Order of the Green Hand says Jon is Ned’s trueborn son with Ashara? I’m not sure...

[Angel Eyes]

This theory by the Order of the Green Hand suggests that Ned and Ashara married and Jon is their son, making Ned’s children with Catelyn bastards because Ned needed their army, suggesting reasons why Brynden Blackfish and Hoster Tully had their biggest feud yet. 

Thoughts? 

This theory might be BS.

[TyrionFan82]

I've seen this and do think it has merit. Ashara is mentioned multiple times, it has to be for a reason. I think she could very well be Jon's mother AND still be alive to boot. How it is figured out however is beyond me. 

[Widowmaker 811]

Jon is more than likely the result of Mance Rayder  and Lyanna Stark. 

Ned could not have married Catelyn if he was already married to Ashara.  Polygamy is not legal.  Catelyn's religion forbids polygamy and the law make it illegal.  It is impossible for Ned to get away with marrying two women.  Ned and Ashara will produce a bastard OR Ned and Catelyn will produce bastards.  

[Angel Eyes]

5 minutes ago, Widowmaker 811 said:

Jon is more than likely the result of Mance Rayder  and Lyanna Stark. 

Ned could not have married Catelyn if he was already married to Ashara.  Polygamy is not legal.  Catelyn's religion forbids polygamy and the law make it illegal.  It is impossible for Ned to get away with marrying two women.  Ned and Ashara will produce a bastard OR Ned and Catelyn will produce bastards.  

The guys in the video think that Hoster forced Ned to marry Catelyn or he would lose the Riverlands and didn’t give two shits that Ned was already married, since it was allegedly an Old Gods marriage, which Hoster would consider invalid. The other reason is the particularly nasty argument between Hoster and Brynden Blackfish that led to Blackfish leaving for the Vale, since they don’t reconcile until the end of Hoster’s life.

[Megorova]

2 minutes ago, Angel Eyes said:

The other reason is the particularly nasty argument between Hoster and Brynden Blackfish that led to Blackfish leaving for the Vale, since they don’t reconcile until the end of Hoster’s life.

The reason for that argument was Brynden's refusal to marry to Redwyne, later to Bracken, and Frey.

So I think, that Tullys (aside from Brynden) were anti-Targaryen and secret supporters of Blackfyres. Hoster's wife Menisa was from House Whent. Could be, that House Whent was established by the Bastard of Harrenhal, that was secret son of Jeyne Lothstone and her father Aegon IV Targaryen (Falena Stokeworth + Aegon IV = Jeyne Lothstone; Jeyne + Aegon IV = Bastard of Harrenhal, first Lord Whent, and great great grandfather of Petyr Baelish, which makes Cateryn Tully and Petyr third cousins).

 

If Jon is not Lyanna's child, then how and why did Lyanna died?

And if that last request, to Ned from Lyanna, was not about keeping Jon safe, then what was it about?

Also if Lyanna died in childbirth, but her child is not Jon, and that child died together with Lyanna, then what's the reason for Ned to keep from other people circumstances of Lyanna's death?

According to rumors, Ashara had a daughter. And Jon is not a girl.

Ned Stark is not the kind of person, to marry with another woman, if he is already married, and his wife is expecting a child.

There is absolutely no reason for Ned to marry with Ashara Dayne in secret. If there really was something going on between them, then he would have asked his family and her family, and they would have married. Because, really, why would their families be against this marriage?

If Jon's mother was Ashara Dayne, and she is dead, or even not dead, then why to keep her identity secret from Jon and Cat? 

If Jon is not secret Targaryen prince, then why GRRM is building him to be Cinderella-man of ASOIAF? - rising from the Bastard of Winterfell to Lord Commander of Night's Watch.

All this goes against Jon being Ashara's child.

[Angel Eyes]

8 minutes ago, Megorova said:

The reason for that argument was Brynden's refusal to marry to Redwyne, later to Bracken, and Frey.

So I think, that Tullys (aside from Brynden) were anti-Targaryen and secret supporters of Blackfyres. Hoster's wife Menisa was from House Whent. Could be, that House Whent was established by the Bastard of Harrenhal, that was secret son of Jeyne Lothstone and her father Aegon IV Targaryen (Falena Stokeworth + Aegon IV = Jeyne Lothstone; Jeyne + Aegon IV = Bastard of Harrenhal, first Lord Whent, and great great grandfather of Petyr Baelish, which makes Cateryn Tully and Petyr third cousins).

 

If Jon is not Lyanna's child, then how and why did Lyanna died?

And if that last request, to Ned from Lyanna, was not about keeping Jon safe, then what was it about?

Also if Lyanna died in childbirth, but her child is not Jon, and that child died together with Lyanna, then what's the reason for Ned to keep from other people circumstances of Lyanna's death?

According to rumors, Ashara had a daughter. And Jon is not a girl.

Ned Stark is not the kind of person, to marry with another woman, if he is already married, and his wife is expecting a child.

There is absolutely no reason for Ned to marry with Ashara Dayne in secret. If there really was something going on between them, then he would have asked his family and her family, and they would have married. Because, really, why would their families be against this marriage?

If Jon's mother was Ashara Dayne, and she is dead, or even not dead, then why to keep her identity secret from Jon and Cat? 

If Jon is not secret Targaryen prince, then why GRRM is building him to be Cinderella-man of ASOIAF? - rising from the Bastard of Winterfell to Lord Commander of Night's Watch.

All this goes against Jon being Ashara's child.

I thought the argument was over Brynden entering service with House Arryn. 

Well hey, I don’t think much of this theory anyways.

[Megorova]

59 minutes ago, Angel Eyes said:

I thought the argument was over Brynden entering service with House Arryn. 

Brynden didn't wanted to marry. Either not with candidates, selected by his brother, or maybe didn't wanted to marry at all. Maybe he was gay. He never married, and his brother called him "black goat of the Tully flock". It could be a variation of black sheep, or white crow - reference to someone, who is different than majority. So maybe he was called black goat because he was gay, or because other Tullys were anti-Targaryen, while Brynden didn't cared either way, and thus wasn't willing to enter political marriage.

They had strained relationship for many years, because of Brynden refusing to marry. And then, after it was decided, that Lysa will marry with Jon Arryn, Brynden announced to his brother, that he is going with Lysa to The Vale. And this was the final straw for Hoster, and he disowned Brynden. Because if Brynden was going away from Riverrun, out from under Hoster's control, then there was absolutely no possibility left, that eventually Hoster will manage to press his younger brother into unwanted marriage.

So the reason for all their arguments was actually the same - Brynden's refusal to marry, for whatever reason.

 

[Allardyce]

3 hours ago, Angel Eyes said:

This theory by the Order of the Green Hand suggests that Ned and Ashara married and Jon is their son, making Ned’s children with Catelyn bastards because Ned needed their army, suggesting reasons why Brynden Blackfish and Hoster Tully had their biggest feud yet. 

Thoughts? 

This theory might be BS.

 

3 hours ago, TyrionFan82 said:

I've seen this and do think it has merit. Ashara is mentioned multiple times, it has to be for a reason. I think she could very well be Jon's mother AND still be alive to boot. How it is figured out however is beyond me. 

It absolutely has merit.  I can see why Ned would keep this a secret.  That makes his marriage to Catelyn a sham and Robb the bastard.  To those who say Ned is too honorable.  I say, it was war and the rebellion needed the Tullys to cooperate.  Ned gave up his wife to marry Brandon's fiancee in order to save the rebellion.

[LindsayLohan]

Ridiculous.  Two marriages, invalidated by religious bickering? 

Give it up already.

[Risto]

As Apple Martini once said: "If your theory about Jon's parentage can't properly address the secrecy surrounding Jon's mother, then it all breaks down." It really all comes down to that.

And guys, at this point, it is just beating the dead horse. We do know who Jon's parents are. 

[Belgarad]

I've seen a few of their videos, and in my opinion, they have thoroughly worn out their Jump to Conclusions Mat.

[Wall Flower]

1 hour ago, Belgarad said:

I've seen a few of their videos, and in my opinion, they have thoroughly worn out their Jump to Conclusions Mat.

I made the mistake of clicking on their Catelyn video. I only lasted as long as them proclaiming her the 'worst person ever' and a stone cold psychopath. Doesn't fill me with confidence about their ability to analyse the books or characters.

[Corvo the Crow]

King shits and the hand wipes. And sometimes king shits green because of diarrhea or some other reason.

[Ylath's Snout]

1 hour ago, Wall Flower said:

I made the mistake of clicking on their Catelyn video. I only lasted as long as them proclaiming her the 'worst person ever' and a stone cold psychopath. Doesn't fill me with confidence about their ability to analyse the books or characters.

Yeah that video completely turned me off them. Don't they argue that Cat intentionally tries to get all her children killed intentionally or something like that? Feels like they didn't read her POW chapters.

4 hours ago, Risto said:

As Apple Martini once said: "If your theory about Jon's parentage can't properly address the secrecy surrounding Jon's mother, then it all breaks down." It really all comes down to that.

Yeah this is a great argument. Why in the name of the star spangled spaghetti monster would Ned act the way he does, to the point of scaring Cat if Ashara was Jon's mother?

[Giant Ice Spider]

I do think that Ned and Ashara married, and that Ned was basically forced to commit bigamy by Hoster Tully.

That said, I believe R + L = J.

If Ned and Ashara had a child, I'm tempted to say it was Dany, but that's just speculation.

[Ylath's Snout]

18 minutes ago, Giant Ice Spider said:

I do think that Ned and Ashara married, and that Ned was basically forced to commit bigamy by Hoster Tully.

Why do you think that? I think they might have had something going on but I don't see Ned secretly marrying someone. To use a DnD term he just seems to lawful for that. He'd do it the proper way, asking his father and Ashara's family 

[Daemon The Black Dragon]

16 hours ago, Angel Eyes said:

This theory by the Order of the Green Hand suggests that Ned and Ashara married and Jon is their son, making Ned’s children with Catelyn bastards because Ned needed their army, suggesting reasons why Brynden Blackfish and Hoster Tully had their biggest feud yet. 

Thoughts? 

This theory might be BS.

Jon Arryn marriage to Lysa would give the rebals their army. Hoster forcing a married Ned to wed Cat for a army just doesn't make sense. Do they also suggest Ned and Ashara married in secret and why they would?

[Angel Eyes]

43 minutes ago, Daemon The Black Dragon said:

Jon Arryn marriage to Lysa would give the rebals their army. Hoster forcing a married Ned to wed Cat for a army just doesn't make sense. Do they also suggest Ned and Ashara married in secret and why they would?

Green Hand (or greenhorn) suggest that Ned and Ashara were going to ask Rickard if they could marry, but they didn’t get the chance due to Lyanna’s abduction and Brandon’s imprisonment. They went back to the Vale, then undertook the perilous journey to White Harbor; Greenhand suggests that Ashara is the fisherman’s daughter and that Ashara spent the Rebellion in White Harbor, where she and Ned married. 

Their explanations also include birth year calculations, distance calculations, and even invoke passages from the books regarding Ned’s sins. 

Whose idea was it for Jon to marry Lysa, Jon’s or Hoster’s? Ned’s marriage to Catelyn was probably going to go through, why did Hoster need to marry both daughters to Lord Paramounts? Though I must admit, Hoster caused no end of trouble with his treatment of Lysa.

[Angel Eyes]

Here are links to the theory.

Part 1

Part 2

Part 3

Part 4

[Widowmaker 811]

17 hours ago, Angel Eyes said:

The guys in the video think that Hoster forced Ned to marry Catelyn or he would lose the Riverlands and didn’t give two shits that Ned was already married, since it was allegedly an Old Gods marriage, which Hoster would consider invalid. The other reason is the particularly nasty argument between Hoster and Brynden Blackfish that led to Blackfish leaving for the Vale, since they don’t reconcile until the end of Hoster’s life.

Those are some pretty serious charges.  Ned already being married to Ashara and then after the fact marrying Catelyn.  That's some very serious ethical and legal violations.  I'll stop short of saying it didn't happen but if it did, it fundamentally changes the story for many reasons.  That would make Snowball a potential wielder of Dawn with a distant claim on Starfall.  Catelyn's children with Ned do not have rights to Winterfell.  Snowball is the heir to Winterfell.