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Order of the Green Hand says Jon is Ned’s trueborn son with Ashara? I’m not sure...

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1 hour ago, Megorova said:

that Ashara Dayne is alive, and her current name is Jyana Reed. And that Ned Dayne is her third child with Howland Reed, after Meera and Jojen.

Though I'm not sold on that idea I find it significantly more plausible than Ned Stark committing bigamy. :rolleyes:

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1 minute ago, Faera said:

Though I'm not sold on that idea I find it significantly more plausible than Ned Stark committing bigamy. :rolleyes:

Edric Dayne is 12 years old. It would be difficult to pass him as a legitimate son of the Lord of Starfall at the time.

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8 minutes ago, Risto said:

Edric Dayne is 12 years old. It would be difficult to pass him as a legitimate son of the Lord of Starfall at the time.

OK...? At what time?

Ashara’s older brother could have had Edric at any time until he died, and we don’t know when that even happened.

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This whole thing is just . . .

There's wishful thinking and then there's what's written in the books. 

If Jon is Ned's and Ashara's, why would he be so cruel as to not only avoid telling him who his mother is, and then send him to the Wall instead of Dorne where he has family that might welcome him with open arms. If Ned had been married to Ashara, I believe he would have said so. That's not to mention that he doesn't think of her. She is brought up to him by Catelyn once like 14 years previous and then by Cersei. Ned has no emotional attachments to Ashara. His emotions are stroked by his memories of the promise he made Lyanna and the murder of children.  

The fisherman's daughter makes no sense in the timeline. And Godric Borrell is the one who tells the reader of her. This is the same man who had the most outlandish story about the murder of Tywin and how Tyrion twisted out of his cell and was covered with blood from head to heel. The only truth in his story is that Tyrion murdered Tywin. Perhaps the idea is that readers should take what the man says with a grain of salt.

Brynden Tully may have decided to leave Riverrun and go with Lysa because she was the one who needed him the most at that time. Brynden was close to all the children. They went to him with their problems. The odds that he knew of Lysa's pregnancy and the forced abortion are good, I think. And on top of that, Hoster used her as a bargaining chip and married her off to a man who was much older than he himself was. Brynden is loyal to his family, so he may have gone where he was needed at the time. And he returned to Riverrun when he was needed there.

I find YouTubers like the OoftheGH do a lot of harm to the story being told.

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33 minutes ago, Ylath's Snout said:

The one black streak, I'd assume. It sure makes more sense than him having natural hair-coloring like that,

Except that this is a story in which many Targaryens AKA Valyrians have naturally streaked hair and Tyrion too has bi-coloured hair. And where like Valryians house Dayne produces purple eyes.  Tyrion's heritage is suspected by many; I support this theory, to be Aerys's son. Thus a Valyrian descendant. All of which adds up to Dayne being somehow in possession of some Valyrian ancestry Or Proto Valyrian, Great Empire of the Dawn type heritage.  

Seems to me to be a more pertinent thing to write about that GRRM writing in a character who colours a streak of his hair and who he intended to be a cool badass character.  Dorkstar is the fandoms descriptor not the authors intent. 

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1 hour ago, Faera said:

OK...? At what time?

Ashara’s older brother could have had Edric at any time until he died, and we don’t know when that even happened.

At the time of Edric's birth. 

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3 minutes ago, Risto said:

At the time of Edric's birth. 

Well, there's no reason to believe he isn't the genuine son of the former Lord of Starfall. So, there's no need to fake anything.

Edited by Faera

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17 hours ago, Nevets said:

Given his attitude in AGOT of "Do the right and honorable thing come what may, even if the heavens crash in", I can't imagine him marrying Catelyn if he was already married.   He would simply swallow hard, and say "Sorry, but I can't marry Catelyn.  I'm already married." 

We don't know if Ned was the same man back then.  He was  young.  Robert needed Hoster Tully.  I can understand how Ned might do something dishonorable to keep from losing the war.  

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3 minutes ago, The Lord of the Crossing said:

We don't know if Ned was the same man back then.  He was  young.  Robert needed Hoster Tully.  I can understand how Ned might do something dishonorable to keep from losing the war. 

It isn't really possible to prove/disprove something like that though.

However Ned seems to have been really upset with Jaime for stabbing Aerys, if he was unwilling to approve of killing the blatantly mad king than I have a hard time seeing him become a willing bigamist.

Side-note Jaime not telling everyone what Aerys was planning never made much sense to me. It isn't like they wouldn't believe him.

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8 minutes ago, The Lord of the Crossing said:

We don't know if Ned was the same man back then.  He was  young.  Robert needed Hoster Tully.  I can understand how Ned might do something dishonorable to keep from losing the war.  

Robert would've had Hoster support the moment Jon Arryn married Lysa Tully. There's no reason for Hoster, Robert or Jon to force a already married Ned to marry Cat.

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5 minutes ago, Ylath's Snout said:

Side-note Jaime not telling everyone what Aerys was planning never made much sense to me. It isn't like they wouldn't believe him. 

Jaime is one messed up cookie. He already was far from the picture of healthy development before induction to Kingsguard, Then Aerys and his loyal Kingsguard happened, and Jaime ended up even more messed up. After the host of legendary exemplars of chivalric virtue left it circle down the drain, he is understandably touchy about the entire thing.

2 minutes ago, Daemon The Black Dragon said:

Robert would've had Hoster support the moment Jon Arryn married Lysa Tully.

Hoster did press for both Ned and Jon to marry, so Jon was obviously not enough.

 

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4 hours ago, Ylath's Snout said:

Gerold strikes me as the kind of dork that would get a colored streak to seem "edgy".

But there was several other people in the series, that also had two-colored hair - some Targaryen princes, and one of Egg's brothers (Daeron) - he had light brown hair and blond beard. And Egg's cousin Vallar also had two-colored hair - brown, with a streak of silver-gold. And Gerold's hair is silver, with streak of midnight black.

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2 minutes ago, Megorova said:

But there was several other people in the series, that also had two-colored hair - some Targaryen princes, and one of Egg's brothers (Daeron) - he had light brown hair and blond beard. And Egg's cousin Vallar also had two-colored hair - brown, with a streak of silver-gold. And Gerold's hair is silver, with streak of midnight black.

But do we know that they didn't just color their hair? Westeros clearly has superior proficiency in coloring all sorts of things compared to medieval Europe.

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3 hours ago, Risto said:

Edric Dayne is 12 years old. It would be difficult to pass him as a legitimate son of the Lord of Starfall at the time.

I think, that when Jyana Reed/Ashara Dayne gave birth to Edric Dayne, they gave him to be raised at Starfall, as heir of Daynes. Because Reeds already had a male heir - Jojen, and also because Edric didn't looked like cranogman, so if he stayed at Graywater Watch, then someone could have figured out real identity of Howland's wife.

Wet nurse Wylla first went with Ned from Tower of Joy to Winterfell, then a few years later, when Edric was born, she brought him to Starfall, and became his wet nurse. That's why Edric said, that he and Jon are milk brothers. Wylla told him this. But he misinterpreted it, as her being Jon's mother, while actually, what she said, only meant, that previously she was Jon's wetnurse too.

1 hour ago, Ylath's Snout said:

Side-note Jaime not telling everyone what Aerys was planning never made much sense to me. It isn't like they wouldn't believe him.

Maybe that story is self-delusion. Jaime convinced himself, that him killing Aerys was necessary, and was an act of bravery. It is known, that prior the Sack of KL, Aerys was preparing lots of wild fire. Though only based on Jaime's words, it looked like Aerys was intending to burn entire city. But it may be a lie. Because why did after the Sack, Jaime has tracked all pyromancers, and killed them? Maybe because they were the only people left, aside from Jaime, that knew, that Aerys was preparing wild fire for defence of KL, not for burning the city. Also how did it happened, that Aerys was left tet-a-tet with Jaime? Where was other guards, servants?

So it seems to me, that it's more likely, that prior Tywin departed with his troops from Casterly Rock, he has sent a message to Jaime, and informed him about what he is planning to do, and what Jaime will have to do. Prior Tywin, with his main forces, has arrived to the gates, his people already has scaled the walls, got into the city, and then inside Red Keep. They killed Elia and her children, and then with Jaime's help lured and killed other people, that at that time were near Aerys. So when others, aside from Jaime, were gone, he attacked Aerys.

So Aerys didn't gave an order to burn KL. Jaime created that story, about him saving everyone, because he felt guilty, and this story helped him to feel better about himself. Though he didn't felt any guild immediately after death of Aerys and his family. Based on a scene, that Ned saw in a Throne room, it didn't looked like Jaime was feeling bad for what was done. Seems more likely, that after many years of people calling him a Kingslayer, he started to feel guilty, so his subconsciousness created for him that story, about him saving people of KL. 

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32 minutes ago, Megorova said:

I think, that when Jyana Reed/Ashara Dayne gave birth to Edric Dayne, they gave him to be raised at Starfall, as heir of Daynes. Because Reeds already had a male heir - Jojen, and also because Edric didn't looked like cranogman, so if he stayed at Graywater Watch, then someone could have figured out real identity of Howland's wife.

 

I have questions:

Why would the crannogmen even care who Lady Reed is? They live in an isolated community that they seldom leave and outsiders seldom visit. They probably wouldn't even care about Dorne or the Daynes it is so far removed from them.

Why would they care what their liege Lord's youngest son looked like?

Why raise Edric in ignorance of who his real parents are? It's not like Jon where he might literally be killed if the wrong person found out -- in this scenario Edric would be the son of two bannermen houses, so low stakes are not that high. Why would House Dayne even need Edric? They have Allyria to be the heir if need be... and given the state of the Riverlands they've probably already made that call, since little Ned was caught in the midst of it.

32 minutes ago, Megorova said:

Wylla told him this. But he misinterpreted it, as her being Jon's mother, while actually, what she said, only meant, that previously she was Jon's wetnurse too.

Then why would Edric retell the story that his "aunt" Ashara fell in love with Ned, rather than knowing the supposedly correct version of the story?

Here's the thing: I can understand why someone might make the argument that Howland was the man Ashara fell in love with, eventually ran away with him, assumed a new identity and gave birth to Meera and then later Jojen. It's a stretch but I can see where that idea is coming from based on what is in the books.

However, once you start introducing all this extra "family swap shop" and conspiracy theories about kids parents being different from what we're told, like The Order of the Green Hand do with pretty much every. single. one. of their theories that involves a baby or kids, that's when it all starts to fall apart. Again, the reason why the RLJ scenario works is because Jon's mother is already a mystery and the reason for keeping it a secret and raising Jon in ignorance makes sense -- Jon being Ashara's son does not, and neither does Edric being Howland's kid.

Edited by Faera

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1 hour ago, Megorova said:

Because Reeds already had a male heir - Jojen, and also because Edric didn't looked like cranogman, so if he stayed at Graywater Watch, then someone could have figured out real identity of Howland's wife.

Why would it matter if Ashara was married to Howland? There is no real reason for her to fake her death if all she did after that was move to the Neck.

1 hour ago, Megorova said:

So when others, aside from Jaime, were gone, he attacked Aerys.

Why kill Aerys like that? A "proper" trial could do so much more to discredit and humiliate Aerys. That seems like much more of a Tywin thing to do.

1 hour ago, Megorova said:

Based on a scene, that Ned saw in a Throne room, it didn't looked like Jaime was feeling bad for what was done.

That also fits with the "I just saved all of King's Landing" explanation. Not really great proof for some "Jaime didn't save KL"-theory.

Also there is the fact that it would make Jaime redemption storyline and all his conflicts about different oaths a sad mess of a joke.

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1 minute ago, Faera said:

Why would the crannogmen even care who Lady Reed is?

After the war, Howland arrives back home, and introduces to his people his wife Jyana, and their little daughter Meera. No one supposed to know that Ashara Dayne is alive. Thus no one knows, that Jyana is Ashara. And it's not about whether Howland's people care who she is, it's about keeping in secret, what really happened at the Tower of Joy. Ashara was there, with her newborn daughter, and wet nurse Wylla, that she brought there, in case if Lyanna will need help with her baby, or in case if Lyanna will die, or won't have milk. Then Howland and Ned killed Ashara's brother, so they had to be sure, that she will never reveal Jon's identity to anyone. They couldn't kill her, because they are not that sort of people, Especially because Ashara shortly prior events at TofJ, gave birth to Howland's child. Thus they decided to make up that story, about Ashara commiting suicide at Starfall, when Ned supposedly went there to give her Arthur's sword (while actually the sword now is hidden in crypts of Winterfell. Jon is Azor Ahai. Dawn sword of Dayne's is Azor Ahai's Lightbringer. So Jon had dreams about those crypts, because the sword was calling him.)  So, as long as nobody knows Jyana's real identity, they won't know Jon's secret.

15 minutes ago, Faera said:

Why would they care what their liege Lord's youngest son looked like?

Maybe they wouldn't have cared. But it's not like The Neck is a Twilight Zone, people occasionally do come there, when they go to The North, or south. And Edric doesn't look like a crannogman. So after finding out, that his father is Howland Reed, people will be interested who is the boy's mother. So they will pay unnecessary attention to Jyana. And eventually someone would have connected Jyana's violet eyes + Howland Reed + Dorne = Ashara Dayne. And then they will start wondering, why did Ashara Dayne pretending to be dead. And why is she posing as wife of Howland Reed, if he killed her brother. So eventually this information/rumors would have reached King's Landing and Robert. Most likely Robert knew, that there was nothing happening between Ned and Ashara at Harrenhal. Though he will still would have realised, that there's no way, that Ned doesn't know, that Howland's wife is Ashara Dayne. So if there was nothing between Ned and Ashara, then why is he hidding who she is. It was just a matter of time, between beginning of suspicions, and sending people to Starfall, or going there personally, to question Dayne's servants about circumstances of Ashara's death. And there was Wylla. Robert knew Wylla. He saw her at Winterfell, years ago, during Rebellion of Ironborn. It wouldn't be hard to make a connection from there - wet nurse of Eddard's bastard-son is from Starfall + Ashara Dayne, that is supposedly dead, is alive, and is married with Eddard's friend, Howland Reed + Howland killed Arthur Dayne at the Tower of Joy + Lyanna died at the Tower of Joy = Jon is Lyanna's child, and not Ned's. And then Robert would have executed all of them.

35 minutes ago, Faera said:

Why raise Edric in ignorance of who his real parents are?

He's supposed to be Lord of Starfall, so there's no need for him to know, that his father is Lord of Graywater Watch. Also, based on his name, Edric Ned Dayne, and him having good opinion about Eddard Stark, and him knowing about Wylla's past years at Winterfell, they haven't kept him completely ignorant. He knows, that Starks are not his enemies, even though they are supposedly killed Arthur Dayne, and caused Ashara Dayne to commit suicide.

40 minutes ago, Faera said:

Why would House Dayne even need Edric? They have Allyria to be the heir if need be

I think, that there's no Lord Dayne now at Starfall, that Arthur, Ashara and Allyria, either didn't had an older brother, or he died during Robert's Rebellion, or he was seriously ill, and had no children. Or Lord Dayne, that is supposedly Edric's father, is actually not brother of 3A, he is their father. So he's sort of too old to be Edric's father. The boy is actually child of Ashara, but Ashara's father was posing him as his own child. Ashara is older sister, so after Arthur's death, she is heiress of Daynes, and after her her children, and only then Allyria's children. Ashara's first child was a daughter, second child was a boy. But this boy (Jojen) is firstborn son of Howland Reed, thus he is Howland's heir. Then their second son is heir of his mother, and thus Lord of Starfall. If he will die, then Allyria will be heir of Daynes.

51 minutes ago, Faera said:

Then why would Edric retell the story that his "aunt" Ashara fell in love with Ned, rather than knowing the supposedly correct version of the story?

Probably aside from Ashara, Howland, Ned, Lyanna, Arthur and Rhaegar, nobody else knew, what really happened then at Harrenhal. So Edric doesn't know any other version, aside from this general misconception, known by others.

54 minutes ago, Faera said:

However, once you start introducing all this extra "family swap shop" and conspiracy theories about kids parents being different from what we're told, like The Order of the Green Hand do with pretty much every. single. one. of their theories that involves a baby or kids, that's when it all starts to fall apart. Again, the reason why the RLJ scenario works is because Jon's mother is already a mystery and the reason for keeping it a secret and raising Jon in ignorance makes sense -- Jon being Ashara's son does not, and neither does Edric being Howland's kid.

Why Wylla returned from Winterfell, and became Edric's wet nurse? Is there a shortage of wet nurses in Dorne? If he isn't connected to Howland and Eddard, and he is not Ashara's child, then why is his nickname is Ned? :huh:

Jojen was born in 286, at Greywater Watch, and Edric was born at Starfall, in 287. Though it is possible, that both of them were born at the end of 286, at Greywater Watch, and then Wylla has brought Edric to Starfall, and by that time it was already early 287, and then people in Daynes' household announced about birth of their new family member. Obviously, that at least Wylla knows, that the child's mother is Ashara, though this info should be kept secret. Also if there was Lord Dayne at Starfall in 287, then even Allyria probably doesn't know who are Edric's real parents.

Though it's just a theory. It could be totally wrong. Or not. We won't know until Jon will either meet Howland Reed, or will go down into crypts of Winterfell. Because if Dawn will really be there, then it will be a prove, that Ned didn't went to Starfall, to give the sword to Arthur's sister, and thus she didn't commited suicide at Starfall. This sword is a key piece in theory "Jyana is Ashara".

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1 hour ago, Ylath's Snout said:

Why would it matter if Ashara was married to Howland? There is no real reason for her to fake her death if all she did after that was move to the Neck.

:rolleyes:

It doesn't matter with whom she is married. What matters, is that she is alive.

Rhaegar kidnapped Lyanna. Rhaegar's wife was Elia Martell. And Ashara Dayne was Elia's lady-in-waiting.

Ashara's brother, Arthur, was with Rhaegar, when he kidnapped Lyanna, and at the Tower of Joy, when Lyanna died there.

If Ashara didn't played a disappearance act, after the war ended, then, most likely, she would've been brought to Robert, for "questioning". Did she knew about Rhaegar's plan to kidnap Lyanna? Did she knew where her brother was during Rebellion? Did Elia knew, where was her husband, during those events? Did Ashara knew, that Lyanna was at the Tower of Joy? How could she not know about it, if her brother was also there, and, considering, that the Tower of Joy is in the middle of nowhere, people, that were there, had to get delivery of food and other supplies to that tower. So from where would they request, whatever they needed? - Most likely, from Starfall. Thus in Robert's opinion, Ashara would have been guilty in Lyanna's death, and thus he would have executed her. 

1 hour ago, Ylath's Snout said:

Why kill Aerys like that? A "proper" trial could do so much more to discredit and humiliate Aerys. That seems like much more of a Tywin thing to do.

Jaime is a Trojan Horse.

In Tywin's opinion, Aerys has stolen Jaime from him. And Jaime betrayed his father, by becoming member of Kingsguard, and thru this act, rejected his father's legacy. So both of them (Aerys and Jaime) had to be punished, for what they did. Jaime, thru killing King Aerys, whom he swore to protect, and whom he once has chosen over his father, should prove his loyalty to Tywin. And Aerys should be punished by Tywin with Jaime's hands. It's this sort of thing - You stole him from ME, his FATHER, now he will kill you, because even though you are his King, I am his BLOOD, I am more important to him than you, I WON.

Who needs court? Court serve justice, while what Tywin wanted was revenge.

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