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Order of the Green Hand says Jon is Ned’s trueborn son with Ashara? I’m not sure...

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56 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

For the record, I mean this humorously.

 That said, and shamelessly stealing from @The Weirwoods Eyes...

Fuck this shit! Brynden 'Bloodraven' Rivers is the 3EC, get over it. 

 

:uhoh:

While I'm not completely against Quaithe being Sheira (as it would have some thematic resonance with Bloodraven)... why can't Quaithe just be Quaithe?  And why can't Septa Lemore just be Septa Lemore? Why can't Jyana just be Jyana?! 

1 hour ago, The Weirwoods Eyes said:

I recently had an epiphany regarding Ashara Dayne. She isn't important! 

 Ashara's only purpose in the story is to provide a red herring for Jon's mother. She is only actually mentioned 6 times in the whole story, and each occasion is there to facilitate a smoke screen for R+L=J. And then finally to allow the reader to see through that smoke screen.  We've even had the beginning, the middle, and the end of her story already. 

This is pretty much where I'm at too.

41 minutes ago, The Weirwoods Eyes said:

Same here. Her only purpose is as a red herring and that purpose has been served. I doubt she's any secret identity GRRM simply left her body unfound to add to the very successful mystery of her as a tragic romantic martyr.  

Given her body probably landed in the sea or on a beach, the tide would have washed her away. Boom, no body.

I don't really see the point of her turning up alive somewhere. To reveal secrets? She's not needed; GRRM has dedicated a lot more time and effort emphasising that Howland Reed is the skeleton key to Ned's secrets. He is someone we know was with Ned throughout the Rebellion and fellow survivor of the Tower of Joy.

So, I really doubt Ashara would have much to add. :dunno:

48 minutes ago, Widow's Watch said:

I think the worst part of sending Jon to Wall or allowing him to go to the Wall was that the Night's Watch is no longer this institution that Jon read about or heard stories about. The men in it are for the most part criminals and it only dawns on him when he sees Yoren and the boys he is bringing north with him that he gets it. 

So that makes Ned infinitely cruel to not have sat his son and explained to him how different the NW is from his fantasies, knowing that he has another family out there that would/could take him in.

Ned didn't want to take Jon to King's Landing either and invoked the bastardy, but I think we know that his reasons for not wanting him near the Red Keep are other than the Jon being a bastard. 

Certainly reinforces the idea that Ned literally didn't have anywhere else for Jon to go. In his mind, sending him to the Wall to be with Benjen seemed to be "the best option".

55 minutes ago, Widow's Watch said:

The fisherman's daughter and Wylla are women of no consequence, in that if it was one of them, Ned shouldn't have trouble telling Jon, well your mother was a fisherman's daughter who helped me right before Robert's Rebellion started. Or your mother is a wet nurse named Wylla who works for House Dayne. There is no consequence to that. Sansa has a line in the first book about "whispers that Jon's mother was common" (imagine! the horror!). There would have been no harm in telling him who his mother was had it been any of these three women.

Indeed. Had it been a commoner, Jon would have been told who his mother was ages ago. Had it been Ashara Dayne, surely Ned would have reached out to the Daynes to take Jon on in a society that isn't as cruel or unfair to bastards as the rest of Westeros. Clearly that wasn't an option.

Jon being the child of Lyanna and Rhaegar is about the only theory that makes sense for all the silence.

 

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10 hours ago, Luddsthirdmorph said:

Ned arrived at Riverrun to discover Catelyn pregnant via Brandon.  He has little choice BUT to marry her but in this case under the rites of the seven.

 

That's impossible "Even when he took her maidenhood, their love had more of duty to it than of passion." (ASOS, Cat V) is stated in a Catelyn monologue about Ned. It is plainly written in the text that the only man Catelyn ever had sex with was Ned, which puts a big dent in your theory.

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I am of the belief that Ned and Ashara may have had an affair and may have intended to marry, subject to obtaining approval.  These plans would have been scotched by the war, and Ned marriage to Cat.  This could have led her to commit suicide.

I believe that the suicide attempt, while real, was unsuccessful, and she decided to reinvent her life, and is still alive, somewhere.  While Howland Reed is the main key to Jon, Ashara may have useful information for the readers.

I will confess that I have no idea where she is now.  Septa Lemore and Jyana Reed are both nice possibilities.  I think it is clear that Tyrion, at least, thinks Septa Lemore is more than just a soiled septa, and fact that he fails to mention her eye color is interesting, to say the least.

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20 hours ago, Faera said:

What evidence is there that Ashara was there with Lyanna "in case she needed help with her baby"?

There's no evidence. Though it's a logical assumption.

If, prior Rhaegar's departure to KL, him and Lyanna were at Starfall, with Ashara, Arthur and Oswell, and when on the way from Starfall, thru Dornish mountains, they realised, that Lyanna is pregnant, and can't keep going, and thus Rhaegar had to leave her there, with those three Kingsguards, and then Arthur has either sent a message to his sister to Starfall, informing her about Lyanna's condition, or he personally went back to Starfall to get help, then as soon as Ashara could go, she also joined Lyanna at the Tower of Joy, together with Meera, wet nurse Wylla, and maester Marwyn.

Ashara was Elia's lady-in-waiting. And now Lyanna became Rhaegar's wife, so it's Ashara's duty to be with Lyanna, if she needs help. And she will obviously need help, because she is young, inexperienced, and it's her first pregnancy. So the woman, that recently gave birth to her own child, and also became Lyanna's friend, while Lyanna was living at Starfall, so Ashara is the best possible candidate to be Lyanna's companion, considering Lyanna's state.

Also, between them finding out about Lyanna's pregnancy, and Lyanna giving birth to Jon, those that remained at the Tower, had months to get for Lyanna, anything she could need, including a maester.

20 hours ago, Faera said:

Especially when she has her own newborn with her!

Most likely, the one who informed Ned about Lyanna's location, was Howland. And he found out about it from Ashara. So he left Ashara at Starfall, and went to fetch Ned. Ashara was worried for what will happen at the Tower, when Howland and Arthur will meet. Howland dishonored Ashara at Harrenhal, so she was afraid, that her brother may kill her ... lover? secret husband? ... father of her child. So she went there to help Lyanna, and to try and prevent bloodbath between those that she loved.

20 hours ago, Faera said:

Sadly, the more I think about it, the more it seems much easier to concede she probably really did just kill herself.

The main reason, why I think, that Ashara is alive, because GRRM wrote, that the body wasn't found. This information is absolutely unnecessary, if Ashara really died. To inform readers about her fate, it would have been enough, just to write, that she commited suicide, by jumping into the sea, from the tower of Starfall. It equals to - Ashara died. But adding, that the body wasn't found, adds another possibility - the body wasn't found, because she isn't dead, and she didn't jumped from the tower. Furthermore, GRRM's hint, that Ashara wasn't nailed to the floor of Starfall, could be a clue, that at the time of her supposed death, she wasn't even there.

Another clue is Rhaegar's companions. Have you ever though, why did he took with him specifically Oswell Whent, and Arthur Dayne, and not his best friend Jon Connington, or someone else? Why those two?

6 hours ago, Faera said:

If there "never was" another Lord of Starfall then that means Ashara was the heir, given Arthur was in the Kingsguard. In fact, had the eldest Dayne sibling never existed then they probably wouldn't have let Arthur join the Kingsguard because then he would have been the eldest and heir.

It isn't known, which of them was older - Arthur or Ashara. He was born in 260 or earlier, and she was born between 260 and 269. Though maybe they are twins, and she is older, and because this is Dorne, this makes her heir of Daynes family. Which also gives Arthur opportunity to join KG, if he wants to.

6 hours ago, Faera said:

So, I don't see them lying about an eldest Dayne who was Edric's dad because such a lie wouldn't make sense because, then, who the hell would they be fooling when Edric turned up? :blink: 

Maybe eldest Dayne is the father of 3A, and not their brother. Or maybe Allyria Dayne is not sister of Arthur and Ashara, she's a Dayne from other branch of their family. So there is another Lord Dayne, who is brother of Allyria, and probably brother of Gerold Dayne, and thus Edric is posing to be son of this Dayne, in which case he thinks, that Allyria is his aunt, while actually she is his cousin once removed.

One of possible options:

Ashara and Arthur were twins, she was firstborn, and thus heir of their family. Their parents didn't had other children. So after Arthur died, and Ashara faked her death, old Lord Dayne adopted his niece Allyria, as his heir. Years later, Wylla returned to Starfall with little Edric, and informed Ashara's father, that Ashara is alive and this is her child. Or maybe old Lord Dayne knew all along, that Ashara wasn't dead. Maybe it was by his order, that people from their household lied to everyone, that lady Ashara is dead. And when Edric was brought to Starfall, he became heir of House Dayne. Allyria wasn't needed anymore, and they engaged her to Berric Dondarion, to get rid of her.

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16 minutes ago, Megorova said:

If, prior Rhaegar's departure to KL, him and Lyanna were at Starfall, with Ashara, Arthur and Oswell, and when on the way from Starfall

Again there is nothing to indicate that Lyanna spent any time at Starfall.

16 minutes ago, Megorova said:

she also joined Lyanna at the Tower of Joy, together with Meera, wet nurse Wylla, and maester Marwyn.

1 Ned doesn't think of any of those people during his fever dream about the Tower of Joy. Not to mention none of them faked their own death to dover up the truth.

2 Lyanna died diving birth, indicating that she didn't have four people helping her during her labour. Sure could have had help but then they really bungled it.

17 minutes ago, Megorova said:

Ashara was Elia's lady-in-waiting. And now Lyanna became Rhaegar's wife, so it's Ashara's duty to be with Lyanna, if she needs help.

If Ashara worked for Elia how in the name of funk does that maker her responsible for the health and wellbeing of  Rhaegar's paramour?!?!

17 minutes ago, Megorova said:

So the woman, that recently gave birth to her own child, and also became Lyanna's friend, while Lyanna was living at Starfall, so Ashara is the best possible candidate to be Lyanna's companion, considering Lyanna's state.

Nothing in the text indicates that Ashara and Lyanna knew each other much less were friendly or that Lyanna hade female companions at the tower.

21 minutes ago, Megorova said:

So she went there to help Lyanna, and to try and prevent bloodbath between those that she loved.

Why wouldn't this come up in Ned's dream about the Tower? A beautiful woman torn between love for a man and love for a brother watching them fight to the death is pretty memorable I think.

21 minutes ago, Megorova said:

The main reason, why I think, that Ashara is alive, because GRRM wrote, that the body wasn't found. This information is absolutely unnecessary, if Ashara really died.

Or it was a red herring. If a mystery one has one suspect there isn't a lot intrigue for the reader trying to figure things out.

24 minutes ago, Megorova said:

not his best friend Jon Connington, or someone else?

Aerys was made Hand of the King and then exiled by Aerys, so no mystery there. 

39 minutes ago, Megorova said:

Maybe eldest Dayne... ...Allyria wasn't needed anymore, and they engaged her to Berric Dondarion, to get rid of her.

Once more nothing in the text hints at this being the case.

Maybe the Mountain is a half-Troll from Trudvang and Ned is stand-user? I have all sorts of made up assumptions with not backing in the text to prove both those statements.

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7 hours ago, Ylath's Snout said:
8 hours ago, Megorova said:

If Ashara didn't died, it's more than likely, that eventually Robert would have summoned her for questioning. Because Rhaegar, Lyanna and Arthur had to go somewhere after Harrenhal, and where else would they go, if not to Starfall?

Why Starfall specifically? 

Why Rhaegar took with him Oswell Whent and Arthur Dayne, when he went to kidnap Lyanna?

Also think, what is special about location of Starfall, and how can it be relevant for future war against the Others?

4 hours ago, The Weirwoods Eyes said:

I recently had an epiphany regarding Ashara Dayne. She isn't important! 

Ashara's only purpose in the story is to provide a red herring for Jon's mother.

I think, that if we'll compare ASOIAF with Arthurian legends, then Jon is King Arthur, secret son of Uther Pendragon, Dawn/Lightbringer is his Excalibur, and Ashara Dayne/Jyana Reed is the Lady of the Lake, that gave magic sword to future king of Britain / Westeros.

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Just now, Megorova said:

Why Rhaegar took with him Oswell Whent and Arthur Dayne, when he went to kidnap Lyanna?

Seemingly they care more about following the princes orders than about laws concerning how you shouldn't kidnap 16 year old girls.

2 minutes ago, Megorova said:

Also think, what is special about location of Starfall, and how can it be relevant for future war against the Others?

Nothing shows that there is anything special about it. There are plenty of places with mystic connotations in Westeros, Starfall isn't among them. Harrenhal, Winterfell, the Wall and the High Tower would all make more sense if Rhaegar wanted to make/birth his baby somewhere magical.

The Tower of Joy was a remote place where Rhaegar could get Lyanna pregnant, willingly or unwillingly.

6 minutes ago, Megorova said:

I think, that if we'll compare ASOIAF with Arthurian legends

If we compare ASOIAF to DnD Jon lives because he has had plenty of cool adventure so he has leveled up a bunch thus he has plenty of Hit Points...

...Oh wait, assuming that rules or tropes from other stories apply to ASOIAF make no sense because GRRM has gone out of his way to not embrace all fantasy stereotypes and cliches.

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2 hours ago, Faera said:

Certainly reinforces the idea that Ned literally didn't have anywhere else for Jon to go. In his mind, sending him to the Wall to be with Benjen seemed to be "the best option".

Though maybe not even because of Benjen, but because of maester Aemon, last Targaryen in 7K.

23 minutes ago, Ylath's Snout said:
1 hour ago, Megorova said:

not his best friend Jon Connington, or someone else?

Aerys was made Hand of the King and then exiled by Aerys, so no mystery there. 

Jon Connington was made Hand of the King AFTER beginning of Robert's Rebellion. So why didn't Rhaegar took Jon with him, when he went to kidnap Lyanna? It was MONTHS prior JonCon became Hand.

25 minutes ago, Ylath's Snout said:

Why wouldn't this come up in Ned's dream about the Tower? A beautiful woman torn between love for a man and love for a brother watching them fight to the death is pretty memorable I think.

She was in the Tower, with her own baby. And even though she possibly came to the tower, to prevent fight between Arthur and Howland, at the time when Ned's party arrived, she was too busy with assisting maester Marwyn, when he was performing cesarean operation on Lyanna. People described Lyanna as "a child-woman" and "She was slim of frame." So, most likely, her pelvic bones were too narrow to let the baby's head thru. You're male, so you probably don't know specifics of childbirth. Petite women are often recommended not to even try to give birth on their own, only thru cesarean. Lyanna died in bed of blood, because they had to cut her open, to retrieve the baby. She couldn't give birth on her own, she already had an excessive bleeding, so she was dying anyway, thus maester offered her to save the baby, and she agreed, even though it meant a sure death for her.

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1 hour ago, Megorova said:

There's no evidence. Though it's a logical assumption.

Why?

Quote

or he personally went back to Starfall to get help, then as soon as Ashara could go , she also joined Lyanna at the Tower of Joy, together with Meera, wet nurse Wylla and maester Marwyn.

Marwyn? :blink: So, how come he got to go on as normal while Ashara had to fake her death and assume a new identity in your version of what happened.

In any case, nothing you have suggested comes close to believing that a woman who had recently give birth would want to drag her newborn daughter out to the Tower of Joy. Send a wet-nurse, fine, but Ashara has no good reason to be there. Just because she was Elia's lady-in-waiting doesn't mean she's obligated to do the same for Rhaegar's mistress. The reason Ashara was probably even selected to serve Elia is because the Daynes are bannermen to the Martells. 

1 hour ago, Megorova said:

Most likely, the one who informed Ned about Lyanna's location, was Howland. And he found out about it from Ashara. So he left Ashara at Starfall, and went to fetch Ned. Ashara was worried for what will happen at the Tower, when Howland and Arthur will meet. Howland dishonored Ashara at Harrenhal, so she was afraid, that her brother may kill her ... lover? secret husband? ... father of her child. So she went there to help Lyanna, and to try and prevent bloodbath between those that she loved.

OK, so now Ashara is there with the Northern riders who went to the Tower of Joy. 

I'm pretty sure Ned would have remembered that.

1 hour ago, Megorova said:

The main reason, why I think, that Ashara is alive, because GRRM wrote, that the body wasn't found.

Given that her body would have landed in the sea the tide carried her away. That's all there need be to it.

Besides, until that detail actually makes it into a relevant passage in the text rather than just being a SSM quote, Ashara's body never being found remains a tidbit to add further tragedy to her sad life.

1 hour ago, Megorova said:

Another clue is Rhaegar's companions. Have you ever though, why did he took with him specifically Oswell Whent, and Arthur Dayne, and not his best friend Jon Connington, or someone else? Why those two?

Because they were Kingsguard expected to obey the royal family before anything else. If he'd ordered them to stand and guard a worthless bush, they were honour bound to obey and guard that bush with their lives. It seems silly but it's true.

Jon Connington was not. In fact, given that he himself appears to have been in love with Rhaegar, he probably would have tried to talk him out of an action because taking a sixteen-year-old girl was bound to end in disaster. 

1 hour ago, Megorova said:

Maybe eldest Dayne is the father of 3A, and not their brother

RE: Dayne Family.  I'm sorry but no. There is no reason to doubt what we have been told at this point. No reason to doubt the existence of the eldest Dayne brother or that little Ned is his son. Unless you can find something in the text that seriously calls into question Ned Dayne's story that there IS an oldest Dayne brother to Ashara, Arthur and Allyria, who was his father, then all you are doing is speculating as a means to suit what you want to be true. 

19 minutes ago, Megorova said:

Though maybe not even because of Benjen, but because of maester Aemon, last Targaryen in 7K

No, I'm pretty certain Benjen was the main draw. Ned is very unlikely to have had any association with Aemon and Jon being his great-great-great-nephew doesn't count for much when neither knew that fact. Jon actually had a relationship with his uncle Benjen.

 

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33 minutes ago, Faera said:

Marwyn? :blink: So, how come he got to go on as normal while Ashara had to fake her death and assume a new identity in your version of what happened.

After Rhaegar's and Lyanna's death, Marwyn left Westeros for 8 years. Nobody was looking for him, because nobody knew, that he was involved. He went to Essos, to look for more information about the prophecy. He thought, that Rhaegar was the promised Prince, or his son Aegon, and that because dragon has three heads, then, in addition to Rhaenys, Rhaegar was supposed to have one more daughter, but Lyanna gave birth to a boy. So Marwyn went to Asshai, met there Quaithe, who is actually Shiera Seastar, and she gave him more information about Azor Ahai. And when years later he returned to Westeros, he went not to Dragonstone, where previously he served, as family doctor of Rhaegar's family, but returned to Citadel. Lannisters and Baratheons never met him, so they weren't aware of who he is, where he was, or what he did during Rebellion.

36 minutes ago, Faera said:

In any case, nothing you have suggested comes close to believing that a woman who had recently give birth would want to drag her newborn daughter out to the Tower of Joy. Send a wet-nurse, fine, but Ashara has no good reason to be there.

Her friend Lyanna was there. Her brother Arthur was there. Father of her child also was shortly planning to go there. That's three reasons for Ashara to also want to go there.

38 minutes ago, Faera said:

The reason Ashara was probably even selected to serve Elia is because the Daynes are bannermen to the Martells. 

Or maybe because she was Arthur's sister, and he wanted her to be closer to him than at Starfall. And if she became part of Elia's court at Dragonstone, it would be much easier to visit her there, going from King's Landing, than to go all the way to Dorne.

42 minutes ago, Faera said:
2 hours ago, Megorova said:

 why did he took with him specifically Oswell Whent, and Arthur Dayne

Because they were Kingsguard expected to obey the royal family before anything else. If he'd ordered them to stand and guard a worthless bush, they were honour bound to obey and guard that bush with their lives. It seems silly but it's true.

:rolleyes:

There was 7 Kingsguards. Why did he took with him those two - Whent and Dayne?

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11 hours ago, Megorova said:

There was 7 Kingsguards. Why did he took with him those two - Whent and Dayne?

Because his father might have had things for the other 5 to do?

Because they might have been the most loyal to him?

He could have wanted King's Guard loyal to him watching over Elia and the kids.

13 hours ago, Megorova said:

Jon Connington was made Hand of the King AFTER beginning of Robert's Rebellion. So why didn't Rhaegar took Jon with him, when he went to kidnap Lyanna? It was MONTHS prior JonCon became Hand.

You brought him up first in relation to the Tower of Joy. That is why I pointed out that JonCon couldn't have taken part in the final fight there. 

JonCon might have opposed taking Lyanna on the grounds that it was a stupid fucking thing to do. He loved Rhaegar but that doesn't mean he followed him slavishly. Cat loves Ned but deffenetly follows her own opinion when it came to Jon Snow.

11 hours ago, Megorova said:

Her friend Lyanna was there. Her brother Arthur was there. Father of her child also was shortly planning to go there. That's three reasons for Ashara to also want to go there.

She could have been there but she isn't mentioned. That is the problem you keep running into. Hell for all we know Doran could have been there going off the same "evidence" of "the person was somewhat close to the Tower of Joy and knew people there".

11 hours ago, Megorova said:

because she was Arthur's sister, and he wanted her to be closer to him than at Starfall. And if she became part of Elia's court at Dragonstone, it would be much easier to visit her there, going from King's Landing, than to go all the way to Dorne.

Why would that matter either way? Neither her role as Lady-in-Waiting to Elia and nor being member of a House loyal to the Martells compels her to help Lyanna. 

13 hours ago, Megorova said:

People described Lyanna as "a child-woman" and "She was slim of frame." So, most likely, her pelvic bones were too narrow to let the baby's head thru. You're male, so you probably don't know specifics of childbirth. Petite women are often recommended not to even try to give birth on their own, only thru cesarean. Lyanna died in bed of blood, because they had to cut her open, to retrieve the baby.

Gonna add this to my list of "reason Rhaegar was a scumbag idiot" arguments. If he was so dead set on having a child with her I could have just had Robert killed and made a deal with lord Rickard to marry her in a year or so instead of impregnating a girl that wasn't fully grown risking her and her child.

13 hours ago, Megorova said:

She was in the Tower, with her own baby. And even though she possibly came to the tower, to prevent fight between Arthur and Howland, at the time when Ned's party arrived, she was too busy with assisting maester Marwyn, when he was performing cesarean operation on Lyanna.

You are saying Ned wouldn't recall this other woman he knew and who became Howlands wife covered in his sisters blood? Come on.

Also her going into the Dornish wilderness having just given birth with a newborn beggars belief. 

11 hours ago, Megorova said:

Her friend Lyanna was there. Her brother Arthur was there. Father of her child also was shortly planning to go there. That's three reasons for Ashara to also want to go there.

Reasons for a person to go some place isn't proof they have been there.

That is assuming of course that she 1 was friends with Lyanna or 2 Had a relation with Howland. Neither of which are strong supported in the text.

11 hours ago, Megorova said:

Nobody was looking for him, because nobody knew, that he was involved.

Again this applies to Ashara as well. She could just plead ignorance and withhold information. Nobody seems with think House Whent as a whole was involved with Lyanna's disappearance just because Oswell Whent took part in it. 

Howland and Ned managed keep their gobs shut why couldn't she? Are you saying Robert would torture the supposed wife of on of Ned's loyal Bannermen?

 

 

Edited by Ylath's Snout

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On 6/28/2018 at 9:08 PM, Angel Eyes said:

This theory by the Order of the Green Hand suggests that Ned and Ashara married and Jon is their son, making Ned’s children with Catelyn bastards because Ned needed their army, suggesting reasons why Brynden Blackfish and Hoster Tully had their biggest feud yet. 

Thoughts? 

This theory might be BS.

There is no evidence Ned and Ashara married and we have Ned as a POV for most of AGOT so this is plucked out of thin air.  Ned, in a much quoted passage (included in the thread), specifically thinks of his children as Robb, Sansa, Arya, Bran and Rickon which, together with all the mystery and inexplicable secrecy about Jon's parentage strongly suggests that Jon is not his son.  Hoster was going to marry Lysa to Jon Arryn to bind the Tullys to the rebel Barratheon-Stark-Arryn coalition so Ned's "bigamy" would have been unnecessary.  Brynden and Hoster fell out because Brynden refused to marry when Hoster arranged marriages for him and the hard feeling is purely on Hoster's side for his brother's disobedience, Brynden simply having left his brother's service to live his life as he saw fit and follow Lysa to the Eyrie.

I don't see any merit to the theory, it either being unsupported by the text or it's main planks being easily pushed aside by more convincing explanations readily offered by the text.

On 6/28/2018 at 9:24 PM, Angel Eyes said:

The guys in the video think that Hoster forced Ned to marry Catelyn or he would lose the Riverlands and didn’t give two shits that Ned was already married, since it was allegedly an Old Gods marriage, which Hoster would consider invalid.

Is there anything in the text which supoprts or even suggests this?  It seems they simply took the fact that Catelyn later deduced the fact of Lysa's pregnancy and that Jon Arryn took Lysa, "soiled as she was" in return for Hoster's pledge of swords and ascribed it to Hoster forcing Ned to marry as well.  If Hoster was determined to marry Catelyn into the Stark family then let's not forget that if Brandon was dead and Ned already married then there is still a male Stark: Benjen.  They can be betrothed, even married, without any of this palaver about bigamy and secret marriages.  Benjen's existence alone is enough to shoot down the idea that Honourbale Ned would commit bigamy or Hoster marry his eldest daughter to a bigamist making all her children bastards as it is all unnecessary.

On 6/29/2018 at 5:34 AM, Wall Flower said:

I made the mistake of clicking on their Catelyn video. I only lasted as long as them proclaiming her the 'worst person ever' and a stone cold psychopath. Doesn't fill me with confidence about their ability to analyse the books or characters.

It seems they have mommy issues.  Like her or not Catelyn's motivations are clearly explained through her POV and this stuff makes me think I'm listening to the Republican Convention whipping up a frenzy against Hillary Clinton.

On 6/30/2018 at 5:34 PM, The Lord of the Crossing said:

We don't know if Ned was the same man back then.  He was  young.  Robert needed Hoster Tully.  I can understand how Ned might do something dishonorable to keep from losing the war.  

Ned was "never the boy he was" (sic).  If he was young and irresponsible why does Robert remember him exactly as he is now, why was he too shy to ask Ashara Dayne to dance or why does Catelyn compare him so unfavouably to Brandon.  Ned has always been Ned.

On 7/1/2018 at 9:34 AM, Luddsthirdmorph said:

My theory - posted before is that Jon is the child of Ashara and Ned married under a weirwood tree according to the old rites.

Ned arrived at Riverrun to discover Catelyn pregnant via Brandon.  He has little choice BUT to marry her but in this case under the rites of the seven.

Conceivably Ned believed Ashara dead when he married Catelyn.  He certainly would not know of Jon's existence.

This makes sense because we know that Brandon was the sort of guy to want to get in quickly with Catelyn and that the Tully girls were not well chaperoned. Perhaps the night Cat begged for Petyr's life was the night.  

It also explains why Ned married Catelyn, when we sort of know he was enamoured with Ashara. Now Ned would see Robb as being a rightful heir to Winterfell, since he was always in his brother's shadow.

Now depending upon when/if Ashara died none of the later children would be bastards under the law of Westeros especially if Ned "remarried" Catelyn, perhaps as some sort of "Northern" ceremony.

Finally of course we do not know if polygamy is accepted in the North or not.  Everything we know of the North suggests that marriage arrangements are a little flexible - eg the Mormant girls, and of course everyone beyond the wall. Craster marries all his daughter/wives. 

I think that ONLY those governed by the Sept are bound by the westerosi laws

But there is nothing to hint that Ned and Ashara were married.  Compare that with all the theorising and debating that has gone into the secret marriage of Rhaegar and Lyanna.  In contrast the author has left us no clues as to the marriage of Ned and Ashara and no reason to suspect it.

We know from Catelyn's own pov that she was a virgin when she married Ned so there can be no argument that she was pregnant by Brandon.

What reason would Ned have to believe Ashara was dead?  She was lady in waiting to the wife of the Crown Prince and he would expect her to be one of the safest people in the kingdom.

Ned married Catelyn because it was his duty to step into his brother's shoes and fulfil the marriage pact between House Stark and House Tully.  He was able to do so because he was unmarried.  If he was married Benjen could have fulfiled it.

The whole Westerosi system of inheritance and the series of marriage alliances rests on the legitimacy of children and the clear inheritance of the heirs of the union of the Houses, whether Andals or First Men.  Polygamy blows that whole system to pieces and leads to constant conflict if any Lord can marry multiple wives and elave multiple heirs with different families backing their claims.  Only the Targaryens practised polygamy.

18 hours ago, The Weirwoods Eyes said:

I recently had an epiphany regarding Ashara Dayne. She isn't important! 

< snip >

Well argued and very plausible.

Ashara gives me problems because there is something nagging at me about her death or disappearance and the thought that this must lead to something.  Or maybe not of course.

I agree that her primary purpose is as a red herring for Ned's lover / Jon's mother and that all the mystery around her, the rumours of her and Ned, Ned's stonewall reaction to Catelyn, the miscarriage or perhaps live birth, her apparent suicide, is to draw the eye and have us debating her rather than thinking about Lyannna.  Well over 20 years later we have of course long since thought long and hard about Lyanna and most of us have discounted Ashara enitrely.

Except she still has a powerful hold on some people's minds and any mysterious woman in the series - Septa Lemore, even Quaithe - or a non-mysterious woman we have not met - Jyana Reed - is trotted out as a potential secret identity for her.  And any youth of approximately the right age, from Jon to (F)Aegon to Dany is trotted out as her child.

I tend to think her story is told but the circumstances of her death do leave me open to the idea that this was faked.  I then have to ask why, where she has been and why all this time later it still needs to be a secret and from whom it is a secret (presumably her family know)?

I find the idea that her death was faked to protect her from Robert to be unconvincing.  Robert was furious at Rhaegar and Dragonspawn, not Elia's ladies in waiting and time and again showed himself to be magnanimous and forgiving to non-Targaryen adversaries.  After Elia and her children's death there was a need for good relations to be re-established with Dorne, something Jon Arryn achieved, and Robert seeking the judicial murder of the daughter of a prominent Dornish House seems extremely unlikely.  Ashara can remain at Starfall or Sunspear quite safely it seems to me.

So if she is not hidden to protect her from harm is she hidden to prevent something explosive she knows from coming to light - aka R+L=J?  Posssibly so.  But if Ned and Howland can keep their mouths shut why would we assume Ashara could not?  The rumours of her dishonour and pregnancy are enough to keep her away from Court.  Presumably her family members know what she knows so why would she have to disappear and why would they consent to this?  It seems to turn her into Chekhov's gun when Howland is already that and both he, Ned and her family know what she knows.  It feels redundant.

So is it some love match with Howland Reed and this was conducted under a smokescreen to prevent the Dayne family name from being dishonoured by marrying a mere Crannogman?  It seems an extreme charade to pull and just as plausible that the marriage could have been conducted without the secrecy: it is hardly more of a scandal than her pregnancy was and at Greywater Watch she would be secluded from prying eyes and excluded from High Society.  Plus, given Ashara's great beauty it seems extremely unlikely that she would fall for a short Crannogman like Howland: not just mud but moss and mud.  The central theme of the Harrenhal Tourney is how Lyanna and Rhaegar may have met and been attracted to each other: this seems to get ascribed to Howland and Ashara but there really isn't any indication of that that I can see.  As a beautiful woman of highbirth she had plenty of suitors and it seems Brandon Stark may have caught her eye or possibly Ned, not Howland, he was getting beaten up by squires and rescued by Lyanna.

So if none of this is really convincing did she simply commit suicide as a result of depression after a miscarriage?  It is more convincing than the idea that their child was taken away from her by Ned.  What right would he have to do this anyway after his marriage to Catelyn?  Or if the child was Brandon's?  Any bastard of Ashara's could be raised at Starfall and lead a good life given the more liberal Dornish treatment of bastards.  So the only part of Ashara's story that the rumours have true may be that she threw herself into the sea as a result of losing her child (to a miscarraige not to Ned's demands).  It feels entirely possible and yet it's not a satisfying explanation.....

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17 hours ago, Megorova said:

I think, that if we'll compare ASOIAF with Arthurian legends, then Jon is King Arthur, secret son of Uther Pendragon, Dawn/Lightbringer is his Excalibur, and Ashara Dayne/Jyana Reed is the Lady of the Lake, that gave magic sword to future king of Britain / Westeros.

Whilst there are many parallels in ASOIAF to Arthurian legend, and there are LOADS! Very few play out in exactly the same way as in the Arthurian tales, indeed even within the tales themselves there are different outcomes depending upon which variation you are reading, they went through many transformations and vary greatly. 

You've also presented this as a given without attempting to actually explain why you feel Ashara is the Lady of the Lake. What makes her so? what themes does she carry that pertain to the Lady?

You need much more solid high quality posts to sway people in this forum. This ain't YouTube. 

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@Ylath's Snout

My theories could be wrong, though I wouldn't be surprised, if they will turn out to be correct, because there was basis for them, given in the books. Let's summarise it:

  1. Ashara Dayne is alive, since the end of Robert's Rebellion she was living under name Jyana Reed, and is married with Howland Reed. Meera and Jojen are her children.
  2. Could be, that Edric Ned Dayne is also child of Jyana/Ashara and Howland.
  3. Wylla from Starfall was Jon's wet nurse. She is not his mother.
  4. Ashara, Meera, Wylla, and maester Marwyn were at the Tower of Joy, when Lyanna died.
  5. Ned didn't went to Starfall after Lyanna's death, and didn't returned Dawn to Daynes. Dawn is in crypts of Winterfell. This sword is Azor Ahai's Lightbringer.
  6. Ashara will later play a rope in giving sword to Jon, she will be his Lady of the Lake (like fairy sorceress from Arthurian legends, that gave Excalibur to King Arthur).
  7. Rhaegar didn't kidnapped Lyanna, they eloped together. They planned this beforehand. And Rhaegar took with him Oswell Whent and Arthur Dayne, because he was planning to bring Lyanna from point A (Harrenhal, castle owned by House Whent) to point B (Starfall, castle owned by House Dayne), so he needed help of those two, to make all necessary preparations, for their long journey to Dorne.
  8. Jon was conceived at Christmas Eve, at Starfall. The castle was build in place, where thousands years ago has fallen piece of Bleeding Star comet. From that meteorite ore was forged Dawn sword. Part of the star's power went into the sword, and part remained at location of meteorite's fall. The baby, that was combination of Ice and Fire, at the time of his conceivement at Starfall, has absorbed in himself that remaining power. This created spiritual connection between Jon/Azor Ahai and Dawn/Lightbringer.

Starfall was build on site, where first Dayne found fallen star. GRRM is using symbols from Bible. Fallen star is Lucifer. Also it's a reference to morning star Venus. Wielder of Dawn is called Sword of the Morning, because Dawn is morning star/lucifer/Lightbringer. 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lucifer

"Latin word lucifer (uncapitalized),[5][6] meaning "the morning star, the planet Venus", or, as an adjective, "light-bringing". Lucifer was also referred to as "morning star, son of the dawn".

Jon was conceived on night between December 24 and 25. So he was born 40 weeks later, on September 22 or 23, on the day of autumnal equinox. His zodiac sign is Libra, and his guardian planet is Venus, the Morning Star.

Now let's wait for the book. :cool4:

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@Megorova, the "evidence" you list above is anything.but. You are stating your own beliefs as if they're canon, straight from the novels. 

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1 hour ago, the trees have eyes said:

Ashara gives me problems because there is something nagging at me about her death or disappearance and the thought that this must lead to something.  Or maybe not of course.

 

She is dead because if she were alive she would be able to dispute the rumour that she was Jon's mother. 

There would be no possibility of Ned Dayne getting this confused and twisted account of the story if she were alive, as she would have given her own first hand account to the boy. 

"Aunty Ashara, I have heard gossip that you had a child by the Lord of Winterfell?" 

" No Neddy, not him. His older brother; Brandon who was so dashing but died before his time. And our child was a girl sadly she died too"

It would never get to the point where he believes both that his aunt loved Lord Stark, who must be the same Lord Stark in his own lifetime in his young mind, and that the same Lord Stark fathered a bastard upon the House wet nurse right under Ashara's nose. 

She is dead because if she were not in all the years since then surely she would have come across enough people to quash those rumours. The ones Cersei repeats to Ned. The ones Cat hears at WF. 

 

Ashara is howether given a glimmer of hope in AGOT they never recovered her body.  Ordinarily I'd say this suggests that yes she is alive and will come into play later. But in this case no. I think GRRM only meant to implant in the readers mind the possibillity/likelihood she would so as to further the ruse that she might be Jon's mum. If we get hints she might be and she's MIA then the logical conclusion is that she'll turn up later on and be revealed as his mother. But as we know she is not his Mum, and by ADWD the author himself has given us enough breadcrumbs to work out that her child was Brandons, and a girl. And we can work out too that Allyria Dayne can not be an adult due to her mis-information and her delayed marriage.  It is probable that Allyria Dayne is that supposedly still born babe. Not a Miscarriage that is the term for the early birth of an nonviable fetus.  Barristan describes the child as still born, meaning full term but dead. That is what Stillborn means. 

ADWD: The Kingmaker

Quote

But Ashara's daughter had been stillborn, and his fair lady had thrown herself from a tower soon after, mad with grief for the child she had lost, and perhaps for the man who had dishonored her at Harrenhal as well. 

Bastard children of daughters were/are even still passed off as much younger siblings in order to save them from the taint of bastardy. As a Sister to Ashara Allyria still stands the chance of every privilege afforded a High Born girl. Including a great marriage. 

I also think that being forced to see your baby bonding with your mother, suffering all the disapproval and disappointment that her unwed pregnancy would bring her and never being able to claim her own child would hurt enough to lead to suicide. 

It also explains Wyla's presence in Starfall when Ned shows up with baby Jon and Dawn. Ashara's mother could not breastfeed Allyria herself as she had no milk, because she was never pregnant. So a Wet Nurse would be needed, Also Allyria would be old enough that that wet nurse could be sent with Jon north by boat to beat Cat's arrival in WF with Robb. As she'd have been well over one by the end of the rebellion. Westeros seems to average two years nursing but certainly after 1 year an infant can and frequently does go without breastmilk. 

So I no longer feel convinced Ashara will show up in the form of Quaithe, Lemore, Jayana Reed or anyone else. 

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What I see from the numerous theories about Ashara being alive is this desire to believe there was more to get story than killing herself in despair. It is a sad story and one that people might wish there was some positive resolution to. Whether they argue that Ned truly loved her and that Jon, Allyria or even Daenerys is their child; or that she fell madly in love with the fish-outta-water little crannogman Howland Reed and ran away with him, leaving behind her haughty family for a new life; or she aided Elia and Varys in saving Aegon and escaped with him to Essos, or that she freaking went to Asshai to learn magic for some reason - it's people wanting there to be a better resolution than what is said at face value. I like some of these ideas and can be seduced by then at times but when I have to look at them objectively I realise none of them are likely true.

Ashara probably was dishonoured and impregnated at Harrenhal by the rakish Brandon Stark. A man who probably didn't love her and was set to marry someone else. Not quiet Ned or adventurous Howland - had it been one of those two, perhaps she would have had a happier ending. Then he was killed in open court and the war began. Then she gave birth to their daughter... only for her to die.  The only sweet aspect that we might speculate there is to this story would be if her daughter lived and turns out to be Allyria -  bit characters with as little effect on the overall plot as her mother. Still, it's only speculation - there's no reason to believe she isn't just Ashara's younger sister.

It is the story of a young woman full of laughter and happiness falling from grace through the attitudes of their society and the tragedy of war.

Edited by Faera

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24 minutes ago, Megorova said:

@Ylath's Snout

My theories could be wrong, though I wouldn't be surprised, if they will turn out to be correct, because there was basis for them, given in the books. Let's summarise it:

  1. Ashara Dayne is alive, since the end of Robert's Rebellion she was living under name Jyana Reed, and is married with Howland Reed. Meera and Jojen are her children.
  2. Could be, that Edric Ned Dayne is also child of Jyana/Ashara and Howland.
  3. Wylla from Starfall was Jon's wet nurse. She is not his mother.
  4. Ashara, Meera, Wylla, and maester Marwyn were at the Tower of Joy, when Lyanna died.
  5. Ned didn't went to Starfall after Lyanna's death, and didn't returned Dawn to Daynes. Dawn is in crypts of Winterfell. This sword is Azor Ahai's Lightbringer.
  6. Ashara will later play a rope in giving sword to Jon, she will be his Lady of the Lake (like fairy sorceress from Arthurian legends, that gave Excalibur to King Arthur).
  7. Rhaegar didn't kidnapped Lyanna, they eloped together. They planned this beforehand. And Rhaegar took with him Oswell Whent and Arthur Dayne, because he was planning to bring Lyanna from point A (Harrenhal, castle owned by House Whent) to point B (Starfall, castle owned by House Dayne), so he needed help of those two, to make all necessary preparations, for their long journey to Dorne.
  8. Jon was conceived at Christmas Eve, at Starfall. The castle was build in place, where thousands years ago has fallen piece of Bleeding Star comet. From that meteorite ore was forged Dawn sword. Part of the star's power went into the sword, and part remained at location of meteorite's fall. The baby, that was combination of Ice and Fire, at the time of his conceivement at Starfall, has absorbed in himself that remaining power. This created spiritual connection between Jon/Azor Ahai and Dawn/Lightbringer.

Starfall was build on site, where first Dayne found fallen star. GRRM is using symbols from Bible. Fallen star is Lucifer. Also it's a reference to morning star Venus. Wielder of Dawn is called Sword of the Morning, because Dawn is morning star/lucifer/Lightbringer. 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lucifer

"Latin word lucifer (uncapitalized),[5][6] meaning "the morning star, the planet Venus", or, as an adjective, "light-bringing". Lucifer was also referred to as "morning star, son of the dawn".

Jon was conceived on night between December 24 and 25. So he was born 40 weeks later, on September 22 or 23, on the day of autumnal equinox. His zodiac sign is Libra, and his guardian planet is Venus, the Morning Star.

Now let's wait for the book. :cool4:

Non of this is evidenced.

Yes the connections between The Morning Star, Venus, Lightbringer, and Dawn are there but you don't explain how those connections pertain to your theory. 

You made a bunch of statements then told us that there is a link between the idea of a Fallen Star, Dawn, and Lightbringer. Great yes, this is widely known. Lots of people use these connections to form great theories this isn't one of those. 

Where is your evidence? 

Why is Ashara the Lady of the lake? Why do you think she is Jayna Reed; I'm aware lots of people think this but I've never been convinced. Why do you think she is Neds mum, and to what end? We know Wylla was Jon's wet nurse, but that in no way supports your theory. What evidence is there that these people were at the ToJ? What evidence is there that Dawn is in the crypt?  Yeah it probably was an elopement but there is far stronger evidence for this in the text than simply that he took Whent & Dayne with him and there is no evidence that they ever went to Starfall.  Where is your evidence taht Jon was conceived specifically on Christmas eve? they don't even have the festival of Christmas in this world so how would that even be possible? Where is your evidence that Jon has absorbed the remaining power from the falen star? Or even that the fallen star fell specifically at that location and not in general in that area; Impact crater is a shitty spot for a castle would be vulnerable to both attack and flood, and not just Dorne/Westeros in general. The place the star falls is quite open to interpretation it is all in where you are standing?  But what is your evidence that there was any power? Or that Jon has absorbed that power? 

 

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23 minutes ago, The Weirwoods Eyes said:

You've also presented this as a given without attempting to actually explain why you feel Ashara is the Lady of the Lake. What makes her so? what themes does she carry that pertain to the Lady?

In Arthurian legends, there was two separate characters, that were named Lady of the Lake. One of them gave magic sword to Arthur (this one is Ashara), and the other was Merlin's lover, that imprisoned him in underground cave, and binded him to a tree (this one is Shiera Seastar/Quaithe/3EC, and her Merlin is Bloodraven).

Look at where Ashara/Jyana lives (that place is mysterious, and sort of magical, that is able to change location), and who is her husband (lord of lakes and floating islands). Also, according to official version of events, after Lyanna's death, the sword was given to Ashara. If she is alive, then she knows, where the sword is. I think, that destiny of Daynes was to guard that sword, until new Azor Ahai will appear. So Ashara will give the sword to Jon, or more like she will give him permission to own that sword, even though he is not a Dayne.

If Ashara was present at the Tower of Joy, when Jon was born, then most likely, she is his godmother. GRRM is building Jon to become Cinderella-man of ASOIAF - from bastard to Lord Commander of Night's Watch to secret Targaryen Prince to Azor Ahai. Cinderella also had a godmother, and she was a fairy/sorceress. Ashara is not a sorceress, though there is a slight connection between her and Arthurian Lady of the Lake.

There are several versions of that legend, about how Arthur got his sword. The Lady is one of sources, the other version, is that Arthus has drawn the sword from stone. In prophecy about Azor Ahai, it was said, that he will draw the sword from flame. I think, that Jon will get Lightbringer from three sources - 1. Ashara Dayne will reveal to Jon location of that sword, 2. he will take it from Lyanna's tomb - drawing from stone, 3. and at that time the crypts of Winterfell will be on fire, because dead Starks will rise, and people present there, will set them on fire, so when Jon will be retriving Dawn/Lightbringer from Lyanna's tomb, he will draw the sword from flames.

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18 minutes ago, Faera said:

Ashara probably was dishonoured and impregnated at Harrenhal by the rakish Brandon Stark. 

The same Brandon Stark who had to allegedly be restrained after Lyanna was crowned queen of love and beauty because he felt his sister was being dishonored and then rode to King's Landing, but didn't demand his sister be returned, but instead demanded Rhaegar come out and die.

This guy, man. It's not like he stopped sleeping with Barbrey Ryswell either. Who knows what other woman he was doing on the side.

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