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Order of the Green Hand says Jon is Ned’s trueborn son with Ashara? I’m not sure...


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3 hours ago, Widow's Watch said:

Well this thread has turned into a clusterfuck.

I know! Wasn’t this thread supposed to be about TOotGH’s N+A=J theory? How is it we got onto whether Howland banged Ashara and playing “Hot or Not” with Lyanna?! :D

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There is absolutely no Fucking way Lyanna jousted with a leather shield FFS. 

From the Wiki. 

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Crannogmen are talented hunters and warriors. Despite their short stature[3] and somewhat primitive lifestyle, they have proven a notoriously difficult people to conquer. They wield nets, bronze knives, three-pronged frog spears, and round leather shields.

 

English Heritage website. 

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The joust is a sport of speed, agility and impact that has thrilled spectators for centuries. Riding in armour weighing over 40kg, at speeds of up to 30mph, the jousting knight lowers a

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10-foot lance

and takes aim to strike the target on his opponent’s left shoulder.

Anyone else here ride? I do. No fucking way would anyone in their right mind face down 10 ft lance travelling via a fucking destrier which could be up to 15.2.  and are stocky as fuck. At 30mph. with a leather shield ffs. 

We don't know either if in Westeros they use Targe's for jousting or a Kite Shield. But either way a round leather shield would be note worthy as marking the MK for a Crannogman, an imbecile, and possibly about to die! 

Again HAD GRRM wished to drop a hint that she was using Howlands actual shield he'd have had that detail included in the description of the shield. But instead he just says painted with a laughing Weirwood. So the reader must assume there is nothing else significant about it.    

 

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10 minutes ago, The Weirwoods Eyes said:

Again HAD GRRM wished to drop a hint that she was using Howlands actual shield he'd have had that detail included in the description of the shield. But instead he just says painted with a laughing Weirwood. So the reader must assume there is nothing else significant about it.    

 

This!

That is what I have always thought happened: Benjen sourced the mismatched armour, Howland came up with the Laughing Tree sigil, and Lyanna rode the horse.

They just took a random shield and repainted it.

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40 minutes ago, Ylath's Snout said:

Yeah out of everything you need for a joust isn't a good enough shield one of the cheapest and most easily replaceable pieces of gear?

Along with the jousting lances, I imagine so. With so many people around there must have been tons of unused shields lying around - especially if it was the second day. Tinctures to repaint and repair shields were probably also lying about too. Little Benjen was probably spoiled for choice in what he nicked. Bottom line - a shield is part of the "kit".

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@The Weirwoods Eyes

At tournaments they used 12-feet lances.

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“Attend me, all of you,” Baelor said quietly. “The accusers will be armed with heavy war lances for the first charge. Lances of ash, eight feet long, banded against splitting and tipped with a steel point sharp enough to drive through plate with the weight of a warhorse behind it.”

“We shall use the same,” said Ser Humfrey Beesbury. Behind him, the septon was calling on the Seven to look down and judge this dispute, and grant victory to the men whose cause was just.

“No,” Baelor said. “We will arm ourselves with tourney lances instead.”

Tourney lances are made to break,” objected Raymun.

“They are also made twelve feet long. If our points strike home, theirs cannot touch us. Aim for helm or chest. In a tourney it is a gallant thing to break your lance against a foe’s shield, but here it may well mean death. If we can unhorse them and keep our own saddles, the advantage is ours.”

 

2 hours ago, The Weirwoods Eyes said:

There is absolutely no Fucking way Lyanna jousted with a leather shield FFS. 

A shield, made of leather alone, doesn't make sense at all. How can it protect its owner from swords, arrows, and spears? So probably it's not a "leather shield", it's a shield, made from wooden or metal base, covered by leather.

They did had and used metal:

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She wore lambskin breeches soft with long use, and a sleeveless jerkin armored in bronze scales. Though near Robb’s age, she was slim as a boy, with long brown hair knotted behind her head and only the barest suggestion of breasts. A woven net hung from one slim hip, a long bronze knife from the other; under her arm she carried an old iron greathelm spotted with rust; a frog spear and round leathern shield were strapped to her back.

Used Google to look what a leather shield is, found info from games:

http://oldschoolrunescape.wikia.com/wiki/Leather_shield

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Leather shields are a class of shields that are oriented toward rangers. They can be made by using various types of wooden shields with certain types of leather, while adding metal nails to complete the shield.

http://oldschoolrunescape.wikia.com/wiki/Hard_leather_shield

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A hard leather shield is a leather shield that requires at least level 20 Ranged and 10 Defence to be worn.

The shield is created by using an oak shield on two pieces of hard leather while having 15 bronze nails and a hammer in the inventory.

https://darksouls.wiki.fextralife.com/Leather+Shield

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Round leather-covered shield. A standard, widely-used shield.

https://exvius.gamepedia.com/Leather_Shield

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A shield made by affixing tanned leather to a wooden frame.

https://dragon-quest.org/wiki/Leather_shield

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The leather shield has had different designs over the years, but at its core, it is a simple shield made out of wood and covered with leather.

So leather shield is NOT actually a leather shield. It's a shield COVERED with leather.

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15 hours ago, Megorova said:

Non of that means GRRM's leather shield is like that. But Yes it might well be, though there is still NO evidence that she used Howlands shiled.  Non what so ever.  So it's suitability or not is irrelevant. 

Had she used it the text would hint at that. Writing is about conveying information and allow your reader to piece together that information to form a story. You don't write successful books by leaving out masses of information that later becomes crucial to what happened.  The way it is done is that one can look back and see that it was there all along. That is why so many readers of this series find re-reads so rewarding! 

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19 hours ago, Megorova said:

So leather shield is NOT actually a leather shield. It's a shield COVERED with leather.

Well, obviously the shield isn't made solely of leather. :blink:

However, if Benjen was going around stealing what armour he could have also nicked a bouche shield, which would be much better. As I've said before, if the KotLT had used Howland's shield I'm fairly certain that Meera would have said so in her story as it lends more to the theory that the LC was the knight.

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16 minutes ago, Widow's Watch said:

We know from the current story that there are a few shields lying around in the armory of Harrenhal, including one bearing the arms of House Lothston that Jaime takes. All Benjen needed to do was go there and choose a shield no one would need or look for.

Good catch! Yes, you are right.

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15 hours ago, Ylath's Snout said:

Yeah, that and people are trying to come up with something else to be cool contrarians.

It's the only reason why theories like Order of the Green Hand's exist. Look at any of them and nearly all are trying to buck the trend. It's a little depressing really - GRRM's slow paced writing has essentially driven the fanbase insane. :blink:

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Just now, Faera said:

GRRM's slow paced writing has essentially driven the fanbase insane. :blink:

TBF I think that is kinda reasonable considering he is taking his sweet time with tWoW.

At the very least this sort of thing keeps the fanbase alive and active as opposed to all discussion just shutting down.

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1 minute ago, Ylath's Snout said:

At the very least this sort of thing keeps the fanbase alive and active as opposed to all discussion just shutting down.

Oh I agree. It's just that the dragging out of revelations like Jon Snow's mother and whether Ashara Dayne is remotely important is what gave birth to the more out there, fanficy theories.

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some ideas are alright, at least interesting even if you think it's not real. I quickly avoided OotGH videos, I feel they've created their own little background story and it's just way too much guesswork. Push comes to shove they may be against R+L=J and though that theory might have been a more surprising reveal if the books came out quicker,  at least that is simple and clean and makes sense, you don't need a whole background to explain it away.

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On 7/6/2018 at 6:37 PM, Megorova said:

@The Weirwoods Eyes

At tournaments they used 12-feet lances.

 

A shield, made of leather alone, doesn't make sense at all. How can it protect its owner from swords, arrows, and spears? So probably it's not a "leather shield", it's a shield, made from wooden or metal base, covered by leather.

They did had and used metal:

Used Google to look what a leather shield is, found info from games:

http://oldschoolrunescape.wikia.com/wiki/Leather_shield

http://oldschoolrunescape.wikia.com/wiki/Hard_leather_shield

https://darksouls.wiki.fextralife.com/Leather+Shield

https://exvius.gamepedia.com/Leather_Shield

https://dragon-quest.org/wiki/Leather_shield

So leather shield is NOT actually a leather shield. It's a shield COVERED with leather.

Well, yes, I suppose but none of that makes it suitable for a jousting shield.  The crannogmen don't ride, they don't joust and they don't have any of the equipment a mounted knight would take for granted.

Please don't quote pc games!  And anyway, all it did was show that the kind of shield you are talking about is paired with a "ranger", i.e. a lightly armed mobile footsoldier like Meera, rather than a knight.

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5 hours ago, the trees have eyes said:

Well, yes, I suppose but none of that makes it suitable for a jousting shield. 

There's no any speacial requirements for a joustling shield. They use their average shields for jousting. <- that's based on Dunk&Egg novels.

If leather shield, is a shield, made from wood or metal, that is covered with leather, then it is no less suitable to be used for jousting, as any other shield.

5 hours ago, the trees have eyes said:

The crannogmen don't ride, they don't joust and they don't have any of the equipment a mounted knight would take for granted.

Still, their shields could be used for jousting. Because why not?

5 hours ago, the trees have eyes said:

Please don't quote pc games!

^_^ Ok.

5 hours ago, the trees have eyes said:

And anyway, all it did was show that the kind of shield you are talking about is paired with a "ranger", i.e. a lightly armed mobile footsoldier like Meera, rather than a knight.

But that's the thing! -> crannogmen's smaller than average shield, would be perfect for someone like Lyanna. Shield of average knight, would be too big and too heavy for her. And thus would be more of a hindrance, than a suitable protection.

Why MK's armour was mismatched? That's because Lyanna needed to find armour, that will match her size. So she took a helm from one person/source/armoury/armour; ringmail or armour plates from the other (maybe even Howland's bronze-covered shirt, which basically is the same thing as a ringmail); spare lance, unmarked, probably took it from practive grounds (in Hedge and Mystery Knights novels, all participants of tournament were using their own lances, that they brought there, and each knight's lances were marked with his colors/sigil, though there were also unmarked lances, used for practice).

So Howland's shield, and maybe even his bronze-scaled shirt, were parts of Lyanna's mismatched armour. Where else would Lyanna have found ringmail, small enough to fit her?

Not sure about shirt, but I'm 99% sure, that MK's shield WAS Howland's. That's how he knew, who MK really was. Cause he noticed, that his shield is MIA, and the only person, that matched MK's stature, and had access to Howland's belongings, was Lyanna.

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