Jump to content
Angel Eyes

Order of the Green Hand says Jon is Ned’s trueborn son with Ashara? I’m not sure...

Recommended Posts

9 hours ago, Bloodraven's Spider said:

Ned was with Ashara on his way to riverrun for Brandon’s wedding. When news broke about his death. He went back to Winterfell while with Ashara except he left her in White Harbor. After he got back to Winterfell and called the banners he had some time while he waited for th northern forces to gather themselves and head to Winterfell. During this time he most likely went back to White harbor and banged Ashara. His promise to Lyanna was to keep Aegon safe (he’s legit. His father is Rhaegar his mother is Lyanna.)

What evidence from the text is there that this happened? 

Quote

Jon and Robb’s storyline mirror Neds so much. Ned was forced into a marriage so was Robb we see how both those player out. Jon did a baby swap like Ned (both dayne babies as well) and always does what’s right and best for everyone rather then himself.

Robb chose to marry Jeyne because he viewed it as the right thig to do. No one was forcing him. In fact most people would have expected him to keep his pact with the Freys who's forces he needed. The Westerlings had absolutely NO leverage over Robb he was a King occupying their castle.  

Robb was manipulated by Jeyne's mother who took a gamble that should she push her daughter towards his bed he'd wed her. It paid off but at no point was Robb forced, he was forced to accept a betrothal by Walder Frey who denied him passage through the twins unless he agreed to the marriage, this paid off in that he also gained an alliance which provided troops.  

Just as Ned had to accept Cat as a bride in order to gain Hoster Tully's support. Robb howether broke his betrothal so whilst the two of them faced similar situations each made a different choice. The consequences of which are evidenced by the outcomes. 

Jon does not swap a Dayne baby he swaps a two wildling babies, Gilly & Crasters son.  Swapped with Dalla & Mance's Mance is categorically not a Dayne. Nor is Dalla. Unless you have some in text evidence I've missed. 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted (edited)
2 hours ago, The Weirwoods Eyes said:

What evidence from the text is there that this happened? 

Robb chose to marry Jeyne because he viewed it as the right thig to do. No one was forcing him. In fact most people would have expected him to keep his pact with the Freys who's forces he needed. The Westerlings had absolutely NO leverage over Robb he was a King occupying their castle.  

Robb was manipulated by Jeyne's mother who took a gamble that should she push her daughter towards his bed he'd wed her. It paid off but at no point was Robb forced, he was forced to accept a betrothal by Walder Frey who denied him passage through the twins unless he agreed to the marriage, this paid off in that he also gained an alliance which provided troops.  

Just as Ned had to accept Cat as a bride in order to gain Hoster Tully's support. Robb howether broke his betrothal so whilst the two of them faced similar situations each made a different choice. The consequences of which are evidenced by the outcomes. 

Jon does not swap a Dayne baby he swaps a two wildling babies, Gilly & Crasters son.  Swapped with Dalla & Mance's Mance is categorically not a Dayne. Nor is Dalla. Unless you have some in text evidence I've missed. 

 

@Bloodraven’s Spider is explaining the theory as OOtGH sees it.

Edited by Angel Eyes

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted (edited)
24 minutes ago, Angel Eyes said:

@Bloodraven’s Spider is explaining the theory as OOtGH sees it.

Ahaha, yes but one would hope they've thought about it a little further than "I saw this video I like and therefore will believe every word of it no matter how much evidence there is to the contrary." Unless they are secretly OotGH. In which case, several posters here have already roundly debunked their claims and highlighted just how much of their theory is speculative fanfiction that flies in the face of who these characters are. :dunno:

2 hours ago, The Weirwoods Eyes said:

Jon does not swap a Dayne baby he swaps a two wildling babies, Gilly & Crasters son.  Swapped with Dalla & Mance's Mance is categorically not a Dayne. Nor is Dalla. Unless you have some in text evidence I've missed. 

OotGH think Mance is Arthur Dayne. <_<

Which, to be far, is not their own original theory and I have seen it argued else where though it's still very doubtful.

Edited by Faera

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
31 minutes ago, Faera said:

Which, to be far, is not their own original theory and I have seen it argued else where though it's still very doubtful.

And is thoroughly refuted by GRRM's confirmation that Ned and Howland were the only two men to leave ToJ (if "they were seven against three, yet only two lived to ride away" requires confirmation).

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted (edited)
3 hours ago, The Weirwoods Eyes said:

What evidence from the text is there that this happened? 

Robb chose to marry Jeyne because he viewed it as the right thig to do. No one was forcing him. In fact most people would have expected him to keep his pact with the Freys who's forces he needed. The Westerlings had absolutely NO leverage over Robb he was a King occupying their castle.  

Robb was manipulated by Jeyne's mother who took a gamble that should she push her daughter towards his bed he'd wed her. It paid off but at no point was Robb forced, he was forced to accept a betrothal by Walder Frey who denied him passage through the twins unless he agreed to the marriage, this paid off in that he also gained an alliance which provided troops.  

Just as Ned had to accept Cat as a bride in order to gain Hoster Tully's support. Robb howether broke his betrothal so whilst the two of them faced similar situations each made a different choice. The consequences of which are evidenced by the outcomes. 

Jon does not swap a Dayne baby he swaps a two wildling babies, Gilly & Crasters son.  Swapped with Dalla & Mance's Mance is categorically not a Dayne. Nor is Dalla. Unless you have some in text evidence I've missed. 

 

Mance is Arthur fucking mook

Edited by Bloodraven's Spider

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
16 hours ago, Ygrain said:

Not sure what you mean here. I was referring to the fact that people like Cersei or even the young Ned Dayne stating/speculating about N+A doesn't constitute for a clue that such a relationship ever existed. Also, it is not so difficult to see where the rumour might have come from - Ashara is seen with a Stark/Starks, has a baby, Ned Stark visits Starfall, Ashara commits suicide, Ned Stark is raising a bastard of an unknown mother. An easy conclusion to jump to, on the surface.

I realized that was what you meant after writing much of that part, which is why I included the part about characters in story being rather shoddy at unraveling any mysteries on their own. The question of Jon Snow's mother is a mystery in Westeros and conspiracy theories are bound to pop up. What are the chances that any important characters have a Rhaegar/Lyanna baby in the back of their mind as an option? We obviously have the bloody bed scene that only Howland and Ned knew about as an extra clue. But is it really possible that no one has put together that this was not Ned's character and Rhaegar and Lyanna spent almost a year together in a place called the Tower of Joy.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 hours ago, Faera said:

OotGH think Mance is Arthur Dayne. <_<

Which, to be far, is not their own original theory and I have seen it argued else where though it's still very doubtful.

No, not original but also not likely! 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, Bloodraven's Spider said:

Mance is Arthur fucking mook

Don't be silly.  Mance Raydar's back story is very well known.  And neither Arthur Dayne nor Mance Raydar was a "fucking mook".  :rolleyes:

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted (edited)
4 hours ago, Ygrain said:

And is thoroughly refuted by GRRM's confirmation that Ned and Howland were the only two men to leave ToJ (if "they were seven against three, yet only two lived to ride away" requires confirmation).

Exactly. It's not like I can't understand the desire for some of these characters to have survived to tell their stories but these are theories born out of wishful people's wish lists more than anything written in the books.

I mean, I have a list of speculative "fun" things I want to happen, too. Doesn't mean I run around broadcasting them as fact. -_-

3 hours ago, Bloodraven's Spider said:

Mance is Arthur fucking mook

Okay... moving on:

20 minutes ago, The Weirwoods Eyes said:

Who is Arthur Mook? 

:rofl:

33 minutes ago, Valyrian Lance said:

But is it really possible that no one has put together that this was not Ned's character and Rhaegar and Lyanna spent almost a year together in a place called the Tower of Joy.

I'm not sure how much of what happened at the "Tower of Joy", including its very name, is public knowledge. Probably the "official version" that most people in Westeros know is what is said in TWoI&F. Even the bits that are known are probablybased on Ned's version of events. Winner writes history, after all.

So, controlling the details of what happened right down to tearing down the Tower itself, burying all the men who had died but taking Lyanna's body home wouldn't have been hard. If I were to speculate, even if someone asked whether Lyanna had given birth all he need say is the baby was stillborn. Lying to protect "his blood" and keep his promise to his sister could have spurred him forward...

Edited by Faera

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
8 minutes ago, the trees have eyes said:

Don't be silly.  Mance Raydar's back story is very well known.  And neither Arthur Dayne nor Mance Raydar was a "fucking mook".  :rolleyes:

Um, what even is a "mook"? :dunce:

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
7 hours ago, Valyrian Lance said:

I realized that was what you meant after writing much of that part, which is why I included the part about characters in story being rather shoddy at unraveling any mysteries on their own. The question of Jon Snow's mother is a mystery in Westeros and conspiracy theories are bound to pop up. What are the chances that any important characters have a Rhaegar/Lyanna baby in the back of their mind as an option? We obviously have the bloody bed scene that only Howland and Ned knew about as an extra clue. But is it really possible that no one has put together that this was not Ned's character and Rhaegar and Lyanna spent almost a year together in a place called the Tower of Joy.

Ah, I see. 

We are missing one crucial piece - what Ned stated as the cause of Lyanna's death. I wonder whether he may have been so bold as to state that she died in childbirth along with the baby, or had a miscarriage. Either way, most people simply wouldn't question The Ned who never lies, either because they respected his honour, or thought him a simpleton who would never be able to pull such a coverup. Then there's the aspect mentioned in connection with Stannis - people love to believe the worst about individuals of outstanding morality, so the big honorable Ned Stark having a bastard is just the kind of stain that people love to smear. Plus, having bastards, especially during wartime, is considered such a commonplace that no-one ever gives it a second thought.

Furthermore, there is another missing piece, and that is the transportation of Jon to Winterfell. I believe that for Ned's lie to work, and for no devious mind to ever start suspecting, it was essential to put as much time and distance between Lyanna's death and Jon as possible. IMHO, the detour to Starfall to return Dawn served as a ruse to obtain means of transport that would allow for Jon's safe and secret passage to the North, without anyone outside Starfall knowing about his existence. Ned would then take a separate route, perhaps to report back to Robert, and return to Winterfell on his own. In this way, the news that he had a bastard would reach the South many months (or even years) later, which would perfectly obscure any connection to Lyanna as no-one would know how old Jon really was or where he came from. IMHO, Ned's unwillingness to take Jon South might actually come out of fear that the ruse would be undermined if people learned about Jon's age or the fact that he doesn't even know his mother.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
30 minutes ago, Ygrain said:

Then there's the aspect mentioned in connection with Stannis - people love to believe the worst about individuals of outstanding morality, so the big honorable Ned Stark having a bastard is just the kind of stain that people love to smear. Plus, having bastards, especially during wartime, is considered such a commonplace that no-one ever gives it a second thought.

 

So is that the part about Cersei accusing Ned of being a rapist come from in their conversation in AGOT?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
46 minutes ago, Angel Eyes said:

So is that the part about Cersei accusing Ned of being a rapist come from in their conversation in AGOT?

I always felt that Cersei's presumption that Jon's mother was of Dornish origin, "Some Dornish peasant you raped while her holdfast burned? A whore? Or was it the grieving sister, the Lady Ashara?" was yet another clue that people had linked the birth of Jon to Ned's campaign in Dorne.

So, perhaps @Ygrain is correct when she suggests the wider world of Westeros really don't know much about Jon, including how old he is. I mean, why would they? He's a bastard. Obviously, the immediate family and retainers would know his age because he's been at Winterfell since he was a few months older and they watched him grow up - but there's no reason someone like Cersei would know the precise age. No more than the more than the rest of Westeros who have only heard of "Ned Stark's bastard" through the grapevine. We don't even have proof Robert physically saw baby Jon, so, he wouldn't know for certain what age he was... only that he was fathered "during the war". Ned has a lot of control over the narrative.

Actually, GRRM bothers to mention that Joffrey "was twelve, younger than Jon or Robb, but taller than either, to Jon's vast dismay." and then only a handful of chapters later Tyrion actually mistakes Jon for around Joffrey's age of twelve. So, it goes to show no one is keeping tabs on this stuff.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now

×