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Angel Eyes

Order of the Green Hand says Jon is Ned’s trueborn son with Ashara? I’m not sure...

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The main problem I have with any N+A=J theory comes from Ned's own thoughts.  In AGOT, Eddard XII, when Ned is confronting Cersei, he specifically thinks about his children in the context of the life of another child against the life of his own children.  Here is the quote:

If it came to that, the life of some child I did not know, against Robb and Sansa and Arya and Bran and Rickon, what would I do?

Ned specifically names to himself each of his children, in the order of their birth, but does not mention Jon.  This to me is the strongest evidence that Jon is not Ned's son - Ned's own thoughts.

 

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6 hours ago, Giant Ice Spider said:

I do think that Ned and Ashara married, and that Ned was basically forced to commit bigamy by Hoster Tully.

That said, I believe R + L = J.

If Ned and Ashara had a child, I'm tempted to say it was Dany, but that's just speculation.

That is hardly possible.  Neither Ned (coarse features of the First Men) and Ashara (dark hair) could have produced a silver-gold haired beauty like Dany.  

I do not support R + L = J.  

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2 minutes ago, Widowmaker 811 said:

Those are some pretty serious charges.  Ned already being married to Ashara and then after the fact marrying Catelyn.  That's some very serious ethical and legal violations.  I'll stop short of saying it didn't happen but if it did, it fundamentally changes the story for many reasons.  That would make Snowball a potential wielder of Dawn with a distant claim on Starfall.  Catelyn's children with Ned do not have rights to Winterfell.  Snowball is the heir to Winterfell.  

In the linked video in the first post in this thread, that’s exactly what they’re saying.

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1 minute ago, The Hidden Dragon said:

The main problem I have with any N+A=J theory comes from Ned's own thoughts.  In AGOT, Eddard XII, when Ned is confronting Cersei, he specifically thinks about his children in the context of the life of another child against the life of his own children.  Here is the quote:

If it came to that, the life of some child I did not know, against Robb and Sansa and Arya and Bran and Rickon, what would I do?

Ned specifically names to himself each of his children, in the order of their birth, but does not mention Jon.  This to me is the strongest evidence that Jon is not Ned's son - Ned's own thoughts.

 

Mance Rayder and Brandon Stark are the most likely men who fathered Jon.  One of those two.

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Also, if I recall their theory correctly, much of their version of the timeline hinges upon the age of Viserys.  I believe they rely upon Daenerys' thoughts that Viserys was a boy of eight when they fled King's Landing.  With the WOIAF indicating that Viserys was born in 276, and relying upon Daenerys' thoughts of Viserys' age, they conclude that the Sack of KL took place in 284, whereas, I believe the common understanding is that the Sack took place in 283. 

The problem of course is that Daenerys wasn't born when KL was sacked so she could not know or remember how old Viserys was at the time.  She, most likely, was told stories by Viserys, which may have been incorrect, exaggerated or lies.  Or it could be a case of an unreliable narrator, just as Ned struggled to remember the ages of Robert's children.  In either case, their conclusion that the Sack took place in 284 is crucial to their timeline, if my memory serves.

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28 minutes ago, Widowmaker 811 said:

Snowball is the heir to Winterfell.  

He would have been the heir but by joining the Night's Watch he gave up those claims, as well as those to Starfall  and as Ned's recognised bastards Robb and the rest would still have damn good claims to Winterfell.

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I can't wait for WoW to come out so we can finally put all of this to bed.  

The idea that Jon is the son of Brandon or Mance (which is beyond ridiculous) is hilarious.  So many on this board have overanalyzed this situation to death, especially considering there is zero textual evidence that Jon belongs to anyone but Lyanna and Rhaegar.  I know that is going to ultimately disappoint a lot of folks here, but it's the fact of the matter.

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11 minutes ago, acwill07 said:

I can't wait for WoW to come out so we can finally put all of this to bed.  

The idea that Jon is the son of Brandon or Mance (which is beyond ridiculous) is hilarious.  So many on this board have overanalyzed this situation to death, especially considering there is zero textual evidence that Jon belongs to anyone but Lyanna and Rhaegar.  I know that is going to ultimately disappoint a lot of folks here, but it's the fact of the matter.

Indeed. The list of people who are going to hate Winds grows each day, and all b/c of either hating Jon so much they miss all the clues in the text or just good old reading compeehension fail. :D

ETA: not a single crackpot insane idea theory by the OotGH makes any sense whatsoever. 

 

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4 hours ago, acwill07 said:

I can't wait for WoW to come out so we can finally put all of this to bed.  

The idea that Jon is the son of Brandon or Mance (which is beyond ridiculous) is hilarious.  So many on this board have overanalyzed this situation to death, especially considering there is zero textual evidence that Jon belongs to anyone but Lyanna and Rhaegar.  I know that is going to ultimately disappoint a lot of folks here, but it's the fact of the matter.

You never know...

GRRM might be saving the big reveal for the conclusion of the story in A Dream of Spring or whatever title he decides on for book 7 or 8.

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Honestly, I enjoy the "novelty" of their videos though I've yet to see any real hard-core evidence for this fantasy they have about Ned marrying Ashara.

I disagree wholeheartedly with Jon being Ned's bastard with Ashara but I can at least understand where people are coming from with that idea. The marriage idea, in the other hand, wishful thinking at best. Worst still they lack an real evidence for their idea... I just can't even find the energy to bother. 

Heck, to me there's more evidence that Ashara married Howland "I Know Everything" Reed than there is Ned. If you see my point.

[Incidentally, I think if Ashara had an actual child, it was probably a girl and Brandon done did it. Ned... I don't see it. Even if he was in love with her, I don't see it.]

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Given his attitude in AGOT of "Do the right and honorable thing come what may, even if the heavens crash in", I can't imagine him marrying Catelyn if he was already married.   He would simply swallow hard, and say "Sorry, but I can't marry Catelyn.  I'm already married." 

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On ‎6‎/‎29‎/‎2018 at 9:19 AM, Ylath's Snout said:

Why do you think that? I think they might have had something going on but I don't see Ned secretly marrying someone. To use a DnD term he just seems to lawful for that. He'd do it the proper way, asking his father and Ashara's family 

It's a bit odd Ned was unable to talk things out with Ser Arthur Dayne at the ToJ. It's possible, however likely, that part of the reason for this is Arthur being angry at Ned for dishonouring his sister.

And besides, if GRRM keeps mentioning Ashara Dayne and her relationship with Ned, it has to have some significance.

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20 hours ago, Widowmaker 811 said:

That is hardly possible.  Neither Ned (coarse features of the First Men) and Ashara (dark hair) could have produced a silver-gold haired beauty like Dany.  

I do not support R + L = J.  

I certainly recognise the inconsistencies in this theory, which is why I say I'm tempted to suggest it, not that I do suggest it.

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2 minutes ago, Giant Ice Spider said:

It's a bit odd Ned was unable to talk things out with Ser Arthur Dayne at the ToJ.

Not really. The KGs that kept watch at the Tower of Joy had to have been loyal to Rhaegar almost to the point of fanaticism to remain in Dorne instead of keeping Aerys safe or fight on the Trident.

Assuming R+L=J (or really any other kid) then they were keeping the future of the Targ dynasty (specifically Rhaegar branch) safe from people that condondned child-murder.

Only Ned and Howland made it out after all so clearly the KG were pretty evenly match in a fight with Ned's party.

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10 hours ago, Nevets said:

Given his attitude in AGOT of "Do the right and honorable thing come what may, even if the heavens crash in", I can't imagine him marrying Catelyn if he was already married.   He would simply swallow hard, and say "Sorry, but I can't marry Catelyn.  I'm already married." 

:agree:

Moreover it misses the resonance with Robb. I know in their video they really try to twist it so it fits in their eyes... but it doesn't.

Robb abandoning his politically advantageous marriage with a daughter of Walder Frey in order to save the honour of Jeyne Westerling was him "being his father's son". It is a nod to the audience in a sense that had Ned slept with Ashara and got her pregnant, he would have refused the marriage with Catelyn even at the great political cost. This idea that he'd have been bullied into marrying Cat simply does not fit the modus operandi. 

10 minutes ago, Giant Ice Spider said:

It's a bit odd Ned was unable to talk things out with Ser Arthur Dayne at the ToJ. It's possible, however likely, that part of the reason for this is Arthur being angry at Ned for dishonouring his sister.

And besides, if GRRM keeps mentioning Ashara Dayne and her relationship with Ned, it has to have some significance.

At that point Arthur's choice would probably have been to submit to Robert, take the Black or follow Rhaegar's last wish and defend the Tower, even if it meant killing Ned. I doubt Ashara had anything to do with it.

As for her relationship with Ned being mentioned.,. it's only mentioned by characters citing rumour. Barristan Selmy is the closest to a real eyewitness yet he never names Ned specifically but simply states that Ashara looked to "Stark". Given he had a fairly pleasant relationship with Ned and tends to call him "Lord Eddard", some people (including myself) wonder if "Stark" was referring to Brandon. Catelyn thinks about the possibility the most because Ned's refusal to tell her who Jon's mother was a lingering question for her. Cersei was probably just quoting the same rumour to Ned - and his lack of reaction indicates he has no emotional baggage there. Besides, there are other rumours about who Jon's mother was floating around out there, like Wylla and the Fisherman's Daughter, and probably more.

My point is that GRRM's mentions of twelve mentions of Ashara might be building up to a reveal but I wouldn't be surprised if it has nothing whatsoever to do with Ned but, instead, a man who was close to Ned at the tourney of Harrenhal.

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22 hours ago, Widowmaker 811 said:

Neither Ned (coarse features of the First Men) and Ashara (dark hair) could have produced a silver-gold haired beauty like Dany.  

I wouldn't be so sure about Ashara. Seems, that Daynes have mixed alleles in their genes.

Ned Dayne is blond and blue-eyed. Gerold Dayne has two-colored hair - silver and black. Out of four sons of Queen Dyanna Dayne, three had silver-gold hair, and one had darker hair, thus Dyanna's hair was dark, but she was carrier of both types of alleles - dark and light.

Daynes have blond color alleles in their genetic pool. So it's possible for a dark-haired Ashara to have blond child, if the father is also a carrier of light alleles. Which is unlikely for Starks.

22 hours ago, Widowmaker 811 said:

I do not support R + L = J.

:rolleyes:

Will you stop reading ASOIAF, if it will be revealed, that Jon is Rhaegar's son?

22 hours ago, Widowmaker 811 said:

Mance Rayder and Brandon Stark are the most likely men who fathered Jon.  One of those two.

And who's the mother?

2 hours ago, Faera said:

My point is that GRRM's mentions of twelve mentions of Ashara might be building up to a reveal

that Ashara Dayne is alive, and her current name is Jyana Reed. And that Ned Dayne is her third child with Howland Reed, after Meera and Jojen.

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12 minutes ago, Megorova said:

Gerold Dayne has two-colored hair - silver and black.

Gerold strikes me as the kind of dork that would get a colored streak to seem "edgy".

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3 minutes ago, Ylath's Snout said:

Gerold strikes me as the kind of dork that would get a colored streak to seem "edgy".

So which one's the colored streak?

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15 minutes ago, Angel Eyes said:

So which one's the colored streak?

The one black streak, I'd assume. It sure makes more sense than him having natural hair-coloring like that,

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