Order of the Green Hand says Jon is Ned’s trueborn son with Ashara? I’m not sure...

[The Weirwoods Eyes]

15 hours ago, Megorova said:

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The problem with your theory is that it is your own fan fiction. You've taken the handfull of quotes about the tourney at Harrenhall and created an entire story non of which is implied by those quotes, beyond Rhaegar working out that Lyanna was the MK.  And this being a contributing factor in his infatuation with her. 

Here is Meera's story as she tells it to Bran beginning after Lyanna has beaten up the squires. And taken Howlnd under her wing. 

ASOS: Bran II

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"That evening there was to be a feast in Harrenhal, to mark the opening of the tourney, and the she-wolf insisted that the lad attend. He was of high birth, with as much a right to a place on the bench as any other man. She was not easy to refuse, this wolf maid, so he let the young pup find him garb suitable to a king's feast, and went up to the great castle.

"Under Harren's roof he ate and drank with the wolves, and many of their sworn swords besides, barrowdown men and moose and bears and mermen. The dragon prince sang a song so sad it made the wolf maid sniffle, but when her pup brother teased her for crying she poured wine over his head. A black brother spoke, asking the knights to join the Night's Watch. The storm lord drank down the knight of skulls and kisses in a wine-cup war. The crannogman saw a maidwith laughing purple eyes dance with a white sword, a red snake, and the lord of griffins, and lastly with the quiet wolf . . . but only after the wild wolf spoke to her on behalf of a brother too shy to leave his bench.

"Amidst all this merriment, the little crannogman spied the three squires who'd attacked him. One served a pitchfork knight, one a porcupine, while the last attended a knight with two towers on his surcoat, a sigil all crannogmen know well."

"The Freys," said Bran. "The Freys of the Crossing."

"Then, as now," she agreed. "The wolf maid saw them too, and pointed them out to her brothers. 'I could find you a horse, and some armor that might fit,' the pup offered. The little crannogman thanked him, but gave no answer. His heart was torn. Crannogmen are smaller than most, but just as proud. The lad was no knight, no more than any of his people. We sit a boat more often than a horse, and our hands are made for oars, not lances. Much as he wished to have his vengeance, he feared he would only make a fool of himself and shame his people. The quiet wolf had offered the little crannogman a place in his tent that night, but before he slept he knelt on the lakeshore, looking across the water to where the Isle of Faces would be, and said a prayer to the old gods of north and Neck . . ."

"You never heard this tale from your father?" asked Jojen.

"It was Old Nan who told the stories. Meera, go on, you can't stop there."

Hodor must have felt the same. "Hodor," he said, and then, "Hodor hodor hodor hodor."

"Well," said Meera, "if you would hear the rest . . ."

"Yes. Tell it."

"Five days of jousting were planned," she said. "There was a great seven-sided mêlée as well, and archery and axe-throwing, a horse race and tourney of singers . . ."

"Never mind about all that." Bran squirmed impatiently in his basket on Hodor's back. "Tell about the jousting."

"As my prince commands. The daughter of the castle was the queen of love and beauty, with four brothers and an uncle to defend her, but all four sons of Harrenhal were defeated on the first day. Their conquerors reigned briefly as champions, until they were vanquished in turn. As it happened, the end of the first day saw the porcupine knight win a place among the champions, and on the morning of the second day the pitchfork knight and the knight of the two towers were victorious as well. But late on the afternoon of that second day, as the shadows grew long, a mystery knight appeared in the lists."

Bran nodded sagely. Mystery knights would oft appear at tourneys, with helms concealing their faces, and shields that were either blank or bore some strange device. Sometimes they were famous champions in disguise. The Dragonknight once won a tourney as the Knight of Tears, so he could name his sister the queen of love and beauty in place of the king's mistress. And Barristan the Bold twice donned a mystery knight's armor, the first time when he was only ten. "It was the little crannogman, I bet."

"No one knew," said Meera, "but the mystery knight was short of stature, and clad in ill-fitting armor made up of bits and pieces. The device upon his shield was a heart tree of the old gods, a white weirwood with a laughing red face."

"Maybe he came from the Isle of Faces," said Bran. "Was he green?" In Old Nan's stories, the guardians had dark green skin and leaves instead of hair. Sometimes they had antlers too, but Bran didn't see how the mystery knight could have worn a helm if he had antlers. "I bet the old gods sent him."

"Perhaps they did. The mystery knight dipped his lance before the king and rode to the end of the lists, where the five champions had their pavilions. You know the three he challenged."

"The porcupine knight, the pitchfork knight, and the knight of the twin towers." Bran had heard enough stories to know that. "He was the little crannogman, I told you."

"Whoever he was, the old gods gave strength to his arm. The porcupine knight fell first, then the pitchfork knight, and lastly the knight of the two towers. None were well loved, so the common folk cheered lustily for the Knight of the Laughing Tree, as the new champion soon was called. When his fallen foes sought to ransom horse and armor, the Knight of the Laughing Tree spoke in a booming voice through his helm, saying, 'Teach your squires honor, that shall be ransom enough.' Once the defeated knights chastised their squires sharply, their horses and armor were returned. And so the little crannogman's prayer was answered . . . by the green men, or the old gods, or the children of the forest, who can say?"

It was a good story, Bran decided after thinking about it a moment or two. "Then what happened? Did the Knight of the Laughing Tree win the tourney and marry a princess?"

"No," said Meera. "That night at the great castle, the storm lord and the knight of skulls and kisses each swore they would unmask him, and the king himself urged men to challenge him, declaring that the face behind that helm was no friend of his. But the next morning, when the heralds blew their trumpets and the king took his seat, only two champions appeared. The Knight of the Laughing Tree had vanished. The king was wroth, and even sent his son the dragon prince to seek the man, but all they ever found was his painted shield, hanging abandoned in a tree. It was the dragon prince who won that tourney in the end."

"Oh." Bran thought about the tale awhile. "That was a good story. But it should have been the three bad knights who hurt him, not their squires. Then the little crannogman could have killed them all. The part about the ransoms was stupid. And the mystery knight should win the tourney, defeating every challenger, and name the wolf maid the queen of love and beauty."

"She was," said Meera, "but that's a sadder story."

 

15 hours ago, Megorova said:

 

 

15 hours ago, Megorova said:

I

15 hours ago, Megorova said:

 

 

15 hours ago, Megorova said:

I

Sorry about all the empty boxes, bloody formatting. 

I'll start at the begining, Lyanna brings Howland into the feast hall, and he sits with the Northern contingent. During which Lyanna cries at Rhaegars song, you insist that after she pours her wine over Benjen for laughing at her a fight breaks out but that's conjecture.

Yes Lyanna was a "tom boy", and no Benjen did not treat her like a precious flower. But that does not mean that they'd brawl in public. You've projected Benjens relationship with his sister onto Brandon & Ned, and Brandon certainly expected Lyanna to be treated like a precious ornament & to behave acordingly. That is why he was enraged when Rhaegar crowned her, and why he went to the red keep spouting his mouth off.

He behaved very much like a man who understands that his sisters value lies in her perceived virtue, and who assumed Rhaegars intentions to be as selfish and thoughtless as his own when it comes to bedding unwed maidens.

You've fantasised a cat fight with Ned & Brandon dragging them apart but we don't have any thing to indicate this.  We have her pouring her wine over him, for all we know she didn't even stand up to do so, She might have just turned to him and upended her goblet, at which point her brothers can either laugh it off or chastise her probably each reacted in his own way. 

I very much doubt that had a full on fight ensued the author would leave that out.  He tells us what happened via Meera. She poured her wine over his head then the NW brother spoke.  We know Lyanna was not given free reign to behave as she liked because that scene in the GodsWood is being conducted in secret and Ned tells us when he speaks with Arya that Lyanna might have taken up a sword if their father would have allowed it.  Rickard also wanted to make her an advantageous southron marriage.  She might have been a "tomboy" but she was expected to conduct herself as a Lady.  Ladies don't brawl at dinner. Had GRRM wanted to convey a clue that Rhaegar watched this happening he'd have included something such as the Prince smirked at that. So we can not conclude that Rhaegar was watching them closely enough to note the men Lyanna pointed out. 

After pointing out the squires Benjen offered to find Howland some armour and a shield and lance.  What makes you think that Lyanna was not just as able to access the armouries of the Northern contingent?  That she would need to resort to taking Howlands totally unsuitable leathern shield?  Answer is she didn't need to do so. She likely picked up a suitable kite shaped wooden shield and painted it herself. Maybe Benjen helped her?  

No one takes a shield into the feasting hall, they are making merry not expecting a brawl to break out.  Howland may or may not have moved his gear to Ned's tent and anyway who cares Lyanna had access to far more appropriate shields than Howlands. 

As to her approaching the 5 champions tents and Rhaegar guessing then it was her.  We don't even know at this point if Rhaegar was amongst the 5. The leaders board changed numerous times and rapidly this was only day two. The Prince might not even have appeared in the lists yet.  How do you think you discern the progress of a jousting competition when there are dozens of participants? Do we know? Maybe it is like football and there are group stages and knock outs, quarter finals, semi's, then a final? How exactly do you get from tens of hopefuls down to two?  Just because on day two there were 5 people with their tents pitched in the winners enclosure doesn't mean Rhaegar was amongst them.  You assume too much he might not even have had his first tilt at that stage.  Who knows? 

During that evenings feasting, Robert Baratheon & Richard Lonmouth say they'll unmask the MK. Aerys urges others to pledge to do so also.  Lyanna doesn't need warning about Aerys intent to unmask her nor his negative feelings towards the MK. She's sat there in the hall feasting with everyone else! 

Your conversation between Arthur & Rhaegar is pure fiction. There is nothing to indicate this happening, likewise Ashara going to Lyanna to retrieve the shield or warn her off. Nothing in the text implies this.  Lyanna was as aware of the danger posed by Aerys's desire to see her unmasked as anyone else as she was in the room.  And there is nothing in the world stopping Ashara & Lyanna having an openly viewed conversation during the feast, or during the events of the day time. They are two maidens there is nothing to prevent Ashara approaching her openly. There is no need for this secrecy and subterfuge which you propose. 

The painted shield hanging in the tree symbolises the folk tales; multiple from all over the world but especially northern europe,  where a skinchanging maiden is spied naked and in her female form by a huntsman. Her animal skin is invariably hanging near by and this is how she is "captured". He takes her pelt. Throughout Meera's retelling of the tale she refers to Lyanna as a She Wolf indeed several other people do throughout the entire story and both Arya & Sansa are also refered to thus. Both of whom also masquerade as someone else, and are literal skin changers. 

GRRM even includes his own version of these folk tales in his story though we have to guess that this is what he is referencing. In the Swan Maidens of Maiden pool & Florian who spied Jonquil and her sisters bathing there.  The references to maidens bathing and an animal avatar; Swans, alongside a man stricken by love for one of them howether is all rather leading. Especially in a story which includes actual skinchangers. 

Barristan only has to be stalking Ashara if we buy your fiction of her sneaking around of a night.  Ashara's misdemeanours were more likely to have been conducted during the dancing and entertainments,  a few words whispered in her ear during a set,  and then a clandestine meeting in another section of the castle later when the wine flow and singing means many have stopped paying any attention to what others are up to.  Except of course Barristan who's single, probably sober/ish depending on his duties and besotted with Ashara. 

Not to mention that his information would have been backed up with the actual outcome of her pregnancy.   He was at the royal court, he would be privy to the gossip, he can put the pieces together; the way she smiled at Brandon, him whispering to her, glances across the hall, a brush against his arm, a moment of too intent eye contact. Then a few weeks alter or a month or two Oh! the disgrace Elia's lady in waiting is with child. Then news of a stillbirth.   At the red keep he would hear reliable accounts from communications between Ashara herself, her Lady Mother, Rhaella, Elia and any other ladies whom she is aquainted with at court. 

We have NO reason at all to question the information given to us that Ashara had sex with someone, Barristan says Stark, and we know that is was unlikely Ned (See my previous posts explaining this.) Got pregnant, and had a stillborn daughter. Whilst some myself included speculate this daughter might be being passed off as Allyria. There is nothing that suggests she was never pregnant. Nor is there anything that suggests she was speaking with Lyanna. Meera tells us nothing to imply the two women interacted

15 hours ago, Megorova said:

They went to Starfall, that's a logic conclusion. You can argue against this all you want, but there's nothing in the books, that exclude this possibility. Rhaegar had to take Lyanna somewhere. And that place had to be secure. So what better place, than Starfall, could it be? Arthur is Rhaegar's oldest and most trusted friend. Thus Starfall is an obvious choise. Also it's not far from Oldtown. So if Rhaegar planned to divorce with Elia, prior getting married with Lyanna, he could have requested from Citadel, to arrange his divorce.

15 hours ago, Megorova said:

 

The emboldened I think is where we get to the crux of your misunderstanding of theory craft. It is not a case of nothing excluding a possibility which can be used to build a theory but rather something giving rise to it as a possibility that indicates it. 

Surely Starfall being his best friends home makes it the stupid mans choice? I mean "Where is Rhaegar, I dunno he was with Arthur, Oh yeah they're buds. Guess we should check out Starfall then.  Oh By the Seven! How did you find me??? "

You are also conflating the books and the show. There is no divorce in Westeros. And it is not the Maesters who preside over marriage and it's annulment. It has nothing at all to do with the Citadel.

17 hours ago, Megorova said:

When Aerys has sent Gerold Hightower to find Rhaegar, Gerold went to Starfall. Because he knew Rhagar fairly well, and knew to whom Rhaegar has trusted enough, to hide for months at their place. So after Gerold found Rhaegar, they were going to return to KL. Sea-route was too dangerous to take during war time. Because they had to sail near Dorne, Stormlands, and Stepstones. Probably in times of war, pirates and slavers were cruising thru unguarded sea-routes of Westeros, because Targaryen fleet was too busy with war, and weren't guarding their sea-territory. And Rhaegar couldn't be sure, how Martells will treat him and Lyanna, if they will intercept his ship. So they went via land route, on horseback. By the time when Gerold arrived to Starfall, Rhaegar and Lyanna already were there for several months. So it's obvious, that she was already pregnant, though probably didn't knew about that yet. Though on the way thru Prince's Pass, her pregnancy became obvious. And thus Rhaegar didn't wanted to risk his baby, and had to leave Lyanna at the nearest more or less safe location. Probably that watch tower was the place, where Rhaegar and Lyanna realised, that she's pregnant. That's the reason why Rhaegas has called that place the Tower of Joy. There he found out, that he will have a baby.

Again Pure fantasy. Nothing in the books indicates this. Gerold was sent to fetch Rhaegar back to KL. Now we don't know how he knew where to find Rhaegar. If he went first to Starfall on the assumption Arthur would have been in touch with his family, if he knew where in fact they were precisely; we don't know that Aerys or Rhaella did not know where there son was. If he simply wandered around hoping for the best. 

But this lengthy story you have written here is no more indicated by the text that any of those options.  We also do not know that Rhaegar could not be sure how the Martells would treat him and Lyanna. If anything it is indicated that Lewyn at least was one of the 6 he took with him initially.   You just make stuff up. 

17 hours ago, Megorova said:

Speed of horse travel thru mountainous terrain is 20 miles per day.

Nearest location to TofJ is Vulture's Roost - 47 miles. It's a ruined castle. Thus, most likely, it was empty. It would take them a bit less than 2 and a half days to get there. The other nearest location is Nightsong - 135 miles from TofJ, nearly 7 days of traveling. To castle Wys is 185 miles, a bit over 9 days.

Tower of Joy is 400 miles from Starfall, in staight line.

400 miles / 20 miles per day = 20 days from TofJ to Starfall.

Would a newborn baby survive 20 days without food?

I did calculations of timeframe during Robert's Rebellion, and if my calculations are anywhere near correct timeframe, then, by the time when Rhaegar and Lyanna arrived to Tower of Joy, she was 4-4,5 months pregnant. Thus they still had over 100 days to send someone back to Starfall, and request from there a wet nurse. They (KG) would even have time, to travel to other locations, and choose a wet nurse, from several candidates.

So what makes more sense, that

1. when Lyanna died, there was no wet nurse there, and Ned had to travel 20+ days to Starfall, to feed newborn Jon,

or 2. by the time, when Lyanna gave birth to Jon, one of Lyanna's companions has brought from Starfall a wet nurse for her baby?

You have ignored the bit where I suggest that Ned could have asked women in the communities they passed through to nurse the baby, or requisitioned a goat to take along. The ToJ may even have had one, they'd been there some time so hens, goats, crops, etc are reasonable things to find around the place.  

Babies are born with high fat and water stores, this is why many newborns especially first babies; milk tends to come in quicker in subsequent births, routinely loose up around 10% of their birth weight in the first week. Because very little fluid is taken in in the first several days prior to mature milk coming in.  We are evolved for this. There was a baby found dumped in a storm drain in 2014 who had been left 6 days and still had a strong vigorous cry; hence how it was discovered and in 1986 a whole room full of newborns was dug out of an earthquake after a week all living.  Trust me if Jon had to go a few days between villages he'd be just fine. 

More obvious and something that fans of there being a wet nurse at the ToJ miss,is why? Why would a fit healthy young woman in a culture where high born women routinely nurse their own babies bring in a wet nurse prior to the birth? Especially when she is trying to maintain secrecy as to her location due to the war against the father of her child's dynasty?   

I'm not arguing that one definitely was not there, just that we have no reason to believe there was. Lyanna was not planning on dying. 

[Megorova]

I just now remembered, that Jon IS a Dayne.

Dyanna Dayne, mother of Aegon V, is Jon's paternal great great great grandmother (1 Dyanna - 2 Egg - 3 Jaehaerys - 4 Aerys - 5 Rhaegar - 6 Jon).

So Ashara and Arthur were Jon's 3rd cousins once removed, and their children to Jon are 4th cousins.

So whether Edric Dayne is son of Ashara and Howland Reed, or whether he is son of some unknown yet Lord Dayne, he is still Jon's 4th cousin.

[Alexis-something-Rose]

27 minutes ago, The Weirwoods Eyes said:

More obvious and something that fans of there being a wet nurse at the ToJ miss,is why? Why would a fit healthy young woman in a culture where high born women routinely nurse their own babies bring in a wet nurse prior to the birth? Especially when she is trying to maintain secrecy as to her location due to the war against the father of her child's dynasty?   

I don't know if there was a wet nurse with them at the ToJ, but in universe, we have Garin's mother who is both a midwife and a wet nurse. So it could be someone who doubled as that. At the very least we know that there was more than one person with Ned after Lyanna's passing. 

I'm of the personal belief that Lyanna and the Kingsguard were not held up at the ToJ the entire time, but may have been at some castle (I don't think it was Starfall) that would have been loyal to the very end. The Kingsguard were very well informed. They knew everything that had happened when they were confronted by Ned. By the time King's Landing was sacked with the results that we know, they must have known it was a matter of time before the Reach bent the knee. It only leaves individual houses to assist.  

I think they were trying to make their way out of Westeros through the Prince's Pass, trying to reach Starfall and escape from there, when the baby decided it was time to come, so they went to the closest place they could shelter, the ToJ.

For me, it makes no sense at all that they would have been at the tower the whole time and decided to stay there especially when they knew everything was lost. They can't defend it, they don't know how many men are coming after them. I would think their priority would have been to get Lyanna out of dodge ASAP. The new regime is not above murdering little children. Remaining at the tower after the sack of King's Landing and Aerys, the children and Elia murders doesn't compute. It's such an insane decision to want to stay there for so long. 

For me it sort of goes back to one question. It's war out there. Does Rhaegar want Lyanna to stay in a tower that cannot be defended, or does he want her at a castle that has high walls and can be defended? Since we don't have details about the tower, I'm assuming it's a watchtower similar to the one Bran and his companions stay in while they're making their way to the Wall.

But it is all speculation. And I'm not even sure we'll get half the answers in the next book. 

[kissdbyfire]

2 hours ago, Luddsthirdmorph said:

Sounds like a plot from the Bold and Beautiful -!!!

It does!

But the real issue is the timeline doesn't work. 

[The Weirwoods Eyes]

11 minutes ago, Widow's Watch said:

I don't know if there was a wet nurse with them at the ToJ, but in universe, we have Garin's mother who is both a midwife and a wet nurse. So it could be someone who doubled as that. At the very least we know that there was more than one person with Ned after Lyanna's passing. 

No,we know she was her wet nurse. 

AFFC: The Queenmaker

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"Prince Oberyn was full of stories." Garin had been with them as well that day; he was Arianne's milk brother, and they had been inseparable since before they learned to walk. "He told about Prince Garin, I remember, the one that I was named for."

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Garin was next, a loose-limbed, swarthy, long-nosed fellow with a jade stud in one ear. "Here is gay Garin of the orphans, who makes me laugh," said Arianne. "His mother was my wet nurse."

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"Aye," Garin called out cheerfully, "and we sing and play and dance on water, and know much and more of healing. My mother is the best midwife in Westeros, and my father can cure warts."

 

Be very careful about assumptions. Garins mother was Ariannes wet nurse, and is now a midwife. It would be highly unusual for a young woman to be a midwife, the very job necessitates years of experience. And is a craft learnt from another over many years. Arianne is 24 years old she was her wet nurse 24 years ago. That does not mean she was at that time a midwife or that if she was she delivered Arianne.  Wet nurses are by necessity pre-menopausal women, usually relatively young. 

[Alexis-something-Rose]

1 hour ago, The Weirwoods Eyes said:

No,we know she was her wet nurse. 

Yes, we know she was Arianne's wet nurse. I was just saying that a woman is not restricted to being one or the other.

1 hour ago, The Weirwoods Eyes said:

Be very careful about assumptions. Garins mother was Ariannes wet nurse, and is now a midwife. It would be highly unusual for a young woman to be a midwife, the very job necessitates years of experience. And is a craft learnt from another over many years. Arianne is 24 years old she was her wet nurse 24 years ago. That does not mean she was at that time a midwife or that if she was she delivered Arianne.  Wet nurses are by necessity pre-menopausal women, usually relatively young. 

I didn't say she delivered Arianne. I don't even think I mentioned Arianne at all in my post. And I think you are making assumptions as well. We don't know how the universe works and when women start training to deliver babies. Sharna helps deliver Fern's baby, so the assumption is that she has received some form of training or has delivered enough babies that she knows what she's doing. And Val delivered her nephew during battle. We don't know if she knew what she was doing.

In ADWD, Jon gets two wet nurses for Gilly's babe. One he places her age at 14, the other one he places her age at 40. 

We don't know if Garin's mother is still a wet nurse and we don't know her age, but we have a 40 year old in the story who still is a wet nurse. And we know that Garin's mother is a midwife. And maybe she was doing both at some point. That was just the point I was trying to make. 

[The Weirwoods Eyes]

53 minutes ago, Widow's Watch said:

I didn't say she delivered Arianne. I don't even think I mentioned Arianne at all in my post. And I think you are making assumptions as well. We don't know how the universe works and when women start training to deliver babies. Sharna helps deliver Fern's baby, so the assumption is that she has received some form of training or has delivered enough babies that she knows what she's doing. And Val delivered her nephew during battle. We don't know if she knew what she was doing.

In ADWD, Jon gets two wet nurses for Gilly's babe. One he places her age at 14, the other one he places her age at 40. 

We don't know if Garin's mother is still a wet nurse and we don't know her age, but we have a 40 year old in the story who still is a wet nurse. And we know that Garin's mother is a midwife. And maybe she was doing both at some point. That was just the point I was trying to make.

Sorry I miss read it that you thought she had been the midwife that delivered her as well as her wetnurse. 

But my point still stands. 

Sharna is old enough to have a son who died fighting in the war of the 5 kings. So not a young woman. Val shits a brick when she is left to deliver Dalla's baby without a midwife. 

If you think 40 is post menopause you don't know much about female biology. 

The only mentions in the entire body of text to midwifes are Garins mum, whose age is indeterminate but Garin has to be older than Arianne for her to already have milk. He might be the youngest of many children and so she's very old now or the first or only child placing her more at mid to late 40's. Which would not be an unrealistic age to be a midwife. But the point is that a young woman is very unlikely to be one. She simply lacks the experience!

the other mentions are that the midwife from moles town assists dressing post battle wounds at the wall. No age given.

And that Rhaenyra was attended by a maester and a midwife. Again no age given. 

The simple explanation as to why a woman would not combine wetnursing & midwifery is that midwifery involves sudden unexpected and prolonged periods away from ones home. Meaning you would have to leave the infants you are being paid to feed, as well as your own children for anything up to three days at a time. This as well as making you unreliable as a wet nurse leaves you susceptible to blocked ducts, mastitis, low milk supply. Non of which is conducive to a successful career. Likewise you would have to take frequent breaks from attending the labouring woman to hand express. Doubt it would go down very well if you bobbed out of the room to relieve your swollen boobs only to find the baby dead on your return because something went wrong.  Not to mention that it would be next to impossible to get a let down due to the adrenaline involved in such an intense activity as attending a birth. 

My point is that this tendency for fans to conjure up the amazing duel purpose Wylla who is both midwife and wet nurse is absurd. The two roles are not compatible. 

[Alexis-something-Rose]

2 hours ago, The Weirwoods Eyes said:

If you think 40 is post menopause you don't know much about female biology. 

Well, thank you for making assumptions about what I know about female biology. Please tell me where I said in my post that a woman is post-menopausal at the age of 40. I was merely pointing to the range of age we got from the Jon chapter in the story. 

Quote

 

My point is that this tendency for fans to conjure up the amazing duel purpose Wylla who is both midwife and wet nurse is absurd. The two roles are not compatible. 

 

I also didn't say that Wylla was this midwife. A midwife could have come from any village/holdfast.

Anyway, this conversation is at an end on my side. I don't like going in circles.

[Megorova]

9 hours ago, The Weirwoods Eyes said:

How do you think you discern the progress of a jousting competition when there are dozens of participants? Do we know? Maybe it is like football and there are group stages and knock outs, quarter finals, semi's, then a final? How exactly do you get from tens of hopefuls down to two?  Just because on day two there were 5 people with their tents pitched in the winners enclosure doesn't mean Rhaegar was amongst them.  You assume too much he might not even have had his first tilt at that stage.  Who knows? 

There was similar tournament at Ashford, in The Hedge Knight novel.

"The fair maid would sit by her father’s side as the reigning Queen of Love and Beauty. Five champions wearing her favors would defend her. All others must perforce be challengers, but any man who could defeat one of the champions would take his place and stand as a champion himself, until such time as another challenger unseated him. At the end of three days of jousting, the five who remained would determine whether the fair maid would retain the crown of Love and Beauty, or whether another would wear it in her place."

At Harrenhal the jousting was planned to last for 5 days. Though it isn't definite, whether it lasted that long, or it was cut short, because one of champions spirited away on third day.

(Probably by the end of third day, there was supposed to be 5 champions left. Then (I'm basing this on what Baelor said to Dunk) those 5 were drawing lots, which of them will fight against whom. Then out of those 5, after jousts between them by the end of fourth day, only 2 must remain. And on fifth day those two fight against each other in a final.)

Original champions were five Whents - Kingsguard Oswell Whent, and his four nephews.

About other participants it is known, that Rhaegar defeated - Yohn Royce, Brandon Stark, Arthur Dayne, two Kingsguards (one of them Oswell Whent), and Barristan Selmy (in the final).

 

Now about Lyanna - Rhaegar has crowned her, because he noticed her, before that. There was nothing special in her looks. I can name 10 female characters of ASOIAF, that are, undeniably, more visually attractive than Lyanna. So the reason, why he noticed her, is something else. And the only thing, that Lyanna did at Harrenhal, was to cry after listening to Rhaegar's song, and pouring wine on her brother's head. That's the only time, when Rhaegar could have noticed her. 

Maybe there was no big commotion scene, between Lyanna and Benjen, but maybe for Rhaegar to notice her, it was enough, that she liked his song, to the point of crying, because of its sadness. And he, as author of that song, was flattered by Lyanna's reaction.

 

About shield - it was Howland's. Out of three Starks, only Brandon participated in tournament. The other two wasn't going to. So how many (spare) shields did they took with them to Harrenhal? Even if they took their shields to Harrenhal, then most likely, each of them took only one. So if that one was taken away, and then wasn't returned, then they would have noticed it, and realised, that the shield of MK is theirs. Though they wouldn't have recognized Howland's shield. Because when they met him, his shield was in Lyanna's tent, and later, when they went to feast, he didn't took it with him, and later that night, brought it with his other things to Ned's tent, so Starks haven't seen it long enough to recognize it.

9 hours ago, The Weirwoods Eyes said:

During that evenings feasting, Robert Baratheon & Richard Lonmouth say they'll unmask the MK. Aerys urges others to pledge to do so also.  Lyanna doesn't need warning about Aerys intent to unmask her nor his negative feelings towards the MK. She's sat there in the hall feasting with everyone else! 

What made you think, that there was a feast, on every day of tournament? They had big celebratory feast, for highborn people, on opening day of tournament. After that, nearly all attendants were eating somewhere else. People, that came there, brought their own food with them. Or they cooked something themselves, or their servants cooked something. Also there was vendors, that selled cooked food. Like in Hedge and Mystery Knights novels. <- Have you read them?

Aerys had severe case of paranoia and agoraphobia. For several years he didn't went out of Red Keep. I think, that aside from attending official part of tournament, he wasn't mingling with other people, he was present only during challenges.

9 hours ago, The Weirwoods Eyes said:

That night at the great castle, the storm lord and the knight of skulls and kisses each swore they would unmask him, and the king himself urged men to challenge him, declaring that the face behind that helm was no friend of his.

<- This doesn't mean, that those two lords swore to unmask MK, when they were in king's presence.

Furthermore, based on Howland's story, even during that great feast, held on first day, it seems, that the king wasn't there.

Just think about it - would Lyanna pour wine over her brother's head, in presence of Aerys? would Robert Baratheon and that other guy be helding drinking contest, if the king was there? 

So Aerys urged HIS people to challenge MK, and others didn't knew anything about it untill later, when MK disappeared, and those there were after him, complained, that they wanted to challenge him.

Howland, most likely, was there, when Robert said, that he will defeat MK. Though Lyanna wasn't there. If she was MK, then earlier that day, not that many hours ago, she has fought against three knights. Even though there was only three of them, it doesn't mean, that she just charged once, against each of them, and was able to cleanly unhorse every one of them, on first try, and that after the tilt, each of them immediately surrendered, without attempting to defeat her with a sword. Maybe there was more than one tilt against each of them. And maybe they broke many lances. Probably they also hit her with their lances, same as she has hit them. Maybe she also had to fight with them on swords.

From The Hedge Knight:

Quote

The lots made Ser Arlan my opponent in the first tilt. We broke four lances before I finally unhorsed him.

~

Ten pairs of gilded spurs drove into the flanks of ten great warhorses, a thousand voices began to scream and shout, forty iron-shod hooves pounded and tore the grass, ten lances dipped and steadied, the field seemed almost to shake, and champions and challengers came together in a rending crash of wood and steel. In an instant, the riders were beyond each other, wheeling about for another pass. Lord Tully reeled in his saddle but managed to keep his seat. When the commons realized that all ten of the lances had broken, a great roar of approval went up.

It was a splendid omen for the success of the tourney, and a testament to the skill of the competitors. Squires handed fresh lances to the jousters to replace the broken ones they cast aside, and once more the spurs dug deep. Dunk could feel the earth trembling beneath the soles of his feet. Atop his shoulders, Egg shouted happily and waved his pipestem arms. The Young Prince passed nearest to them. Dunk saw the point of his black lance kiss the watchtower on his foe’s shield and slide off to slam into his chest, even as Ser Abelar’ s own lance burst into splinters against Valarr’ s breastplate. The grey stallion in the silver-and-smoke trappings reared with the force of the impact, and Ser Abelar Hightower was lifted from his stirrups and dashed violently to the ground.

Lord Tully was down as well, unhorsed by Ser Humfrey Hardyng, but he sprang up at once and drew his longsword, and Ser Humfrey cast aside his lance—unbroken—and dismounted to continue their fight afoot. Ser Abelar was not so sprightly. His squire ran out, loosened his helm, and called for help, and two servingmen lifted the dazed knight by the arms to help him back to his pavilion. Elsewhere on the field, the six knights who had remained ahorse were riding their third course. More lances shattered, and this time Lord Leo Tyrell aimed his point so expertly he ripped the Grey Lion’s helm cleanly off his head. Barefaced, the Lord of Casterly Rock raised his hand in salute and dismounted, yielding the match. By then Ser Hum frey had beaten Lord Tully into surrender, showing himself as skilled with a sword as he was with a lance.

Tybolt Lannister and Androw Ashford rode against each other thrice more before Ser Androw finally lost shield, seat, and match all at once. The younger Ashford lasted even longer, breaking no less than nine lances against Ser Lyonel Baratheon, the Laughing Storm. Champion and challenger both lost their saddles on their tenth course, only to rise together to fight on, sword against mace. Finally a battered Ser Robert Ashford admitted defeat, but on the viewing stand his father looked anything but dejected.

~

etc.

Jousting is not easy. Evidence:

Quote

He gave the warhorse a light touch of spur and couched his lance. At the same time he swung his shield until it covered most of the left side of his body. He held it at an angle, to deflect blows away from him. Oak and iron guard me well, or else I’m dead and doomed to hell.

The noise of the crowd was no more than the crash of distant waves. Thunder slid into a gallop. Dunk’s teeth jarred together with the violence of the pace. He pressed his heels down, tightening his legs with all his strength and letting his body become part of the motion of the horse beneath. I am Thunder and Thunder is me, we are one beast, we are joined, we are one. The air inside his helm was already so hot he could scarce breathe.

In a tourney joust, his foe would be to his left across the tilting barrier, and he would need to swing his lance-across Thunder’s neck. The angle made it more likely that the wood would split on impact. But this was a deadlier game they played today. With no barriers dividing them, the destriers charged straight at one another. Prince Baelor’s huge black was much faster than Thunder, and Dunk glimpsed him pounding, ahead through the corner of his eye slit. He sensed more than saw the others. They do not matter, only Aerion matters, only him.

He watched the dragon come. Spatters of mud sprayed back from the hooves of Prince Aerion’s grey, and Dunk could see the horse’s nostrils flaring. The black lance still angled upward. A knight who holds his lance high and brings it on line at the last moment always risks lowering it too far, the old man had told him. He brought his own point to bear on the center of the princeling’s chest. My lance is part of my arm, he told himself. It’s my finger, a wooden finger. All I need do is touch him with my long wooden finger.

He tried not to see the sharp iron point at the end of Aerion’s black lance, growing larger with every stride. The dragon, look at the dragon, he thought. The great three-headed beast covered the prince’s shield, red wings and gold fire. No, look only where you mean to strike, he remembered suddenly, but his lance had already begun to slide off line. Dunk tried to correct, but it was too late. He saw his point strike Aerion’s shield, taking the dragon between two of its heads, gouging into a gout of painted flame. At the muffled crack, he felt Thunder recoil under him, trembling with the force of the impact, and half a heartbeat later something smashed into his side with awful force. The horses slammed together violently, armor crashing and clanging as Thunder stumbled and Dunk’s lance fell from his hand. Then he was past his foe, clutching at his saddle in a desperate effort to keep his seat. Thunder lurched sideways in the sloppy mud and Dunk felt his rear legs slip out from under. They were sliding, spinning, and then the stallion’s hindquarters slapped down hard. “Up!” Dunk roared, lashing out with his spurs.

“Up, Thunder!” And somehow the old warhorse found his feet again. He could feel a sharp pain under his rib, and his left arm was being pulled down. Aerion had driven his lance through oak, wool, and steel; three feet of splintered ash and sharp iron stuck from his side. Dunk reached over with his right hand, grasped the lance just below the head, clenched his teeth, and pulled it out of him with one savage yank. Blood followed, seeping through the rings of his mail to redden his surcoat. The world swam and he almost fell. Dimly, through the pain, he could hear voices calling his name. His beautiful shield was useless now. He tossed it aside, elm tree, shooting star, broken lance, and all, and drew his sword, but he hurt so much he did not think he could swing it.

The Mystery Knight:

Quote

When they came together, the red and white lance cracked clean in two and the blue one exploded into splinters, but neither man lost his seat.

~

The knights wheeled their horses about at the end of the lists and tossed down the jagged remains of their lances, the fourth pair they had broken.

Even if Lyanna managed to avoid, being hit by her opponents' lances, in all three challenges, she was still in pain, caused by force of impact of her own lance. Tourney lances are twelve feet long, they are HEAVY. Recoil from those hits, could have easily dislocated her shoulder, or broken her collarbone. Or she could have been stabbed with flying flinders, from her own shattered/broken lance. So even though Lyanna/MK has won, it doesn't mean, that she was completely unharmed. She was tired, bruised, and was comming off an adrenaline rush. So, most likely, on that day she went to bed early, and thus, missed all those conversations about unmasking of MK.

[kissdbyfire]

23 minutes ago, Megorova said:

Now about Lyanna - Rhaegar has crowned her, because he noticed her, before that. There was nothing special in her looks. I can name 10 female characters of ASOIAF, that are, undeniably, more visually attractive than Lyanna. So the reason, why he noticed her, is something else. And the only thing, that Lyanna did at Harrenhal, was to cry after listening to Rhaegar's song, and pouring wine on her brother's head. That's the only time, when Rhaegar could have noticed her. 

This is all speculation, your personal opinion, and lots of leaps. How can you be so sure there was nothing special about her looks? The only actual info we get on that contradicts you, even if you think your claims are "undeniable"; sorry, they are anything but. 

 

AGoT, Arya II

"Lyanna was beautiful," Arya said, startled. Everybody said so. It was not a thing that was ever said of Arya.

"She was," Eddard Stark agreed, "beautiful, and willful, and dead before her time." 

 

ADwD, Epilogue

She will never wash the stain away, no matter how hard she scrubs. Ser Kevan remembered the girl she once had been, so full of life and mischief. And when she'd flowered, ahhhh … had there ever been a maid so sweet to look upon? If Aerys had agreed to marry her to Rhaegar, how many deaths might have been avoided? Cersei could have given the prince the sons he wanted, lions with purple eyes and silver manes … and with such a wife, Rhaegar might never have looked twice at Lyanna Stark. The northern girl had a wild beauty, as he recalled, though however bright a torch might burn it could never match the rising sun.

[Mladen]

3 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

This is all speculation, your personal opinion, and lots of leaps. How can you be so sure there was nothing special about her looks? The only actual info we get on that contradicts you, even if you think your claims are "undeniable"; sorry, they are anything but. 

Not only that. People forget that Aerys sent Rhaegar in search for Knight of Laughing Tree. 

Her looks may not be the only thing Rhaegar found special. 

And my imagination of Lyanna would be rather close to Tolkien's description of Eowyn. Not the most beautiful woman, as Aragorn, IIRC, noticed, but there is something rather striking in her. 

[kissdbyfire]

10 minutes ago, Risto said:

Not only that. People forget that Aerys sent Rhaegar in search for Knight of Laughing Tree. 

Her looks may not be the only thing Rhaegar found special. 

And my imagination of Lyanna would be rather close to Tolkien's description of Eowyn. Not the most beautiful woman, as Aragorn, IIRC, noticed, but there is something rather striking in her. 

Exactly. And I'll also argue that the 'most beautiful' is in part in the eye of the beholder. People's tastes are different after all, and what one finds attractive another may not and vice-versa. 

[Megorova]

Before arguing, read until the end of post. And also, I wrote in my previous post, only about visual attractiveness, that's without inclusion of inner beauty or charisma.

2 hours ago, kissdbyfire said:

"Lyanna was beautiful," Arya said, startled. Everybody said so. It was not a thing that was ever said of Arya.

"She was," Eddard Stark agreed, "beautiful, and willful, and dead before her time." 

Of course, everyone were saying to Arya, that her aunt was beautiful. What else could they have said?

Arya and Lyanna looked very much alike. And no one ever said, that Arya was beautiful. When Bran saw Lyanna, he even thought at first, that it was Arya.

"The girl was the older and taller of the two. Arya! Bran thought eagerly, as he watched her leap up onto a rock and cut at the boy. But that couldn’t be right. If the girl was Arya, the boy was Bran himself, and he had never worn his hair so long."

"He saw no more of his father, nor the girl who looked like Arya"

Arya had long face, Sansa even gave her a nickname Horseface.

Also description "wild beauty", is more about charisma and personality, than about looks.

2 hours ago, kissdbyfire said:

had there ever been a maid so sweet to look upon? If Aerys had agreed to marry her to Rhaegar, how many deaths might have been avoided? Cersei could have given the prince the sons he wanted, lions with purple eyes and silver manes … and with such a wife, Rhaegar might never have looked twice at Lyanna Stark. The northern girl had a wild beauty, as he recalled, though however bright a torch might burn it could never match the rising sun.

This is really funny.

Kevan compared Lyanna to a bright torch, and Cersei to the rising sun. So which one is more beautiful?

And also he said/thought, that Cersei was the most sweet maid to look upon.

2 hours ago, kissdbyfire said:

even if you think your claims are "undeniable"; sorry, they are anything but. 

1. Cersei Lannister.

Young Cersei was more beautiful than Lyanna. And quote, provided by you, confirms it. I think, that Cersei even in her thirteeths, was more attractive than teenage Lyanna.

2. Ashara Dayne.

a. Lyanna's eyes were grey, and Ashara's eyes were purple. Purple-colored eyes are more beautiful.

b. Barristan Selmy said "compared to Ashara Dayne, the Dornish princess was a kitchen drab". Elia herself was far from being ugly.

c. During that feast at Harrenhal, four people asked to dance with Ashara. No one requested to dance with Lyanna.

a + b + c = Ashara was more visually attractive than Lyanna.

3. Daenerys Targaryen.

4. Shiera Seastar.

"Duels were fought over the right to sit beside her, men killed themselves after falling from her favor, poets outdid each other writing songs about her beauty." - George R.R. Martin.

5. Larra Rogare.

Just look at her official "photo" from The World Book. There's absolutely NO WAY, that Lyanna Stark was more beautiful than THIS:

https://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/File:Larra_Rogare.png

6. Rhaenyra Targaryen:

https://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/File:Young_rhaenyra_targaryen.jpg

7. Val.

8-10. I suppose, that Lyanna was closer in looks to someone like

Barba Bracken

https://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/File:Barba_Bracken.jpg

Bethany Braken

https://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/File:Bethany_Bracken.jpg

and Melissa Blackwood

https://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/File:Melissa_Blackwood.jpg

Though this three, were mistresses of Aegon IV (and he liked beautiful women), and they were part of royal court, so they were more well-groomed, than unkempt and wild tomboy Lyanna.

Other women, from ASOIAF, that had looks well above average (Lyanna's were close to average): Johanna Swann the Black Swan of Lys, Serenei of Lys, both wives of Aegon the Conqueror and probably any Valyrian woman, Ceryse and Lynesse Hightower, probably even Sansa Stark and Margaery Tyrell (even Ned thought, that Margaery was lovely).

Those ten, from the list above, are undeniably beautiful, because multiple characters from ASOIAF-world thought/said so. And, unlike in case with Lyanna, those, that were praising their beauty, weren't their relatives, or people close to them. While those, that were saying, that Lyanna was beautiful, were mostly her family members, people from Starks' household, northern bannermen. Or people, that were swept off their feet, by Lyanna's grace and kind heart, by her inner beauty and bright personality (like Howland and Rhaegar).

[kissdbyfire]

14 minutes ago, Megorova said:

Of course, everyone were saying to Arya, that her aunt was beautiful. What else could they have said?

Arya and Lyanna looked very much alike. And no one ever said, that Arya was beautiful. When Bran saw Lyanna, he even thought at first, that it was Arya.

"The girl was the older and taller of the two. Arya! Bran thought eagerly, as he watched her leap up onto a rock and cut at the boy. But that couldn’t be right. If the girl was Arya, the boy was Bran himself, and he had never worn his hair so long."

"He saw no more of his father, nor the girl who looked like Arya"

Arya had long face, Sansa even gave her a nickname Horseface.

You are completely missing the point IMO. The point of the comparison is to 'tell' the reader that, despite the fact that Arya is a disheveled tomboy, she looks like her aunt Lyanna, who was a beautiful woman. Meaning she will grow into it, late(r) bloomer and all that. And yet, you claim that since Arya looks like Lyanna and Arya is 'ugly', the point the author is making is that Lyanna was ugly as well.

Quote

Also description "wild beauty", is more about charisma and personality, than about looks.

 

Because you say so? Do you understand that's not really how it works, right? You are defining the words they fit your ideas, same as the wild leaps you make w/ the text.  

Quote

This is really funny.

Huh? Glad you are entertained. I will say I was hugely entertained by your reply as well.

Quote

Kevan compared Lyanna to a bright torch, and Cersei to the rising sun. So which one is more beautiful?

Clearly in his opinion, Cersei. Now go ask Bobby B and Eddard.

 

 

[Alexis-something-Rose]

19 minutes ago, Megorova said:

Arya and Lyanna looked very much alike. And no one ever said, that Arya was beautiful. When Bran saw Lyanna, he even thought at first, that it was Arya.

I think you are very much mistaken if you think that 10 year old Arya is not growing into a beautiful girl.

Lady Smallwood tells Arya that she is pretty (Arya IV, ASOS 22). The kindly man tells Arya she could be a courtesan and offers to send her to the Black Pearl or the Daughter of Dusk (Arya II, AFFC 22). And he offers to give her a face as pretty as her own when he sends her to Izembaro (The Ugly Little Girl, ADWD).

Ned said Lyanna was a girl of surpassing loveliness and Robert said she was more beautiful than her statue in the crypts. 

[kissdbyfire]

3 minutes ago, Widow's Watch said:

I think you are very much mistaken if you think that 10 year old Arya is not growing into a beautiful girl.

Lady Smallwood tells Arya that she is pretty (Arya IV, ASOS 22). The kindly man tells Arya she could be a courtesan and offers to send her to the Black Pearl or the Daughter of Dusk (Arya II, AFFC 22). And he offers to give her a face as pretty as her own when he sends her to Izembaro (The Ugly Little Girl, ADWD).

Ned said Lyanna was a girl of surpassing loveliness and Robert said she was more beautiful than her statue in the crypts. 

Damn! I knew I was forgetting a good one! And Eddard's 'surpassing loveliness' no less...

[Megorova]

18 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

Quote

Also description "wild beauty", is more about charisma and personality, than about looks.

 

Because you say so? Do you understand that's not really how it works, right? You are defining the words they fit your ideas, same as the wild leaps you make w/ the text.  

Describe "wild beauty in looks". ?

20 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

Clearly in his opinion, Cersei. Now go ask Bobby B and Eddard.

&

34 minutes ago, Widow's Watch said:

Ned said Lyanna was a girl of surpassing loveliness and Robert said she was more beautiful than her statue in the crypts. 

Lyanna was good and kind person. And Bobby B and Eddard knew it. Cersei is a real bitch, with horrible personality. And Kevan also knew it.

Their opinion about those two women, is based not only on their outward appearance, but also on their personalities. But even after knowing about Cersei, all those horrible things, Kevan still see her as beautiful. Thus his opinion about her looks is more objective.

BB and Ned thought, that Lyanna was beautiful, because she was precious to them, and they loved her. Same thing can't be said about relationship between Cersei and Kevan. Probably he despised her, though nevertheless he still thought, that she was beautiful. His opinion about her beauty was based strictly on her outer appearance.

Real Lyanna, may have been more beautiful, than her statue, which doesn't mean, that Lyanna was more beautiful, than Cersei.

[Clegane'sPup]

12 minutes ago, Megorova said:

Lyanna was good and kind person. And Bobby B and Eddard knew it.

That may be true. Although there is verra little information in the five books to justify personality traits of the illusive Lyanna.

 

 

 

[Ser Micaelys]

different people have different, surely by looking at the real world we see that beautiful women come in all shapes, colours and variety. Different people are attracted to different things and one possible 'flaw' could be insignificant compared tp the rest of them. Some people will look at a person and not find them attractive at all while another will think they are very, very beautiful. Some people think petite and small is more attractive, others like tall women, some like skinny women with little curves others prefer busty women and/or a larger behind. Some like fair skin, some darker, or all those in between.

All these beautiful women could all be beautiful with people ranking them differently due to their own tastes, I know many people in real life who are very taken with the dark hair and light eyes (blue, grey) combination. 

Some people are really attracted to the rare, the opposite, or some people like beauty that reflects themselves.

These are books, I don't see how we can argue over who is more attractive and just how attractive they are. 

It really baffles me that due to a long face description that means apparently someone is a write off, I've seen that expressed a lot on this site. If a longer face is the worse insult that can be thrown at a person I think we should really question how 'ugly' a person is. 

[The Weirwoods Eyes]

10 hours ago, Megorova said:

"The fair maid would sit by her father’s side as the reigning Queen of Love and Beauty. Five champions wearing her favors would defend her. All others must perforce be challengers, but any man who could defeat one of the champions would take his place and stand as a champion himself, until such time as another challenger unseated him. At the end of three days of jousting, the five who remained would determine whether the fair maid would retain the crown of Love and Beauty, or whether another would wear it in her place."

Thank you for this, So Rhaegar must have been one of the 5 as he is known to have defeated Oswald Whent who was one of the initial champions. 

 

10 hours ago, Megorova said:

Now about Lyanna - Rhaegar has crowned her, because he noticed her, before that. There was nothing special in her looks.

Well this is bollocks, we are specifically told multiple times in the series that Lyanna was very beautiful, but that as well she had a wild beauty, something about her that made her very appealing. Not to mention that attraction is entirely subjective! 

10 hours ago, Megorova said:

About shield - it was Howland's. Out of three Starks, only Brandon participated in tournament. The other two wasn't going to. So how many (spare) shields did they took with them to Harrenhal? Even if they took their shields to Harrenhal, then most likely, each of them took only one.

Nonsense! Each man hoping to compete in the lists would take multiple shields. Just as they'd take multiple lances. These things get broken. Not to mention that Lyanna is not restricted to her brothers shields as a Stark she can wander pretty freely amongst the Northern contingent.  And also so what if Brandon noted one of his shields was missing? He's been shown to be a man that wishes his sister to be seen as a good, demure, maidenly lass. The outrage he shows when she is crowned Q of L&B tells us this. He might have realised himself what Lyanna did, chastise her privately and keep it secret. That is what most men would do in that situation I think. 

 

10 hours ago, Megorova said:

What made you think, that there was a feast, on every day of tournament?

well the quote from the book. 

ASOS: Bran II

Quote

"No," said Meera. "That night at the great castle, the storm lord and the knight of skulls and kisses each swore they would unmask him, and the king himself urged men to challenge him, declaring that the face behind that helm was no friend of his. But the next morning, when the heralds blew their trumpets and the king took his seat, only two champions appeared. The Knight of the Laughing Tree had vanished. The king was wroth, and even sent his son the dragon prince to seek the man, but all they ever found was his painted shield, hanging abandoned in a tree. It was the dragon prince who won that tourney in the end."

This scene is set at the great castle. Meaning these events all take place there.  If the author wanted to convey the idea that Aerys was in private when he declared this he would have indicated that. Such as "back in his pavilion tent the king......." But no, he has Aerys deceleration come within the same sentence even as Robert & Lonmouths oaths. 

As to your fiction that Lyanna would have gone to bed early because she had a broken collar bone/dislocated shoulder/or whatever. BS. There is nothing to indicate this again you're misunderstanding how this works. It isn't a case of we insert whatever the hell theory we like because there isn't anything specifying that it didn't happen.

The way it works is that we use the information within the text and supportive information where appropriate, and interpret from that what we think might have happened/happen. Had the author wished to convey that Lyanna was injured he'd have had someone tell us that the Wolf Maid was wincing, or limping. 

The information we have is that they feast in the great hall of the castle, and on the first night Lyanna tipped wine on her brother and on the second Aerys declared he wanted the MK unmasked. There is nothing in this to indicate that anyone who was at the great feast the first night was not on the second nor that the King was not in the same place as everyone else. 

You can't just make stuff up to fit your theory. There has to be evidence of it.