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Order of the Green Hand says Jon is Ned’s trueborn son with Ashara? I’m not sure...


Angel Eyes

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16 minutes ago, Ralphis Baratheon said:

I noticed when someone disagrees with them in their comment sections the OotGH tells them "they don't understand good writing," "R+L=J is bad writing,"  Granted none of those comments I saw thoroughly dismantled their theory as well as  @Faera , @Ygrain and the others have here. Though when a good point is brought up against their theory in their comments they get upset instead of countering it with insightful dialog. 

But that's basically all they can do, isn't it? After all, there is zero textual support for any of their inane ideas. 

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12 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

But that's basically all they can do, isn't it? After all, there is zero textual support for any of their inane ideas. 

True. I just thought they came off  extremely arrogant with those type of replies.  I guess I figured they'd be better off not responding at all. I dunno.

18 minutes ago, Brianstorm said:

Ned Dayne is probably his son, George is going to leave us with a bunch of Targ and Stark and etc. bastards aka potential Luke Skywalkers for us to think about after his bittersweet ending.

If anything you'd think Brandon Stark might have some bastards out there. Don't really see Ned having any. I mean if all those years in the Vale with Bobby B didn't get Ned interested in sleeping around I doubt he started doing it later in life.

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1 minute ago, Ralphis Baratheon said:

If anything you'd think Brandon Stark might have some bastards out there. Don't really see Ned having any. I mean if all those years in the Vale with Bobby B didn't get Ned interested in sleeping around I doubt he started doing it later in life.

 

Ned would've been just a teen when he was out on the warpath with Robert, no?

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1 hour ago, Brianstorm said:

Ned Dayne is probably his son, George is going to leave us with a bunch of Targ and Stark and etc. bastards aka potential Luke Skywalkers for us to think about after his bittersweet ending.

'His' as in Ned's? 

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49 minutes ago, Brianstorm said:

yeah but they were like 16 or 17 IIRC, perfect age for Ned to sire a few (other than Jon of course)

And what, George can’t have a single teenaged boy in the story that doesn’t think with his willie? You really think an author like George is going to let all of the jock-types to “win”? 

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16 hours ago, Ygrain said:

And is thoroughly refuted by GRRM's confirmation that Ned and Howland were the only two men to leave ToJ (if "they were seven against three, yet only two lived to ride away" requires confirmation).

Was GRRM's confirmation in an SSM?  I looked but couldn't find it.  I've always considered that phrase ripe for author manipulation.  I know the common perspective is that it means 2 of 10 survived, but it easily could mean 2 of 7 survived.

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3 hours ago, Faera said:

 

Actually, GRRM bothers to mention that Joffrey "was twelve, younger than Jon or Robb, but taller than either, to Jon's vast dismay." and then only a handful of chapters later Tyrion actually mistakes Jon for around Joffrey's age of twelve. So, it goes to show no one is keeping tabs on this stuff.

 

This got me thinking, if Tyrion estimates Jon's age as 12 when he is actually 14, does this mean that (f)aegon may be older than the 16 that Tyrion estimates? 

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47 minutes ago, The Fattest Leech said:

And what, George can’t have a single teenaged boy in the story that doesn’t think with his willie? You really think an author like George is going to let all of the jock-types to “win”? 

Ned isn't a jock type, he was the middle child jealous of Brandon.

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1 hour ago, Brianstorm said:

Ned isn't a jock type, he was the middle child jealous of Brandon.

You said... 

3 hours ago, Brianstorm said:

yeah but they were like 16 or 17 IIRC, perfect age for Ned to sire a few (other than Jon of course)

Perfect age for Ned to do what? It seems you are saying to “sire a few” bastards. 

That is what I am referring to. It seems as though you put Ned in some class with all 16-17 year olds and that they can’t help but make “bastards”.  That those boys are all the same, cuz boys and all, I guess? 

But that isn’t how this author works. George even had Robert grumble about it. Robert and Eddard were two individuals; one a typical over achiever, sexually powerful, jock-type, and one an introvert that is honorable to a ( sometimes ridiculous) fault. 

A Game of Thrones - Eddard II

"Would that we could," Ned said, "but we have duties now, my liege … to the realm, to our children, I to my lady wife and you to your queen. We are not the boys we were."
"You were never the boy you were," Robert grumbled. 
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7 hours ago, Angel Eyes said:

So is that the part about Cersei accusing Ned of being a rapist come from in their conversation in AGOT?

Honor,” she spat. “How dare you play the noble lord with me! What do you take me for? You’ve a bastard of your own, I’ve seen him. Who was the mother, I wonder? Some Dornish peasant you raped while her holdfast burned? A whore? Or was it the grieving sister, the Lady Ashara? She threw herself into the sea, I’m told. Why was that? For the brother you slew, or the child you stole? Tell me, my honorable Lord Eddard, how are you any different from Robert, or me, or Jaime?”

My, how she hates the idea that someone might actually have some moral standards. Not only does she accuse him of being a rapist, but also of causing Ashara's suicide. The passage also shows that she is spinning tales - we don't have any details on Ned's journey to Starfall, but I am fairly sure no holdfasts were burning there as the war was over and Ned wouldn't allow his men to plunder, anyway.

3 hours ago, Brianstorm said:

Ned Dayne is probably his son, George is going to leave us with a bunch of Targ and Stark and etc. bastards aka potential Luke Skywalkers for us to think about after his bittersweet ending.

Ashara died in 283. Ned Dayne was born in 287. At that time, The Ned was already up North busy siring little Starks.

3 hours ago, Brianstorm said:

Ned would've been just a teen when he was out on the warpath with Robert, no?

As I was ninjaed to by @The Fattest Leech, he never was the boy he was. He had his standards fully developed back then.

2 hours ago, The Hidden Dragon said:

Was GRRM's confirmation in an SSM?  I looked but couldn't find it.  I've always considered that phrase ripe for author manipulation.  I know the common perspective is that it means 2 of 10 survived, but it easily could mean 2 of 7 survived.

He confirmed it at some relatively recent (no more than a year or two ago) event, so there might be a recording. After the even, the information was all over the forums, with someone even claiming they were the one asking the question with the purpose of confirming Arthur's death.

Anyway, Ned says that out of seven against three, only two lived to ride away and thinks about building eight cairns, so the math fits. People argue that some cairn(s) could be empty but I consider this unnecessary - if GRRM wanted to keep this ambiguous, he simply could have left out the numeral and say "built cairns for the fallen" or something like that.

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10 hours ago, Ralphis Baratheon said:

I noticed when someone disagrees with them in their comment sections the OotGH tells them "they don't understand good writing," "R+L=J is bad writing,"  Granted none of those comments I saw thoroughly dismantled their theory as well as  @Faera , @Ygrain and the others have here. Though when a good point is brought up against their theory in their comments they get upset instead of countering it with insightful dialog. 

Oh, honestly! If they don't want to engage with the criticism then they may as well turn their comment section off. I know sometimes people like to believe something they post will only result in a sea of people just going "OMG you are geniuses!" but they are no less immune to the same critiques all of us here are when we present our ideas. If anything, I think by putting your idea into a glossy video it is the equivalent of mounting it on the wall:dunno:

9 hours ago, Brianstorm said:

Ned Dayne is probably his son, George is going to leave us with a bunch of Targ and Stark and etc. bastards aka potential Luke Skywalkers for us to think about after his bittersweet ending.

Not everyone has to be Brandon Stark or Robert Baratheon. Besides, Edric Dayne can't be Eddard's (I presume that's what you mean) because he was long-since back in the North by that time and we have no indication from Ned or Cat that he ever cheated on her after he returned to the North. Jon was a big deal.

8 hours ago, The Hidden Dragon said:

Was GRRM's confirmation in an SSM?  I looked but couldn't find it.  I've always considered that phrase ripe for author manipulation.  I know the common perspective is that it means 2 of 10 survived, but it easily could mean 2 of 7 survived.

@Ygrain pretty much answered this already but I may as well stick the quotes here. This comes from Eddard X:

"I gave them over to the silent sisters, to be sent north to Winterfell. Jory would want to lie beside his grandfather."
It would have to be his grandfather, for Jory's father was buried far to the south. Martyn Cassel had perished with the rest. Ned had pulled the tower down afterward, and used its bloody stones to build eight cairns upon the ridge. It was said that Rhaegar had named that place the tower of joy, but for Ned it was a bitter memory. They had been seven against three, yet only two had lived to ride away; Eddard Stark himself and the little crannogman, Howland Reed. He did not think it omened well that he should dream that dream again after so many years.

He recalls this face when he is awake, too, so no trying excuse it on a fever dream. Now, some might wish to argue that "only two had lived to ride away" as an indicator that "Oh, well, maybe the others didn't ride but walked!" or whatever but... I think if GRRM wanted this to be a point of debate he wouldn't have gone out of his way to state that "only two had lived", full stop. So, I think it is pretty fair to assume that Howland literally was the only survivor aside from Ned. The focus is on the fact that Howland survived i.e. there is another witness, not the ambiguity that others might have also.

8 hours ago, The Hidden Dragon said:

This got me thinking, if Tyrion estimates Jon's age as 12 when he is actually 14, does this mean that (f)aegon may be older than the 16 that Tyrion estimates? 

Most certainly. Besides, the appendix states, "YOUNG GRIFF, a blue-haired lad of eighteen years."

7 hours ago, The Fattest Leech said:

But that isn’t how this author works. George even had Robert grumble about it. Robert and Eddard were two individuals; one a typical over achiever, sexually powerful, jock-type, and one an introvert that is honorable to a ( sometimes ridiculous) fault. 

A Game of Thrones - Eddard II

"Would that we could," Ned said, "but we have duties now, my liege … to the realm, to our children, I to my lady wife and you to your queen. We are not the boys we were."
"You were never the boy you were," Robert grumbled. 

Ah, yes! I forgot that line.

Pretty much debunks the notion that Ned changed between his youth and adult years- he was always a stick in the mud. Together with Howland reflecting on Ned as the "Quiet" wolf who is too shy to leave his bench and needed his Big Brother to go talk to a girl for him... yeah, I don't think he was fathering bastards left, right and centre any more than he fathered Ashara's bastard at Harrenhal. If she even had one. :dunno:

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Didn't GRRM also confirm Arthur as dead recently when he was discussing best fighters and he said living or dead because dead would be Arthur. I'm paraphrasing but it was at a Con I think? And he went with Brienne. 

Here's the link. 

So yes Arthur Dayne is dead he isn't Mance Rayder or anyone else in disguise. 

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13 hours ago, Faera said:

Obviously, the immediate family and retainers would know his age because he's been at Winterfell since he was a few months older and they watched him grow up

Though it looks like at least Cat is aware, that Jon is older than Robb. That's the main reason of her contempt against Jon - if Ned will ever legitimize him, he, as Ned's oldest son, and not Robb, will become heir of Winterfell.

7 hours ago, Ygrain said:

we don't have any details on Ned's journey to Starfall, but I am fairly sure no holdfasts were burning there as the war was over and Ned wouldn't allow his men to plunder, anyway.

Though Ned did destroyed Tower of Joy. Maybe he burned it, prior taking it apart (stones for graves). I think, that that's exactly what happened, based on Dany's vision - smoking tower, winged stone beast, breathing shadow flame. I think, that in this vision she saw burning of the Tower of Joy, while the winged stone beast is Jon. He's the last Targaryen dragon/Prince, that will be awoken from stone.

1 hour ago, Faera said:

the appendix states, "YOUNG GRIFF, a blue-haired lad of eighteen years."

Real Aegon was born in the very beginning of 282 (or in the end of 281), so in 300, when Tyrion met fAegon, he is supposed to be 18. Though even if fAegon is of exact age, as real Aegon, it still doesn't mean, that he is Elia's Aegon.

I think, that they were even conceived on the same night - Aegon in King's Landing, and fAegon in Kingswood (his parents are Barristan Selmy and septa Lemore, who is actually Jeyne Swann) <- it's a theory, not a fact.

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1 hour ago, Megorova said:

Though it looks like at least Cat is aware, that Jon is older than Robb. That's the main reason of her contempt against Jon - if Ned will ever legitimize him, he, as Ned's oldest son, and not Robb, will become heir of Winterfell

We don't actually know that.

Even if Jon was legitimised he would come after Ned's lawful children. Besides, she never fears Jon himself as much as she's worried that her grandchildren might become rivals to any children Jon might have. If Jon legally married and had children, those kids would not be bastards but legitimate children, well-placed the establish themselves as a house in their own right. We have seen cases like it several times.

1 hour ago, Megorova said:

Real Aegon was born in the very beginning of 282 (or in the end of 281), so in 300, when Tyrion met fAegon, he is supposed to be 18. Though even if fAegon is of exact age, as real Aegon, it still doesn't mean, that he is Elia's Aegon.

 

Sure, but the appendix specifically stated that Young Griff is eighteen, while officially stating that {Aegon} died as a babe in arms. Granted, the appendix only states the assumed truth so we can't take that as proof they are different people though I see no reason to doubt that Young Griff isn't eighteen. If they wanted to keep it ambiguous, they wouldn't have included his age at all.

I don't agree with your Barristan theory or that Septa Lemore is Jeyne Swan but the notion of Sepa Lemore being Young Griff's real mother could be possible. There are numerous ideas of where he might have come from if he isn't the real Aegon.

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1 hour ago, Faera said:

Even if Jon was legitimised he would come after Ned's lawful children.

Are you sure about that? Aren't legitimised bastards, have the same rights as legitimate children?

@Angel Eyes

Best prove, that Jon is Rhaegar's son (ADWD, Jon XI or XII):

"He rose and dressed in darkness, as Mormont’s raven muttered across the room. “Corn,” the bird said, and, “King,” and, “Snow, Jon Snow, Jon Snow.” That was queer. The bird had never said his full name before, as best Jon could recall."

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20 minutes ago, Megorova said:

Are you sure about that? Aren't legitimised bastards, have the same rights as legitimate children?

I'm not sure if it has ever fully been established either way.

Even so, I meant more in terms of how the nobility and bannermen would generally view the situation. There is cultural bias against bastards in Westeros and it seems like a taint that doesn't go just because of a royal decree. Overall, they would likely still see the firstborn, trueborn son as heir over the legitimised bastard and thus ignore any age technicalities, especially since they're about the same age anyway. For Jon to really try and supercede Robb, there'd probably have to be doubt about Robb's own legitimacy.

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Cat thinks that she couldn't tell for certain which was older. This only means they are very very close in age. But when you think about it had Jon been older than Robb then Ned would have been single at the time and could have spared Cat the shame and anger of his supposed infidelity. He would simply have been conceived prior to their marriage. 

No Cat doesn't know he is older, and in fact this statement from her is just more evidence Ned isn't his father. Because they are so close in age he must have been conceived within those two weeks which Ned spent at Riverrun. Assuming normal 40 week gestations for both women. 

As to fAegons age, yes he may be younger or older Tyrion isn't a great judge of age and as always unreliable narrator is a factor here. fAegon is very unlikely to be Elia's son, so his being a bit older or younger is perfectly possible. I think he is Serra & Illyrio's son. And they simply saw an opportunity when Aegon was murdered and groomed the boy to believe he was a secret missing Prince.  

We do know when Aegon was born because of that quote in TWOIAF about Rhaegar setting out at the turn of the year leaving his wife and infant son on Dragonstone. He was born at the very end of 281. The war began several months into 282, Robb and Jon were born at the end of the war at some point in 283. 

 

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