Southron Ambitions question/observation

[The WolfSpider]

Since I'm, regrettably, not sleeping I'm wasting time and cell battery reading ASOIAF material and something occurs to me that I've never seen mentioned anywhere. 

Could Lord Rickard's Southron Ambitions be Lyanna becoming Queen? 

I know about the alliances between the war buddies and all but that's not really ambition is it? Even if they're trying to unseat the Mad King, that's a means to an end. 

We know Lyanna & Rhaegar had something going on clearly,  could her father have been at the root of it?

What else could he have truly desired?

Tywin's standoffishness makes good sense since he had similar ambitions.  I don't know why Hoster wouldn't have the same goal though, not that this was likely the goal of the whole alliance but more like Rickard's.

[Giant Ice Spider]

An interesting idea.

So Rickard would marry Lyanna to Robert, and then make Robert king? Or are you suggesting Rickard wanted Rhaegar to run off with Lyanna, and just didn't tell his kids for some reason?

[Bael's Bastard]

3 hours ago, The WolfSpider said:

Since I'm, regrettably, not sleeping I'm wasting time and cell battery reading ASOIAF material and something occurs to me that I've never seen mentioned anywhere. 

Could Lord Rickard's Southron Ambitions be Lyanna becoming Queen? 

I know about the alliances between the war buddies and all but that's not really ambition is it? Even if they're trying to unseat the Mad King, that's a means to an end. 

We know Lyanna & Rhaegar had something going on clearly,  could her father have been at the root of it?

What else could he have truly desired?

Tywin's standoffishness makes good sense since he had similar ambitions.  I don't know why Hoster wouldn't have the same goal though, not that this was likely the goal of the whole alliance but more like Rickard's.

I don't think Lord Rickard Stark had any part in whatever happened or developed between Prince Rhaegar and Lyanna. By the the time of the Tourney at Harrenhal in 281, Rhaegar was already married to Elia Martell, and Rickard had already promised Lyanna to Lord Robert Baratheon.

That said, I do think Rickard's ambitions were similar to Lord Tywin Lannister's, though more patient than Tywin's.

Tywin wanted to wed Cersei to Rhaegar, and for her to be Rhaegar's queen when he became king. He confided this in Cersei as early as 272-273, and proposed the betrothal to King Aerys II in 276. In 278-279, he summoned Cersei to King's Landing, still hoping to wed her to a Targaryen prince according to Jaime, and he kept her in King's Landing until he resigned in 280-281.

Rickard promised Lyanna to Robert between 278-281. Lord Steffon's mother had been a daughter of King Aegon V, and he was one of Aerys's oldest friends. In 278, Aerys had entrusted Steffon with finding a bride for Rhaegar, and rumor had it that he intended to name Steffon his Hand in place of Tywin. Had Steffon had a daughter, she would have been a likely match for Rhaegar.

By wedding Lyanna to Robert, Rickard's grandchildren could wed Targaryen princes/princesses, and before long, he could have a descendant sitting on the Iron Throne. So, though I don't believe he hoped to wed Lyanna to Rhaegar, or for her to be a queen, I do think his ambition was ultimately to get closer to the Iron Throne, and to eventually have descendants on the Iron Throne.

[Ser Leftwich]

If only we knew something about Steffon's feelings on a Robert-Lyanna marriage. Or for that matter, Aerys. While we know Rickard had Ned fostered with Jon Arryn, we don't know why. It still seems significant that Rickard and Robert made the arrangement and not Rickard and Steffon.

[cpg2016]

43 minutes ago, Ser Leftwich said:

If only we knew something about Steffon's feelings on a Robert-Lyanna marriage. Or for that matter, Aerys. While we know Rickard had Ned fostered with Jon Arryn, we don't know why. It still seems significant that Rickard and Robert made the arrangement and not Rickard and Steffon.

Of course we know why.  Or at least, we strongly suspect why, and it's called "Southron Ambitions Theory."

Ned's fostering creates strong pseudo-familial ties to the Vale and the Stormlands, the same as Lyanna and Brandon's marriage do so for the Stormlands and Riverlands.

Steffon probably would be happy with the Robert - Lyanna marriage.  It's an excellent catch, and one of the few available.  Elia is long since spoken for, Cersei is politically unpalatable... Cat and Lysa are really the only other options.  Sure, it's not a Targaryen, which is what he wants (hence Renly), but still the best of all possible options.

And Steffon couldn't have made the betrothal because Steffon was dead when it happened.  We know Robert fathers a daughter (Mya Stone) before his betrothal to Lyanna, and Mya Stone is born ~279/280, from the chronologies I've seen, so at least a few years after the Windproud goes down.

[Frey Kings]

i'm glad the starks arryns tullys & baratheons are on the verge of extinction for their crimes against humanity 

[Ser Leftwich]

5 minutes ago, cpg2016 said:

Of course we know why.  Or at least, we strongly suspect why, and it's called "Southron Ambitions Theory."

Ned's fostering creates strong pseudo-familial ties to the Vale and the Stormlands, the same as Lyanna and Brandon's marriage do so for the Stormlands and Riverlands.

Steffon probably would be happy with the Robert - Lyanna marriage.  It's an excellent catch, and one of the few available.  Elia is long since spoken for, Cersei is politically unpalatable... Cat and Lysa are really the only other options.  Sure, it's not a Targaryen, which is what he wants (hence Renly), but still the best of all possible options.

And Steffon couldn't have made the betrothal because Steffon was dead when it happened.  We know Robert fathers a daughter (Mya Stone) before his betrothal to Lyanna, and Mya Stone is born ~279/280, from the chronologies I've seen, so at least a few years after the Windproud goes down.

Some suspect why, we do not know why.

Rickard made the arrangement for Brandon-Cat when around when Cat was 12, it was likely talked about for some time beforehand. If he wanted the same for Robert-Lyanna, it could have been arranged before Steffon died. We know it wasn't. Hence the question of what would Steffon have thought of it. The issue is not that he couldn't have arranged it as such, because he was dead, The issue is that he didn't agreed to it before he died.

Elia was not long since spoke for, Rhaegar and her were bethrothed AFTER Steffon died. How is Cersei politically unpalatable? Daughter of the current Hand, beautiful, and, in addition, by all reports Steffon and Tywin were good friends from childhood.

[Angel Eyes]

5 minutes ago, Ser Leftwich said:

Some suspect why, we do not know why.

Rickard made the arrangement for Brandon-Cat when around when Cat was 12, it was likely talked about for some time beforehand. If he wanted the same for Robert-Lyanna, it could have been arranged before Steffon died. We know it wasn't. Hence the question of what would Steffon have thought of it. The issue is not that he couldn't have arranged it as such, because he was dead, The issue is that he didn't agreed to it before he died.

Elia was not long since spoke for, Rhaegar and her were bethrothed AFTER Steffon died. How is Cersei politically unpalatable? Daughter of the current Hand, beautiful, and, in addition, by all reports Steffon and Tywin were good friends from childhood.

• Because Tywin was gunning for Rhaegar to marry Cersei for a while.
• Because Cersei will always be trying to get into Jaime’s pants and will taint any relationship he has. She screwed up Tywin’s plans for Jaime because she wanted Jaime all to herself. Or was it Aerys?...

[Bael's Bastard]

50 minutes ago, Ser Leftwich said:

If only we knew something about Steffon's feelings on a Robert-Lyanna marriage. Or for that matter, Aerys. While we know Rickard had Ned fostered with Jon Arryn, we don't know why. It still seems significant that Rickard and Robert made the arrangement and not Rickard and Steffon.

Right, there is so much we don't know.

Rickard fostered Ned with Jon Arryn when he was 8, so in 271-272. We don't know the nature of his relationship with Jon at that point, the nature of the relationship between Steffon and Jon, or the nature of the relationship, if any, between Rickard and Steffon.

Steffon fought in the War of the Ninepenny Kings, together with Prince Aerys and Tywin, in 260. His father Ormund was one of the first to be killed during that war, so Steffon became Lord of Storm's End pretty early in the war.

Aerys was crowned king in 262, the same year that Robert was born to Steffon, and Brandon was born to Rickard. Ned was born to Rickard in 263, and Stannis was born to Steffon in 264.

Rickard was already Lord of Winterfell when he visited King's Landing in 264, a visit which awakened Aerys's interest in the North, after which he hatched a plan to build a new Wall hundreds of leagues north of the Wall.

The War of the Ninepenny Kings and the coronation of Aerys would seem to have been good opportunities for Rickard to have met Jon and/or Steffon, or for Steffon to have met Rickard and/or Jon. But who knows?

Rickard might have also become acquainted to Jon through Stark family ties to the Vale. Lord Willam Stark's mother was Lorra Royce, and his daughter Jocelyn, Rickard's aunt, wed a lesser branch Royce. Rickard's wife Lyarra was also a granddaughter of Lorra Royce.

It is possible Rickard and Steffon discussed betrothing Lyanna and Robert, but all we know is that Robert was already Lord of Storm's End when Rickard promised Lyanna's hand to him. So it seems Robert might have been responsible for that match.

It is unclear what, if any, matches Steffon had considered or negotiated for Robert or Stannis, who were old enough to be betrothed when Steffon died.

[Bael's Bastard]

44 minutes ago, cpg2016 said:

Of course we know why.  Or at least, we strongly suspect why, and it's called "Southron Ambitions Theory."

Ned's fostering creates strong pseudo-familial ties to the Vale and the Stormlands, the same as Lyanna and Brandon's marriage do so for the Stormlands and Riverlands.

Steffon probably would be happy with the Robert - Lyanna marriage.  It's an excellent catch, and one of the few available.  Elia is long since spoken for, Cersei is politically unpalatable... Cat and Lysa are really the only other options.  Sure, it's not a Targaryen, which is what he wants (hence Renly), but still the best of all possible options.

And Steffon couldn't have made the betrothal because Steffon was dead when it happened.  We know Robert fathers a daughter (Mya Stone) before his betrothal to Lyanna, and Mya Stone is born ~279/280, from the chronologies I've seen, so at least a few years after the Windproud goes down.

The anti-Targaryen "STAB alliance" theory doesn't really hold up to scrutiny. And Rhaegar and Elia were betrothed in 279 and married in 280, while we don't know whether the Brandon-Catelyn and/or Robert-Lyanna betrothals occurred before or after that.

It is not inconceivable that Steffon might had tried to betroth Robert to Cersei, daughter of his old childhood friend Tywin. But we know Tywin was intent on wedding Cersei to a Targ prince, namely Rhaegar, even after Aerys rejected the match in 276. Not that it kept Tywin from bringing Cersei to KL in 278-279, and keeping her there until he resigned in 280-281.

[Shi Qiang]

13 hours ago, The WolfSpider said:

Since I'm, regrettably, not sleeping I'm wasting time and cell battery reading ASOIAF material and something occurs to me that I've never seen mentioned anywhere. 

Could Lord Rickard's Southron Ambitions be Lyanna becoming Queen? 

I know about the alliances between the war buddies and all but that's not really ambition is it? Even if they're trying to unseat the Mad King, that's a means to an end. 

We know Lyanna & Rhaegar had something going on clearly,  could her father have been at the root of it?

What else could he have truly desired?

Tywin's standoffishness makes good sense since he had similar ambitions.  I don't know why Hoster wouldn't have the same goal though, not that this was likely the goal of the whole alliance but more like Rickard's.

The Southron Ambitions is looking more like a plot by the Starks to put Robert on the throne.  They wanted to take the Targaryens out of the picture.  Brandon was going to be Robert's hand and obviously Lyanna will be his queen.  Rickard was dreaming big.  But the importance of the Targaryens to the story is greater than any plot that Rickard's little heart could have plotted out.  The Targaryens survived the Doom of Valyria and they survived Robert's Rebellion.   

[Bael's Bastard]

52 minutes ago, Allardyce said:

The Southron Ambitions is looking more like a plot by the Starks to put Robert on the throne.  They wanted to take the Targaryens out of the picture.  Brandon was going to be Robert's hand and obviously Lyanna will be his queen.  Rickard was dreaming big.  But the importance of the Targaryens to the story is greater than any plot that Rickard's little heart could have plotted out.  The Targaryens survived the Doom of Valyria and they survived Robert's Rebellion.   

No evidence for any such plot.

[Mladen]

1 hour ago, Allardyce said:

The Southron Ambitions is looking more like a plot by the Starks to put Robert on the throne.  They wanted to take the Targaryens out of the picture.  Brandon was going to be Robert's hand and obviously Lyanna will be his queen.  Rickard was dreaming big.  But the importance of the Targaryens to the story is greater than any plot that Rickard's little heart could have plotted out.  The Targaryens survived the Doom of Valyria and they survived Robert's Rebellion.   

Not only that there are no evidence, the plot wouldn't make much sense. If the Harrenhal Tourney was imagined as informal Great Council, with 4 Great Lords being invited (at the end, Tywin didn't attend when Aerys announced he will come) and emissaries from other 2 great Houses, one can arguably claim that the parties at least silently understood what the tourney was supposed to be about. Attendance of Starks in such number, with other Northern houses doesn't speak they were that anti-Targ but more of anti-Aerys. I wouldn't be surprised if we learn that Brandon had some instructions from his father.

[The WolfSpider]

21 hours ago, Bael's Bastard said:

I don't think Lord Rickard Stark had any part in whatever happened or developed between Prince Rhaegar and Lyanna. By the the time of the Tourney at Harrenhal in 281, Rhaegar was already married to Elia Martell, and Rickard had already promised Lyanna to Lord Robert Baratheon.

That said, I do think Rickard's ambitions were similar to Lord Tywin Lannister's, though more patient than Tywin's.

Tywin wanted to wed Cersei to Rhaegar, and for her to be Rhaegar's queen when he became king. He confided this in Cersei as early as 272-273, and proposed the betrothal to King Aerys II in 276. In 278-279, he summoned Cersei to King's Landing, still hoping to wed her to a Targaryen prince according to Jaime, and he kept her in King's Landing until he resigned in 280-281.

Rickard promised Lyanna to Robert between 278-281. Lord Steffon's mother had been a daughter of King Aegon V, and he was one of Aerys's oldest friends. In 278, Aerys had entrusted Steffon with finding a bride for Rhaegar, and rumor had it that he intended to name Steffon his Hand in place of Tywin. Had Steffon had a daughter, she would have been a likely match for Rhaegar.

By wedding Lyanna to Robert, Rickard's grandchildren could wed Targaryen princes/princesses, and before long, he could have a descendant sitting on the Iron Throne. So, though I don't believe he hoped to wed Lyanna to Rhaegar, or for her to be a queen, I do think his ambition was ultimately to get closer to the Iron Throne, and to eventually have descendants on the Iron Throne.

Excellent information but I can't help feeling like eventually having descendants marry Targaryens isn't really an 'ambition'. It may be semantics, admittedly, as I just don't see that as something Rickard would strongly desire.  Seems more like an idle past-time to me. 

But frankly I don't see anything here after sleeping on it other than wondering what Rickard really wanted.  I don't buy anti-Targ plotting other than maybe putting Rhaegar on the chair. 

[The Commentator]

1 hour ago, The WolfSpider said:

Excellent information but I can't help feeling like eventually having descendants marry Targaryens isn't really an 'ambition'. It may be semantics, admittedly, as I just don't see that as something Rickard would strongly desire.  Seems more like an idle past-time to me. 

But frankly I don't see anything here after sleeping on it other than wondering what Rickard really wanted.  I don't buy anti-Targ plotting other than maybe putting Rhaegar on the chair. 

That is not the case.  They only need wait a few short years if that was what they wanted.  Aerys was not long for this world.  His health was going down fast.  Rickard and Robert wanted power.  

The marriage pacts between those conniving vultures were intended for Rickard and Robert to grab power from the Targaryens.  Robert got what he wanted and ruined Westeros in the process.  The three Baratheon stooges and their allies have done more harm to the land and its people than Aerys.  

[Angel Eyes]

37 minutes ago, Widowmaker 811 said:

That is not the case.  They only need wait a few short years if that was what they wanted.  Aerys was not long for this world.  His health was going down fast.  Rickard and Robert wanted power.  

The marriage pacts between those conniving vultures were intended for Rickard and Robert to grab power from the Targaryens.  Robert got what he wanted and ruined Westeros in the process.  The three Baratheon stooges and their allies have done more harm to the land and its people than Aerys.  

Of the stooges, which one’s Moe, which one’s Curly, and which is Larry?

[The WolfSpider]

1 hour ago, Widowmaker 811 said:

That is not the case.  They only need wait a few short years if that was what they wanted.  Aerys was not long for this world.  His health was going down fast.  Rickard and Robert wanted power.  

The marriage pacts between those conniving vultures were intended for Rickard and Robert to grab power from the Targaryens.  Robert got what he wanted and ruined Westeros in the process.  The three Baratheon stooges and their allies have done more harm to the land and its people than Aerys.  

Nothing less than regime change then since Robert is way down in line of succession. I guess it would explain why Steffon didn't find a bride.  Well that certainly doesn't lack ambition.

[FictionIsntReal]

14 hours ago, Widowmaker 811 said:

That is not the case.  They only need wait a few short years if that was what they wanted.  Aerys was not long for this world.  His health was going down fast.  Rickard and Robert wanted power.  

The marriage pacts between those conniving vultures were intended for Rickard and Robert to grab power from the Targaryens.  Robert got what he wanted and ruined Westeros in the process.  The three Baratheon stooges and their allies have done more harm to the land and its people than Aerys.  

Rickard & Robert aren't really the instigators of the war. Brandon was the one who had to be restrained after Rhaegar crowned Lyanna, while Robert (publicly) joked that Rhaegar was just giving what was due to the fairest woman there. Brandon was the one who went down to King's Landing after Robert's fiance was abducted, while Robert stayed in the Vale. Rickard only came down after Aerys summoned him. The Targaryens had been in power for a long time, so it would require an extreme change to get them out (hard to anticipate beforehand). More likely is that they wanted an alliance of families to have more power vs the king. The Magna Carta didn't remove King John from power, it just reduced his power and raised that of the nobles.

[Joshua Lowe]

On 6/28/2018 at 3:04 PM, Ser Leftwich said:

If only we knew something about Steffon's feelings on a Robert-Lyanna marriage. Or for that matter, Aerys. While we know Rickard had Ned fostered with Jon Arryn, we don't know why. It still seems significant that Rickard and Robert made the arrangement and not Rickard and Steffon.

Ambitions aside, He married his heir to the only daughter of one of the great lords of the realm. Even with no current/imminent ambitious plan, the possibilities of securing such an alliance are plentiful...

[Big P]

On 6/28/2018 at 4:12 PM, Frey Kings said:

i'm glad the starks arryns tullys & baratheons are on the verge of extinction for their crimes against humanity 

Fear not friend.  Those low down bastards are history.  I, at least, hope so.