Order of the Green Hand says Jon is Ned’s trueborn son with Ashara? I’m not sure...

[The Weirwoods Eyes]

49 minutes ago, The Hidden Dragon said:

Exactly!  Ned's own thoughts are the biggest proof, not a clue, but are proof that Jon is not Ned's son.

Having said that...I do believe that there is something about Ashara that Ned wants kept hidden, something important.  I don't believe she is a red herring.  In AGOT, after Catelyn brings up Ashara to Ned, he goes out of his way to make sure that Ashara's name is never spoken again in Winterfell.  Why, if not to keep some secret hidden? 

 

Actually Ned says' 

Quote

And they told how afterward Ned had carried Ser Arthur's sword back to the beautiful young sister who awaited him in a castle called Starfall on the shores of the Summer Sea. The Lady Ashara Dayne, tall and fair, with haunting violet eyes. It had taken her a fortnight to marshal her courage, but finally, in bed one night, Catelyn had asked her husband the truth of it, asked him to his face.

That was the only time in all their years that Ned had ever frightened her. "Never ask me about Jon," he said, cold as ice. "He is my blood, and that is all you need to know. And now I will learn where you heard that name, my lady." She had pledged to obey; she told him; and from that day on, the whispering had stopped, and Ashara Dayne's name was never heard in Winterfell again.

Whoever Jon's mother had been, Ned must have loved her fiercely, for nothing Catelyn said would persuade him to send the boy away. It was the one thing she could never forgive him. She had come to love her husband with all her heart, but she had never found it in her to love Jon.

Ned tells her to never ask about Jon, and then asks where she heard the name of Ashara; one presumes in relation to her asking if she was Jon's mother, The name is never heard by Cat in Wf again ever since. 

Though the real icing on the cake is that she thinks Ned must have loved Jon's mother fiercely, Certainly Ned didn't love Ashara fiercely as he never thinks of her once in his own POV. 

I suspect the explanation for him wanting his servants to shut up about Ashara is to do with Brandon, who lets not forget  was betrothed to Catelyn for many years during which he seems to have philandered his way through a few maids including Ashara. Who he very likely impregnated. Now given that Brandon is dead and Ned seems to have wanted to make a good marriage with Cat I doubt he wants her uncovering the truth about his dog of a brother. So I suggest he simply wanted to save her any heart ache at having been cheated on. As such. 

Did you read my earlier post in this thread breaking down each mention of Ashara Dayne in the text? 

[The Weirwoods Eyes]

1 hour ago, Bloodraven's Spider said:

Coy is the nature of the game (silent but deadly)... but seriously does Ned Daynes comments hold no water? We automatically dismiss them... They hold alot of weight imo

in what way do they hold weight? 

[Bloodraven's Spider]

5 minutes ago, The Weirwoods Eyes said:

in what way do they hold weight? 

They hold weight because it brings his relationship with Ashara to life

21 minutes ago, Faera said:

Don't forget Daenerys! Quadruplets.

EDIT: @kissdbyfire I am telling the truth, BTW. Here it it:

Get ready for twincest 2.0, oh, devotee of J+V=OTP. 

Oh, and Mance is Arthur Dayne, too.

If Ned Dayne's comments hold a lot of weight then I guess Wylla must be Jon's mother.
 

I always read it as him simply not wanting people to discuss Jon's mother.

That was the only time in all their years that Ned had ever frightened her. "Never ask me about Jon," he said, cold as ice. "He is my blood, and that is all you need to know. And now I will learn where you heard that name, my lady." She had pledged to obey; she told him; and from that day on, the whispering had stopped, and Ashara Dayne's name was never heard in Winterfell again.

Perhaps a part of him also didn't want any further tarnishing of the poor woman's name as well. I don't think it's any more than that. Had Ashara been significant to Ned in some way, I would have expected thought of her in his POVs yet we receive none and when Cersei mentions Ashara, we do not receive a reaction. Therefore it is Cat's paranoia and gossip feeding into the Ashara theory and little else.

I think he must have some idea given Benjen was First Ranger in the Night's Watch. However, the way in which the situation was painted when Ned was being essentially bullied into going South, that Cat would not let Jon stay at Winterfell without Ned there and he felt couldn't take him to court where he would be ridiculed more than anything as a bastard. If Jon had those connections in the somewhat more accepting Dorne, in House Dayne, it would have made more sense to reach out to them to give Jon a home.

The sending of Jon to the Wall to essentially be put under Benjen's watchful eye was about the best choice out of nothing but crappy choices for a secret son of Lyanna or, heck, the son of a nobody wetnurse or fisherman's daughter.

Ned reacts to cercei when she throws Ashara's name at him. After that, he tells her to leave Westeros...

"Honor," she spat. "How dare you play the noble lord with me! What do you take me for? You've a bastard of your own, I've seen him. Who was the mother, I wonder? Some Dornish peasant you raped while her holdfast burned? A whore? Or was it the grieving sister, the Lady Ashara? She threw herself into the sea, I'm told. Why was that? For the brother you slew, or the child you stole? Tell me, my honorable Lord Eddard, how are you any different from Robert, or me, or Jaime?"

"For a start," said Ned, "I do not kill children. You would do well to listen, my lady. I shall say this only once. When the king returns from his hunt, I intend to lay the truth before him. You must be gone by then. You and your children, all three, and not to Casterly Rock. If I were you, I should take ship for the Free Cities, or even farther, to the Summer Isles or the Port of Ibben. As far as the winds blow."

 

 

[The Weirwoods Eyes]

13 minutes ago, Bloodraven's Spider said:

They hold weight because it brings his relationship with Ashara to life

He never had a relationship with Ashara he's twelve years old she died before he was born. 

[The Weirwoods Eyes]

14 minutes ago, Bloodraven's Spider said:

"For a start," said Ned, "I do not kill children. You would do well to listen, my lady. I shall say this only once. When the king returns from his hunt, I intend to lay the truth before him. You must be gone by then. You and your children, all three, and not to Casterly Rock. If I were you, I should take ship for the Free Cities, or even farther, to the Summer Isles or the Port of Ibben. As far as the winds blow."

But Neds reaction has fuck all to do with Ashara; he reacts to Cersei's assertion that he is no better than her.  And he says that he doesn't kill children for a start; a thing she has done and Ned knows it,  then tells her to leave westeros because he is going to tell Robert.

Robert who doesn't mind killing children one bit. And whose children she has killed and who knows she has killed his children. Don't you think he might be tempted to kill hers in payback? 

Quote

"Exile," she said. "A bitter cup to drink from."

"A sweeter cup than your father served Rhaegar's children," Ned said, "and kinder than you deserve. Your father and your brothers would do well to go with you. Lord Tywin's gold will buy you comfort and hire swords to keep you safe. You shall need them. I promise you, no matter where you flee, Robert's wrath will follow you, to the back of beyond if need be."

The queen stood. "And what of my wrath, Lord Stark?" she asked softly. Her eyes searched his face. "You should have taken the realm for yourself. It was there for the taking. Jaime told me how you found him on the Iron Throne the day King's Landing fell, and made him yield it up. That was your moment. All you needed to do was climb those steps, and sit. Such a sad mistake."

"I have made more mistakes than you can possibly imagine," Ned said, "but that was not one of them."

"Oh, but it was, my lord," Cersei insisted. "When you play the game of thrones, you win or you die. There is no middle ground."

She turned up her hood to hide her swollen face and left him there in the dark beneath the oak, amidst the quiet of the godswood, under a blue-black sky. The stars were coming out.

Here in the rest of that scene we see that not once do Ned's thoughts turn to or include Ashara. He focuses entirely on Roberts willingness to kill children, and tells Cersei he has made more mistakes than she can imagine (These might relate to Jon I'd imagine.) But that not taking the IT was not one of them.  

[Ygrain]

 

1 hour ago, EloImFizzy said:

But saying that if I where Ned Stark I also wouldn't send either my own son, or the last connection I have to my sister off to freeze his balls off at the wall. Sure you could say that Jon wanted to go, but he also wasn't told about what the Nights Watch had become, and going by his reaction when he arrived at the wall, there is no way in hell he would have chosen that route had Ned told him the truth. 

But then again I suppose you could argue that point by saying someone with Ned's personality might just be unable to see what the Nights Watch has become himself. 

Since the NW doesn't take part in the politicking, it's the only place where Jon would be safe, should the truth of his origin out. Plus, there was Uncle Benjen in a position to look out for Jon, so between the secret and Cat's unwillingness to put up with Jon any longer, Ned probably felt it wasn't such a bad solution.

50 minutes ago, Faera said:

Oh, and Mance is Arthur Dayne, too.

I am Arthur, and so is my wife!

 

50 minutes ago, Faera said:

If Ned Dayne's comments hold a lot of weight then I guess Wylla must be Jon's mother.

Ninjaed to that!  

Jon is Ned's son by Wylla and Ned's relationship with Ashara was purely platonic. It must be true because a kid born two years later was definitely told the truth of it.

 

50 minutes ago, Faera said:

Perhaps a part of him also didn't want any further tarnishing of the poor woman's name as well.

That's what I think very likely, too. Especially if he did have an unreciprocated crush on her.

50 minutes ago, Faera said:

 Ned felt couldn't take him to court where he would be ridiculed more than anything as a bastard.

Or perhaps Ned was being paranoid about his secret and worried - not unreasonably - that someone like Varys might put two and two together?

[Faera]

1 hour ago, Bloodraven's Spider said:

They hold weight because it brings his relationship with Ashara to life

How? Ned wasn't born at the time. Plus, he is reciting second-hand information he got off his aunt Allyria who herself was probably a very young child at the time of the Tourney of Harrenhal occurred, if she was even born. That's no better than Catelyn or Cersei reciting court gossip.

Besides, as I said, by your own logic, we must conclude that Wylla is Jon's mother.

1 hour ago, Bloodraven's Spider said:

Ned reacts to cercei when she throws Ashara's name at him. After that, he tells her to leave Westeros...

With all due respect, that's not what happened. I defer to @The Weirwoods Eyes, who says pretty much what I would have said:

56 minutes ago, The Weirwoods Eyes said:

But Neds reaction has fuck all to do with Ashara; he reacts to Cersei's assertion that he is no better than her.  And he says that he doesn't kill children for a start; a thing she has done and Ned knows it,  then tells her to leave westeros because he is going to tell Robert.

Robert who doesn't mind killing children one bit. And whose children she has killed and who knows she has killed his children. Don't you think he might be tempted to kill hers in payback? 

Quote

"Exile," she said. "A bitter cup to drink from."

"A sweeter cup than your father served Rhaegar's children," Ned said, "and kinder than you deserve. Your father and your brothers would do well to go with you. Lord Tywin's gold will buy you comfort and hire swords to keep you safe. You shall need them. I promise you, no matter where you flee, Robert's wrath will follow you, to the back of beyond if need be."

The queen stood. "And what of my wrath, Lord Stark?" she asked softly. Her eyes searched his face. "You should have taken the realm for yourself. It was there for the taking. Jaime told me how you found him on the Iron Throne the day King's Landing fell, and made him yield it up. That was your moment. All you needed to do was climb those steps, and sit. Such a sad mistake."

"I have made more mistakes than you can possibly imagine," Ned said, "but that was not one of them."

"Oh, but it was, my lord," Cersei insisted. "When you play the game of thrones, you win or you die. There is no middle ground."

She turned up her hood to hide her swollen face and left him there in the dark beneath the oak, amidst the quiet of the godswood, under a blue-black sky. The stars were coming out.

Here in the rest of that scene we see that not once do Ned's thoughts turn to or include Ashara. He focuses entirely on Roberts willingness to kill children, and tells Cersei he has made more mistakes than she can imagine (These might relate to Jon I'd imagine.) But that not taking the IT was not one of them.  

Had GRRM meant that to be such a knee-jerk reaction, he would written some sort of inner response. "That name hit hard" or "That name stung Ned's soul". Heck, at the very least he would have had Ned do more than just "said" - he'd have written... "spat Ned" or "snapped Ned" or something that would indicate an emotional response.

In short, Ned telling Cersei to leave Westeros was not a bitter response to being reminded of Ashara, a woman he never gives any thought or consideration to throughout his many chapters, but a premeditated act of kindness. Case in point:

"Peace," Varys replied without hesitation. "If there was one soul in King's Landing who was truly desperate to keep Robert Baratheon alive, it was me." He sighed. "For fifteen years I protected him from his enemies, but I could not protect him from his friends. What strange fit of madness led you to tell the queen that you had learned the truth of Joffrey's birth?"
"The madness of mercy," Ned admitted.

He "admitted" he did what he did because of mercy. He essentially explains why directly to Cersei. "For a start," said Ned, "I do not kill children..." Unlike Robert, who smiled at the sight of dead little Rhaenys and (r)Aegon/Pisswater Prince (whichever you believe is true), some that disgusted him at the time and led to him falling out with Robert for a time.

Ned would take no more pleasure in seeing Joffrey, Myrcella or Tommen killed than he would Daenerys's death, so he attempts to spare them.

45 minutes ago, Ygrain said:

I am Arthur, and so is my wife!

Ninjaed to that!  

Jon is Ned's son by Wylla and Ned's relationship with Ashara was purely platonic. It must be true because a kid born two years later was definitely told the truth of it.

That's what I think very likely, too. Especially if he did have an unreciprocated crush on her.

If Brandon was the one who "done did it" (as I like to put it),  dishonoured Ashara at Harrenhal and got her pregnant with her stillborn daughter, he may feel guilty for the hurt he may see as his family brought to her -- even though the Daynes clearly don't hold anything at all against Ned himself.

Quote

Or perhaps Ned was being paranoid about his secret and worried - not unreasonably - that someone like Varys might put two and two together?

That is worth consideration, too.

[Alexis-something-Rose]

As far as Edric Dayne goes, here's what I've got. Edric went to King's Landing with Beric for the tourney of the Hand. Ned is there when Beric arrives. I would think that as his squire, Edric would have been riding with Beric. Yet Ned mentions nothing of a boy wearing a purple cloak. 

The Daynes are not in Ned's thoughts. The Arthur mentions come from his fever dream and his recollection of the tourney. If Ashara had not been mentioned by Catelyn or Cersei then we would know absolutely nothing of her. Lyanna is where Ned's emotional turmoil is, and Jon in his final chapter when Varys tells him he can be with him at the Wall. 

Quote

The thought of Jon filled Ned with a sense of shame, and a sorrow too deep for words. If only he could see the boy again, sit and talk with him . . . (Eddard XV, AGOT 58)

Sending Jon to the Wall may have been a necessary evil for Ned, but it took everything from Jon. To protect him, he had to take away his mother, which is the single thing that Jon has missed in his life and he took away his true identity. And sending him to the Wall stripped everything else from him. 

[The Hidden Dragon]

2 hours ago, The Weirwoods Eyes said:

Actually Ned says' 

Ned tells her to never ask about Jon, and then asks where she heard the name of Ashara; one presumes in relation to her asking if she was Jon's mother, The name is never heard by Cat in Wf again ever since. 

Though the real icing on the cake is that she thinks Ned must have loved Jon's mother fiercely, Certainly Ned didn't love Ashara fiercely as he never thinks of her once in his own POV. 

I suspect the explanation for him wanting his servants to shut up about Ashara is to do with Brandon, who lets not forget  was betrothed to Catelyn for many years during which he seems to have philandered his way through a few maids including Ashara. Who he very likely impregnated. Now given that Brandon is dead and Ned seems to have wanted to make a good marriage with Cat I doubt he wants her uncovering the truth about his dog of a brother. So I suggest he simply wanted to save her any heart ache at having been cheated on. As such. 

Did you read my earlier post in this thread breaking down each mention of Ashara Dayne in the text? 

About the icing on the cake...that refers to the possibility of Lyanna being Jon's mother, which I have not commented on.  

It's certainly plausible that Ned shuts down the whispers because the breadcrumbs trail back to Jon's birth and the mystery of his mother.  Just to confirm, I do not subscribe to N+A=J, but that does mean I subscribe to R+L=J, although it is certainly the leading possibility.  

About Brandon, I guess your thinking must include that he was the one to dishonour Ashara, otherwise, I don't see the connection between brandon, ashara and catelyn.

No, sorry, I didn't see your earlier post.  Sounds interesting though.

Dreaming of twow...

[Bloodraven's Spider]

2 hours ago, Faera said:

How? Ned wasn't born at the time. Plus, he is reciting second-hand information he got off his aunt Allyria who herself was probably a very young child at the time of the Tourney of Harrenhal occurred, if she was even born. That's no better than Catelyn or Cersei reciting court gossip.

Besides, as I said, by your own logic, we must conclude that Wylla is Jon's mother.

With all due respect, that's not what happened. I defer to @The Weirwoods Eyes, who says pretty much what I would have said:

Had GRRM meant that to be such a knee-jerk reaction, he would written some sort of inner response. "That name hit hard" or "That name stung Ned's soul". Heck, at the very least he would have had Ned do more than just "said" - he'd have written... "spat Ned" or "snapped Ned" or something that would indicate an emotional response.

In short, Ned telling Cersei to leave Westeros was not a bitter response to being reminded of Ashara, a woman he never gives any thought or consideration to throughout his many chapters, but a premeditated act of kindness. Case in point:

"Peace," Varys replied without hesitation. "If there was one soul in King's Landing who was truly desperate to keep Robert Baratheon alive, it was me." He sighed. "For fifteen years I protected him from his enemies, but I could not protect him from his friends. What strange fit of madness led you to tell the queen that you had learned the truth of Joffrey's birth?"
"The madness of mercy," Ned admitted.

He "admitted" he did what he did because of mercy. He essentially explains why directly to Cersei. "For a start," said Ned, "I do not kill children..." Unlike Robert, who smiled at the sight of dead little Rhaenys and (r)Aegon/Pisswater Prince (whichever you believe is true), some that disgusted him at the time and led to him falling out with Robert for a time.

Ned would take no more pleasure in seeing Joffrey, Myrcella or Tommen killed than he would Daenerys's death, so he attempts to spare them.

If Brandon was the one who "done did it" (as I like to put it),  dishonoured Ashara at Harrenhal and got her pregnant with her stillborn daughter, he may feel guilty for the hurt he may see as his family brought to her -- even though the Daynes clearly don't hold anything at all against Ned himself.

That is worth consideration, too.

Just because I said it holds weight doesn’t mean letter and word is true. In this case it’s Wylla. Jons mother isn’t The Wylla but Ashara. Why even tell this story to him unless their was some shred of truth to it? 

[kissdbyfire]

4 hours ago, Faera said:

Don't forget Daenerys! Quadruplets.

Bloody hell, I did forget Dany. To be fair, though, I've hear it proposed that they're siblings rather than aunt/nephew but not that they're twins. And how come no one has come up w/ a thread yet where the Fred's Twins are linked somehow to Jon and all his twins?

4 hours ago, Faera said:

EDIT: @kissdbyfire I am telling the truth, BTW. Here it it:

 

Hmmm. I will check it out, but only if you promise me it's not from the OotGH!

 

 

4 hours ago, Faera said:

Something happened w/ the quoter here, but I don't even know what you're talking about w/ "J+V=OTP!

 

4 hours ago, Faera said:

Oh, and Mance is Arthur Dayne, too.

Is he? I thought he was Benjen? Or is Benjen Daario? Or Euron is Daario? Or is Daario, in truth, Mance? It's so damn hard to keep track...

[Ygrain]

27 minutes ago, Bloodraven's Spider said:

 Why even tell this story to him unless their was some shred of truth to it? 

Because Wylla. We hear her name back in AGOT, when Robert forces the name out of Ned, but we have no idea who she might have been. And then we learn that she is a servant at Starfall and indeed claims to be Jon's mother - which she cannot be, because the secrecy makes zero sense. Yet, since Wylla corroborates Ned's story, she is apparently somehow involved in the secret, and so are the Daynes, to an extent. - Not the young Ned but the older generation, who must have had some idea about Arthur guarding Rhaegar and the missing Stark girl, and might very well have connected the dots when Ned brought them Dawn. Because the question is: why did Ned take the pains to return Dawn in person ASAP instead of having it delivered later, after taking the same route back? IMHO, returning Dawn was only a pretext for going to Starfall, either to pick up Jon who had been sent there prior, with Wylla poising as his mother, or to find means of transport that would allow him to send Jon North while he himself could return to KL without any baby along. 

[Faera]

53 minutes ago, Bloodraven's Spider said:

Just because I said it holds weight doesn’t mean letter and word is true. In this case it’s Wylla. Jons mother isn’t The Wylla but Ashara. Why even tell this story to him unless their was some shred of truth to it?

So, only the bits you like get to be "the shred of truth"? I see...

As for why would Allyria tell Edric, we don't know how reliable she is as a source, whether she knows it first hand or she herself got it from someone else or how close to the truth the version they heard was. Again, given that there is nothing in Ned's own POV to suggest any of this happened, I am inclined to discredit Edric and Allyria's source as faulty or misinformed. Like a game of telephone, the more a story gets retold the further from the truth it tends to get.

EDIT: If you meant "Why would GRRM include it?" - because it brings up the name Wylla again. i.e. the woman Ned told Robert was Jon's mother. Thus it provides evidence that "Wylla" isn't some name Ned plucked out of thin air but attached to a real woman who had real involvement in Jon's birth.

As @Widow's Watch pointed out, Ned doesn't really think of any of the Daynes whatsoever, which is strange if you are trying to make the case they make up 1/2 of Jon. Only Arthur Dayne really comes up, and that itself is in relation to Lyanna's death. 

49 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

Hmmm. I will check it out, but only if you promise me it's not from the OotGH!

*gulp* Um, in that case... have a drink. 

49 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

Something happened w/ the quoter here, but I don't even know what you're talking about w/ "J+V=OTP!

Sorry, that was me trying to be hip with the shippers or whatevs.  I meant the whole "Val is Jon's true queen" thing. 

49 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

Is he? I thought he was Benjen? Or is Benjen Daario? Or Euron is Daario? Or is Daario, in truth, Mance? It's so damn hard to keep track...

Everybody is secretly someone else. Much like with Jon's many supposed "Three Heads of the Dragon" sisters - Meera, Val and Dany, the list of potential identities for any one characters are innumerous. 

[Megorova]

8 hours ago, The Weirwoods Eyes said:

I suspect the explanation for him wanting his servants to shut up about Ashara

If Ashara is alive, and she is Howland's wife Jyana, and the three of them agreed, that Ashara Dayne is "dead", then wouldn't it explain Ned's wish, to stop people from talking about her, repeating to others what they heard about her (including about her violet eyes)? It also explains, why Ned never spoke about Howland, never invited him to Winterfell, etc. - because Howland was keeping Ashara's secret buried. If people kept talking about Ashara, then eventually someone could have realised, that violet-eyed Jyana Reed is not whom she pretends to be.

8 hours ago, Bloodraven's Spider said:

They hold weight because it brings his relationship with Ashara to life

GRRM said about Edric's words

http://www.westeros.org/Citadel/SSM/Entry/1188

"Edric is stretching the term a little... "milk brothers" more usually refers to two infants of different parents who were nursed simultaneously by the same woman, but Jon had long been parted from Wylla's breasts by the time Ned came along."

So this means, that even though it is true, that Edric and Jon are indeed milk brothers, it doesn't mean, that Jon is Wylla's child. He's just one of babies, that she was breastfeeding, same as Edric.

4 hours ago, Bloodraven's Spider said:

Why even tell this story to him unless their was some shred of truth to it? 

That shred of truth, is that Jon and Edric are milk brothers. Though stupid Edric assumed, that Jon is Wylla's child.

4 hours ago, kissdbyfire said:

Quote

Oh, and Mance is Arthur Dayne, too.

Is he? I thought he was Benjen? Or is Benjen Daario? Or Euron is Daario? Or is Daario, in truth, Mance? It's so damn hard to keep track...

(Not my theory)

Mance is Rhaegar. Septa Lemore is Lyanna Stark. Young Griff and Jon are both children of Rhaegar and Lyanna, twins. One of them she took with her to Essos, and the other one gave to Ned. Dany is daughter of Ned and Ashara. Osmund Kettleblack is Oswell Whent. While Osmund's father Oswell Kettleblack is Gerold Hightower. Second son, Osfryd, is Arthur Dayne. And third son, Osney is also someone who survived after events at the Tower of Joy.

Oh, and - Bronn is Benjen.

[The Weirwoods Eyes]

On 7/1/2018 at 6:23 PM, The Weirwoods Eyes said:

I recently had an epiphany regarding Ashara Dayne. She isn't important! 

Ashara's only purpose in the story is to provide a red herring for Jon's mother. She is only actually mentioned 6 times in the whole story, and each occasion is there to facilitate a smoke screen for R+L=J. And then finally to allow the reader to see through that smoke screen.  We've even had the beginning, the middle, and the end of her story already. 

 

mention #1:  AGOT Catelyn II

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They whispered of Ser Arthur Dayne, the Sword of the Morning, deadliest of the seven knights of Aerys's Kingsguard, and of how their young lord had slain him in single combat. And they told how afterward Ned had carried Ser Arthur's sword back to the beautiful young sister who awaited him in a castle called Starfall on the shores of the Summer Sea. The Lady Ashara Dayne, tall and fair, with haunting violet eyes. It had taken her a fortnight to marshal her courage, but finally, in bed one night, Catelyn had asked her husband the truth of it, asked him to his face.

This sets Ashara up as a possible mother for Jon Snow. At this point we don't know anything about the timeline in order to understand how difficult it would have been for Ned to meet up with Ashara at the right time for Jon's conception. It's a basic introduction and she's introduced to us specifically in relation to Jon. 

mention #2: AGOT Eddard XII

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Who was the mother, I wonder? Some Dornish peasant you raped while her holdfast burned? A whore? Or was it the grieving sister, the Lady Ashara? She threw herself into the sea, I'm told. Why was that? For the brother you slew, or the child you stole? 

Again this is in relation to her as a possible mother for Jon. Again we're in the first book the author is trying to establish the red herring in order to assist the concealment of Lyanna & Rhaegar as his parents.  And Again we don't yet know that Cersei was not in a position back in the early  280's to know what Ned's relationship was to Ashara and is going on pure rumour. 

mention #3: ACOK Catleyn VI

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They were uncomfortable thoughts, and futile. If Jon had been born of Ashara Dayne of Starfall, as some whispered, the lady was long dead; if not, Catelyn had no clue who or where his mother might be.

This is in relation to the Baratheon children all being Lannister Blonde. GRRM is using this as an opportunity to place Jon's parentage in proximity to other secret heritages. And simultaneously reminding us of Ashara as a possible mother for him, dangling that red herring. But it is also a clue that Jon isn't even Neds son, she talks about non of her sons taking after Ned she is talking on the back of a discussion about other children not being fathered by the man we were told fathered them, and implies that Ned has never been known to be connected to any woman other than this rumour about Ashara so really if it wasn't her then maybe that's because it wasn't Ned?  

mention #4: ASOS Bran II

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The crannogman saw a maid with laughing purple eyes dance with a white sword, a red snake, and the lord of griffins, and lastly with the quiet wolf . . . but only after the wild wolf spoke to her on behalf of a brother too shy to leave his bench.

This one appears at first glance to be more fuel to the rumour and will for most readers continue the idea that Ashara was Jon's mother until ADWD when we learn a little more of Brandon Stark.  What GRRM is really showing us is that Ashara danced with Ned as a favour to Brandon, meaning she wanted him to like her, and that Ned was not interested in Ashara himself enough to ask her to dance. 

mention #5: ASOS Arya VIII

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He looked at her uncomfortably. "My aunt Allyria says Lady Ashara and your father fell in love at Harrenhal—"

Ned Dayne to Arya, this conversation appears on the surface to reinforce her as a candidate but when you think it through it does the opposite. He tells this garbled tale that really seems highly unlikely and which his very name belies. If Ned did the dirty of Ashara with Wyla would they name Ned Dayne for him? Would they fuck. 

mention #5: ASOS Arya VIII

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"Aye, he told me. Lady Ashara Dayne. It's an old tale, that one. I heard it once at Winterfell, when I was no older than you are now." He took hold of her bridle firmly and turned her horse around. "I doubt there's any truth to it. But if there is, what of it? When Ned met this Dornish lady, his brother Brandon was still alive, and it was him betrothed to Lady Catelyn, so there's no stain on your father's honor. 

So here the author starts casting doubts upon the idea of Ashara as the mother here Harwyn tells us taht the time line is all wrong for Jon to be their child. 

mention #6: ADWD The Kingmaker

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But Ashara's daughter had been stillborn, and his fair lady had thrown herself from a tower soon after, mad with grief for the child she had lost, and perhaps for the man who had dishonored her at Harrenhal as well. She died never knowing that Ser Barristan had loved her. How could she? He was a knight of the Kingsguard, sworn to celibacy. No good could have come from telling her his feelings. No good came from silence either. If I had unhorsed Rhaegar and crowned Ashara queen of love and beauty, might she have looked to me instead of Stark?

Here in ADWD Barristan wraps it up for us. Ashara did do the deed with a Stark, but that Stark could not have been Ned when we consider Ned's relationship with Barristan the men got along well, they respected one another, laughed together even. That is not how Barristan would be with the man who had in his words dishonoured the woman he still all these years later loves. 

and finally not a mention of Ashara herself but one which ties together all the information we have so far and tells us who really had sex with Ashara Dayne. 

ADWD The Turncloak

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Someone has been down here stealing swords. Brandon's is gone as well."

"He would hate that." She pulled off her glove and touched his knee, pale flesh against dark stone. "Brandon loved his sword. He loved to hone it. 'I want it sharp enough to shave the hair from a woman's cunt,' he used to say. And how he loved to use it. 'A bloody sword is a beautiful thing,' he told me once."

snip

Brandon was never shy about taking what he wanted. I am old now, a dried-up thing, too long a widow, but I still remember the look of my maiden's blood on his cock the night he claimed me. I think Brandon liked the sight as well. A bloody sword is a beautiful thing, yes. It hurt, but it was a sweet pain.

Here we learn that Brandon Stark took what he wanted from Maidens, even High born ones GRRM uses double entendre to inform us that Brandon liked seeing maidens blood on his cock and also that he would lie to get women into bed. Barbrey didn't know Brandon was betrothed when she gave him her maidenhead. But Brandon knew because Cat tells us they'd been betrothed when she was 12. 

AGOT Catelyn II

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 "… crown prince, and heir to the Iron Throne. And I was only twelve when my father promised me to your brother Brandon."

 Which means he was betrothed to her at 14 we don't know how old he was when he took Barbreys maidenhead but younger than 14? well perhaps I suppose it is possible, but it is unlikely.  

 

All of this stands to show us that Ashara's story has been told it is over. We learnt that she had a baby but that the baby was conceived well before Jon would have been. That logistically them meeting up during the window surrounding his marriage to Cat; when Jon was conceived,  would have been extraordinarily difficult. That the rumours likely are a result of her having had sex with a Stark just not Ned, and that the man she did do it with is likely Brandon.  Everything anyone tells us about Brandon Stark implies he was exactly the kind of bloke who'd do that. He's all fire, a short tempered show off who doesn't consider others before acting.  Where as Barristan a person who unlike Cat, Cersei, Ned Dayne, or Harwyn was actually there and paying close attention to her likens himself to Mud, lamenting that women never chose mud over fire. Ned is pure mud.  And whilst you can argue Barristan is wrong that some like Mud, that really doesn't negate the point that to Barristan Ashara chose Fire over mud and Ned ain't fire. 

ETA: The realisation that it was Brandon Stark who Ashara slept with is also a plausible explanation for Ned Dayne's messed up story.

The way he refers to Ned as Lord Stark when he was sleeping with his aunt supposedly implies that Ned has been told that Ashara's lover was lord Stark, but at the time Ned was not destined to become the lord, he had an older brother. It would be easy for a child born many years after Brandons death though to not even know he existed especially when you consider the person telling him the story is Allyria who it seems is likely a child herself, given the delay of many years in her marriage to Beric. Ned too says they fell in love at Harrenhall, which coincides with Barristans story. 

  That truth clashing with the deliberate rumour started to protect Jon's identity that Wyla was his mother a rumour with some grains of truth, as it seems likely she was indeed his wet nurse, and so had nursed Jon. Explains Ned Dayne's odd story. 

Edited July 1 by The Weirwoods Eyes

@The Hidden Dragon This is my breakdown of Ashara's role in the story. 

For me once I realised that she is nothing but a Red Herring I gave up on her having any secret role. I'd given up on her being Jon's mother about a third of the way into my first read on ACOK. Cos I worked R+L=J out on my own having never set fingers on a keyboard in relation to ASOIAF. 

There is far far far too much to tell us that Jon is Lyanna's son by Rhaegar for me to contemplate any of the other options put forth and I've been around the fandom far too long to doubt it at this stage. Whenever anyone comes up with an alternative it always fails to answer certain fundamental questions. Such as why the big secret? What happened to Lyanna's actual baby and why does Ned never mention it or think about it; If the promise isn't referencing Jon? As well as a few others. 

[Bloodraven's Spider]

@Ygrain @Faera @Megorova

 

Jon is Ned’s... What’s next? Soon your going to tell me that Stannis is the prince that was promised and Thoros isn’t a drunk.

[kissdbyfire]

18 minutes ago, Bloodraven's Spider said:

@Ygrain @Faera @Megorova

 

Jon is Ned’s... What’s next? Soon your going to tell me that Stannis is the prince that was promised and Thoros isn’t a drunk.

Only... he isn't. And after all that's been said here, all the textual support provided, for you to just state that "Jon is Ned's" w/o a shred of evidence supporting your claim nor even an attempt at arguing your case... well, what can I say? Comes across as being contrarian just for the sake of being contrarian. 

[Megorova]

39 minutes ago, Bloodraven's Spider said:

@Ygrain @Faera @Megorova

 

Jon is Ned’s... What’s next? Soon your going to tell me that Stannis is the prince that was promised and Thoros isn’t a drunk.

Next is this - author of that ridiculous theory (from my previous post. I repeat - It's NOT my theory. Some of my theories are "heavily tinfoiled" , but not to this extend) claimed that Starks are not Starks, aside from Robb, because, aside from Brandon, Cat is unable to distinguish one northerner from the other . So after she left Riverrun, and came to live at Winterfell, she had sex with other men, without realising, that they were not her husband Ned. And that's the reason why she didn't realised at the Eyrie, that Bronn is Benjen Stark, because she didn't recognized him. Ned's children are only Robb (from Cat) and Dany (from Ashara), while Sansa, Arya, Bran and Rickon are children of some other fathers. Vayon Poole, father of Jeyne Poole, is Arya's father. Rodrik Cassel is Sansa's father. And Mance Rayder is Bran's father. But because Mance is actually Rhaegar Targaryen , then Bran is half-Targaryen, which is the reason, why he will become Bloodraven's replacement at the Weirwood.

I have read this theory either on Quora or Reddit, though somewhere here, at ASOIAF-forum, there's also a similar theory - 'Stark children are not so Stark', or something like that. People are getting desperate without next book. Me too

~~~

Back to OP - if Jon is Ashara's son, then shouldn't he be black-haired, like she was?

Supposedly there's a rule in ASOIAF, that firstborn children look like their mothers, and the rest like their fathers. Dark-haired Baelor Targaryen, son of Mariah Martell; Rhaenys Targaryen, daughter of Elia Martell; Duncan Targaryen, son of Betha Blackwood; Daeron Targaryen, son of Dyanna Dayne; Rhaego, Dany's son, that had her silver-gold hair, etc.

But Jon's hair is brown, like Lyanna's.

[Faera]

3 hours ago, Bloodraven's Spider said:

@Ygrain @Faera @Megorova

 

Jon is Ned’s... What’s next? Soon your going to tell me that Stannis is the prince that was promised and Thoros isn’t a drunk.

If you won’t even argue your own case, then I think we’re done here.

1 hour ago, Megorova said:

Next is this - author of that ridiculous theory (from my previous post. I repeat - It's NOT my theory. Some of my theories are "heavily tinfoiled" , but not to this extend) claimed that Starks are not Starks, aside from Robb, because, aside from Brandon, Cat is unable to distinguish one northerner from the other . So after she left Riverrun, and came to live at Winterfell, she had sex with other men, without realising, that they were not her husband Ned. And that's the reason why she didn't realised at the Eyrie, that Bronn is Benjen Stark, because she didn't recognized him. Ned's children are only Robb (from Cat) and Dany (from Ashara), while Sansa, Arya, Bran and Rickon are children of some other fathers. Vayon Poole, father of Jeyne Poole, is Arya's father. Rodrik Cassel is Sansa's father. And Mance Rayder is Bran's father. But because Mance is actually Rhaegar Targaryen , then Bran is half-Targaryen, which is the reason, why he will become Bloodraven's replacement at the Weirwood.

I have read this theory either on Quora or Reddit, though somewhere here, at ASOIAF-forum, there's also a similar theory - 'Stark children are not so Stark', or something like that. People are getting desperate without next book. Me too

~~~

Back to OP - if Jon is Ashara's son, then shouldn't he be black-haired, like she was?

Supposedly there's a rule in ASOIAF, that firstborn children look like their mothers, and the rest like their fathers. Dark-haired Baelor Targaryen, son of Mariah Martell; Rhaenys Targaryen, daughter of Elia Martell; Duncan Targaryen, son of Betha Blackwood; Daeron Targaryen, son of Dyanna Dayne; Rhaego, Dany's son, that had her silver-gold hair, etc.

But Jon's hair is brown, like Lyanna's.

Except Baratheon, whose seed is the strongest of them all!

Otherwise It’s almost like Fire Emblem: Awakening aha! But yes, whether there is a correlation or not that first-borns tend get their mother’s hair colour even by our world’s standards dark-brown hair trumps pale blond. A lot of the reoccurrences of pale hair colours turning up in later children are from mothers with either Targaryen or that First Man-Dayne/Hightower etc where we know members of that family do indeed have a history of pale hair and thus a recessive gene. With Lyanna being Stark on both sides, she is less likely to be carrying a recessive gene.

But I don’t want to get into the generics too much because it’s got a lot of magic attached to it as well and we can’t even begin to calculate that!

[the trees have eyes]

22 hours ago, EloImFizzy said:

But saying that if I where Ned Stark I also wouldn't send either my own son, or the last connection I have to my sister off to freeze his balls off at the wall. Sure you could say that Jon wanted to go, but he also wasn't told about what the Nights Watch had become, and going by his reaction when he arrived at the wall, there is no way in hell he would have chosen that route had Ned told him the truth. 

But then again I suppose you could argue that point by saying someone with Ned's personality might just be unable to see what the Nights Watch has become himself. 

The NW is still seen as an honourable calling for Northern nobility.  As the presumed bastard son of Ned Stark Jon could be expected to become an officer and hold high office.  It was good enough for Benjen and Jeor Mormont and Denys Mallister so it should be good enough for Jon Snow.  Ned would imagine him serving the likes of The Old Bear (as he does) and in time sitting at table with the other officers.  If you want to argue that the NW has suffered some sort of crisis in the last 15 years then remember that Waymar Royce, a Valeman rather than a Northman and the third son of a prestigious House joins voluntarily about the same time Jon does.  Ned doesn't expect him to spend a lifetime with the likes of Chett but with Maester Aemon [Targaryen], Jeor Mormont, Denys Mallister or the likes of Waymar Royce and Samell Tarly.  It's a hard life but an honourable one in his eyes.

3 hours ago, Bloodraven's Spider said:

@Ygrain @Faera @Megorova

Jon is Ned’s... What’s next? Soon your going to tell me that Stannis is the prince that was promised and Thoros isn’t a drunk.

This is the second time (at least) you have simply stated Jon is Ned's son as if it is a fact.  Given the sarcasm of your next two comments I'm not sure if you genuinely believe it (but are unwilling to argue it) or are simply fooling around.  If the former it would be interesting to hear why you believe this so strongly though I suspect your argument won't be as convincing to others as you find it to be.