Order of the Green Hand says Jon is Ned’s trueborn son with Ashara? I’m not sure...

[The Weirwoods Eyes]

Wow apparently there is a standardised scale of female beauty with blonde at the top. And purple eyes outranking Grey eyes. I guess no one mentioned that to the rest of the world! huh!

 

[Alexis-something-Rose]

9 hours ago, Megorova said:

Lyanna was good and kind person. And Bobby B and Eddard knew it. Cersei is a real bitch, with horrible personality. And Kevan also knew it.

Their opinion about those two women, is based not only on their outward appearance, but also on their personalities. But even after knowing about Cersei, all those horrible things, Kevan still see her as beautiful. Thus his opinion about her looks is more objective.

BB and Ned thought, that Lyanna was beautiful, because she was precious to them, and they loved her. Same thing can't be said about relationship between Cersei and Kevan. Probably he despised her, though nevertheless he still thought, that she was beautiful. His opinion about her beauty was based strictly on her outer appearance.

Real Lyanna, may have been more beautiful, than her statue, which doesn't mean, that Lyanna was more beautiful, than Cersei.

Dude, Lyanna was beautiful. That's what we are told in the story. Period.

This isn't about how precious Lyanna was to Robert or to Ned or to the people in Winterfell or the north. The girl was beautiful. 

Kevan and Cersei's opinions that Rhaegar would never have looked twice at Lyanna had he married Cersei are just that, their opinions. It doesn't look like Rhaegar looked twice at Cersei when she lived in the Red Keep while Tywin was Hand in any case.  

Long face doesn't mean ugly and this bugs the hell out of me, personally, that this has become some sort of scale to judge if Lyanna was beautiful, if Arya and Jon are unattractive. 

Anyway.

 

[Megorova]

8 hours ago, Ser Micaelys said:

different people have different, surely by looking at the real world we see that beautiful women come in all shapes, colours and variety. Different people are attracted to different things and one possible 'flaw' could be insignificant compared tp the rest of them. Some people will look at a person and not find them attractive at all while another will think they are very, very beautiful. Some people think petite and small is more attractive, others like tall women, some like skinny women with little curves others prefer busty women and/or a larger behind. Some like fair skin, some darker, or all those in between.

All these beautiful women could all be beautiful with people ranking them differently due to their own tastes, I know many people in real life who are very taken with the dark hair and light eyes (blue, grey) combination. 

Some people are really attracted to the rare, the opposite, or some people like beauty that reflects themselves.

These are books, I don't see how we can argue over who is more attractive and just how attractive they are. 

It really baffles me that due to a long face description that means apparently someone is a write off, I've seen that expressed a lot on this site. If a longer face is the worse insult that can be thrown at a person I think we should really question how 'ugly' a person is. 

I didn't said, that Lyanna was ugly, or that long face is equal to being unattractive. Good example is Hilary Rhoda, she has long face, but she's beautiful, one of the world's TOP-models.

http://fabwags.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/03/Hilary-Rhoda-estee-Lauder-pics.jpg

https://jeremydante.files.wordpress.com/2009/10/hilaryrhoda-esteelauder.jpg?w=500&h=684

http://fashion.zarzarmodels.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/09/Beautiful-Model-Hilary-Rhoda-Modeling-For-Estee-Lauder-Cosmetics-Ads-Modeling-As-One-Of-The-Highest-Paid-Models-In-The-World.-The-World’s-Highest-Paid-Models.-746x1024.jpg

 

I just said, that, most likely, the reason, why Rhaegar noticed Lyanna, wasn't her looks. Her looks were above average. People, that knew her, said, that she was beautiful. Mostly it was her own relatives, or people from her household. They judged her looks, thru prism of her lovely and kind personality. Thus their opinion, that she was beautiful, was subjective. Other people, that didn't knew Lyanna, when seeing her for the first time, wouldn't think, that she's some sort of renown beauty.

Also Rhaegar, his entire life was surrounded by really beautiful women. Highborn ladies, that had servants and maids, and were pampered and groomed, had flawless skin, gorgeous hair, luxury dresses, and best jewelry. Women like Rhaegar's mother, Cersei, Ashara Dayne, etc. He saw portraits of his Valyrian ancestors/relatives, the most beautiful women in the world, such as Shiera Seastar, Rhaenyra, Naerys, Daenerys (wife of Maron Martell), Alysanne, Larra Rogare, Valaena and Daenaera Velaryon, etc. 

Based on case of Lynesse Hightower and Sansa Stark, it seems, that in The North, women are more plain, and less groomed, than in the south. They have simpler clothes, rarely wear jewellery, have plainer hairstyles, etc.

So, someone like Rhaegar (someone who was always surrounded by beauty) wouldn't have looked twice, at someone like Lyanna (girl, whose looks were above average, but not as vivid and gorgeous, as other women from Rhaegar's life).

Thus I said, that, probably, the reason, why Rhaegar noticed Lyanna, was something else, not her looks. I think, that he noticed her either because she cried, after listening to his song (he composed and wrote it), and he was flattered by her reaction, or because of the scene, that she caused after that, by pouring wine over Benjen's head. It was unlady-like behaviour, and Rhaegar became curious, who she is. He watched her, and later realised, that she is The Knight of the Laughting Tree <- and this was the reason, why he fell in love - because of her bravery, kindness, sense of justice, and unique personality. For him she was like a breath of fresh air. He was smitten by her wild beauty (not in a sence of her looks, but in a sence of what kind of person she was).

6 hours ago, The Weirwoods Eyes said:

Well this is bollocks, we are specifically told multiple times in the series that Lyanna was very beautiful, but that as well she had a wild beauty, something about her that made her very appealing. Not to mention that attraction is entirely subjective! 

Read the text above your quote, starting from "I just said, that, most likely, the reason, why Rhaegar noticed Lyanna, wasn't her looks. ..."

6 hours ago, The Weirwoods Eyes said:

This scene is set at the great castle. Meaning these events all take place there. 

That quote doesn't mean, that all attendants of tournament were there at that moment, to eat dinner, like it was two days before, during great feast. It's obvious, that King was staying in the castle, for every evening and every night, and that many Lords were also frequently in the castle. Though the great feast for all highborn, was held only on first day of tournament. The castle wouldn't be able to feed all those people everyday.

7 hours ago, The Weirwoods Eyes said:

As to your fiction that Lyanna would have gone to bed early because she had a broken collar bone/dislocated shoulder/or whatever. BS. There is nothing to indicate this again you're misunderstanding how this works.

Jousting is an activity strenuous for body.

Women are usually weaker, more delicate and fragile than men.

Even if Lyanna didn't broken anything, she was still tired, and in pain, after extensive physical strain.

When people are tired, and in pain, it is visible. So if she stayed with her brothers, attending dinner/supper, and other evening activities, than, it's likely, that her brothers would have noticed, that there's somethinbg wrong with her.

7 hours ago, The Weirwoods Eyes said:

Had the author wished to convey that Lyanna was injured he'd have had someone tell us that the Wolf Maid was wincing, or limping. 

If she went early to bed, or made herself scarce, then Howland wouldn't have noticed anything suspicious. And thus, this detail didn't made it into his story.

7 hours ago, The Weirwoods Eyes said:

The information we have is that they feast in the great hall of the castle, and on the first night Lyanna tipped wine on her brother and on the second Aerys declared he wanted the MK unmasked. There is nothing in this to indicate that anyone who was at the great feast the first night was not on the second nor that the King was not in the same place as everyone else. 

The great feast was on opening day of tournament. Then on second day the jousting started. Then on third day MK appeared. And on morning of fourth day disappeared, and his shield was found. Then two more days of jousting. And four more days of other activities. The tournament lasted 10 days in total. Do you think, they were able to feed hundreds of people for 10 days?

[Megorova]

7 hours ago, The Weirwoods Eyes said:

Wow apparently there is a standardised scale of female beauty with blonde at the top. And purple eyes outranking Grey eyes. I guess no one mentioned that to the rest of the world! huh!

 

Not necessary in that order. Cersei is not the most beautiful woman in the ASOIAF-world. The most beautiful was young Shiera Seastar <- this is based on GRRM's words.

Out of those 10 beauties, 6 are blondes, and 4 are dark-haired. That's because they live in the world, where exists Valyrian race. Valyrians are like elves - magically beautiful. Out of those 6 blondes, 4 are Valyrians.

In the real world modern standards of beauty are different. For example, in a list of 100 most beautiful of 2017, in TOP-20 there were only 2 blondes and 18 women with dark hair.

http://goodfullness.net/100-beautiful-faces-2017-ranked-critics/

So if we'll remove Valyrians from that list of ASOIAF's TOP-10, then majority of beauties there, will be dark-haired, like it is in real world's lists of TOP-beauties.

5 hours ago, Widow's Watch said:

Dude, Lyanna was beautiful. That's what we are told in the story. Period.

Ok.

5 hours ago, Widow's Watch said:

Long face doesn't mean ugly and this bugs the hell out of me, personally, that this has become some sort of scale to judge if Lyanna was beautiful, if Arya and Jon are unattractive. 

It's Sansa, who thinks, that Arya's face is less beautiful, than her own, just because it's long.

[Nittanian]

18 hours ago, kissdbyfire said:

Exactly. And I'll also argue that the 'most beautiful' is in part in the eye of the beholder. People's tastes are different after all, and what one finds attractive another may not and vice-versa. 

Yep. The views of the Starks and Kevan have already been mentioned, but Yandel writes, "The crowning of the Stark girl, who was by all reports a wild and boyish young thing with none of the Princess Elia's delicate beauty, could only have been meant to win the allegiance of Winterfell to Prince Rhaegar's cause, Symond Staunton suggested to the king."

[kissdbyfire]

1 hour ago, Megorova said:

just said, that, most likely, the reason, why Rhaegar noticed Lyanna, wasn't her looks. Her looks were above average. People, that knew her, said, that she was beautiful. Mostly it was her own relatives, or people from her household. They judged her looks, thru prism of her lovely and kind personality. Thus their opinion, that she was beautiful, was subjective. Other people, that didn't knew Lyanna, when seeing her for the first time, wouldn't think, that she's some sort of renown beauty.

You're backtracking a bit but whatever. What I really wanted to say is that the above is, as usual, an opinion being presented as fact. I don't understand why you do this, but there you go. 

Also, you keep pushing this idea that those who claim Lyanna was beautiful are doing it because she was so good and kind. Well, she may very well have been all that but chances are she was very wilful and stubborn, hence why Eddard compares Arya to her when he discovers Needle and they have that talk about Lyanna. 

[Faera]

12 hours ago, The Weirwoods Eyes said:

Wow apparently there is a standardised scale of female beauty with blonde at the top. And purple eyes outranking Grey eyes. I guess no one mentioned that to the rest of the world! huh!

 

Well, Rhaegar seems to have preferred brunettes... 
 

3 hours ago, kissdbyfire said:

4 hours ago, Megorova said:

just said, that, most likely, the reason, why Rhaegar noticed Lyanna, wasn't her looks. Her looks were above average. People, that knew her, said, that she was beautiful. Mostly it was her own relatives, or people from her household. They judged her looks, thru prism of her lovely and kind personality. Thus their opinion, that she was beautiful, was subjective. Other people, that didn't knew Lyanna, when seeing her for the first time, wouldn't think, that she's some sort of renown beauty.

You're backtracking a bit but whatever. What I really wanted to say is that the above is, as usual, an opinion being presented as fact. I don't understand why you do this, but there you go. 

Also, you keep pushing this idea that those who claim Lyanna was beautiful are doing it because she was so good and kind. Well, she may very well have been all that but chances are she was very wilful and stubborn, hence why Eddard compares Arya to her when he discovers Needle and they have that talk about Lyanna. 

Anyhoo, I also don't see why Lyanna can't be pretty and have a strong, moral centre. 

Physically, I think we can say that Lyanna was attractive. This notion of her being "beautiful on the inside" doesn't quite fit as those who talk down her attractiveness are usually those with an agenda. Enough people say she was pretty and beautiful enough to say by their standards, she was. As for Arya being considered plain or ugly... that doesn't mean anything. Plenty of young girls grow into their beauty, so Arya is likely the same. Perhaps Lyanna started out much the same way. 

Besides, while I would agree Lyanna seemed for the most part to be a "good" person, personality wise, what little we know of her indicates that she was quite impetuous, hot-headed, daring, reckless and thoughtless at times.

The only story we have of her doing something kind was helping Howland. She knew Howland was her father's bannerman and, thus, under the Stark's protection. So, she helped him. Then she invited him to sit with the Northern delegation because it was his right - crannogman or not he was still highborn and noble. The Knight of the Laughing Tree stunt was about justice for Howland but it's hard not to think Lyanna wasn't getting something out of it too for herself, to prove that she could. "There's no such thing as a selfless good deed" and all. Either way, Lyanna saw Howland's wellfare as her responsibility as a Stark. 

From Howland is slanted in favour of the Starks since he knew Lyanna and became good friends with Ned, but on a cultural level what Lyanna was doing was fulfilling her part in the Reeds' Oath without even realising it;

"To Winterfell we pledge the faith of Greywater, hearth and heart and harvest we yield up to you, Our swords and spears and arrows are yours to command. Grant mercy to our weak, help to our helpless, and justice to all, and we shall never fail you.
[We] swear it by earth and water... by bronze and iron... by ice and fire."

She helped him when he was helpless and aided him in seeking justice. Essentially, she stepped in to aid Howland from what was effectively a racially motivated attack. We see that crannogmen have numerous derogatory names to describe them by Riverlanders, Ironborn and even other Northerners, and Meera as good as prefaces this in a euphemistic way for Bran in her story "We're a small folk, and our ways seem queer to some, so the big people do not always treat us kindly." Lyanna's actions of charging in and waving a wooden sword might be called kind it speaks more to a strong sense of belief in fairness and giving her family's people their due.

To me, if Rhaegar did learn she was the Knight of the Laughing Tree and kept her secret, giving her the QoL&B crown as a token of her actions it was he admired her actions. Still, I must agree with the point that at a joust where there were tons upon tons of attractive young women Lyanna probably wouldn't have stuck out based on her looks alone. I don't  think he wouldn't have paid her any heed for pouring wine over Benjen's head, either. Probably the first time he even gave her any consideration was the speculative "if" he managed to catch the Knight of the Laughing Tree and realised she was just a fourteen-year-old girl.

4 hours ago, Megorova said:

12 hours ago, The Weirwoods Eyes said:

Had the author wished to convey that Lyanna was injured he'd have had someone tell us that the Wolf Maid was wincing, or limping. 

If she went early to bed, or made herself scarce, then Howland wouldn't have noticed anything suspicious. And thus, this detail didn't made it into his story.

The point is that had GRRM wished to convey that jousting was so taxing on Lyanna, and it was an important point, then he would have included it in Meera's story. If Howland didn't see that bit or Meera purposely left that bit out then that makes it a moot point anyway.

[Alexis-something-Rose]

53 minutes ago, Faera said:

Probably the first time he even gave her any consideration was the speculative "if" he managed to catch the Knight of the Laughing Tree and realised she was just a fourteen-year-old girl.

Or if he saw her chasing off the squires. 

I know, there's nothing in the text to support this.

[kissdbyfire]

2 minutes ago, Widow's Watch said:

Or if he saw her chasing off the squires. 

I know, there's nothing in the text to support this.

This, definitely. To me it's a very likely scenario, actually, even w/o anything in the text to support it. After all, it all happened in plain view of... whoever was nearby. So I think it's very possible that either Rhaegar himself or someone close to him saw it happen. 

[Alexis-something-Rose]

33 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

This, definitely. To me it's a very likely scenario, actually, even w/o anything in the text to support it. After all, it all happened in plain view of... whoever was nearby. So I think it's very possible that either Rhaegar himself or someone close to him saw it happen. 

If he did see her, then it might have been easy to put two and two together when he saw the mystery knight and who they challenged. He may even have gone to find her afterward. 

Rhaegar is only sent the next morning to find the mystery knight by Aerys when they fail to show up. 

[Megorova]

2 hours ago, Widow's Watch said:

Or if he saw her chasing off the squires. 

I know, there's nothing in the text to support this.

Rhaegar sometimes performed as a street mummer, incognito, obviously. And there was a mummers show, during Tournament at Harrenhal. So maybe, when Lyanna was chasing off those squires, Rhaegar was amongst crowd in there, in his "costume".

3 hours ago, Faera said:

Our swords and spears and arrows are yours to command.

The "shields" part is missing from the oath, something like "protect you with our shields". Could be a clue, that Starks already had a shield of Reeds (i.e. Lyanna was the Mystery Knight, and the shield with laughing tree originally was Howland's).

[kissdbyfire]

24 minutes ago, Megorova said:

Rhaegar sometimes performed as a street mummer, incognito, obviously. And there was a mummers show, during Tournament at Harrenhal. So maybe, when Lyanna was chasing off those squires, Rhaegar was amongst crowd in there, in his "costume".

No, the street musician bit then going to the pub and getting hammered is a(nother) stupid invention of the abomination.

[Alexis-something-Rose]

23 minutes ago, Megorova said:

Rhaegar sometimes performed as a street mummer, incognito, obviously.

There's nothing in the text to support that.

[Ygrain]

8 hours ago, Faera said:

As for Arya being considered plain or ugly... that doesn't mean anything. Plenty of young girls grow into their beauty, so Arya is likely the same. Perhaps Lyanna started out much the same way. 

"The city watch is looking for a certain ugly girl, known to frequent the Purple Harbor, so best you have a new face as well.” He cupped her chin, turned her head this way and that, nodded. “A pretty one this time, I think. As pretty as your own."

I don't think the kindly man is the type for false compliment, so it is pretty (pun intended) safe to assume that at this point, Arya is no longer the ugly duckling she used to be.

Also, not really sure where the talk about Lyanna being average comes from - besides Ned mentioning her beauty several times, we have Robert, a notorious womanizer, smitten with her (and given that Ned points out that Robert didn't really know her, it was the looks, not the character, that appealed to Robert). Even Cersei fan Kevan points out that there was something about Lyanna ("wild beauty").

[The Weirwoods Eyes]

13 hours ago, Megorova said:

Snip

You are still misunderstanding how this works. You don't just insert what you want into the story. You assess the information the author gives. 

Howland wouldn't notice anything so it wouldn't make it into the story ? dude. Howland isn't real! What makes it into the story is what GRRM wants to tell us. And if he'd wanted to convey the idea that Aerys spoke in private, or that Lyanna missed the declaration, or that she'd used Howlands shield, or any of the rest that you have made up then he'd have dropped a hint! 

work with what is actually in the text, accent it with supportive materials from folklore or myths or other literature sure. But it HAS to support the text. Nothing you have written is supported by the text it is all just possibilities based on your opinion. 

 

[The Weirwoods Eyes]

13 hours ago, Megorova said:

Not necessary in that order. Cersei is not the most beautiful woman in the ASOIAF-world. The most beautiful was young Shiera Seastar <- this is based on GRRM's words.

Out of those 10 beauties, 6 are blondes, and 4 are dark-haired. That's because they live in the world, where exists Valyrian race. Valyrians are like elves - magically beautiful. Out of those 6 blondes, 4 are Valyrians.

In the real world modern standards of beauty are different. For example, in a list of 100 most beautiful of 2017, in TOP-20 there were only 2 blondes and 18 women with dark hair.

http://goodfullness.net/100-beautiful-faces-2017-ranked-critics/

So if we'll remove Valyrians from that list of ASOIAF's TOP-10, then majority of beauties there, will be dark-haired, like it is in real world's lists of TOP-beauties.

Do you not understand sarcasm? 

Also mate there is no definition of beauty. Those lists are the opinions of a few people choosing from a narrow field of women. 

 

[Ygrain]

On 6/29/2018 at 4:59 AM, Belgarad said:

I've seen a few of their videos, and in my opinion, they have thoroughly worn out their Jump to Conclusions Mat.

 

On 6/29/2018 at 6:34 AM, Wall Flower said:

I made the mistake of clicking on their Catelyn video. I only lasted as long as them proclaiming her the 'worst person ever' and a stone cold psychopath. Doesn't fill me with confidence about their ability to analyse the books or characters.

About the same here.

Basically, the Order coming up with some theory means it 100% ain't true. Nothing in Ned's PoVs indicates any guilt towards Catelyn other than bringing Jon to Winterfell, nowhere does he indicate that his children aren't trueborn. And when asked if he loves his children, he leaves out Jon from the mental list. The one person haunting his memories and dreams is Lyanna, not Ashara, though under the theory, both Ashara and Catelyn should be the ones filling him with guilt and bad dreams. And so on.

[Faera]

11 hours ago, Widow's Watch said:

Or if he saw her chasing off the squires. 

I know, there's nothing in the text to support this.

Sure, I guess he could have witnessed any one of those events in theory. It's just that him actually catching Lyanna in the act of disposing of the shield is the most plausible based in the information in the tale.

8 hours ago, Megorova said:

The "shields" part is missing from the oath, something like "protect you with our shields". Could be a clue, that Starks already had a shield of Reeds (i.e. Lyanna was the Mystery Knight, and the shield with laughing tree originally was Howland's).

All I really meant was from Howland's point of view when Lyanna stepped in to help him she was completing her family's side of the oath. I don't think it's any clue that the Starks have a Reed shield or anything because, as you said, there is no mention of shields at all in the oath, so, you're reading something into nothing there.

That said, I have no objection to the shield the KotLT being Howland's - or at least found, sourced or even painted by Howland - because the "Laughing Tree" feels it would have more personal significance to Howland himself as an acolyte of the Green Men rather than a Reed symbol. If it was a Reed shield, it would have a lizard-lion on it - or just be plain bronze, probably.

3 hours ago, Ygrain said:

"The city watch is looking for a certain ugly girl, known to frequent the Purple Harbor, so best you have a new face as well.” He cupped her chin, turned her head this way and that, nodded. “A pretty one this time, I think. As pretty as your own."

I don't think the kindly man is the type for false compliment, so it is pretty (pun intended) safe to assume that at this point, Arya is no longer the ugly duckling she used to be.

Also, not really sure where the talk about Lyanna being average comes from - besides Ned mentioning her beauty several times, we have Robert, a notorious womanizer, smitten with her (and given that Ned points out that Robert didn't really know her, it was the looks, not the character, that appealed to Robert). Even Cersei fan Kevan points out that there was something about Lyanna ("wild beauty").

Sure, I agree. I was just negotiating my way through this massive debate over in what sense Lyanna was beautiful.

And no, I'm not sure how the discussion came about. I was only gone for a day or so and came back to it! 

[Corvo the Crow]

On 7/5/2018 at 3:52 AM, Widow's Watch said:

Ned said Lyanna was a girl of surpassing loveliness and Robert said she was more beautiful than her statue in the crypts.

More beautiful than the the statue...

Quote

A Game of Thrones - Bran VII

"The maid's a fair one," Osha said.

"Robert was betrothed to marry her, but Prince Rhaegar carried her off and rapedher," Bran explained. "Robert fought a war to win her back. He killed Rhaegar on the Trident with his hammer, but Lyanna died and he never got her back at all."

The statue is already depicting a maid fair, if it's more beautiful than that.

[Alexis-something-Rose]

1 hour ago, Faera said:

And no, I'm not sure how the discussion came about. I was only gone for a day or so and came back to it! 

Well this thread has turned into a clusterfuck.