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Angel Eyes

Order of the Green Hand says Jon is Ned’s trueborn son with Ashara? I’m not sure...

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On 6/28/2018 at 9:08 PM, Angel Eyes said:

This theory by the Order of the Green Hand suggests that Ned and Ashara married and Jon is their son, making Ned’s children with Catelyn bastards because Ned needed their army, suggesting reasons why Brynden Blackfish and Hoster Tully had their biggest feud yet. 

Thoughts? 

This theory might be BS.

I've seen some of their videos, and they seem to be some of the biggest supporters of not wanting Jon to be Rhaegar and Lyanna's son. Don't they also have videos talking about how Arthur Dayne, Gerold Hightower, and Oswell Whent are alive? And another video talking about how fAegon is the real son of Rhaegar and Lyanna? 

I feel like there needs to be a plot point to Jon's parentage, for example if he was Ashara's son then he could be a candidate for the next Sword of the Morning and wielding Dawn, which some people have theorised is the real Lightbringer. Or if he is Rhaegar's son then he could be a dragonrider. If his parentage comes with no added plot points, then from a writers perspective what was the point in keeping it a secret?

I'd be fine with Jon being the son of Ned and Ashara, but I personally believe that he is Rhaegar and Lyanna's son. 

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2 minutes ago, Megorova said:

Thus in Robert's opinion, Ashara would have been guilty in Lyanna's death, and thus he would have executed her. 

Robert was very forgiving after the war. He let both the Martells and Tyrells remain in power. The only killings he was involved with was Elia and the children.

Also how would starving Lyanna have been better than letting her stay in the Tower of Joy well fed? If they couldn't keep her there she wouldn't have been let go. It isn't as if Robert killed every merchant that sold supplies to the Targ army.

Also

6 minutes ago, Megorova said:

It doesn't matter with whom she is married.

That would deffenetly matter. You can't kill a loyal bannermans wife for something that isn't a crime. If Ashara was lady Reed Ned would be in an even better position to argue her case against Robert if he had gone insane and decide to blame Ashara.

10 minutes ago, Megorova said:

Jaime is a Trojan Horse.

In Tywin's opinion, Aerys has stolen Jaime from him. And Jaime betrayed his father, by becoming member of Kingsguard, and thru this act, rejected his father's legacy. So both of them (Aerys and Jaime) had to be punished, for what they did. Jaime, thru killing King Aerys, whom he swore to protect, and whom he once has chosen over his father, should prove his loyalty to Tywin. And Aerys should be punished by Tywin with Jaime's hands. It's this sort of thing - You stole him from ME, his FATHER, now he will kill you, because even though you are his King, I am his BLOOD, I am more important to him than you, I WON.

There isn't a single shred of evidence for any this in the text.

11 minutes ago, Megorova said:

Who needs court? Court serve justice, while what Tywin wanted was revenge.

Killing the man you hate after ruining his reputation completely and letting everyone see how truly mad he was is IMHO much sweeter revenge. As an added bonus Tywon would get to build his reputation as the best hand ever if he manage to keep the kingdom peaceful and prosperous while dealing with a slathering madman like Aerys.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

1 hour ago, Megorova said:

Why Wylla returned from Winterfell, and became Edric's wet nurse? Is there a shortage of wet nurses in Dorne?

Jon outgrew the need for a wet nurse as some point and with no particular reason to stick around why not go home to Dorne instead of staying unemployed in the miserable North?
 

1 hour ago, Megorova said:

If he isn't connected to Howland and Eddard, and he is not Ashara's child, then why is his nickname is Ned? :huh:

Eddard did a  huge boon by returning Dawn to House Dayne instead of keeping it. Valyrian steel blade are priceless as proven by Tywin never managing to buy one. Dawn is even more valuable both because of its legacy and because it is one of a kind.

Gratitude for that alone is enough to motivate the nickname Ned.

1 hour ago, Megorova said:

So after finding out, that his father is Howland Reed, people will be interested who is the boy's mother. So they will pay unnecessary attention to Jyana. And eventually someone would have connected Jyana's violet eyes + Howland Reed + Dorne = Ashara Dayne.

That is a crazy leap in (ill)logic. It isn't as if only the Targs and Dayne have silver hair in all of Planetos. IF Ashara had to fake her death then just say she is from Essos or something if anyone asks.

1 hour ago, Megorova said:

It wouldn't be hard to make a connection from there - wet nurse of Eddard's bastard-son is from Starfall + Ashara Dayne, that is supposedly dead, is alive, and is married with Eddard's friend, Howland Reed + Howland killed Arthur Dayne at the Tower of Joy + Lyanna died at the Tower of Joy = Jon is Lyanna's child, and not Ned's. And then Robert would have executed all of them.

How does any of that follow logically?

Robert has known for all of Jon's life that Ned was at the Tower of Joy and he never jumped to that conclusion before. Reed marrying Dayne might be a bit odd but just say it was a love match and that they are trying to move on from the war if they need an excuse. IF Ashara is lady Reed faking her own death is frankly pointless.

1 hour ago, Megorova said:

Then Howland and Ned killed Ashara's brother, so they had to be sure, that she will never reveal Jon's identity to anyone. They couldn't kill her, because they are not that sort of people, Especially because Ashara shortly prior events at TofJ, gave birth to Howland's child. Thus they decided to make up that story, about Ashara commiting suicide at Starfall

She could have revealed the whole thing even if they faked her death. Plenty of people in King's Landing could still recognize her and the fact the Ned and Howland kept her hidden would just cast more suspicion on her.

Either Ashara was fine with keeping R+L=J secret in with case she could openly marry Howland and raise their kids together. OR she wanted to tell, in with case Ned has let Howland keep her as a sex-slave in Greywater Watch!?!?

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21 minutes ago, Ylath's Snout said:

Eddard did a  huge boon by returning Dawn to House Dayne instead of keeping it. Valyrian steel blade are priceless as proven by Tywin never managing to buy one. Dawn is even more valuable both because of its legacy and because it is one of a kind.

Dawn is not Valyrian steel. It predates Valyria by several thousands years.

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Just now, Megorova said:

Dawn is not Valyrian steel. It predates Valyria by several thousands years.

Yes, I never said it was. But if the rare but still more common Valyrian blade literally can't be bought for all the gold in the Rock then just imagine how much more valuable a blade like Dawn is.

Thus showing what a huge favor Ned did by returning it to House Dayne.

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There isn't one single explanation for the secrecy around Jon's parentage that makes any sense. That's it in a nutshell, as @Risto pointed out early on in the discussion. And that applies to Ashara as the mum. And not just the secrecy in general but especially Ned keeping the truth from Cat. And that's how the preposterous notion that Ned and Ashara married before Ned married Cat was born... it's a(n) [very feeble] attempt at trying to explain Ned keeping it from everyone but above all Cat. 

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@Megorova That's a lot of speculation for me to take in and is exactly the issue I have with TOotGH. Speculation is fine but not when you have next to nothing to prop it up.

What evidence is there that Ashara was there with Lyanna "in case she needed help with her baby"? Especially when she has her own newborn with her! I'd need a proper quote to back that up. "They" found Ned and GRRM saying Ashara wasn't nailed to the floor at Starfall doesn't mean she was physically at the Tower of Joy. If anything, it conflicts with the notion that Ned then returned to Starfall to return Dawn to Ashara.

Why would Ashara need to even fake her death? I'm sorry but the way you make it sound it's almost as if you're saying Ashara was forced into going with them and taking on a new identity. If that's the case, how could they be sure she wouldn't run away on the long journey back North? No one alive would have necessarily known she was even there at the ToJ, which I don't see any evidence to say she was either. Are you saying that they were worried Ashara would be captured and tortured for the information? All she had to do is say, "Welp, I'm leaving with Howland and Meera now. Bye!" and that would be it. She'd still be in the Neck, living as Howland's wife and not being bothered by anyone. Ashara could have run off with Howland, gone to live in the Neck and still chosen to keep her mouth shut like Ned and Howland both have all these years.

As for the risk of people seeing her or Edric and blowing the case wide open. I doubt it. The Neck is massive and most of it hard to navigate and dangerous to traverse unless you know the land as the crannogmen do. We see how difficult it is to make contact with Howland Reed in Catelyn's chapters and in Bran's chapters we learn how dangerous the Neck is if you wander off the path. This is reinforced in one of Jaime's chapters, and we see how territorial the crannogmen are in one of Theon's chapters.

So, yeah, it might not be the Twilight Zone but people don't just "visit" the Neck to see Howland and the vast majority of people never get close to Greywater Watch where presumably Ashara and Edric would supposedly be. If Howland doesn't want to be found, he won't be found.

2 hours ago, Megorova said:

And Edric doesn't look like a crannogman.

How do we know that? The only characteristic we know for sure about the crannogmen is finely built and small. We've never been told that Edric is particularly short or tall either way. No reason there isn't the odd blond one with blue eyes isn't running around, or even "almost purple" because one feature they do like is weird eye colours...

3 hours ago, Ylath's Snout said:

Why would it matter if Ashara was married to Howland? There is no real reason for her to fake her death if all she did after that was move to the Neck.

This is exactly where the AD = JR hits a brick wall.

As I said before, I could just about swallow Howland/Ashara falling in love and running away with each other but the fake suicide makes no sense if the only reason was supposedly keeping her mouth shut and moving to the Neck. She could do that as Ashara Dayne and no one would ever reach her again once she was in the Neck.

Hiding Jon's secret is not a good enough reason to fake her death if she's just going to travel back to the North with Howland anyway. I mean, he didn't have to fake his death and assume a new identity so why should she?

To fake her own death, Ashara would have needed a bloody good reason to burn all her bridges before disappearing. Whether she went with Howland to have babies in the Neck or live on a barge with (f)Aegon for seventeen years, I'm inclined to believe it would have been more about leaving the scandal or mess of her life behind and start over more than these numerous "hide the baby" plots. :dunno:

Sadly, the more I think about it, the more it seems much easier to concede she probably really did just kill herself.

Edited by Faera

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9 minutes ago, Faera said:

I'm inclined to believe it would have been more about leaving the scandal or mess of her life behind and start over more than these numerous "hide the baby" plots. :dunno:

Not the she would need to fake her death for that. Moving to Essos Would get her away from all of that just fine so...

11 minutes ago, Faera said:

Sadly, the more I think about it, the more it seems much easier to concede she probably really did just kill herself.

...might just be right.

 

12 minutes ago, Faera said:

Speculation is fine but not when you have next to nothing to prop it up.

Mmmhmm :agree:

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10 minutes ago, Ylath's Snout said:

Not the she would need to fake her death for that. Moving to Essos Would get her away from all of that just fine so...

Just so. And that is one of the reasons why, if Ashara is alive, there's a good chance she is Quaithe IMO. 

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13 minutes ago, Ylath's Snout said:

Not the she would need to fake her death for that. Moving to Essos Would get her away from all of that just fine so...

It all depends what she knew. She was one of Elia's maids, we know Rhaegar and Arthur were close, after all he was one of three in ToJ. If Ashara knew what she knew, about Lyanna, Rhaegar and Jon, and if Ned needed absolute secrecy, she might have felt that faking her death is the best choice. She would then disappear for good and the secret that could bring another war would be kept between Ned and Howland. 

7 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

Just so. And that is one of the reasons why, if Ashara is alive, there's a good chance she is Quaithe IMO. 

There might be a good chance, yes, but I would need a bit more to connect these two. Symbolically, shadowbinder from Asshai and a Dayne to be one person would be, a bit thematically inconsistent but not out of reach.

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1 hour ago, EloImFizzy said:

I've seen some of their videos, and they seem to be some of the biggest supporters of not wanting Jon to be Rhaegar and Lyanna's son. Don't they also have videos talking about how Arthur Dayne, Gerold Hightower, and Oswell Whent are alive? And another video talking about how fAegon is the real son of Rhaegar and Lyanna? 

I feel like there needs to be a plot point to Jon's parentage, for example if he was Ashara's son then he could be a candidate for the next Sword of the Morning and wielding Dawn, which some people have theorised is the real Lightbringer. Or if he is Rhaegar's son then he could be a dragonrider. If his parentage comes with no added plot points, then from a writers perspective what was the point in keeping it a secret?

I'd be fine with Jon being the son of Ned and Ashara, but I personally believe that he is Rhaegar and Lyanna's son. 

They also really like to bash Catelyn. They have a five-part series on why she’s a psychopath. As far as who Jon’s parentage is, right now he’s just Jon. I’m not even sure if he’s Rhaegar and Lyanna’s son since he hasn’t shown the resistance to fire. 

This is why we need the series finished, otherwise we have theories like this.

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3 minutes ago, Angel Eyes said:

I’m not even sure if he’s Rhaegar and Lyanna’s son since he hasn’t shown the resistance to fire.

Targaryens are not fireproof, fire resistant or whatever phrase is used these days. Actually quite a lot of Targs have been killed by fire.

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1 minute ago, Risto said:

if Ned needed absolute secrecy, she might have felt that faking her death is the best choice. She would then disappear for good and the secret that could bring another war would be kept between Ned and Howland

Are you saying she faked her death to escape from Ned?

There is no mention of Robert harassing the other Daynes for info on the Tower of Joy after Lyanna died so I don't think Ashara would be singled out either. After all the connection Arthur Dayne -> House Dayne is much more direct than Ashara Dayne -> Elia Martell -> Rhaegar when it comes to  investigating the Tower of Joy.

1 minute ago, Risto said:

Targaryens are not fireproof, fire resistant or whatever phrase is used these days. Actually quite a lot of Targs have been killed by fire.

I was just about to point this out.

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3 minutes ago, Risto said:

Targaryens are not fireproof, fire resistant or whatever phrase is used these days. Actually quite a lot of Targs have been killed by fire.

And then there’s Daenerys.

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7 minutes ago, Angel Eyes said:

And then there’s Daenerys.

If anything that would indicate that Dany isn't a real Targ as non of the historically known Targs were fireproof. Just look as Viserys or everyone that burned to death at Summerhall.

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10 minutes ago, Angel Eyes said:

And then there’s Daenerys.

Meaning? 

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Just now, Ylath's Snout said:

If anything that would indicate that Dany isn't a real Targ as non of the historically known Targs were fireproof. Just look as Viserys or everyone that burned to death at Summerhall.

Aerion Brightflame. Someone's sig (sorry don't remember who is the poster) reads:

"Aerion Brightflame, not so bright after all". :lol: 

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1 minute ago, kissdbyfire said:

Aerion Brightflame

Gods, I feel like that nut job all by himself call the idea that Targs should be allowed to rule over anything at all into question.

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18 minutes ago, Angel Eyes said:

And then there’s Daenerys.

GRRM has already explained that even she isn't fireproof -- she just had magic on her side with Drogo's funeral pyre.

4 minutes ago, Ylath's Snout said:

Gods, I feel like that nut job all by himself call the idea that Targs should be allowed to rule over anything at all into question.

The gods flip a coin and the world holds its breath, indeed. :P

23 minutes ago, Ylath's Snout said:

There is no mention of Robert harassing the other Daynes for info on the Tower of Joy after Lyanna died so I don't think Ashara would be singled out either. After all the connection Arthur Dayne -> House Dayne is much more direct than Ashara Dayne -> Elia Martell -> Rhaegar when it comes to  investigating the Tower of Joy.

It's not even clear just how much Robert knew about what happened at the ToJ anyway. Once the place was dismantled and the bodies were buried, Ned and Howland could spin any story they wanted. So, if they wanted to keep Ashara out of it they needn't have mentioned her or the Daynes outside of Arthur's death. 

 

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39 minutes ago, Angel Eyes said:

And then there’s Daenerys.

Per Martin, her surviving the pyre during which dragons were born was one-time magical event. Dany is not fireproof, no more than any Targ in history.

 

43 minutes ago, Ylath's Snout said:

Are you saying she faked her death to escape from Ned?

No, just to make sure the secret would be kept secret.

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