Order of the Green Hand says Jon is Ned’s trueborn son with Ashara? I’m not sure...

[The Weirwoods Eyes]

On 7/10/2018 at 10:01 PM, Bloodraven's Spider said:

Just because I said it holds weight doesn’t mean letter and word is true. In this case it’s Wylla. Jons mother isn’t The Wylla but Ashara. Why even tell this story to him unless their was some shred of truth to it? 

How did Ned and Ashara meet up during the roughly four week window around the battle of the bells and his wedding to Cat that would be needed to conceive Jon? Baring in mind Ned was either moving around with his army or in Riverrun during that time and they don't have mobile phones?

Why does Ned never once think of Ashara even when he is lamenting his inability to tell Jon the truth? 

Why keep it a secret at all if he is Ashara's son?

What happened to Lyanna's baby and why has Ned never thought of them; if that baby isn't Jon?

What was his promise to Lyanna?

 

[Faera]

1 hour ago, The Weirwoods Eyes said:

How did Ned and Ashara meet up during the roughly four week window around the battle of the bells and his wedding to Cat that would be needed to conceive Jon? Baring in mind Ned was either moving around with his army or in Riverrun during that time and they don't have mobile phones?

Let’s not also forget that Ned spent the first part of the war trying to get home to call his banners. He was in the Vale and had to barter passage home. That’s where the story of the Fisherman’s Daughter comes from. Then he gathered his men, marched South, Battle of the Bells, marriage to Cat etc etc...

Either way, he was pretty tied up for most of the war and with little opportunity to hook up with anyone let alone Ashara. I know she wasn’t “nailed to the floor” at Starfall and all but given we know Ned’s movements during the war it would take a lot of jumping sharks to put Ashara in the same place.

[Valyrian Lance]

4 hours ago, The Weirwoods Eyes said:

How did Ned and Ashara meet up during the roughly four week window around the battle of the bells and his wedding to Cat that would be needed to conceive Jon? Baring in mind Ned was either moving around with his army or in Riverrun during that time and they don't have mobile phones?

Why does Ned never once think of Ashara even when he is lamenting his inability to tell Jon the truth? 

Why keep it a secret at all if he is Ashara's son?

What happened to Lyanna's baby and why has Ned never thought of them; if that baby isn't Jon?

What was his promise to Lyanna?

 

The argument from the order of the green hand goes like this:

They met and fell in love at tourney of Harrenhall. When they left, they went to their respective areas - Ned the Vale and Ashara to Dragonstone as a lady of Elia Martell's court. From there, they are close enough to see each other if they want. She is with him in the Vale when he needs to smuggle himself North. She is with him and is mistaken for the fisherman's daughter. They get to White Harbor and get married; he gets to Winterfell, and she catches a ship to Dorne. (This is where part of the secrecy comes from as he then marries Catelyn after negotiating with Hoster Tully for the Riverlands support).

They fight the war and Ned makes his way to where Lyanna is and finds a baby Targ. He then goes to Starfall and switches Lyanna's baby with his own trueborn son and has Ashara smuggle baby Targ to the free cities (Ashara takes the persona of Septa Lemore). The other part of the secrecy is to protect this baby Targ (Aegon) from Robert. His promise to Lyanna is the same, to not allow Robert to kill her son.

He may not think of Ashara because that brings him even more shame due to his marriage to her before Catelyn. The Order then argues that this makes all of Ned's children that we believe to be his trueborn children, bastards, and makes Jon the only trueborn Stark.

It is all a bit of a stretch but kind of interesting.

[the trees have eyes]

25 minutes ago, Valyrian Lance said:

It is all a bit of a stretch but kind of interesting.

The same can be said of any alternative version of the story but, at the risk of repeating a point made by others, any theory has to be grounded in and make logical deductions and arguments based on the text not simply write a different story based on the individual reader's imagination that ignores any inconvenient evidence to the contrary in the text.  So there is zero evidence or reason to suspect that Ned married Ashara and had a child with her: quite the opposite in fact as we know Ned's character and have his pov for most of AGOT (and it's Lyanna he thinks of and his promise to her, his marriage and love for Catelyn and his children, the key showdown at the ToJ, but never once does he think of Ashara); or that she traveled to Dragonstone or incognito to wherever the OotGH's imagining requires her to be to construct their theory.

They need to fit the theory to the text not the other way round.

[Valyrian Lance]

14 minutes ago, the trees have eyes said:

The same can be said of any alternative version of the story but, at the risk of repeating a point made by others, any theory has to be grounded in and make logical deductions and arguments based on the text not simply write a different story based on the individual reader's imagination that ignores any inconvenient evidence to the contrary in the text.  So there is zero evidence or reason to suspect that Ned married Ashara and had a child with her: quite the opposite in fact as we know Ned's character and have his pov for most of AGOT (and it's Lyanna he thinks of and his promise to her, his marriage and love for Catelyn and his children, the key showdown at the ToJ, but never once does he think of Ashara); or that she traveled to Dragonstone or incognito to wherever the OotGH's imagining requires her to be to construct their theory.

They need to fit the theory to the text not the other way round.

I really hate to have to defend a theory that I do not believe in, but some leaps are made all the time in theory making especially in this series. We do not have to be told that Ned went to the privy one day, because we know that is what he would have done probably multiple times every day. Same can be said for Ashara going to Dragonstone after the tourney. She was a lady-in-waiting to Elia Martell, she would have gone to Dragonstone with the Princess. There is some evidence that Ashara could be Jon's mother, the rumors in Winterfell, Ned Dayne, Knight of the Laughing Tree, Barristan Selmy. They make many leaps in their "analysis" like assuming they got married and such, but there is some evidence that the child is Ashara's.

Ned's character is one thing, but there could be a question as to whether his character or at least part of his character is due to this whole Lyanna/Jon situation and not simply the way it always was. Of course, much of R+L=J comes from a dream of Ned's, a fever dream, and one under the influence of Milk of the Poppy.

The leaps they jump to in almost all of their theories are pretty ridiculous and makes it seem like GRRM has written a completely different story than we are led to believe, where everyone is someone else and everyone has mythological motives. My biggest bugaboo with OotGH is more or less exactly what you said in your last sentence. They make a leap in their analysis, then use that "proof" to provide evidence for more leaps, which means by the end of it all, all the evidence for the final theory is more or less other theories.

All in all there are definite clues to point out that Ashara is Jon's mother, which of course makes her the perfect Red Herring.

[kissdbyfire]

30 minutes ago, Valyrian Lance said:

We do not have to be told that Ned went to the privy one day, because we know that is what he would have done probably multiple times every day. Same can be said for Ashara going to Dragonstone after the tourney

That's not a very good comparison, though. Ned going about his basic physiological needs has fuck all to do w/ something that, had it been written in the books, would be a major clue or a major red herring. 

[Valyrian Lance]

4 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

That's not a very good comparison, though. Ned going about his basic physiological needs has fuck all to do w/ something that, had it been written in the books, would be a major clue or a major red herring. 

I get what you are saying, but despite the rudimentary and more or less terrible nature of my comparison, the point is that many things happen that we are not told. We are not told that Ashara most likely accompanied Elia Martell, wherever she went, most likely Dragonstone, because none of those that mentioned the tourney at Harrenhall had any reason to mention it, end of story. It does not mean that that didn't happen. We as readers can infer that knowledge from the fact that Ashara was a lady in Elia's court according to Barristan.

[kissdbyfire]

14 minutes ago, Valyrian Lance said:

I get what you are saying, but despite the rudimentary and more or less terrible nature of my comparison, the point is that many things happen that we are not told. We are not told that Ashara most likely accompanied Elia Martell, wherever she went, most likely Dragonstone, because none of those that mentioned the tourney at Harrenhall had any reason to mention it, end of story. It does not mean that that didn't happen. We as readers can infer that knowledge from the fact that Ashara was a lady in Elia's court according to Barristan.

Well, regarding readers being able to infer certain things, I'd say yes and no. And if we are talking about something that would be a huge clue, such as Ashara's whereabouts after leaving Harrenhal and onwards, I think we should only infer that there is no pertinent information to be had. I don't think Martin would hide an important fact like this, it's not really his style. 

[the trees have eyes]

51 minutes ago, Valyrian Lance said:

I really hate to have to defend a theory that I do not believe in, but some leaps are made all the time in theory making especially in this series. We do not have to be told that Ned went to the privy one day, because we know that is what he would have done probably multiple times every day. Same can be said for Ashara going to Dragonstone after the tourney. She was a lady-in-waiting to Elia Martell, she would have gone to Dragonstone with the Princess. There is some evidence that Ashara could be Jon's mother, the rumors in Winterfell, Ned Dayne, Knight of the Laughing Tree, Barristan Selmy. They make many leaps in their "analysis" like assuming they got married and such, but there is some evidence that the child is Ashara's.

Ned's character is one thing, but there could be a question as to whether his character or at least part of his character is due to this whole Lyanna/Jon situation and not simply the way it always was. Of course, much of R+L=J comes from a dream of Ned's, a fever dream, and one under the influence of Milk of the Poppy.

The leaps they jump to in almost all of their theories are pretty ridiculous and makes it seem like GRRM has written a completely different story than we are led to believe, where everyone is someone else and everyone has mythological motives. My biggest bugaboo with OotGH is more or less exactly what you said in your last sentence. They make a leap in their analysis, then use that "proof" to provide evidence for more leaps, which means by the end of it all, all the evidence for the final theory is more or less other theories.

All in all there are definite clues to point out that Ashara is Jon's mother, which of course makes her the perfect Red Herring.

Well you don't have to defend a theory you don't believe in .  My points were about the way the OotGH (amongst others) constructed their theory, not about anything you said. 

That said, the comparison doesn't really work though , as eating, sleeping and other basic functions are necessary conditions of life, whereas Ashara and Elia both have a deal of latitude over where they travel so we can't say where either of them went unless the text tells us.  If someone wants to say Elia returned to Dragonstone and Ashara went with her, that Ashara then traveled in disguise to the Vale and married Ned then they have to back it up somehow.  All we do know is that Elia and her children were in the Red Keep during the Robellion and we are told Ashara was at Starfall at the end of it.  We don't know if Elia or Ashara returned to Dragonstone, certainly Rhaegar didn't, so it seems far more likely they went to either KL or perhaps Dorne, Elia being princess of Dorne and Ashara, depending on the stage of her pregnancy, likely to be kept away from court or anywhere public.

Ned was never the boy he was, we are given no reason to believe his character changed fundamentally because of the traumatic events of the Robellion and no one at Winterfell tells us anything of the sort.  And the fever dream dealing with the ToJ and "Promise me, Ned" is merely one piece  of the argument.

I get you don't believe in the theory and are just pointing out their reasoning and the leaps they make, I just find them (all Ned's children by Catelyn being illegitimate and him never once having even a shadow of the most obscure hint of a thought dwelling on or regretting this) to be fairly nonsensical and driven by a desire for an OMG / SHOCK!! moment more than anything else.

[Valyrian Lance]

37 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

Well, regarding readers being able to infer certain things, I'd say yes and no. And if we are talking about something that would be a huge clue, such as Ashara's whereabouts after leaving Harrenhal and onwards, I think we should only infer that there is no pertinent information to be had. I don't think Martin would hide an important fact like this, it's not really his style. 

I disagree with your last sentence. GRRM hides many important facts, like Jon's mother's identity about which this entire conversation began.

20 minutes ago, the trees have eyes said:

Well you don't have to defend a theory you don't believe in .  My points were about the way the OotGH (amongst others) constructed their theory, not about anything you said. 

That said, the comparison doesn't really work though , as eating, sleeping and other basic functions are necessary conditions of life, whereas Ashara and Elia both have a deal of latitude over where they travel so we can't say where either of them went unless the text tells us.  If someone wants to say Elia returned to Dragonstone and Ashara went with her, that Ashara then traveled in disguise to the Vale and married Ned then they have to back it up somehow.  All we do know is that Elia and her children were in the Red Keep during the Robellion and we are told Ashara was at Starfall at the end of it.  We don't know if Elia or Ashara returned to Dragonstone, certainly Rhaegar didn't, so it seems far more likely they went to either KL or perhaps Dorne, Elia being princess of Dorne and Ashara, depending on the stage of her pregnancy, likely to be kept away from court or anywhere public.

Ned was never the boy he was, we are given no reason to believe his character changed fundamentally because of the traumatic events of the Robellion and no one at Winterfell tells us anything of the sort.  And the fever dream dealing with the ToJ and "Promise me, Ned" is merely one piece  of the argument.

I get you don't believe in the theory and are just pointing out their reasoning and the leaps they make, I just find them (all Ned's children by Catelyn being illegitimate and him never once having even a shadow of the most obscure hint of a thought dwelling on or regretting this) to be fairly nonsensical and driven by a desire for an OMG / SHOCK!! moment more than anything else.

Their leaps quite are large.

Elia being in Dragonstone is said in the World of Ice and Fire after the Tourney and before Rhaegar steals away Lyanna:

Quote

Nor could he be found in Dragonstone with Princess Elia and their young son, Aegon. With the coming of the new year, the crown prince had taken to the road with half a dozen of his closest friends and confidants, on a journey that would ultimately lead him back to the riverlands. Not ten leagues from Harrenhal, Rhaegar fell upon Lyanna Stark of Winterfell, and carried her off.

 

[kissdbyfire]

1 hour ago, Valyrian Lance said:

I disagree with your last sentence. GRRM hides many important facts, like Jon's mother's identity about which this entire conversation began.

The point I was trying to make is that yes, there are several mysteries in the books but I am willing to bet good money we won't see any of them being solved by an asspull. Really not Martin's style at all. The mysteries have clues and hints, such as the clues and hints we get irt Jon's parentage. Whether people decide to ignore the clues and hints and run w/ ideas based on the absence of clues, well, that's on them not the author. 

[Ygrain]

4 hours ago, Valyrian Lance said:

She is with him in the Vale when he needs to smuggle himself North.

Which has zero text support. Don't you think that if Ned had a lady visiting him in the Vale, Robert would ,mention it at some point? Yet, he he never does, not once, even though it would have been a pretty rare thing for the boy he never was Ned to have a lady visitor.

Not to mention that the pseudomedieval Westeros is not exactly a place where highborn maidens go visiting an unrelated male without causing a huge scandal.

 

4 hours ago, Valyrian Lance said:

She is with him and is mistaken for the fisherman's daughter.

Because that's what happens to strikingly beautiful noble ladies. Ned Stark travelled in nobleman's clothes and was identified as Ned Stark all the way, but Ashara put on commoner's clothes. 

 

4 hours ago, Valyrian Lance said:

They fight the war and Ned makes his way to where Lyanna is and finds a baby Targ. He then goes to Starfall and switches Lyanna's baby with his own trueborn son and has Ashara smuggle baby Targ to the free cities (Ashara takes the persona of Septa Lemore). The other part of the secrecy is to protect this baby Targ (Aegon) from Robert. His promise to Lyanna is the same, to not allow Robert to kill her son.

He may not think of Ashara because that brings him even more shame due to his marriage to her before Catelyn. The Order then argues that this makes all of Ned's children that we believe to be his trueborn children, bastards, and makes Jon the only trueborn Stark.

And he never, ever, pays any thought to Ashara or to Lyanna's baby, doesn't feel any guilt about his bigamy and the like. Ever. I guess I could claim that Ned is a Flying Spaghetti Monster believer, we just never hear in his PoVs. 

No, just no. This is not how GRRM operates - if something like that took place, he would place hints at it somewhere. Yet, there is nothing. Ever.

4 hours ago, Valyrian Lance said:

It is all a bit of a stretch but kind of interesting.

It might be interesting if they wrote it as a fanfic. 

3 hours ago, Valyrian Lance said:

There is some evidence that Ashara could be Jon's mother, the rumors in Winterfell, Ned Dayne, Knight of the Laughing Tree, Barristan Selmy. They make many leaps in their "analysis" like assuming they got married and such, but there is some evidence that the child is Ashara's.

Sorry but people who aren't first-hand witnesses claiming something doesn't constitute evidence, not to mention that there are other people - Harwin, and apparently Robert, who never mentions a thing,  plus the rumours at Winterfell that Jon's mother was commonborn - that think otherwise. So we have rumours X and rumours Y, not evidence.

The KotLT story and Barristan's account are ambiguous. The former states that Brandon spoke on Ned's behalf but it doesn't say that Ned had asked him to. The latter mentions a Stark in connection with Ashara but doesn't say which one. Plus, Barristan always refers to Ned as Lord Eddard/Stark and has nothing but respect for him, which doesn't really fit with Ned being the guy who ruined Ashara's reputation and life.

3 hours ago, Valyrian Lance said:

Ned's character is one thing, but there could be a question as to whether his character or at least part of his character is due to this whole Lyanna/Jon situation and not simply the way it always was. Of course, much of R+L=J comes from a dream of Ned's, a fever dream, and one under the influence of Milk of the Poppy.

This is a myth that needs to die. The only information contained solely in the dream is the dialogue with the KG and the tower as the place where Lyanna died, the rest of events is corroborated by Ned's thoughts and memories. When he wakes up, he is perfectly lucid and he thinks about what followed after the fight with the KG, and his thoughts are consistent with what was shown in the dream. Lyanna's death being tied to blood, roses and the promises is mentioned right in his very first PoV, and appear again when Ned recalls the events of Harrenhall in the Black Cells, which is consistent with the description of the dream as "old", i.e. recurring dream. The dream cannot be considered an exact recording of what transpired but it definitely shouldn't be handwaved.

3 hours ago, Valyrian Lance said:

All in all there are definite clues to point out that Ashara is Jon's mother, which of course makes her the perfect Red Herring.

The clues are what is actually missing, people speculating about something doesn't make it a clue.

[Valyrian Lance]

3 minutes ago, Ygrain said:

Which has zero text support. Don't you think that if Ned had a lady visiting him in the Vale, Robert would ,mention it at some point? Yet, he he never does, not once, even though it would have been a pretty rare thing for the boy he never was Ned to have a lady visitor.

Not to mention that the pseudomedieval Westeros is not exactly a place where highborn maidens go visiting an unrelated male without causing a huge scandal.

Absolutely. This would be a monumental task to keep their relationship hidden. We saw what happened when a maid was taken by a Lord when Lyanna was taken whether by force or willingly. This would not go unnoticed at the very least.

Because that's what happens to strikingly beautiful noble ladies. Ned Stark travelled in nobleman's clothes and was identified as Ned Stark all the way, but Ashara put on commoner's clothes. 

Well she could have if she wanted to hide her identity, but the "evidence" is conjecture at best.

And he never, ever, pays any thought to Ashara or to Lyanna's baby, doesn't feel any guilt about his bigamy and the like. Ever. I guess I could claim that Ned is a Flying Spaghetti Monster believer, we just never hear in his PoVs. 

No, just no. This is not how GRRM operates - if something like that took place, he would place hints at it somewhere. Yet, there is nothing. Ever.

This is definitely not how GRRM operates. He avoids POV characters that might reveal too much through their thoughts, which is a reason why he wanted to limit Melisandre as a POV. He also never thinks about Jon's mother directly, though he could. Just as he has trained himself to not even to think of Jon as his nephew, it could be said that he has trained himself not to think of this other secret. Either way, it is a logical fallacy as the absence of evidence to one thing does not automatically make its opposite factual.

It might be interesting if they wrote it as a fanfic.

Interest is certainly in the eye of the beholder. You certainly aren't interested in it. Some could find it interesting at how they got there. I am certainly interested in any theory, no matter the level of crackpot, that goes against the common thoughts. Purely for entertainment. I get that there are real Jon Truthers out there, and the need to guard R+L=J from them.

Sorry but people who aren't first-hand witnesses claiming something doesn't constitute evidence, not to mention that there are other people - Harwin, and apparently Robert, who never mentions a thing,  plus the rumours at Winterfell that Jon's mother was commonborn - that think otherwise. So we have rumours X and rumours Y, not evidence.

The KotLT story and Barristan's account are ambiguous. The former states that Brandon spoke on Ned's behalf but it doesn't say that Ned had asked him to. The latter mentions a Stark in connection with Ashara but doesn't say which one. Plus, Barristan always refers to Ned as Lord Eddard/Stark and has nothing but respect for him, which doesn't really fit with Ned being the guy who ruined Ashara's reputation and life.

There are many things that are used as evidence that are not first hand witnesses. Take that Jon was specifically born from Rhaegar and Lyanna as an example. Rumors are certainly rumors and there are no rumors that Jon could be Rhaegar's and Lyanna's. People from different areas with no or very little contact with each other coming to the same conclusion cannot be just written off though. There is a lot of lore in the past that no living man has seen or evidenced that we take as truth, prophecy, history, religion. While I agree that it isn't direct evidence, there is very little to no direct evidence. My meaning of evidence is more so literary evidence by the way of literary device. Having said all that, the question of who Jon Snow's mother is and with very little evidence (for those in the story) would lead to many rumors that seem to fit. Speculation by characters is definitely a slippery slope, and they don't seem to correctly unravel many mysteries on their own.

I agree also that KotLT and Barrristan are a bit ambiguous. They are still meant to point the reader in that direction on the surface. Certainly, just because Eddard danced with Ashara and was shy beforehand does not mean they fell in love and had a child. And I do agree that Barristan did not seem to think Ned ruined the love of his life's life in other areas. Mayhaps it was Benjen.

This is a myth that needs to die. The only information contained solely in the dream is the dialogue with the KG and the tower as the place where Lyanna died, the rest of events is corroborated by Ned's thoughts and memories. When he wakes up, he is perfectly lucid and he thinks about what followed after the fight with the KG, and his thoughts are consistent with what was shown in the dream. Lyanna's death being tied to blood, roses and the promises is mentioned right in his very first PoV, and appear again when Ned recalls the events of Harrenhall in the Black Cells, which is consistent with the description of the dream as "old", i.e. recurring dream. The dream cannot be considered an exact recording of what transpired but it definitely shouldn't be handwaved.

Just a precursor to calls of other evidence as weak or ambiguous or unreliable. This was just meant to say that remember the thing that is all but guaranteed and confirmed is still based off some evidence that cannot be 100% believed and inference, same as the idea that Ashara and Ned begot Jon. There is a reason that it is more or less guaranteed and confirmed though.

The clues are what is actually missing, people speculating about something doesn't make it a clue.

It is actually a good solid red herring.

I often wonder what a poll of who is Jon's mother would look like if the surveyees were all people that read the books one time through and hadn't received any outside help.

See bold above in the quote of your post.. In the post you so eloquently quoted and refuted, I was merely pointing out the OotGH argument. Their theories go way above and beyond anything that is available in the actual text, compounding theories on theories and using other theories as reasoning behind other theories. It is sloppy at best.

[Bloodraven's Spider]

13 hours ago, The Weirwoods Eyes said:

How did Ned and Ashara meet up during the roughly four week window around the battle of the bells and his wedding to Cat that would be needed to conceive Jon? Baring in mind Ned was either moving around with his army or in Riverrun during that time and they don't have mobile phones?

Why does Ned never once think of Ashara even when he is lamenting his inability to tell Jon the truth? 

Why keep it a secret at all if he is Ashara's son?

What happened to Lyanna's baby and why has Ned never thought of them; if that baby isn't Jon?

What was his promise to Lyanna?

 

Ned was with Ashara on his way to riverrun for Brandon’s wedding. When news broke about his death. He went back to Winterfell while with Ashara except he left her in White Harbor. After he got back to Winterfell and called the banners he had some time while he waited for th northern forces to gather themselves and head to Winterfell. During this time he most likely went back to White harbor and banged Ashara. His promise to Lyanna was to keep Aegon safe (he’s legit. His father is Rhaegar his mother is Lyanna.) Jon and Robb’s storyline mirror Neds so much. Ned was forced into a marriage so was Robb we see how both those player out. Jon did a baby swap like Ned (both dayne babies as well) and always does what’s right and best for everyone rather then himself.

[Ygrain]

1 hour ago, Valyrian Lance said:

See bold above in the quote of your post.. In the post you so eloquently quoted and refuted, I was merely pointing out the OotGH argument. Their theories go way above and beyond anything that is available in the actual text, compounding theories on theories and using other theories as reasoning behind other theories. It is sloppy at best.

I am aware that you were merely presenting their theory while stating you don't really believe it yourself. I just wanted to point out some flaws that they merely gloss over or don't adress at all, and given the high horse they are riding, I couldn't be bothered with courtesy.

 

1 hour ago, Valyrian Lance said:

There are many things that are used as evidence that are not first hand witnesses. Take that Jon was specifically born from Rhaegar and Lyanna as an example.

Not sure what you mean here. I was referring to the fact that people like Cersei or even the young Ned Dayne stating/speculating about N+A doesn't constitute for a clue that such a relationship ever existed. Also, it is not so difficult to see where the rumour might have come from - Ashara is seen with a Stark/Starks, has a baby, Ned Stark visits Starfall, Ashara commits suicide, Ned Stark is raising a bastard of an unknown mother. An easy conclusion to jump to, on the surface.

[Megorova]

8 hours ago, Valyrian Lance said:

We are not told that Ashara most likely accompanied Elia Martell, wherever she went, most likely Dragonstone, because none of those that mentioned the tourney at Harrenhall had any reason to mention it, end of story. It does not mean that that didn't happen. We as readers can infer that knowledge from the fact that Ashara was a lady in Elia's court according to Barristan.

Though it's possible, that, after Ashara was dishonored at Harrenhal, she was either entirely dismissed from Targaryen court, or was temporarely suspended, until gossips about her will hush down, so she was sent back home, to Starfall.

This option seems more likely - when Lyanna was kidnapped, when thru 7K was raging war, when Elia (and probably her maids and servants) was kept as hostage in Red Keep, during all that time Ashara was at Starfall, or at least in Dorne, so in span of Robert's Rebellion, she wasn't traveling thru war-zone. 

The other option seems less likely - Ashara was with Elia at Dragonstone, then during Rebellion, she went to The Vale, to see Ned, then, when the Rebellion was still in full force, she managed to safely get to Starfall.

Why second option is less likely - six months after Rhaenys' birth, Rhaegar and his family went to King's Landing, to present her to royal court; they were at KL, when Aegon was conceived; they went to Harrenhal from KL; after Harrenhal they returned to KL, where several months later, Aegon was born; Rhaegar left Elia and newborn Aegon at KL, and went to unknown location; Elia and her children were taken hostage by Aerys, and it wasn't said anywhere, that they were brought from Dragonstone (Edit: They were at Dragonstone, at certain point in Rebellion, though it isn't definite, whether Aegon was born on Dragonstone, or was he brought there later from KL); thus, based on all of that, Elia was staying at KL, from 6 months after Rhaenys' birth, and until their deaths, during the Sack of KL.

If Elia and her family were at KL, then their people also were there, and not at Dragonstone. Paranoid Aerys wouldn't have let Ashara to take a ship, and go to The Vale, or anywhere else. Especially considering the fact, that, when Rhaegar kidnapped Lyanna, he was accompanied by Arthur Dayne. So if Ashara was at KL, then Aerys probably would have tortured her, to find out about Rhaegar's and Arthur's whereabouts. Or even if he wouldn't have done that, it's still unlikely, that he would have let her, or anyone else, to leave KL, while there was still war going on.

Thus the most likely option, is that during Robert's Rebellion, Ashara was in Dorne, even though she was part of Elia's court.    

[Ralphis Baratheon]

Is it me or does this whole theory goes against everything we know Eddard Stark to be as a person? A man who kept his word and was honorable to a fault. How could Ned even stand ten yards within a weirwood tree if had dishonored his gods and wife he married in front of them? Not to mention he never spares a single thought about how horribly he dishonored Ashara?

Not sure if this was addressed in this theory. If the Tullys knew Ned was married to Ashara and she birthed him Jon then why was Cat questioning Ned about Jon's mother? Why in her own POV chapter is she speculating with herself on Ashara at all, if she knew it all already? Also if Ned set aside one wife and trueborn son already how could the Tullys trust that he wouldn't do it again to Catelyn?

 

[Faera]

17 minutes ago, Bloodraven's Spider said:

Ned was with Ashara on his way to riverrun for Brandon’s wedding. When news broke about his death. He went back to Winterfell while with Ashara except he left her in White Harbor.  After he got back to Winterfell and called the banners he had some time while he waited for th northern forces to gather themselves and head to Winterfell. During this time he most likely went back to White harbor and banged Ashara.

What in the books substantiates these claims, or is it pure speculation?

1 hour ago, Bloodraven's Spider said:

His promise to Lyanna was to keep Aegon safe (he’s legit. His father is Rhaegar his mother is Lyanna.)

Ah... I thought I recognised your avatar. Have you managed to find some textual evidence to back this one up since that R+L=A thread? In all honesty, I wish you would refrain from the speculations and simply say what it was in the books made you believe all this. Even if we disagree, we'd at least get an idea of where you were coming from...

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Jon and Robb’s storyline mirror Neds so much. Ned was forced into a marriage so was Robb we see how both those player out. Jon did a baby swap like Ned (both dayne babies as well) and always does what’s right and best for everyone rather then himself.

If GRRM wished for there to be a distinct parallel like the one you are suggesting, he would have had Ned confirm his romance with Ashara within his own POV chapters. It loses the emotional resonance without feeling it through Ned's own POV. In comparison, we see repeatedly how much Lyanna's death and his promise to her still weighs on him. Had Ned gone through all that with Ashara, it would have come up in his memories, his traumas... but it doesn't.

And no, @Ralphis Baratheon, you are not the only one. Robb married Jeyne because he had sex with her and felt honour-bound to marry her. He gave up his politically advantageous marriage to a Frey girl in order to preserve that honour. Tywin as good as states he is his "father's son". So, it completely flies in the face of the Ned/Ashara pairing having been of a sexual nature because the implication is that had Ned been the one to dishonour Ashara, he would have married her and rejected his politically advantageous marriage to Catelyn.

[Ygrain]

5 hours ago, Ralphis Baratheon said:

Is it me or does this whole theory goes against everything we know Eddard Stark to be as a person? A man who kept his word and was honorable to a fault. How could Ned even stand ten yards within a weirwood tree if had dishonored his gods and wife he married in front of them? Not to mention he never spares a single thought about how horribly he dishonored Ashara?

Which is why I call utter bullshit. In the years here, I have read much, much better attempts at an alternative parentage (and delivered without condescension).

5 hours ago, Ralphis Baratheon said:

Not sure if this was addressed in this theory. If the Tullys knew Ned was married to Ashara and she birthed him Jon then why was Cat questioning Ned about Jon's mother? Why in her own POV chapter is she speculating with herself on Ashara at all, if she knew it all already? Also if Ned set aside one wife and trueborn son already how could the Tullys trust that he wouldn't do it again to Catelyn?

Just another of the mammoth-sized holes in this theory. If Ned was no longer available and Hoster insisted on sealing the alliance with marriages, he would simply have opted for Jon Arryn for Cat and Benjen for Lysa instead of something so thoroughly dishonorable for everyone involved, and going not only against Ned's character but against the Tully's, as well - you know, those who go by "family, duty, honor". 

[The Weirwoods Eyes]

9 hours ago, Bloodraven's Spider said:

Ned was with Ashara on his way to riverrun for Brandon’s wedding. When news broke about his death. He went back to Winterfell while with Ashara except he left her in White Harbor. After he got back to Winterfell and called the banners he had some time while he waited for th northern forces to gather themselves and head to Winterfell. During this time he most likely went back to White harbor and banged Ashara. His promise to Lyanna was to keep Aegon safe (he’s legit. His father is Rhaegar his mother is Lyanna.)

What evidence from the text is there that this happened? 

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Jon and Robb’s storyline mirror Neds so much. Ned was forced into a marriage so was Robb we see how both those player out. Jon did a baby swap like Ned (both dayne babies as well) and always does what’s right and best for everyone rather then himself.

Robb chose to marry Jeyne because he viewed it as the right thig to do. No one was forcing him. In fact most people would have expected him to keep his pact with the Freys who's forces he needed. The Westerlings had absolutely NO leverage over Robb he was a King occupying their castle.  

Robb was manipulated by Jeyne's mother who took a gamble that should she push her daughter towards his bed he'd wed her. It paid off but at no point was Robb forced, he was forced to accept a betrothal by Walder Frey who denied him passage through the twins unless he agreed to the marriage, this paid off in that he also gained an alliance which provided troops.  

Just as Ned had to accept Cat as a bride in order to gain Hoster Tully's support. Robb howether broke his betrothal so whilst the two of them faced similar situations each made a different choice. The consequences of which are evidenced by the outcomes. 

Jon does not swap a Dayne baby he swaps a two wildling babies, Gilly & Crasters son.  Swapped with Dalla & Mance's Mance is categorically not a Dayne. Nor is Dalla. Unless you have some in text evidence I've missed.