Order of the Green Hand says Jon is Ned’s trueborn son with Ashara? I’m not sure...

[Ygrain]

Let me tell you a little secret: as Rhaegar's son, Jon has Dayne blood, as well.

Not to mention that it is in no way a certain that Dawn is Lightbringer, or that it will even be needed, so basing Jon's parentage on the ability to wield it is putting the horses before the cart.

[Megorova]

13 hours ago, KingEuronGreyjoy said:

I agree that Jon is Ned and Ashara’s child. He wouldn’t be able to wield the sword of the morning. Only a Dayne can wield that legendary sword.

If Jon is Rhaegar's son, then he is great great great grandson of Queen Dyanna Dayne (mother of Aegon V), which makes Arthur and Ashara Jon's third cousins once removed (they were Rhaegar's third cousins), and Edric Dayne is Jon's fourth cousin.

Under normal circumstances, if Jon was Dyanna's great great great grandson, then he would have had only 3,125% of Dayne's blood, which is not much, but it still counts as being relatives. Though because Jon's ancestors intermarried within family, he has much higher percentage of Dayne's blood. He is 12,5% Targaryen, 12,5% Dayne, 25% Blackwood (thru Egg's wife, Betha Blackwood (actually there should be 12,5% of Blackwood blood, thru Betha's father, and additionally 12,5% of unknown House's blood, thru Betha's mother)), and 50% Stark (both of his maternal grandparents were Starks, first cousins).

So Jon is as much Dayne, as he is a Targaryen - by 1/8.

For example Robert Baratheon was 6,25% Targaryen, 6,25% Dayne, 12,5% Blackwood, 25% Baratheon, and 50% Estermont. Maesters and Septons of 7K, after Robert's Rebellion, decided, that Robert being 1/16 Targaryen, is enough for him to make a legitimate claim of Targaryen Crown. So Jon has more right to claim ancestral sword of Daynes, than Robert ever had a right to sit on Iron Throne (if we won't include his right, gained by conquest. Though he didn't managed to get Viserys and Dany, and they didn't abdicated their inheritance rights. So legally Robert was an usurper, not a conqueror).

15 hours ago, KingEuronGreyjoy said:

Not to mention The Prince Which Is Promised and Azor Agai are two different people. 

I think, that Jon is new Azor Ahai, and that Dany is the promised Princess, while her son, Rhaego, is the Stallion that will mount the world. So the three of them together, birth of whom was foretold in three separate prophecies, are three heads of the dragon. Like a parallel to the Holy Trinity - Father, Son and the Holy Spirit, while in ASOIAF there will be - Mother, Son and the Holy Ghost (Jon resurected, after being warged into Ghost, for long period of time).

[Faera]

23 hours ago, Megorova said:

There's no any speacial requirements for a joustling shield. They use their average shields for jousting. <- that's based on Dunk&Egg novels.

If leather shield, is a shield, made from wood or metal, that is covered with leather, then it is no less suitable to be used for jousting, as any other shield.

Still, their shields could be used for jousting. Because why not?

Ok.

But that's the thing! -> crannogmen's smaller than average shield, would be perfect for someone like Lyanna. Shield of average knight, would be too big and too heavy for her. And thus would be more of a hindrance, than a suitable protection.

Why MK's armour was mismatched? That's because Lyanna needed to find armour, that will match her size. So she took a helm from one person/source/armoury/armour; ringmail or armour plates from the other (maybe even Howland's bronze-covered shirt, which basically is the same thing as a ringmail); spare lance, unmarked, probably took it from practive grounds (in Hedge and Mystery Knights novels, all participants of tournament were using their own lances, that they brought there, and each knight's lances were marked with his colors/sigil, though there were also unmarked lances, used for practice).

So Howland's shield, and maybe even his bronze-scaled shirt, were parts of Lyanna's mismatched armour. Where else would Lyanna have found ringmail, small enough to fit her?

Not sure about shirt, but I'm 99% sure, that MK's shield WAS Howland's. That's how he knew, who MK really was. Cause he noticed, that his shield is MIA, and the only person, that matched MK's stature, and had access to Howland's belongings, was Lyanna.

But Howland’s armour, what little there was, wouldn’t be suitable for a joust, full stop.

Anyway, Howland probably knew who the KotLT was because Lyanna told him. 

[Megorova]

2 hours ago, Faera said:

But Howland’s armour, what little there was, wouldn’t be suitable for a joust, full stop.

He had a shirt of bronze scales/rings.

Metal shirt (i.e. ringmail) goes above layer of clothes. Then, over it is placed other parts of armor, like breastplate, etc. It gives additional layer of protection.

Like this (ringmail shirt is seen the clearest at 1:23, when he's dying):

 

Both of them are wearing ringmail shirt under their armor. The Mountain too.

3 hours ago, Faera said:

Anyway, Howland probably knew who the KotLT was because Lyanna told him. 

That would have been boring, and wrong. Who does a good deed, to brag about it later? How else, if not bragging, could it be interpreted, if she defended Howland's honor, and then said to him, about what she (15 y.o. girl) did for him (an adult man)? 

[kissdbyfire]

13 minutes ago, Megorova said:

That would have been boring, and wrong. Who does a good deed, to brag about it later? How else, if not bragging, could it be interpreted, if she defended Howland's honor, and then said to him, about what she (15 y.o. girl) did for him (an adult man)? 

Given that Lyanna first chased off the squires in Howland's presence, there'd be no need to brag about anything. He knew she had defended him because he was there and saw it happen. No need to keep the truth about the KotLT from him.

[Bloodraven's Spider]

Jon is Ned's and Ashara's just accept it... 

[Frey family reunion]

On ‎7‎/‎5‎/‎2018 at 4:46 PM, Faera said:

Well, Rhaegar seems to have preferred brunettes... 

 

So you think Arthur was a brunette?

[Faera]

51 minutes ago, Bloodraven's Spider said:

Jon is Ned's and Ashara's just accept it... 

Nope.

14 minutes ago, Frey family reunion said:

So you think Arthur was a brunette?

1 hour ago, Megorova said:

He had a shirt of bronze scales/rings.

Metal shirt (i.e. ringmail) goes above layer of clothes. Then, over it is placed other parts of armor, like breastplate, etc. It gives additional layer of protection.

Like this (ringmail shirt is seen the clearest at 1:23, when he's dying):

 

Both of them are wearing ringmail shirt under their armor. The Mountain too.

Bronze scales aren't the same as maille.

Besides the point, the bottom line is that Benjen was going to help Howland find armour that he could wear - so, there's no reason to suggest that he didn't do the same for Lyanna. With some many bits and pieces lying around, there is no reason whatsoever for Lyanna to take the shirt off Howland's back.

Quote

That would have been boring, and wrong. Who does a good deed, to brag about it later? How else, if not bragging, could it be interpreted, if she defended Howland's honor, and then said to him, about what she (15 y.o. girl) did for him (an adult man)?

Who the heck said anything about bragging?! Mysterious knight turns up to challenge the men who attacked him - I'm willing to bet Howland has enough brain cells to figure it out without Lyanna stealing his not-fit-for-purpose light armour.

What I meant was that Howland may very well have known what Lyanna was going to do before she did it, and perhaps even aided and abetted her along with Benjen. 

1 hour ago, kissdbyfire said:

Given that Lyanna first chased off the squires in Howland's presence, there'd be no need to brag about anything. He knew she had defended him because he was there and saw it happen. No need to keep the truth about the KotLT from him.

Exactly. 

[Bael's Bastard]

23 hours ago, KingEuronGreyjoy said:

I agree that Jon is Ned and Ashara’s child. He wouldn’t be able to wield the sword of the morning. Only a Dayne can wield that legendary sword. Not to mention The Prince Which Is Promised and Azor Agai are two different people. 

There is no scenario in which a child of Ned and Ashara would be a Dayne. Such a child would either be a Stark or a Snow.

As the son of Rhaegar, Jon will have Dayne ancestry through Aegon V, whose mother was Dyanna Dayne.

[Ylath's Snout]

23 hours ago, KingEuronGreyjoy said:

Only a Dayne can wield that legendary sword.

1. We don't know if there is anything special with Dawn aside from a funky paint job.
2. Last time I check this isn't MGS4 and Dawn isn't ID-locked. Jon Snow wouldn't need Drebin to use it, just his hands.

[Bloodraven's Spider]

1 hour ago, Faera said:

Nope.

Bronze scales aren't the same as maille.

Besides the point, the bottom line is that Benjen was going to help Howland find armour that he could wear - so, there's no reason to suggest that he didn't do the same for Lyanna. With some many bits and pieces lying around, there is no reason whatsoever for Lyanna to take the shirt off Howland's back.

Who the heck said anything about bragging?! Mysterious knight turns up to challenge the men who attacked him - I'm willing to bet Howland has enough brain cells to figure it out without Lyanna stealing his not-fit-for-purpose light armour.

What I meant was that Howland may very well have known what Lyanna was going to do before she did it, and perhaps even aided and abetted her along with Benjen. 

Exactly. 

Yep.... if not whose his parents 

[The Weirwoods Eyes]

12 hours ago, Bloodraven's Spider said:

Yep.... if not whose his parents 

I think you know the answer to this one already. 

If Ned is his father then why does he skip Jon out when listing his children?

If Ashara is his mother why does Ned not think of her even once, even when regretting having never been able to tell Jon the truth about his mother? 

[the trees have eyes]

1 hour ago, The Weirwoods Eyes said:

I think you know the answer to this one already. 

If Ned is his father then why does he skip Jon out when listing his children?

If Ashara is his mother why does Ned not think of her even once, even when regretting having never been able to tell Jon the truth about his mother? 

Not to mention that if Jon really is the son of Ned and Ashara what is the big deal, why the need for such secrecy and why has the author spent so much time on it?  It serves no purpose.

[Ygrain]

1 hour ago, the trees have eyes said:

Not to mention that if Jon really is the son of Ned and Ashara what is the big deal, why the need for such secrecy and why has the author spent so much time on it?  It serves no purpose.

Not to mention, who the hell is Lyanna's child and why do his promises to her haunt Ned so much?  I don't think the promise went "send my child away and never ever bother thinking about him/her again".

[Faera]

17 hours ago, Bloodraven's Spider said:

Yep.... if not whose his parents 

Playing coy, eh? 

@the trees have eyes and @The Weirwoods Eyes - I completely concur with both of you.

1 hour ago, Ygrain said:

Not to mention, who the hell is Lyanna's child and why do his promises to her haunt Ned so much?  I don't think the promise went "send my child away and never ever bother thinking about him/her again".

Well, since it goes hand in hand with their NA theory, (along with Val being Jon’s twin ), TOotGH think Aegon is their son... for some reason. I haven’t watched their video for a while but I seem to recall it was based on the colour blue and frudging the dates, as with most of their stuff. I vaguely remember us going around in circles with a few people over that when that video first came out... 

[kissdbyfire]

37 minutes ago, Faera said:

along with Val being Jon’s twin

Val? Never heard that one, only the Meera and Jon are twins... maybe they're triplets?

[Bloodraven's Spider]

1 hour ago, Faera said:

Playing coy, eh? 

@the trees have eyes and @The Weirwoods Eyes - I completely concur with both of you.

Well, since it goes hand in hand with their NA theory, (along with Val being Jon’s twin ), TOotGH think Aegon is their son... for some reason. I haven’t watched their video for a while but I seem to recall it was based on the colour blue and frudging the dates, as with most of their stuff. I vaguely remember us going around in circles with a few people over that when that video first came out... 

Coy is the nature of the game (silent but deadly)... but seriously does Ned Daynes comments hold no water? We automatically dismiss them... They hold alot of weight imo

[The Hidden Dragon]

5 hours ago, The Weirwoods Eyes said:

If Ned is his father then why does he skip Jon out when listing his children?

Exactly!  Ned's own thoughts are the biggest proof, not a clue, but are proof that Jon is not Ned's son.

Having said that...I do believe that there is something about Ashara that Ned wants kept hidden, something important.  I don't believe she is a red herring.  In AGOT, after Catelyn brings up Ashara to Ned, he goes out of his way to make sure that Ashara's name is never spoken again in Winterfell.  Why, if not to keep some secret hidden? 

 

[Euron III Greyjoy]

I'm not ruling out N+A=J, but just looking at this from an emotional standpoint, if Jon is his and Ashara's son why not just tell him and put the poor lad out of his misery? At least if he is Rhaegar and Lyanna's son him not telling anyone is protecting Jon's life. If he is Ashara's son then not telling him just seems like he is ashamed of Jon's existence, and an unnecessary cruelty. 

But saying that if I where Ned Stark I also wouldn't send either my own son, or the last connection I have to my sister off to freeze his balls off at the wall. Sure you could say that Jon wanted to go, but he also wasn't told about what the Nights Watch had become, and going by his reaction when he arrived at the wall, there is no way in hell he would have chosen that route had Ned told him the truth. 

But then again I suppose you could argue that point by saying someone with Ned's personality might just be unable to see what the Nights Watch has become himself. 

[Faera]

1 hour ago, kissdbyfire said:

Val? Never heard that one, only the Meera and Jon are twins... maybe they're triplets?

Don't forget Daenerys! Quadruplets.

EDIT: @kissdbyfire I am telling the truth, BTW. Here it it:

Get ready for twincest 2.0, oh, devotee of J+V=OTP. 

Oh, and Mance is Arthur Dayne, too.

57 minutes ago, Bloodraven's Spider said:

Coy is the nature of the game (silent but deadly)... but seriously does Ned Daynes comments hold no water? We automatically dismiss them... They hold alot of weight imo

If Ned Dayne's comments hold a lot of weight then I guess Wylla must be Jon's mother.
 

55 minutes ago, The Hidden Dragon said:

Having said that...I do believe that there is something about Ashara that Ned wants kept hidden, something important.  I don't believe she is a red herring.  In AGOT, after Catelyn brings up Ashara to Ned, he goes out of his way to make sure that Ashara's name is never spoken again in Winterfell.  Why, if not to keep some secret hidden? 

I always read it as him simply not wanting people to discuss Jon's mother.

That was the only time in all their years that Ned had ever frightened her. "Never ask me about Jon," he said, cold as ice. "He is my blood, and that is all you need to know. And now I will learn where you heard that name, my lady." She had pledged to obey; she told him; and from that day on, the whispering had stopped, and Ashara Dayne's name was never heard in Winterfell again.

Perhaps a part of him also didn't want any further tarnishing of the poor woman's name as well. I don't think it's any more than that. Had Ashara been significant to Ned in some way, I would have expected thought of her in his POVs yet we receive none and when Cersei mentions Ashara, we do not receive a reaction. Therefore it is Cat's paranoia and gossip feeding into the Ashara theory and little else.

24 minutes ago, EloImFizzy said:

I'm not ruling out N+A=J, but just looking at this from an emotional standpoint, if Jon is his and Ashara's son why not just tell him and put the poor lad out of his misery? At least if he is Rhaegar and Lyanna's son him not telling anyone is protecting Jon's life. If he is Ashara's son then not telling him just seems like he is ashamed of Jon's existence, and an unnecessary cruelty. 

But saying that if I where Ned Stark I also wouldn't send either my own son, or the last connection I have to my sister off to freeze his balls off at the wall. Sure you could say that Jon wanted to go, but he also wasn't told about what the Nights Watch had become, and going by his reaction when he arrived at the wall, there is no way in hell he would have chosen that route had Ned told him the truth. 

But then again I suppose you could argue that point by saying someone with Ned's personality might just be unable to see what the Nights Watch has become himself. 

I think he must have some idea given Benjen was First Ranger in the Night's Watch. However, the way in which the situation was painted when Ned was being essentially bullied into going South, that Cat would not let Jon stay at Winterfell without Ned there and he felt couldn't take him to court where he would be ridiculed more than anything as a bastard. If Jon had those connections in the somewhat more accepting Dorne, in House Dayne, it would have made more sense to reach out to them to give Jon a home.

The sending of Jon to the Wall to essentially be put under Benjen's watchful eye was about the best choice out of nothing but crappy choices for a secret son of Lyanna or, heck, the son of a nobody wetnurse or fisherman's daughter.