hard for me to really get worked up about some expat shouting at us to vote when they aren't remotely affected by things going on in the US any more, or criticizing those reactions (or decisions) of people here. 

Chickens don't get to tell the pigs if bacon's on the menu or not. 

And if you don't like my words, if they dont motivate you, dont listen to them. Listen to someone who WILL motivate you, and do something to make the future not as terrible as it seems it will be. Attacking me for caring is so G Vico circa 2002. 

[Jace, Extat]

7 minutes ago, Relic said:

We're all like keyboard warriors, shouting into the abyss, and every single one of us that doesn't do something to influence the midterms should forever have posting privileges on these topics revoked. It also strikes me that voting itself is not enough. If i was in the States this October id volunteer some time in an area where voting blue mattered. Since I'm not i will be donating to Swing Left and brow beating my friends back "home" to do more than just talk about the dark future that most likely await us all. 

I think I've moved from 'keyboard warrior' to 'bemused bystander', if we're being fair. We could have made a difference, I think. But when one party gets to make, change, and break the rules at whim with no repercussion. Well, it's actually surprising the fight wasn't a complete asswhipping.

Like I said last night, we were on the wrong side of history. Somebody's gotta lose.

[Ran]

26 minutes ago, كالدب said:

Yeah, it's just hard for me to really get worked up about some expat shouting at us to vote when they aren't remotely affected by things going on in the US any more

The situation in the U.S. is a global problem. As a dual citizen of the U.S. and Sweden,  with most of my family in the U.S., I'm certainly affected. Not as much as those who actually live there, no, but I'm affected. And as a citizen, I'll vote, and I'll do what I can. I suspect most expats (who, BTW, will be able to vote so long as they hold American citizenship, which is generally a life-long status :P) also feel like they're affected by the situation in the U.S., both through the ancillary effects on family still there, and because of whatever disruptions are happening to global diplomacy, trade, etc. 

 

[Relic]

22 minutes ago, Jace, The Sugarcube said:

 Well, it's actually surprising the fight wasn't a complete asswhipping.

 

It's not that surprising, because we still have a ton of people who care enough to fight. Yes, it all looks rather bleak, and yes we're probably going to lose, but that doesn't mean we shouldn't fight. I just put my money where my mouth is by donating to Swing Left, and I'm willing to do much more. And frankly, we all should spend less time bickering on twitter or whatnot and more time on actionable errr...action. I aim that at myself as much as i do anyone else. 

[Jace, Extat]

You mistake me, Relic. It's not that I won't/Can't/don't want to fight, it's that there's nothing left to fight for. I'll resist, don't doubt that. But selling folks a lie about the end of the story is something I cannot be party to. 

Fascism or all out revolt are the two options, and Americans simply will not revolt. Not in numbers large enough to make a difference.

[OldGimletEye]

Responding to @Frog Eater

Quote

Re: Civility

The message from the GOP in coming months is that the left is "unhinged". 

Here is a GOP advertisement, using the left's own words against them. 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eFRHX6glTSM

You want to make people sympathize with the Trump administration? Then keep screaming at his cabinet members in restaurants, keep screaming NAZI and BIGOT every time someone supports his presidency. The left has become the party of chicken little. When everything is racist, or the end of the world, nothing is. 

Well, lets understand here that the new found conservative appreciation for "civility" is disingenuous and is not in good faith. If conservatives truly have fallen in love with civility they can first demonstrate it by doing it, rather than talking about it. But, you know, there is no reason for people on the left to trust conservatives on this matter. This latest new appreciation for civility by conservatives is nothing but newest bogus conservative grievance.

People on the left who fret too much about civility because of conservative belly aching about it are going to end up being suckers. Now, you know, I really don't like being a sucker, even if I've been gullible enough to buy a bridge on occasion.

People on the left can be as civil as they want and the Republicans and conservatives are still going to make advertisements smearing people on the left. I mean this whole idea of "well we better become more civil or the Republican Party will say really mean stuff about us.." is nonsense. Rather than worrying about what the Republican Party might do if we don't become more civil, perhaps we should just smear the Republican Party right back. And the thing is that we wouldn't have to deviate fare from the truth to do it. I'm sure it wouldn't be very hard to come up with ad showing Republicans and conservatives saying very uncivil things and then juxtaposing that with their new found appreciation of civility, demonstrating both their hypocrisy and cynicism.

I'd point out at this juncture that being uncivil is not necessarily the same thing as becoming bat shit crazy or unhinged, which has been the state of the Republican Party and the conservative movement for years. And pointing that out, in no uncertain terms, and repeatedly hammering that point home, doesn't seem to me to be a particularly problem, even if it often comes off as uncivil.

Now believe it or not I'm not a fan of always using the word NAZI, Bigot, or Racist every time I've encountered a Trump supporter, particularly if said person is amenable to changing their views about Trump or the situation our country finds itself in. Whether I use those words depends on the situation. Awhile a back this guy I know, who supported Trump, complained about his African Friend getting the cops called on him. Now when he made that comment to me I could have led off with something like, "Well, if your so worried about it, why did your racist dumb ass vote for Trump?" But, that would haven't gotten exactly nowhere. Instead I just said that kind of thing happens way too often and that we incarcerate way too many African Americans in this country and let him chew on that awhile.

From my perspective, it doesn't seem remotely rational how a person could complain about his friend having the cops called on him while having voting for Trump. But, I suppose it's probably helpful to remember people aren't always completely rational actors. Also it's probably helpful to remember that the racism or prejudice that we encounter isn't always the sheet wearing and cross burning kind. There are many kinds and levels. Sometimes it's just a matter of the person being oblivious and having blind spots about particular issues. And how we respond to it, should I think, depend on the exact form we are encountering. Sometimes yelling Nazi or Bigot is appropriate. Other times it isn't the best way to get a point across. I don't believe in always calling in for Napalm, when a pea shooter might do the trick.

The other piece to this is that a lot of folks simply don't pay attention to politics the way many on this board do. Yes, it's true things would probably be better if they did. But it's a bit understandable that many people don't when they have jobs and families to raise. So long as these type of folks are willing to reconsider their views about Trump I'm willing to engage with them civilly, even if I find it a bit frustrating they haven't made up their minds by now. I won't throw away votes unnecessarily. 

In addition, often my ire and anger is directed towards Republican politicians, it's leadership, it's donor class, and it's opinion makers. Also  add "both siders" too. These people are much less deserving of civility. They have the ability to shape the opinions of the average Republican and yet have allowed the Republican Party and the conservative movement to drive off a cliff into insanity. They, in my opinion, deserve some pretty harsh words for what they have done and their refusal to acknowledge the problem with Trump and the current Republican Party in no uncertain terms. They should know better or maybe they do know better and are just being bullshit artist for whatever reason. And I think it's pretty apparent, at this juncture, that this bunch will make very nasty commercials about liberals whether liberals become "civil" or not. With this bunch, I think it's about time the gloves came off.

[DMC]

2 hours ago, Jace, The Sugarcube said:

To what point and purpose do you burden these poor souls? What exactly would taking back the House accomplish? Or even the Senate? And Trump is already spinning his web to draw out the pig fuckers for the midterms. Any advantage Dem's might have hoped for is as dead as Union financial prospects.

The country is broken, let it go.

 

2 hours ago, Jace, The Sugarcube said:

Already lost, silly. SCOTUS will invalidate any move to undo Trumpism, the electorate will continue to reward R's for 'being tough' while punishing 'obstructionist Dems', and it only get worse from here as Unions crumble and wealth continues to consolidate at the top.

 

1 hour ago, Jace, The Sugarcube said:

See, my 'fatalism' as The Alt-Targ called it isn't born of exhaustive outrage at the endless injustices. It's a sober assessment of the situation borne of extensive prognostication regarding the forces at work and where their effects lead. It actually wasn't that long ago that I was the one trying to rally the troops, I only finished my assessment around April. And I only accepted it in May.

It takes a rather shallow view of American politics (and understanding of respective capacities regarding institutional checks) to think regaining control of either chamber in Congress is utterly pointless while the retirement of one justice means things are already lost.  I mean, maybe it'd be more of an impact if Kennedy's "swing" status was legitimate, but both quantitatively and qualitatively, it hasn't been worth much at all for awhile.  As already mentioned, in all 5-4 cases split along ideological lines this term, Kennedy voted with the conservatives - and this extends to the previous term:

Quote

The majority of the Court has been conservative since the early Burger Court and so all of the justices examined in this post retired from a Court with a conservative majority.  The liberal voting justices in the figure above dissented more than 50% of the time in cases decided by one vote in their final terms, while the more conservative justices are all below the 50% line.  Justice Kennedy though is the only justice to not dissent in a final term (2016 is the last completed term and so it is the basis for this analysis of Justice Kennedy but note that Justice Kennedy has already dissented in two such decisions for the 2017 term – Dimaya and Artis.)

BTW, those two recent cases he did dissent in - Dimaya and Artis - were decided in favor of the liberal block in which another conservative justice - Gorsuch and Roberts, respectively - joined the liberals for the majority, instead of Kennedy.

Look, it's been a pretty damn depressing few days.  If you wanna get outraged or light your hair on fire or say fuck this country or even if you want to give up, no one can blame you.  But don't tell people to "let it go," or the "fight is over," and frame it in the guise that you've figured something out that others haven't.  Because if you didn't realize SCOTUS was poised to uphold (this version of) Trump's travel ban or continue their assault on labor rights (both with Kennedy's support) or it was incredibly likely that Trump was going to get to replace Kennedy's seat, then it's you that hasn't been paying attention.  And simply decrying "the fight is over, they've already won" belies a certain ignorance about the history of American politics and particularly the frequent and volatile electoral swings we've seen over the past quarter century.  The fight is never over.

[karaddin]

1 hour ago, Switzeran said:

The situation in the U.S. is a global problem. As a dual citizen of the U.S. and Sweden,  with most of my family in the U.S., I'm certainly affected. Not as much as those who actually live there, no, but I'm affected. And as a citizen, I'll vote, and I'll do what I can. I suspect most expats (who, BTW, will be able to vote so long as they hold American citizenship, which is generally a life-long status :P) also feel like they're affected by the situation in the U.S., both through the ancillary effects on family still there, and because of whatever disruptions are happening to global diplomacy, trade, etc. 

 

Yup (minus the citizen/voting part). The US has been the global hegemon. There isn't a person on this planet not affected by the outcome of this. And as someone forced to be a bystander, who has a lot of people I love in the US, watching the country slide into fascism is fucking terrifying. Best case if it continues is decay into ruin, worst case is you decide to use all the military might against external targets.

53 minutes ago, Jace, The Sugarcube said:

You mistake me, Relic. It's not that I won't/Can't/don't want to fight, it's that there's nothing left to fight for. I'll resist, don't doubt that. But selling folks a lie about the end of the story is something I cannot be party to. 

Fascism or all out revolt are the two options, and Americans simply will not revolt. Not in numbers large enough to make a difference.

This is the only part of the equation I find myself able to hang onto even a shred of hope. The system is broken and not going to save us, its just going to be broken even further before 2020. Look back on the conversations from late 2016/early 2017 - this has been coming for a while now and while more people are willing to see it, there are still those that fucking stand up and crow about civility like its not getting close to the point where the killing starts. But no, you can't protest in a way that would slightly inconvenience someones car trip (different, probably troll, poster I know but still). 

[butterbumps!]

What's the overall value of a conservative court, anyway?  It just seems to be against the overwhelmingly vast majority's economic interests such that I'm unclear why it's such a strong rallying point for conservatives (especially with all that "economic anxiety" rationalization this past election).  I understand that they want bigoted policies and/ or are anti-choice, but I guess my question is whether they rally for the courts unaware of how bad it is for them economically, or in spite of it, because they just hate abortion and/ or civil rights that much?  Like it's worth it to them to get rid of abortion even if they lose their union benefits or consumer/ worker protections, or do they not understand that's what will happen?