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Angel Eyes

Order of the Green Hand says Jon is Ned’s trueborn son with Ashara? I’m not sure...

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2 hours ago, Angel Eyes said:

They also really like to bash Catelyn. They have a five-part series on why she’s a psychopath. As far as who Jon’s parentage is, right now he’s just Jon. I’m not even sure if he’s Rhaegar and Lyanna’s son since he hasn’t shown the resistance to fire. 

This is why we need the series finished, otherwise we have theories like this.

Yeah I noticed that too. I don't particularity like Catelyn, but I think I'd really struggle to create 5 videos of content talking about how much I dislike her. xD

As far the the fire resistance thing goes, to be fair Targaryens aren't fireproof either. Daenerys survived the flames because of a very powerful blood sacrifice. At the very most they are more heat resistant in the fact that they can take hotter baths than most people. 

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Well I have long been a supporter of this theory, because of the number of times Ashara is mentioned in the early stories. i feel that Ashara is certainly the mother of someone important - Jon or Dany. Certainly Catelyn suspects Ashara is Jon's mother.

 

My theory - posted before is that Jon is the child of Ashara and Ned married under a weirwood tree according to the old rites.

Ned arrived at Riverrun to discover Catelyn pregnant via Brandon.  He has little choice BUT to marry her but in this case under the rites of the seven.

Conceivably Ned believed Ashara dead when he married Catelyn.  He certainly would not know of Jon's existence.

This makes sense because we know that Brandon was the sort of guy to want to get in quickly with Catelyn and that the Tully girls were not well chaperoned. Perhaps the night Cat begged for Petyr's life was the night.  

It also explains why Ned married Catelyn, when we sort of know he was enamoured with Ashara. Now Ned would see Robb as being a rightful heir to Winterfell, since he was always in his brother's shadow.

Now depending upon when/if Ashara died none of the later children would be bastards under the law of Westeros especially if Ned "remarried" Catelyn, perhaps as some sort of "Northern" ceremony.

Finally of course we do not know if polygamy is accepted in the North or not.  Everything we know of the North suggests that marriage arrangements are a little flexible - eg the Mormant girls, and of course everyone beyond the wall. Craster marries all his daughter/wives. 

I think that ONLY those governed by the Sept are bound by the westerosi laws

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I'm fully convinced that there is a baby swap in here somewhere among all these Jon/Dany/Aegon parentage theories. 

I believe the purpose of Young Griff/Aegon whether his story legit or not, is partly to introduce to the reader the concept and practicalities of baby swapping being a possibility. There are other subtle hints in the story as well, such as when Cersei thinks about her and Jaime being very difficult to tell apart when they were very young, I think the point of this is to show the reader that a baby could be swapped without people noticing. 

Edited by Stuart Littlefinger

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I like this theory.  Ashara make sense as the mother of Jon Snow.  Lyanna's child is Aegon.  Ned forced Ashara to give up her child and raise another.  Jon does the same thing when he forced Gillie to give up her baby and raise another.

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1 hour ago, Luddsthirdmorph said:

Ned arrived at Riverrun to discover Catelyn pregnant via Brandon.  He has little choice BUT to marry her but in this case under the rites of the seven.

 

I really don't understand where this whole Brandon fathering Robb thing came from. :wacko: Catelyn would have had to have been pregnant with Robb for well over a year if that was true. By the time Ned or anyone else would have seen her in that double wedding with Lysa she would have been showing big time. Frankly, if she had "pulled a Lysa" Hoster would have made her abort that baby just like he did with Lysa.

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1 hour ago, Luddsthirdmorph said:

Ned arrived at Riverrun to discover Catelyn pregnant via Brandon.  He has little choice BUT to marry her but in this case under the rites of the seven.

Where is it hinted at that Cat isn't a virgin at her marriage?

1 hour ago, Luddsthirdmorph said:

Conceivably Ned believed Ashara dead when he married Catelyn.  He certainly would not know of Jon's existence.

Impossible, Ned married Cat at the start of the Rebellion and Ashara killed herself after all the fighting was over.

1 hour ago, Luddsthirdmorph said:

This makes sense because we know that Brandon was the sort of guy to want to get in quickly with Catelyn and that the Tully girls were not well chaperoned. Perhaps the night Cat begged for Petyr's life was the night.

Or she could have acted like a proper lady. That is just a much proof in the text for that.

1 hour ago, Luddsthirdmorph said:

It also explains why Ned married Catelyn, when we sort of know he was enamoured with Ashara.

Ned wouldn't get to marry for love. He is part of the nobility were marriage are meant to seal alliances and ensure loyalties. Nothing about Ned's character hints that he would go behind his fathers back to marry without lord Rickards permission.

 Lust and love are for whores and paramours.

1 hour ago, Luddsthirdmorph said:

Finally of course we do not know if polygamy is accepted in the North or not.  Everything we know of the North suggests that marriage arrangements are a little flexible - eg the Mormant girls, and of course everyone beyond the wall. Craster marries all his daughter/wives. 

Everyone including the Free Folk consider Craster a freak so that a pretty horrible example. Also is is clear that that are great culture differences between Northerners and Free Folk: Stealing a wife and raiding are both crimes in the North while Wildlings do it all the time.

The only kingdom in Westeros that practise polygamy is the Iron Islands. I really don't think that Ned would like that ape their culture.

1 hour ago, Luddsthirdmorph said:

I think that ONLY those governed by the Sept are bound by the westerosi laws

That is clearly not the case. Sure the North is different from the Andal kingdoms in the south but that doesn't mean they are the same as the Free Folk. Marriages in the North are arranged by heads of Houses not by kidnapping women. Stealing and badity are crimes not a pass time etcetera.

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1 hour ago, Stuart Littlefinger said:

I believe the purpose of Young Griff/Aegon whether his story legit or not, is partly to introduce to the reader the concept and practicalities of baby swapping being a possibility.

Why would he need to foreshadow that? 

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24 minutes ago, The Pink Letter said:

  Ashara make sense as the mother of Jon Snow.  Lyanna's child is Aegon.  Ned forced Ashara to give up her child and raise another.  Jon does the same thing when he forced Gillie to give up her baby and raise another.

Why would he need to do all of that? Having a silver-hair child isn't something exclusive to the Targ and Dayne bloodline.

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2 hours ago, Luddsthirdmorph said:

It also explains why Ned married Catelyn, when we sort of know he was enamoured with Ashara. 

Erhm. No, we don't know that. We only know that Ashara danced w/ several men at the feast, including Ned but only after Brandon asked her to.

ASoS, Bran II

The crannogman saw a maid with laughing purple eyes dance with a white sword, a red snake, and the lord of griffins, and lastly with the quiet wolf . . . but only after the wild wolf spoke to her on behalf of a brother too shy to leave his bench.

IMO that hints to Brandon being the Stark Ashara had a thing with; Ned was too shy and Brandon asks Ashara to dance w/ him so he joins the festivities instead of sitting around moping the whole evening. 

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12 hours ago, kissdbyfire said:

Just so. And that is one of the reasons why, if Ashara is alive, there's a good chance she is Quaithe IMO. 

Quaithe is Shiera Seastar, and the 3EC.

Jyana Reed is Ashara Dayne.

Septa Lemore is Jayne Swann.

12 hours ago, Risto said:

It all depends what she knew. She was one of Elia's maids, we know Rhaegar and Arthur were close, after all he was one of three in ToJ. If Ashara knew what she knew, about Lyanna, Rhaegar and Jon, and if Ned needed absolute secrecy, she might have felt that faking her death is the best choice. She would then disappear for good and the secret that could bring another war would be kept between Ned and Howland. 

Thank you! At least someone else, besides me, is also able to see the possibility. It was too dangerous for Ashara to stay alive, so she had to disappear. After Rhaegar kidnapped Lyanna at Harrenhal, they had to go somewhere. It's obvious, that they haven't spent those  months (between kidnapping and Rhaegar's return to KL) at the Tower of Joy. And after they departed from Harrenhal, Arthur Dayne was with them. So most likely, they went to Starfall. That's when Lyanna and Ashara became friends. After Lyanna's death, Ashara even took new name similar to her friend's - Lyanna - Jyana. If Ashara didn't died, it's more than likely, that eventually Robert would have summoned her for questioning. Because Rhaegar, Lyanna and Arthur had to go somewhere after Harrenhal, and where else would they go, if not to Starfall? And Ashara is not Varys or Littlefinger, she wouldn't have been able to convincingly lie to Robert. So for her own safety, Ned and Howland helped her to disappear.

12 hours ago, Ylath's Snout said:

There is no mention of Robert harassing the other Daynes for info on the Tower of Joy after Lyanna died

The other remaining Dayne was 5-6 years old Allyria. Obviously, that she knew nothing, and couldn't be held responsible for what her brother did. So after Ashara was gone, the rest from her household were safe.

I doubt, that there's another Lord Dayne at Starfall. Because if Edric's father is brother of Arthur and Ashara, then why is his name is unknown? Why there's no any information about what Dayne family did during Robert's Rebellion?

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1 hour ago, kissdbyfire said:

IMO that hints to Brandon being the Stark Ashara had a thing with; Ned was too shy and Brandon asks Ashara to dance w/ him so he joins the festivities instead of sitting around moping the whole evening. 

Exactly, I would be truly surprised that it was Ned the one who slept with Ashara. My money is on Brandon.

Plus the fact that Barristan in ADWD said Stark... If there is no need for secrecy regarding it, why would author use "Stark" instead of "Ned Stark"

10 minutes ago, Megorova said:

Thank you! At least someone else, besides me, is also able to see the possibility. It was too dangerous for Ashara to stay alive, so she had to disappear. After Rhaegar kidnapped Lyanna at Harrenhal, they had to go somewhere. It's obvious, that they haven't spent those  months (between kidnapping and Rhaegar's return to KL) at the Tower of Joy. And after they departed from Harrenhal, Arthur Dayne was with them. So most likely, they went to Starfall. That's when Lyanna and Ashara became friends. After Lyanna's death, Ashara even took new name similar to her friend's - Lyanna - Jyana. If Ashara didn't died, it's more than likely, that eventually Robert would have summoned her for questioning. Because Rhaegar, Lyanna and Arthur had to go somewhere after Harrenhal, and where else would they go, if not to Starfall? And Ashara is not Varys or Littlefinger, she wouldn't have been able to convincingly lie to Robert. So for her own safety, Ned and Howland helped her to disappear.

I wouldn't go that far as you did, but I do think it is possible that Ashara went into hiding due to things she knew. 

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14 hours ago, Ylath's Snout said:

Not the she would need to fake her death for that. Moving to Essos Would get her away from all of that just fine so...

14 hours ago, Faera said:

Sadly, the more I think about it, the more it seems much easier to concede she probably really did just kill herself.

...might just be right.

As would moving to the Neck. So, unless people can justify why Ashara had to fake her death to go raise a baby on a barge, make out with Howland in Greywater Watch, or become a Shadowbinder in Asshai then I am on team "She Died". Hiding Jon's secret just doesn't cut it for me. If Howland can keep his mouth shut, so can Ashara and whoever else might have been witness.

2 hours ago, kissdbyfire said:

Erhm. No, we don't know that. We only know that Ashara danced w/ several men at the feast, including Ned but only after Brandon asked her to.

ASoS, Bran II

The crannogman saw a maid with laughing purple eyes dance with a white sword, a red snake, and the lord of griffins, and lastly with the quiet wolf . . . but only after the wild wolf spoke to her on behalf of a brother too shy to leave his bench.

IMO that hints to Brandon being the Stark Ashara had a thing with; Ned was too shy and Brandon asks Ashara to dance w/ him so he joins the festivities instead of sitting around moping the whole evening. 

Exactly. Ned was just one of many men she interacted with and that was just one dayLikewise, my money is on Brandon Stark dishonoured her.

As said previously on numerous threads, numerous times -- the "usual suspects" (Jon, Meera, Dany etc.) are all too young to be a baby conceived at Harrenhal. Even if someone wanted to argue one of the "dorks" got the hot girl in the end, they didn't father their respective "rebellion boom" baby at Harrenhal - if they had the baby would have been born in 282, not 283 (or 4 in Dany's case). I'm not against Ned having had a crush on Ashara or maybe even having planning to marry her to save her honour after Brandon ruined her (seeing as he was a second son and didn't know Brandon was going to get himself killed) because that seems like a very Ned thing to do. It's this notion that they knocked boots, had Jon and secretly got married that hurts my head with how many sharks it jumps.

23 hours ago, Widow's Watch said:

I find YouTubers like the OoftheGH do a lot of harm to the story being told.

I'll be frank -- I'm not the biggest fan of Catelyn (I don't hate her, she's just "least best" in my books). However, having watched all of TOotGH's library of work, I cannot help taking anything they have to say on this subject with a pinch of salt. To do a proper analysis, you need to be objective about certain characters, and I find it hard to believe that they are able to look past their dislike of Cat, so, this idea that her being a "fake wife" and "mother of bastards" being some sort of karmic justice for being cold towards Jon. 

53 minutes ago, Risto said:

If there is no need for secrecy regarding it, why would author use "Stark" instead of "Ned Stark"

True. Barristan always seemed pleasant and amiable towards Ned, calling him "Lord Eddard" and answering his questions politely. The distancing way he said "Stark" really makes me think he's referring to someone other than Ned.

1 hour ago, Megorova said:

I doubt, that there's another Lord Dayne at Starfall. Because if Edric's father is brother of Arthur and Ashara, then why is his name is unknown? Why there's no any information about what Dayne family did during Robert's Rebellion?

Because GRRM hasn't released that information yet? :rolleyes:

We don't know what a lot of families were doing during the Rebellion - doesn't mean that they have a fake son.

If there "never was" another Lord of Starfall then that means Ashara was the heir, given Arthur was in the Kingsguard. In fact, had the eldest Dayne sibling never existed then they probably wouldn't have let Arthur join the Kingsguard because then he would have been the eldest and heir.

So, I don't see them lying about an eldest Dayne who was Edric's dad because such a lie wouldn't make sense because, then, who the hell would they be fooling when Edric turned up? :blink: 

1 hour ago, Megorova said:

After Lyanna's death, Ashara even took new name similar to her friend's - Lyanna - Jyana. If Ashara didn't died, it's more than likely, that eventually Robert would have summoned her for questioning. Because Rhaegar, Lyanna and Arthur had to go somewhere after Harrenhal, and where else would they go, if not to Starfall? And Ashara is not Varys or Littlefinger, she wouldn't have been able to convincingly lie to Robert. So for her own safety, Ned and Howland helped her to disappear.

As I've said before the official version is what Ned and Howland decided it would be so, if she was there, they could just say she totally wasn't there. Even if they admitted she was, she only needed to have regurgitated the same story Howland did. End of. Robert has no reason to question it if all of them are spinning the same thread.

Besides, how do you know Ashara wouldn't have been able to convincingly lie? Nearly every single survival plot line revolves around her pretending to be someone else for 14+ years! :lol:

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1 hour ago, Megorova said:

Because if Edric's father is brother of Arthur and Ashara, then why is his name is unknown? Why there's no any information about what Dayne family did during Robert's Rebellion?

Frankly the Daynes are a pretty minor faction. Us not having a complete family tree of some Ned or Brandon might have had something with before the rebellion isn't some great obfuscation. 

1 hour ago, Megorova said:

After Rhaegar kidnapped Lyanna at Harrenhal, they had to go somewhere. It's obvious, that they haven't spent those  months (between kidnapping and Rhaegar's return to KL) at the Tower of Joy.

Why couldn't they have taken Lyanna directly to the Tower of Joy? It is isolated and would minimize the risk that anyone learn were she was. If she stayed at Starfall a passing traveler or talkative servant would have spilled the beans on were Lyanna was being held. That sort of information would have resulted in a large bounty if  it was delivered to Robert.

You want to see a Lyanna Ashara friendship that just isn't in the text.

1 hour ago, Megorova said:

If Ashara didn't died, it's more than likely, that eventually Robert would have summoned her for questioning. Because Rhaegar, Lyanna and Arthur had to go somewhere after Harrenhal, and where else would they go, if not to Starfall?

Why Starfall specifically? There are more places in Dorne that just Sunspear, the Tower of Joy and Starfall. I don't see why the Dayne in particular would be more okay with the public shaming of Elia that the whole Rhaegar + Lyanna affair was than any other Dornish house.

Also keeping Lyanna as a guest would hardly be a crime, especially if they were ordered to by a prince. If the Daynes would have wanted to resist Rhaegar the were surrounded they Targ loyalists on all sides.

1 hour ago, Megorova said:

And Ashara is not Varys or Littlefinger, she wouldn't have been able to convincingly lie to Robert.

Ned isn't Varys or Littlefinger but he had Robert fooled for all those years. No reason to believe Ashara couldn't say "Lyanna had a miscarriage" and then keep her gob shut.

Edited by Ylath's Snout

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6 minutes ago, Faera said:

I'll be frank -- I'm not the biggest fan of Catelyn (I don't hate her, she's just "least best" in my books). However, having watched all of TOotGH's library of work, I cannot help taking anything they have to say on this subject with a pinch of salt. To do a proper analysis, you need to be objective about certain characters, and I find it hard to believe that they are able to look past their dislike of Cat, so, this idea that her being a "fake wife" and "mother of bastards" being some sort of karmic justice for being cold towards Jon. 

I'm not a fan of Catelyn either. But I can still look at her objectively. Of course, once that's done, I do go back to hating her guts. 

I find a lot of the hate is tied to wishful thinking and headcanon that has been taken way too far (and it's not just them in this), and having the absolute gall to say that the author made mistakes in his writing because he doesn't really pay attention to the math or whatever other excuses just takes the cake. It's pretty insulting to the writer and all the hard work he put in his story.

If a person can't justify why Ned refused to tell Jon who any of these proposed mothers are, (Wylla, the fisherman's daughter, Ashara), then I don't think there's much left to talk about. 

House Dayne isn't just an ancient House, they also have a proud legacy tied to their name. Jon would eat this up with a spoon and ask for seconds. 

Maybe Ned didn't want to tell Jon more lies than he already had. But it's just a shot in the dark. :dunno:

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2 hours ago, Widow's Watch said:

Maybe Ned didn't want to tell Jon more lies than he already had. But it's just a shot in the dark. :dunno:

I just can't get passed the idea that Ned would have allowed his son to join the Night's Watch when he could have sent him to live with his relatives in Dorne instead when Catelyn insisted he couldn't stay in Winterfell. Never would there have been a better time for Ned to sit Jon down and tell him his mother was Ashara Dayne and arrange for him to go to them instead. Like you said, Jon would have eaten that up because it matches every fantasy he's ever had and would have given him a sense of pride...

So, definitely not Ashara. I'd say Wylla or Fisherman's Daughter are more likely, and I don't believe them either.

2 hours ago, Widow's Watch said:

I find a lot of the hate is tied to wishful thinking and headcanon that has been taken way too far (and it's not just them in this), and having the absolute gall to say that the author made mistakes in his writing because he doesn't really pay attention to the math or whatever other excuses just takes the cake. It's pretty insulting to the writer and all the hard work he put in his story.

 :agree:

2 hours ago, Widow's Watch said:

I'm not a fan of Catelyn either. But I can still look at her objectively. Of course, once that's done, I do go back to hating her guts. 

Same here. I'll give credit where credit is due - doesn't mean I have to like her. ;)

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4 hours ago, Megorova said:

Quaithe is Shiera Seastar, and the 3EC

For the record, I mean this humorously.

That said, and shamelessly stealing from @The Weirwoods Eyes...

Fuck this shit! Brynden 'Bloodraven' Rivers is the 3EC, get over it. 

 

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I recently had an epiphany regarding Ashara Dayne. She isn't important! 

Ashara's only purpose in the story is to provide a red herring for Jon's mother. She is only actually mentioned 6 times in the whole story, and each occasion is there to facilitate a smoke screen for R+L=J. And then finally to allow the reader to see through that smoke screen.  We've even had the beginning, the middle, and the end of her story already. 

 

mention #1:  AGOT Catelyn II

Quote

They whispered of Ser Arthur Dayne, the Sword of the Morning, deadliest of the seven knights of Aerys's Kingsguard, and of how their young lord had slain him in single combat. And they told how afterward Ned had carried Ser Arthur's sword back to the beautiful young sister who awaited him in a castle called Starfall on the shores of the Summer Sea. The Lady Ashara Dayne, tall and fair, with haunting violet eyes. It had taken her a fortnight to marshal her courage, but finally, in bed one night, Catelyn had asked her husband the truth of it, asked him to his face.

This sets Ashara up as a possible mother for Jon Snow. At this point we don't know anything about the timeline in order to understand how difficult it would have been for Ned to meet up with Ashara at the right time for Jon's conception. It's a basic introduction and she's introduced to us specifically in relation to Jon. 

mention #2: AGOT Eddard XII

Quote

Who was the mother, I wonder? Some Dornish peasant you raped while her holdfast burned? A whore? Or was it the grieving sister, the Lady Ashara? She threw herself into the sea, I'm told. Why was that? For the brother you slew, or the child you stole? 

Again this is in relation to her as a possible mother for Jon. Again we're in the first book the author is trying to establish the red herring in order to assist the concealment of Lyanna & Rhaegar as his parents.  And Again we don't yet know that Cersei was not in a position back in the early  280's to know what Ned's relationship was to Ashara and is going on pure rumour. 

mention #3: ACOK Catleyn VI

Quote

They were uncomfortable thoughts, and futile. If Jon had been born of Ashara Dayne of Starfall, as some whispered, the lady was long dead; if not, Catelyn had no clue who or where his mother might be.

This is in relation to the Baratheon children all being Lannister Blonde. GRRM is using this as an opportunity to place Jon's parentage in proximity to other secret heritages. And simultaneously reminding us of Ashara as a possible mother for him, dangling that red herring. But it is also a clue that Jon isn't even Neds son, she talks about non of her sons taking after Ned she is talking on the back of a discussion about other children not being fathered by the man we were told fathered them, and implies that Ned has never been known to be connected to any woman other than this rumour about Ashara so really if it wasn't her then maybe that's because it wasn't Ned?  

mention #4: ASOS Bran II

Quote

The crannogman saw a maid with laughing purple eyes dance with a white sword, a red snake, and the lord of griffins, and lastly with the quiet wolf . . . but only after the wild wolf spoke to her on behalf of a brother too shy to leave his bench.

This one appears at first glance to be more fuel to the rumour and will for most readers continue the idea that Ashara was Jon's mother until ADWD when we learn a little more of Brandon Stark.  What GRRM is really showing us is that Ashara danced with Ned as a favour to Brandon, meaning she wanted him to like her, and that Ned was not interested in Ashara himself enough to ask her to dance. 

mention #5: ASOS Arya VIII

Quote

He looked at her uncomfortably. "My aunt Allyria says Lady Ashara and your father fell in love at Harrenhal—"

Ned Dayne to Arya, this conversation appears on the surface to reinforce her as a candidate but when you think it through it does the opposite. He tells this garbled tale that really seems highly unlikely and which his very name belies. If Ned did the dirty of Ashara with Wyla would they name Ned Dayne for him? Would they fuck. 

mention #5: ASOS Arya VIII

Quote

"Aye, he told me. Lady Ashara Dayne. It's an old tale, that one. I heard it once at Winterfell, when I was no older than you are now." He took hold of her bridle firmly and turned her horse around. "I doubt there's any truth to it. But if there is, what of it? When Ned met this Dornish lady, his brother Brandon was still alive, and it was him betrothed to Lady Catelyn, so there's no stain on your father's honor. 

So here the author starts casting doubts upon the idea of Ashara as the mother here Harwyn tells us taht the time line is all wrong for Jon to be their child. 

mention #6: ADWD The Kingmaker

Quote

But Ashara's daughter had been stillborn, and his fair lady had thrown herself from a tower soon after, mad with grief for the child she had lost, and perhaps for the man who had dishonored her at Harrenhal as well. She died never knowing that Ser Barristan had loved her. How could she? He was a knight of the Kingsguard, sworn to celibacy. No good could have come from telling her his feelings. No good came from silence either. If I had unhorsed Rhaegar and crowned Ashara queen of love and beauty, might she have looked to me instead of Stark?

Here in ADWD Barristan wraps it up for us. Ashara did do the deed with a Stark, but that Stark could not have been Ned when we consider Ned's relationship with Barristan the men got along well, they respected one another, laughed together even. That is not how Barristan would be with the man who had in his words dishonoured the woman he still all these years later loves. 

and finally not a mention of Ashara herself but one which ties together all the information we have so far and tells us who really had sex with Ashara Dayne. 

ADWD The Turncloak

Quote

Someone has been down here stealing swords. Brandon's is gone as well."

"He would hate that." She pulled off her glove and touched his knee, pale flesh against dark stone. "Brandon loved his sword. He loved to hone it. 'I want it sharp enough to shave the hair from a woman's cunt,' he used to say. And how he loved to use it. 'A bloody sword is a beautiful thing,' he told me once."

snip

Brandon was never shy about taking what he wanted. I am old now, a dried-up thing, too long a widow, but I still remember the look of my maiden's blood on his cock the night he claimed me. I think Brandon liked the sight as well. A bloody sword is a beautiful thing, yes. It hurt, but it was a sweet pain.

Here we learn that Brandon Stark took what he wanted from Maidens, even High born ones GRRM uses double entendre to inform us that Brandon liked seeing maidens blood on his cock and also that he would lie to get women into bed. Barbrey didn't know Brandon was betrothed when she gave him her maidenhead. But Brandon knew because Cat tells us they'd been betrothed when she was 12. 

AGOT Catelyn II

Quote

 "… crown prince, and heir to the Iron Throne. And I was only twelve when my father promised me to your brother Brandon."

 Which means he was betrothed to her at 14 we don't know how old he was when he took Barbreys maidenhead but younger than 14? well perhaps I suppose it is possible, but it is unlikely.  

 

All of this stands to show us that Ashara's story has been told it is over. We learnt that she had a baby but that the baby was conceived well before Jon would have been. That logistically them meeting up during the window surrounding his marriage to Cat; when Jon was conceived,  would have been extraordinarily difficult. That the rumours likely are a result of her having had sex with a Stark just not Ned, and that the man she did do it with is likely Brandon.  Everything anyone tells us about Brandon Stark implies he was exactly the kind of bloke who'd do that. He's all fire, a short tempered show off who doesn't consider others before acting.  Where as Barristan a person who unlike Cat, Cersei, Ned Dayne, or Harwyn was actually there and paying close attention to her likens himself to Mud, lamenting that women never chose mud over fire. Ned is pure mud.  And whilst you can argue Barristan is wrong that some like Mud, that really doesn't negate the point that to Barristan Ashara chose Fire over mud and Ned ain't fire. 

ETA: The realisation that it was Brandon Stark who Ashara slept with is also a plausible explanation for Ned Dayne's messed up story.

The way he refers to Ned as Lord Stark when he was sleeping with his aunt supposedly implies that Ned has been told that Ashara's lover was lord Stark, but at the time Ned was not destined to become the lord, he had an older brother. It would be easy for a child born many years after Brandons death though to not even know he existed especially when you consider the person telling him the story is Allyria who it seems is likely a child herself, given the delay of many years in her marriage to Beric. Ned too says they fell in love at Harrenhall, which coincides with Barristans story. 

  That truth clashing with the deliberate rumour started to protect Jon's identity that Wyla was his mother a rumour with some grains of truth, as it seems likely she was indeed his wet nurse, and so had nursed Jon. Explains Ned Dayne's odd story. 

Edited by The Weirwoods Eyes

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Just now, kissdbyfire said:

For the record, I mean this humorously.

That said, and shamelessly stealing from @The Weirwoods Eyes...

Fuck this shit! Brynden 'Bloodraven' Rivers is the 3EC, get over it. 

 

yup, that is another one that people like to trot out. FFS. I swear there are enough mysteries to solve in this series without having to go back over and re work those we already know the answers to. 

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5 minutes ago, The Weirwoods Eyes said:

I recently had an epiphany regarding Ashara Dayne. She isn't important! 

I agree with this. I think her story is done. Ashara goes from this beautiful girl with laughing eyes with a whole future ahead of her, to someone who whose heart has been so broken, she kills herself. Her story is a very tragic one. Ashara for me is the flip side of what war does to those that are left behind. 

The longer we have waited between books, the more I think she is a character that was never meant to come into the present story. I thought she might have been Septa Lemore, but I've been done with that speculation for a long while now.

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1 minute ago, Widow's Watch said:

I agree with this. I think her story is done. Ashara goes from this beautiful girl with laughing eyes with a whole future ahead of her, to someone who whose heart has been so broken, she kills herself. Her story is a very tragic one. Ashara for me is the flip side of what war does to those that are left behind. 

The longer we have waited between books, the more I think she is a character that was never meant to come into the present story. I thought she might have been Septa Lemore, but I've been done with that speculation for a long while now.

Same here. Her only purpose is as a red herring and that purpose has been served. I doubt she's any secret identity GRRM simply left her body unfound to add to the very successful mystery of her as a tragic romantic martyr.  

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39 minutes ago, Faera said:

I just can't get passed the idea that Ned would have allowed his son to join the Night's Watch when he could have sent him to live with his relatives in Dorne instead when Catelyn insisted he couldn't stay in Winterfell. Never would there have been a better time for Ned to sit Jon down and tell him his mother was Ashara Dayne and arrange for him to go to them instead. Like you said, Jon would have eaten that up because it matches every fantasy he's ever had and would have given him a sense of pride...

I think the worst part of sending Jon to Wall or allowing him to go to the Wall was that the Night's Watch is no longer this institution that Jon read about or heard stories about. The men in it are for the most part criminals and it only dawns on him when he sees Yoren and the boys he is bringing north with him that he gets it. 

So that makes Ned infinitely cruel to not have sat his son and explained to him how different the NW is from his fantasies, knowing that he has another family out there that would/could take him in.

Ned didn't want to take Jon to King's Landing either and invoked the bastardy, but I think we know that his reasons for not wanting him near the Red Keep are other than the Jon being a bastard. 

Quote

So, definitely not Ashara. I'd say Wylla or Fisherman's Daughter are more likely, and I don't believe them either.

The fisherman's daughter and Wylla are women of no consequence, in that if it was one of them, Ned shouldn't have trouble telling Jon, well your mother was a fisherman's daughter who helped me right before Robert's Rebellion started. Or your mother is a wet nurse named Wylla who works for House Dayne. There is no consequence to that. Sansa has a line in the first book about "whispers that Jon's mother was common" (imagine! the horror!). There would have been no harm in telling him who his mother was had it been any of these three women.

 

Edited by Widow's Watch

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