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Order of the Green Hand says Jon is Ned’s trueborn son with Ashara? I’m not sure...


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47 minutes ago, The Weirwoods Eyes said:

Certainly if Allyria is Ashara's daughter by Brandon I really don't think that would be raised in the books or impact on the story at all. But just simply be something that some readers would pick up on. 

 

Or things like these perhaps?

 

Quote

 

"Can I dwell on what I scarce remember? I held a castle on the Marches once, and there was a woman I was pledged to marry, but I could not find that castle today, nor tellyou the color of that woman's hair. Who knighted me, old friend? What were my favorite foods? It all fades. Sometimes I think I was born on the bloody grass in that grove of ash, with the taste of fire in my mouth and a hole in my chest. Are you my mother, Thoros?"

Arya got goosebumps when Lord Beric said her father's name, but this Ned was only a boy, a fair-haired squire no more than ten or twelve. 

Even after all these years, Ser Barristan could still recall Ashara's smile, the sound of her laughter. He had only to close his eyes to see her, with her long dark hair tumbling about her shoulders and those haunting purple eyes. 

 

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3 hours ago, Ylath's Snout said:

That really makes me think she won't matter much in the grand scheme of things. Wouldn't GRRM make sure we knew stuff like that without having to look it up in a app?

I agree. She might appear as a bit character at most. Her lack of real set-up in the story makes me lean towards her not being Ashara's daughter and literally just being her sister.

3 hours ago, Risto said:

Arianne had a lot of matches. Willas Tyrell and Edmure Tully to name few. Not to mention those whom she rejected, including Walder Frey. We also forget the politics at hand. Martells bled during Robert's Rebellion and we do know that Jon Arryn had to calm down Oberyn and many voices who demanded war. Just like with North, it is not unusual for other Westerosi to see Dornish as more private. That's why Arianne's wedding status, which would be truly weird if she is in Stormlands or Westerlands, go more or less unnoticed in Dorne.

Sorry, I should have clarified that I meant she had no known betrothal. Doran rejected the matches because he was holding out for Viserys - whereas to the outside world, and even Arianne herself, she was unmatched despite being twenty-three, which is a little old to not have a public betrothal, especially for the heir-apparent of Dorne.

1 hour ago, The Weirwoods Eyes said:

given that Ran has seen the Dayne family tree I think we'll eventually find out the names of that elder Dayne brother and his wife. And I'd say it is safe to say that Allyria is listed as a Dayne on it.  I know his original comment re seeing it was in regards to Darkstar being listed as having just regular parents and no great mystery was involved but I'd guess had there been some great reveal from it we'd have got a cryptic comment and not the straight answer that we did. 

Certainly if Allyria is Ashara's daughter by Brandon I really don't think that would be raised in the books or impact on the story at all. But just simply be something that some readers would pick up on. 

"The Lady Allyria turned her long face caught in profile against the low winter sun as she replied" No, I will never accept your proposal Gerold, I believe Ned is out there. "

or "Her dark grey eyes flashed anger as he snatched up Dawn and fled." 

Excuse my shit fan fiction :blushing: but you get the idea. That literally that would be all we got and some readers would catch it. Others not. 

Agreed, she'd have a walk on role at most.

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17 minutes ago, Faera said:

Doran rejected the matches because he was holding out for Viserys - whereas to the outside world, and even Arianne herself, she was unmatched despite being twenty-three, which is a little old to not have a public betrothal, especially for the heir-apparent of Dorne.

I've said it before, Doran is a damn fool. More so considering that Arianne remained singled years after Varisy took his final dirt nap. It kinda only makes sense if Doran knew about (f)Aegon but then the Viserys pact seems kinda weird.

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45 minutes ago, Ylath's Snout said:

I've said it before, Doran is a damn fool. More so considering that Arianne remained singled years after Varisy took his final dirt nap. It kinda only makes sense if Doran knew about (f)Aegon but then the Viserys pact seems kinda weird.

He didn't know about Aegon. Doran seems to be mostly flying by the seam of his pants with these plans of his. Plus got to wonder how serious he was about the pact to marry Viserys and Arianne seeing how he gave Viserys and Dany no assistance at all. You'd think he'd want to keep the guy alive since he was supposedly such a large part of his plans. I find Doran to be a very frustrating character. In the end, I think he's just a complete coward.

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2 hours ago, Widow's Watch said:

I think he's just a complete coward.

I got to respect a leader for not being a gungho warmonger. More so when the fighting during Robert's Rebellion seems to have broken Dorne. 

The problem is nobody else seems under his rule seems to be onboard with that plan. Including his immediate family.

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3 hours ago, Widow's Watch said:

I find Doran to be a very frustrating character. In the end, I think he's just a complete coward.

I don't think it is fair assessment of the character, And I think that is not the way Martin write the characters. What he says about Doran is very clear: "Doran plays to win". Yes, it is a very tricky, slow, borderline infuriating game, but nonetheless game it is. He is not a coward. 

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17 hours ago, The Weirwoods Eyes said:
19 hours ago, Megorova said:

Second - Lyanna and Howland met Ashara at Harrenhal. Not just saw her, dancing with those other men, they talked with her. Rhaegar has realised, who the mystery knight is, and after finding out, that Aerys ordered to unmask him next morning, he has sent Ashara to warn Lyanna, and get rid of that painted shield. Should I explain this?

Yes, this needs explaining! e don't as far as I am aware know Howland met Ashara. We only know that he observed her dancing. 

How do we know they talked with er? Who is They? Ned and Howland?

Rhaegar might have realised who TKotLT was yes, this is possible and there are a few hints towards it. 

What is the evidence that Rhaegar sent Ashara to warn Lyanna? 

They - Howland and Lyanna. Ashara talked with them, to warn them, on Rhaegar's request.

This is what was happening, after appearance of mystery knight:

"That night at the great castle, the storm lord and the knight of skulls and kisses each swore they would unmask him, and the king himself urged men to challenge him, declaring that the face behind that helm was no friend of his. But the next morning, when the heralds blew their trumpets and the king took his seat, only two champions appeared. The Knight of the Laughing Tree had vanished. The king was wroth, and even sent his son the dragon prince to seek the man, but all they ever found was his painted shield, hanging abandoned in a tree." - ASOS, Bran II.

I think, that Rhaegar noticed Lyanna and people, that was with her, including Howland, because she and her family caused a scene at the feast:

"The dragon prince sang a song so sad it made the wolf maid sniffle, but when her pup brother teased her for crying she poured wine over his head."

It's unlikely, that their quarrel ended with just that - poured wine. I think, that Benjen retaliated, and between him and Lyanna hapened a cat fight, and Ned with Brandon had to drag them apart. Lyanna's brothers didn't treated her like some delicate flower, or precious jewel. She was a tomboy.

"They shoved him down every time he tried to rise, and kicked him when he curled up on the ground. But then they heard a roar. ‘That’s my father’s man you’re kicking,’ howled the she-wolf.”

“A wolf on four legs, or two?”

“Two,” said Meera. “The she-wolf laid into the squires with a tourney sword, scattering them all."

Ladies usually don't howl, or roar, nor do they beat men with tourney swords.

I think, that this is also Lyanna:

"Now two children danced across the godswood, hooting at one another as they dueled with broken branches. The girl was the older and taller of the two. Arya! Bran thought eagerly, as he watched her leap up onto a rock and cut at the boy. But that couldn’t be right. If the girl was Arya, the boy was Bran himself, and he had never worn his hair so long. And Arya never beat me playing swords, the way that girl is beating him. She slashed the boy across his thigh, so hard that his leg went out from under him and he fell into the pool and began to splash and shout. “You be quiet, stupid,” the girl said, tossing her own branch aside. “It’s just water. Do you want Old Nan to hear and run tell Father?” She knelt and pulled her brother from the pool, but before she got him out again, the two of them were gone." - ADWD, Bran IV.

So Starks caused commotion, and Rhaegar noticed them, especially Lyanna, because of her unlady-like behaviour. Probably he got interested in her from that moment, and thus he kept watching over her for the rest of that evening. So he saw Lyanna talking with Howland, and saw her pointing out to her brothers, a pitchfork knight, a porcupine knight, and a knight with two towers. 

"The wolf maid saw them too, and pointed them out to her brothers. ‘I could find you a horse, and some armor that might fit,’ the pup offered. The little crannogman thanked him, but gave no answer."

Maybe Rhaegar didn't heard their conversation, but he saw Lyanna pointing out to those three knight. And two days later all three of them were defeated by the mystery knight. Rhaegar wasn't stupid, so he was able to add 1 and 1.

"The mystery knight dipped his lance before the king and rode to the end of the lists, where the five champions had their pavilions. You know the three he challenged.”

“The porcupine knight, the pitchfork knight, and the knight of the twin towers.” "

The other two champions were Rhaegar and Barristan. So when the mystery knight went to challenge those other three, he was passing near Rhaegar. Obviously, that after MK joined lists, and went towards tents of champions, Rhaegar was anticipating a new challenge, or at least gave a bit of attention to a new participant. So when MK challenged not him, but those three, and those three were the same three knights, that Lyanna Stark was interested in, Rhaegar got reminded of those previous events, and thought that MK is somehow connected to Lyanna. Then he watched among viewers, found there family of Starks, saw that Howland was among them, but Lyanna wasn't there. And when MK won all three challenges, and spoke in a booming voice, Rhaegar probably thought, that MK was intentionally distorting his voice, to conceal, that he is actually a female. So Rhaegar figured out the identity of MK.

Later that evening, either Rhaegar has heard directly from his father, that he's planning to unmask MK, or he heard it from Arthur. Because when Aerys left tournament grounds, and went into his quarters at the castle, he was guarded by his Kingsguards. And probably Arthur was among them, when Aerys urged his men to challenge MK. Though when Aerys went to sleep, he didn't needed for all 7 of KG to guard him, so some of them were free to go, and probably among them Arthur. So Arthur went to talk with Rhaegar, not about something specific, just to chill out with his best friend, after day of hard work, or maybe to talk about how was Rhaegar's day. Probably they were also talking about MK, and Arthur mentioned what he heard. So Rhaegar got worried. Obviously, that Arthur, as his best friend, has noticed, that something is wrong, and asked Rhaegar, what is bothering him, and whether Arthur can help him in any way. Rhaegar told him about Lyanna, and they decided to warn her. Though it was already very late by that time, and it was inappropriate for a lady to be at this time of night, in a company of a man, that is not her husband, or her relative, it would put her into compromising situation, and ruin her reputation, or in other words - it will dishonor her (what happened to Ashara). So they needed to warn Lyanna, but they couldn't go to her. So Arthur asked his sister. 

Ashara went to Lyanna, passed to her message from Rhaegar, with warning for MK not to return. Though Rhaegar knew extend of his father's paranoia. He knew, that Aerys won't stop looking for MK, if MK will just disappear. And he was right.

"But the next morning, when the heralds blew their trumpets and the king took his seat, only two champions appeared. The Knight of the Laughing Tree had vanished. The king was wroth, and even sent his son the dragon prince to seek the man, but all they ever found was his painted shield, hanging abandoned in a tree."   

For people with paranoia, lack of evidence is not an evidence. If after Aerys has sent Rhaegar to look for MK, Rhaegar wouldn't have found something, Aerys would have thought, that Rhaegar didn't tried hard enough, or that he is in cohorts with that knight, that they both are plotting against Aerys. If Rhaegar would have returned empty handed after his search, then Aerys would have sent all of his people to search for MK. But even if then, nothing was found, then Aerys would have ordered to question all attendants of tournament. Maybe even with torture. So eventually someone would have remembered something. For example those three squires, that attacked Howland on first day of Tournament, eventually would have remembered his leathern shield, that was a shield of crannogmen.

"So he donned a shirt sewn with bronze scales, like mine, took up a leathern shield and a three-pronged spear, like mine, and paddled a little skin boat down the Green Fork."

Probably there was no other crannogmen at Harrenhal, aside from Howland, so there was no other shields like his. So in best case scenario, Aerys would have accused Howland in a treason, and executed him, and Howland wouldn't have revealed to Aerys, identity of MK, so Lyanna would be safe, but Howland would be dead.

So Rhaegar probably got an idea, that if the shield will be found, then it will put a stop, to further unraveling of Aerys' paranoia. Thus he needed to retrieve that shield from Lyanna. So he sent Ashara to her, with two assignments - to prevent her from going back to Tournament, and to take MK's shield.

First part of Rhaegar's plan went OK. Though there was a problem with the shield. When Lyanna defeated those three knights, and got revenge for Howland, she returned Howland's shield, from where she took it - to Ned's tent, where Howland left it amongst his other things. 

"That evening there was to be a feast in Harrenhal, to mark the opening of the tourney, and the she-wolf insisted that the lad attend. He was of high birth, with as much a right to a place on the bench as any other man. She was not easy to refuse, this wolf maid, so he let the young pup find him garb suitable to a king’s feast, and went up to the great castle."

"The quiet wolf had offered the little crannogman a place in his tent that night"

Crannogman's shield probably didn't suited to his new attire, so he didn't took it with him. And because at night he was staying in Ned's tent, his original clothes and his shield were also left there. So Lyanna took it from there, on second day of tournament, when Howland was with her brothers. She painted that shield, and after her victory, just returned it back.

So after talking with Lyanna, Ashara went to Ned's tent, to talk with Howland. It was in the middle of the night, so both Ned and Howland were sleeping. Though Ashara wouldn't have been able to find Howland's shield among his things, in the dark, without disturbing either of tent's occupants. And because Howland knew better, where his things were, and where the shield was, thus, when Ashara went there, she called Howland. She explained to him what's going on, and he gave the shield to her.

No one should have seen, neither Lyanna nor Howland, with that shield. Thus neither of them couldn't bring it out. Even though it all was happening at night, still it wasn't a deserted place without people. Many attendants of tournaments, don't have tents, don't have rooms, assigned to them at the castle, so they sleep under open sky, near their bonfires. Like Duncan the Tall did in Hedge Knight and Mystery Knight novels. If someone have seen Lyanna with that shield, then next day, when MK didn't returned, and Aerys has ordered to find him, and MK's shield would have been given in description of that knight (though even the description wasn't necessary, because all viewers of Tournament saw that shield on second day), then whoever saw Lyanna with that shield, would have reported it to Aerys. So then Lyanna would have faced a choise, to either admit that she is the MK, or to put the blame on Howland, by revealing, that it is his shield. Same as Lyanna, Howland also couldn't have brought the shield out, for similar reasons. He could have lied, that it wasn't his shield, that he just found it, and has nothing to do with MK. Though those three squires, that has beat him before, would have said, that it is his shield, they saw him with it before.

Arthur Dayne also couldn't have went into Ned's tent, to talk with Howland, for obvious reasons. Men would react more negatively, if their nighttime intruder will be another man, than if the intruder will be a woman. Also, if Howland was watching Ashara all evening, during feast at Harrenhal, then most likely, she also noticed him. So she knew how he looked, or at least she knew which one of those sleeping men is not Ned Stark, with whom she danced. And thus if a known woman, will enter unannounced, into man's sleeping quarters, it will cause less immediate commotion, than if unknown man will intrude at night, on terriroty of another man, and will disturb his sleep. If Arthur went into that tent, then Ned or Howland, could have attacked him, prior he managed to explain who he is, and why is he sneaking into their tent.

Apparently someone saw Ashara, either going into Ned Stark's tent, or going out from it. General public probably didn't knew, that Ned wasn't alone in his tent, and thus that Ashara could have went there not to meet with Ned. Whoever saw her, started those rumors, because of which Ashara was dishonored at Harrenhal. And this is based, on that someone, seeing Ashara going in or out of Ned's tent at night:

ASOS, Arya VIII: "When Ned met this Dornish lady, his brother Brandon was still alive, and it was him betrothed to Lady Catelyn, so there's no stain on your father's honor. There's nought like a tourney to make the blood run hot, so maybe some words were whispered in a tent of a night, who can say? Words or kisses, maybe more, but where's the harm in that?" 

ADWD, The Kingbreaker: "But Ashara’s daughter had been stillborn, and his fair lady had thrown herself from a tower soon after, mad with grief for the child she had lost, and perhaps for the man who had dishonored her at Harrenhal as well."

Then Ashara gave the shield to her brother, and Arthur hid it in that tree. It wouldn't be good, if someone saw Rhaegar at night near the place, where next morning, he supposedly accidentaly has found MK's shield. Inside of a tree, is a weird hiding place. So the only thing, that logically makes sence, of Rhaegar finding the shield in that place, is because whoever has hid it there, revealed the hiding place to Rhaegar, or Rhaegar himself has chosen that hiding place, and ordered to his accomplice to hid the shield there, for Rhaegar to find it next morning.

21 hours ago, The Weirwoods Eyes said:
22 hours ago, Megorova said:

People say, that Ashara was dishonored at Harrenhal, and Barristan said, that she turned to Stark, instead of him. Actually nothing happened at Harrenhal. Somebody just saw Ashara on late evening or at night, going in or out of Starks' tent. Howland was staying in Starks' tent, and Ashara went there to get the shield, and to warn Lyanna, that the mystery knight shouldn't return.

On what evidence? You're dismissing a primary source; Barristan was at Harrehall and had motivation to pay close attention to Ashara. In favour of your own ideas, which are not to my knowledge supported in the text. 

Barristan has no reason to be mistaken, he was infatuated with Ashara so he would be watching her and listening out for gossip.

Barristan could have been infatuated with Ashara, though it doesn't mean, that he was stalking her at night. Also maybe that night, he was one of those KG, that were assigned guard duty of Aerys' bedchamber. So afterwards, he knew only those things, that were said by other people. And because Barristan wasn't close to Ashara, there was no way for him to approach her, and ask her, whether those rumors are truthful.

21 hours ago, The Weirwoods Eyes said:

We don't yet know if they went directly to the ToJ or detoured there is no evidence to suggest they did though. 

 

22 hours ago, The Weirwoods Eyes said:

Well that is a question but as far as I know there is nothing to suggest it is the case.  Not in the main novels or the companion books. 

I'm guessing because they where happy there. 

Based on information, that is known, it seems, that Lyanna and Rhaegar planned their escape beforehand. Lyanna was kidnapped less than 10 leagues from Harrenhal, that's 34,5 miles. In that radius around Harrenhal, there is God's Eye, ruins of Whitewalls, Rushing Falls, King's Road.

I think, that Lyanna and her family were going to Riverrun, to attend Brandon's wedding. She said, that she wants to go to God's Eye, to pray for prosperity of Brandon's marriage, and for her own future wedding with Robert. So they let her go, with a few of their servants/guards. There she was "kidnapped" by Rhaegar. Probably Lyanna even arranged who exactly will be escorting her to God's Eye - she has chosen people, that won't try to fight against Rhaegar and his companions, those, that will let Rhaegar take her. Based on known information, there was no fight, no one was killed or wounded. So this can be seen as confirmation of my theory.

Next - if Rhaegar has planned this escape beforehand, then he also planned, where they will go afterwards. And he is a Crown Prince of 7K, there's no way, that he didn't figured out some better place for their honeymoon, than that watch tower in the middle of nowhere. 

His two companions could be a clue, where Rhaegar planned to go. They were going on a long journey, that would last several months. So they needed lots of food, spare horses, and other things, like tents, bedrolls, cooking equipment, etc. Like all that stuff, that Dunk and Egg took with them, during their travels across Westeros. So Rhaegar took with him Oswell Whent, because that guy had to prepare for them at Harrenhal, everything necessary for their journey. Their destination was Starfall. Because Arthur and Ashara already has proved to Rhaegar, that he can trust them, that they are loyal to him even above Aerys, even when it causes them serious troubles (like that supposed dishonoring of Ashara at Harrenhal).

They went to Starfall, that's a logic conclusion. You can argue against this all you want, but there's nothing in the books, that exclude this possibility. Rhaegar had to take Lyanna somewhere. And that place had to be secure. So what better place, than Starfall, could it be? Arthur is Rhaegar's oldest and most trusted friend. Thus Starfall is an obvious choise. Also it's not far from Oldtown. So if Rhaegar planned to divorce with Elia, prior getting married with Lyanna, he could have requested from Citadel, to arrange his divorce.

When Aerys has sent Gerold Hightower to find Rhaegar, Gerold went to Starfall. Because he knew Rhagar fairly well, and knew to whom Rhaegar has trusted enough, to hide for months at their place. So after Gerold found Rhaegar, they were going to return to KL. Sea-route was too dangerous to take during war time. Because they had to sail near Dorne, Stormlands, and Stepstones. Probably in times of war, pirates and slavers were cruising thru unguarded sea-routes of Westeros, because Targaryen fleet was too busy with war, and weren't guarding their sea-territory. And Rhaegar couldn't be sure, how Martells will treat him and Lyanna, if they will intercept his ship. So they went via land route, on horseback. By the time when Gerold arrived to Starfall, Rhaegar and Lyanna already were there for several months. So it's obvious, that she was already pregnant, though probably didn't knew about that yet. Though on the way thru Prince's Pass, her pregnancy became obvious. And thus Rhaegar didn't wanted to risk his baby, and had to leave Lyanna at the nearest more or less safe location. Probably that watch tower was the place, where Rhaegar and Lyanna realised, that she's pregnant. That's the reason why Rhaegas has called that place the Tower of Joy. There he found out, that he will have a baby.

22 hours ago, The Weirwoods Eyes said:

Priority is to get Jon a wet nurse. But they also need discretion and to transfer Lyanna's body to somewhere Silent Sisters can be engaged to strip the bones. My guess is that Ned killed three birds with one stone and went to Starfall. It isn't that far from the ToJ and Trust me I'm a breastfeeding councilor a few days of not much milk for a new born is not a problem.

How far a horse travels in one day, thru various types of terrain:

https://www.cartographersguild.com/showthread.php?t=19730

Speed of horse travel thru mountainous terrain is 20 miles per day.

Nearest location to TofJ is Vulture's Roost - 47 miles. It's a ruined castle. Thus, most likely, it was empty. It would take them a bit less than 2 and a half days to get there. The other nearest location is Nightsong - 135 miles from TofJ, nearly 7 days of traveling. To castle Wys is 185 miles, a bit over 9 days.

Tower of Joy is 400 miles from Starfall, in staight line.

400 miles / 20 miles per day = 20 days from TofJ to Starfall.

Would a newborn baby survive 20 days without food?

I did calculations of timeframe during Robert's Rebellion, and if my calculations are anywhere near correct timeframe, then, by the time when Rhaegar and Lyanna arrived to Tower of Joy, she was 4-4,5 months pregnant. Thus they still had over 100 days to send someone back to Starfall, and request from there a wet nurse. They (KG) would even have time, to travel to other locations, and choose a wet nurse, from several candidates.

So what makes more sense, that

1. when Lyanna died, there was no wet nurse there, and Ned had to travel 20+ days to Starfall, to feed newborn Jon,

or 2. by the time, when Lyanna gave birth to Jon, one of Lyanna's companions has brought from Starfall a wet nurse for her baby?

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1 hour ago, Ylath's Snout said:

I got to respect a leader for not being a gungho warmonger. More so when the fighting during Robert's Rebellion seems to have broken Dorne. 

The problem is nobody else seems under his rule seems to be onboard with that plan. Including his immediate family.

I don't have a problem with him not being gungho on wanting to go to war. Too may people think the solution to the problem is war. 

Where I think he is a coward is that he seems to want other people to fight his war for him and give him his vengeance. 

Doran did not help Viserys even though he was supposedly secretly betrothed to Arianne and by extension Dany. Viserys was mocked for being a beggar. Doran's interest in Dany is because her name is Daenerys Targaryen. His interest in her is her dragons because dragons mean he wins. So what has he been doing for 17 years? What kind of plotting has been doing that it is just now that he decided to reach out to Dany?

28 minutes ago, Risto said:

I don't think it is fair assessment of the character, And I think that is not the way Martin write the characters. What he says about Doran is very clear: "Doran plays to win". Yes, it is a very tricky, slow, borderline infuriating game, but nonetheless game it is. He is not a coward. 

Doran plays to win. Doran wants others to win for him. It's my opinion. You can disagree with it, but that's how he comes off to me. 

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On 7/2/2018 at 7:25 PM, Faera said:

Second, this is the full extent of what we know about Jyana:

Quote

—HOWLAND REED, Lord of Greywater Watch, a crannogman,
    —his wife, JYANA, of the crannogmen,
    —their children:
        —MEERA, a young huntress,
        —JOJEN, a boy blessed with green sight,

- AFfC (and ADwD) - Appendix, 'Other Houses Great and Small'

We know one more thing about her - her first child Meera, was conceived in early 283, because Meera was born in late 283 (later than Jon), between Harvest Feast (possibly based on American Thanksgiving, that takes place on fourth Thursday of November) and New Year's Eve. So very late in the year, last month or one prior it.

By that time, in the beginning of 283, the Rebellion was already going full force. There already happened battle at Gulltown, battles at Summerhall and Ashford, all in 282, and possibly even battle of the Bells at Stoney Sept.

So what was Howland doing home, with his wife, while his friend Ned, was fighting in a war, and his other friend, Lyanna, was kidnapped? I think, that it's more likely, that in early 283, Howland was trying to find Lyanna, and thus went to Starfall, where he was reunited with Ashara. This option IS possible.

On 7/2/2018 at 7:25 PM, Faera said:

First, you have yet to provide a single quote that might infer that Ashara had any relationship whatsoever with Howland, let alone that she is Jyana. 

If there was direct information in the book, about connection between Howland and Ashara, then it would have been too easy for readers to figure out, that Jyana is Ashara, and from then on, that Dawn isn't at Starfall, etc.

On 7/2/2018 at 7:48 PM, Ylath's Snout said:
On 7/2/2018 at 6:15 PM, Megorova said:

GRRM is using symbols from Bible. Fallen star is Lucifer. Also it's a reference to morning star Venus.

The Bible, L/lucifer or Venus are never ever referenced in the story

Actually they were.

Translation of word lucifer is light-bringing. In ASOIAF the wielder of Dawn, is called the Sword of the Morning, while in the Bible Lucifer is called son of the morning, and son of dawn. Starfall was build on a site of fallen star. In the Bible Lucifer was also called not only fallen angel, but also fallen star:

"How you have fallen from heaven, morning star, son of the dawn!"

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lucifer

GRRM is also using other Biblical symbols, such as unicorns, griffins and burning heart - all three are symbols of Jesus.

Obviously, that GRRM doesn't point out to readers in his books, that this is from this and that part from the Bible, etc. Though if you don't notice those symbols/clues, it doesn't mean, that they aren't there.

On 7/2/2018 at 7:48 PM, Ylath's Snout said:
On 7/2/2018 at 6:57 PM, Megorova said:

GRRM is building Jon to become Cinderella-man of ASOIAF

Are you sure 'bout that? Jon did just get stabbed to shit.

Which doesn't mean, that he will die. Though even if he wil die, it doesn't mean, that it will be a permanent death. Jesus also died, though later he was ressurected and became King of kings, and Lord of lords <- this is another parallel between Biblical symbolism and GRRM's books - the Stallion that will mount the world, was called Khal of Khals, which means king of kings. And it was said in the prophecy, that he will unite all Dothraki, and all people of the world will be his herd; And in the Bible Jesus was called shepherd, that will guide all nations.

So it seems, that GRRM is preparing big return from the dead, for both of them - Jon and Rhaego.

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On 6/28/2018 at 4:07 PM, Megorova said:

 

Ned Stark is not the kind of person, to marry with another woman, if he is already married, and his wife is expecting a child.

 

This is a line that has always bothered me. Just because someone is considered as honorable as Ned Stark is believed to be, doesn't mean he is always that way. No one is perfect. Especially not in a George RR Martin story. I don't believe Jon is the son of Ned and Ashara, but this reasoning bothers me. It's possible he did this, and it has weighed on him so much that he's built the story of his honor since, out of guilt or some other reason. Just a thought.

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19 minutes ago, Megorova said:

Actually they were.

Explicitly referenced is in "Robb meh lad read this here Bible" not vague allusions.

Going by that logic we must consider all the symbols importance of Elric of Melniboné and the Moorcock Multiverse because Edric Storms is a reference to Elric of Melniboné and his sword Stormbringer along with the Valyrians being a clear references to the Melniboné are both are weird isolated incestual not-fully human peoples with command over dragons.

Or you know we could keep to the text and other canonical sources.

20 minutes ago, Megorova said:

GRRM is also using other Biblical symbols, such as unicorns, griffins and burning heart - all three are symbols of Jesus.

I don't know what kind of trippy apocrypha filled gnostic Bible you are thinking of but I have never heard Jesus compared to a unicorn or a gryphon. Not to mention they both are far older than that book so calling them Biblical symbols is missing the mark by quite a bit.

The Sacred Heart is a christian symbol in our world but seeing as that faith is never reference and The Red God has something of a fire-theme I think a burning heart makes sense in univers without the need for a explanation for only makes sense out-of-universe.

44 minutes ago, Megorova said:

King of kings, and Lord of lords <- this is another parallel between Biblical symbolism and GRRM's books - the Stallion that will mount the world, was called Khal of Khals, which means king of kings. And it was said in the prophecy, that he will unite all Dothraki, and all people of the world will be his herd; And in the Bible Jesus was called shepherd, that will guide all nations.

Are you saying you think Jon is going to be the messiah to a people he never met whose biggest pastimes are: raping, killing, pillaging and slaving? Somehow I don't think so.  Also considering that the Dothraki are the world leading suppliers of slaves "all people of the world his herd" is likely literal as in "all the people of the world his private property" so fuck tStMtW.

Also King of King is: 1 Pre-Christian and 2 it makes sense in-universe as a way to signify that the Stallion the Mounts the World would be something completely.

1 hour ago, Megorova said:

So it seems, that GRRM is preparing big return from the dead, for both of them - Jon and Rhaego.

Oh you, were talking about Rhago. But made no reference to until after your main point. Honestly you need to take some time and read though what you about to post. Some of the things you post are genuinely hard to understand, not trying to be an ass or anything.

1 hour ago, Megorova said:

that Dawn isn't at Starfall, etc.

Even if Ashara was married to Howland why in the name of Rock gigians QUEEN would it follow that Ashara stole her family treasure and dumped it unsupervised in Winterfell? The Daynes have been using Dawn in wars on and off for seemingly the entire existence of the House. Using a very valuable sword in fights were you risk death and therefore loosing the sword is some backward way of "keeping it safe for AA"

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3 hours ago, Widow's Watch said:

So what has he been doing for 17 years? What kind of plotting has been doing that it is just now that he decided to reach out to Dany?

That is a very valid point. Given what we know he does come off as indecisive and lazy. There could be some revelation that would "redeem" his leadership but right now his best shot at revenge has passed him by with staying out of WoT5K and he he lost his eldest son to the quest for dragons.

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9 minutes ago, TheSunspearKid said:

This is a line that has always bothered me. Just because someone is considered as honorable as Ned Stark is believed to be, doesn't mean he is always that way.

Though people are usually behaving according to their character and principles, and don't do something, that goes against who they are. For example, can you imagine Superman robbing a jewellery store? or Natasha Romanova going into monastery and becoming a nun? or Captain America joining communist party? Ned Stark, leaving pregnant wife, for the sake of martial alliance, is similar to that - out of character.

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@Megorova, the parallels are there. Same for symbolism, many mythologies, and rw histories and stories. But that doesn't mean that these things will evolve and resolve the same way in the books. And that's where the problem is w/ many of the ideas you are presenting here. You are assuming a whole lot based on rw stuff, but I very much doubt Martin will follow any very closely. 

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2 hours ago, Megorova said:

We know one more thing about her - her first child Meera, was conceived in early 283, because Meera was born in late 283 (later than Jon), between Harvest Feast (possibly based on American Thanksgiving, that takes place on fourth Thursday of November) and New Year's Eve. So very late in the year, last month or one prior it.

 

Slightly OT but we can't presume connections between these fantasy holidays and our own. Especially since real-world Harvest Festival is usually related to the autumnal equinox in our world.  So, Harvest Festival in their world might also depend on whatever the hell their planet is doing, or based on something completely different. Bottom line is - we don't know.

As for Meera's conception...

2 hours ago, Megorova said:

 By that time, in the beginning of 283, the Rebellion was already going full force. There already happened battle at Gulltown, battles at Summerhall and Ashford, all in 282, and possibly even battle of the Bells at Stoney Sept.

Yes, but Howland wouldn't have entered the war until Ned returned to the North to call his banners and they marched south. The first battle the Northern host are known to have taken part in was the Battle of the Bells, as prior to that, Ned was making his dangerous trip home from the Vale. The BotB is usually placed on timelines around the end of 282 or beginning months of 283 (which is the year the wiki picks). So, prior to the Northern host marching south of the Neck there is no reason to believe Howland wasn't at home making a baby with his wife.

Given that GRRM stated Howland "was part of the northern host through the war" I certainly see no time for him to be mucking around in Dorne with Ashara.

Addendum: Even if you used the argument about Ashara not being "nailed to the floor" at Starfall, she's less likely to be where we can safely presume Howland was than a separate Jyana.

2 hours ago, Megorova said:

 So what was Howland doing home, with his wife, while his friend Ned, was fighting in a war, and his other friend, Lyanna, was kidnapped? I think, that it's more likely, that in early 283, Howland was trying to find Lyanna, and thus went to Starfall, where he was reunited with Ashara. This option IS possible.

No, it really isn't.

As said above, Howland would only have officially entered the war when Ned called the banners and the BotB was fought. This would have happened in the last months of 282 to the first few months 283 - your alleged conception period for Meera. So tell me... what was Howland doing in Dorne banging Ashara Dayne when his friend Ned was fighting in a war? In the words of GRRM, "It's a long way from Dorne to Winterfell, a journey of months." Even if he went by boat he'd have been MIA for a long time and probably wouldn't have beaten Ned back to the North. 

Surely you understand based on these factors why I find it much easier to believe that Howland was at home during this period. Ned would literally have had to march the Northern host through Howland's backyard in order to get to the Riverlands - they probably picked Howland and his crannogmen up on the way through! :laugh:

Heck, if I were to speculate: the crannogmen are one of the few armies in the Northern host that I could believe actually have had women in it! So, Jyana could have been with Howland for the beginning of the Northern involvement of the rebellion. Not that I think it's necessary because there is time for Jyana to become pregnant before Howland left.

2 hours ago, Megorova said:

If there was direct information in the book, about connection between Howland and Ashara, then it would have been too easy for readers to figure out, that Jyana is Ashara, and from then on, that Dawn isn't at Starfall, etc.

Sure, if "direct information" existed, there would be no doubt either way. What I'm asking for is for you to back up these numerous, colourful assertions you have with quotes from the books rather than drawing parallels to other works of literature which may or may not correspond to ASOIAF.

Look - I'm not opposed to an idea like Howland and Ashara. I would find it interesting IF there were hints in the text to support it. I could actually have a discussion about BOOK HINTS because they are there to be interpreted. But I can't think of any and you haven't supplied any. So, I have no choice but to dismiss it... especially with all these bells and whistles of Howland having to magic himself from the Neck, to Dorne and back again. 

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48 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

@Megorova, the parallels are there. Same for symbolism, many mythologies, and rw histories and stories. But that doesn't mean that these things will evolve and resolve the same way in the books. And that's where the problem is w/ many of the ideas you are presenting here. You are assuming a whole lot based on rw stuff, but I very much doubt Martin will follow any very closely. 

Before I continue to that post, is it in "Jaime and Ragnarok" fashion? :D 

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13 hours ago, Faera said:

Literally, the only indication we have that Allyria is "Allyria Dayne" comes from the WOIAF app, where she has an entry under the name "Allyria Dayne" where she is cited as the younger sibling of Arthur and Ashara. Under Beric's profile is simply states, "He is betrothed to the Lady Allyria of House Dayne, and has her nephew, Lord Edric of Starfall, as his squire." Likewise, with Edric, the app merely states he is "the son of a sibling of Ser Arthur Dayne, Lady Ashara, and Lady Allyria." - so, no, we don't know who Edric's parents are.

Thank you for contributing the APP information. I appreciate it.

I dunna know how to say this, except with a bit of humor.  The dinosaur in me is questioning why martin spent such a long time and blew smoke so long about the Jon momma drama. In hindsight it is such a waste of time and energy,

:thumbsup:

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6 minutes ago, Ylath's Snout said:

I don't know what kind of trippy apocrypha filled gnostic Bible you are thinking of but I have never heard Jesus compared to a unicorn or a gryphon.

Actually, I have read somewhere in this forum, thread about biblical symbolism, used by GRRM in ASOIAF.

In ASOIAF there's griffins, not gryphons. Like Conningtons' red griffins, and their castle Griffin's Roost. Picture of griffin and unicorn on doors of House of Black and While, in the temple of Faceless Men, etc.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Griffin

Quote

Being a union of an aerial bird and a terrestrial beast, it was seen in Christendom to be a symbol of Jesus, who was both human and divine.

https://aleteia.org/2017/08/14/how-the-griffin-became-a-symbol-of-christ/

Quote

When the image was taken up by Christians it became a surprising symbol of Christ. According to the Academy of Classical Christian Studies, “The griffin became for [Christians] a rich symbol of the two natures of Christ Himself: the eagle, which is lord of the sky, reminds us of the divine nature, while the lion, which is lord of the earth (the ‘king of beasts’), reminds us of the human nature. Together, they remind us that our Lord is the true King of the heavens and the earth.”

Saint Isidore even notes how, “Christ is Lion because He reigns and has strength; Eagle, because after the Resurrection He rises into Heaven.”

The griffin is also closely connected to the book of Revelation, where it is mentioned: “And round the throne, on each side of the throne, are four living creatures … the first living creature like a lion, the second living creature like an ox, the third living creature with the face of a man, and the fourth living creature like a flying eagle” (Revelation 4:6-7).

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unicorn#Biblical

http://www.margaretstarbird.net/unicorn.html

Quote

The medieval unicorn is widely accepted as a symbol for Jesus Christ. In the Hebrew Scriptures ...

https://www.preachingsymbols.com/unicorn.html

Quote

What does this Christian symbol mean?

Though the unicorn may seem to be a strange choice as a symbol of Christianity, it has been used since ancient times to signify several things. - Purity - Incarnation - annunciation - Cross - Monotheism

The unicorn is also considered an allegory for the life of Christ.

One legend holds that the only way to capture a unicorn was for hunters to find a virgin woman sitting in a field. After some time, a unicorn would be drawn to the woman often putting its head in her lap. The hunters could then spring from hiding and capture or even kill the unicorn.

As an allegory, the virgin symbolized Mary, and the Unicorn who came to her symbolized Jesus. The hunters would symbolize either sin or humanity. The death or capture of the unicorn symbolized the crucifixion. With this interpretation, scenes like that depicted below could be used to teach the entire life of Christ from birth to crucifixion.

 

30 minutes ago, Ylath's Snout said:

Are you saying you think Jon is going to be the messiah to a people he never met whose biggest pastimes are: raping, killing, pillaging and slaving?

Not Jon - Rhaego. The one, that is supposedly dead.

There will be three saviours - Dany, Rhaego and Jon - three heads of the dragon - the promised Princess, the Stallion, and Azor Ahai. Like Biblical Holy Trinity - Father, Son, and the Holy Spirit. Only GRRM is going for - Mother, Son, and the Holy Ghost.

35 minutes ago, Ylath's Snout said:

Also King of King is: 1 Pre-Christian

Though it's also about Jesus during Apocalypse.

https://bible.knowing-jesus.com/topics/Jesus-As-King-Of-Kings

Quote

Revelation 17:14

These will wage war against the Lamb, and the Lamb will overcome them, because He is Lord of lords and King of kings, and those who are with Him are the called and chosen and faithful.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lamb_of_God

Quote

Lamb of God (Greek: Ἀμνὸς τοῦ Θεοῦ, Amnos tou Theou; Latin: Agnus Deī [ˈaŋ.nʊs ˈde.iː]) is a title for Jesus that appears in the Gospel of John.

A lion-like lamb that rises to deliver victory after being slain appears several times in the Book of Revelation.

 

42 minutes ago, Ylath's Snout said:

Oh you, were talking about Rhago. But made no reference to until after your main point. Honestly you need to take some time and read though what you about to post. Some of the things you post are genuinely hard to understand, not trying to be an ass or anything.

English is my fourth language, and I'm still in the process of learning it. I'm using this forum to practice written English. And I'm aware, that often what I wrote, looks like a total gibberish ^_^, because I'm unable yet, to properly convey my thoughts in foreign language.

46 minutes ago, Ylath's Snout said:

Even if Ashara was married to Howland why in the name of Rock gigians QUEEN would it follow that Ashara stole her family treasure and dumped it unsupervised in Winterfell? The Daynes have been using Dawn in wars on and off for seemingly the entire existence of the House. Using a very valuable sword in fights were you risk death and therefore loosing the sword is some backward way of "keeping it safe for AA"

What if Rhaegar figured out, that Dawn is supposed to become a weapon of the promised Prince? Maybe there was some indications of it, in Daenys' book of Signs and portents. Maybe Daynes also were waiting for birth of Dawn's rightful wielder?

I think, that first Azor Ahai was servant of R'hllor (based on him forging Lightbringer in a sacred flames, in a temple, and him knowing, what he should do, to defeat the Others), and he was able to read fire, and saw visions of the future. Also maybe he was that first Dayne, that went after falling star, forged from it Dawn/Lightbringer, and has build Starfall on the crash site. Could be, that he wrote prophecies on walls of R'hllor's temple in Asshai, and that's from where Melisandre knows about second Azor Ahai.

Maybe he also wrote some sort of guiding prophecy, for his future descendants, in whose care he left Lightbringer/Dawn. Maybe there's a prophecy, written somewhere in Starfall, and based on this prophecy, Daynes were able to figure out, that their sword should be given to Lyanna's baby. It's similar to how in The Lord of the Rings, Kingdom Gondor was supposed to be ruled by Stewards, until return of rightful King. 

Also even though Azor Ahai killed his wife, Nissa Nissa, it doesn't mean, that they didn't had children before her death, or that he couldn't have remarried after Long Night ended. Or maybe he had many wives, an entire harem of them. In the legends, Nisa was referred to, as his beloved wife. Maybe it was a term, used to describe favourite wife, while there was also an entire harem of lesser wives. Some Valyrians had many wives. Some Daynes have Valyrian looks. So maybe Valyrians and Daynes have common ancestors. In LOTR, King Isildur, the one that took the Ring, after the first war, was killed by those, that wanted to take the Ring, nevertheless he did had descendants, and Aragorn was one of them. So Nissa's death is insignificant. AA, killing her, doesn't mean, that current Daynes can't be descendants of first AA.

Thus, even though Dawn was held by Daynes family for many generations, and they got used to it, it doesn't mean, that they had a right, to keep it permanently. In LOTR, there were also disputes, that Aragorn should buzz off, and Denethor and Faramir will continue to rule over Gondor, without him. Other Daynes could have been against giving Dawn to Jon, though Ashara didn't asked their opinion, and faked her death, taking the sword with her. So afterwards, they didn't wanted to reveal to general public, that they have lost their ancestral sword, and thus they lied, that the sword is remaining at Starfall, waiting for its next wielder, worthy of its great power. And no candidate is worthy enough, so they can permanenty conceal the secret, that they actually don't have that sword anymore.

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4 hours ago, Megorova said:

We know one more thing about her - her first child Meera, was conceived in early 283, because Meera was born in late 283 (later than Jon), between Harvest Feast (possibly based on American Thanksgiving, that takes place on fourth Thursday of November) and New Year's Eve. So very late in the year, last month or one prior it.

By that time, in the beginning of 283, the Rebellion was already going full force. There already happened battle at Gulltown, battles at Summerhall and Ashford, all in 282, and possibly even battle of the Bells at Stoney Sept.

So what was Howland doing home, with his wife, while his friend Ned, was fighting in a war, and his other friend, Lyanna, was kidnapped? I think, that it's more likely, that in early 283, Howland was trying to find Lyanna, and thus went to Starfall, where he was reunited with Ashara. This option IS possible.

If there was direct information in the book, about connection between Howland and Ashara, then it would have been too easy for readers to figure out, that Jyana is Ashara, and from then on, that Dawn isn't at Starfall, etc.

Actually they were.

Translation of word lucifer is light-bringing. In ASOIAF the wielder of Dawn, is called the Sword of the Morning, while in the Bible Lucifer is called son of the morning, and son of dawn. Starfall was build on a site of fallen star. In the Bible Lucifer was also called not only fallen angel, but also fallen star:

"How you have fallen from heaven, morning star, son of the dawn!"

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lucifer

GRRM is also using other Biblical symbols, such as unicorns, griffins and burning heart - all three are symbols of Jesus.

Obviously, that GRRM doesn't point out to readers in his books, that this is from this and that part from the Bible, etc. Though if you don't notice those symbols/clues, it doesn't mean, that they aren't there.

Which doesn't mean, that he will die. Though even if he wil die, it doesn't mean, that it will be a permanent death. Jesus also died, though later he was ressurected and became King of kings, and Lord of lords <- this is another parallel between Biblical symbolism and GRRM's books - the Stallion that will mount the world, was called Khal of Khals, which means king of kings. And it was said in the prophecy, that he will unite all Dothraki, and all people of the world will be his herd; And in the Bible Jesus was called shepherd, that will guide all nations.

So it seems, that GRRM is preparing big return from the dead, for both of them - Jon and Rhaego.

So we’ll see a dead lizard?

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1 minute ago, Angel Eyes said:

So we’ll see a dead lizard?

MMD lied to Dany about Rhaego. He didn't died, and he didn't looked like a dragon-hybrid. So we won't see any dead lizards (if we won't include GOT's Ice Dragon).

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How about my theory which breaks few ethical barriers except by accident

1.  Ned meets Ashara at Harrenhall and falls madly in love. However Ashara is raped by AERYS

2.  After her baby is born (probably really Aegon) Ashara wants to escape from Arys. She turns to Ned/Lyanna for help. She has met them and trusted them.

3. Lyanna is not abducted by Rhaegar but goes with him and Ashara to rescue her from the clutches of Aerys. Ashara manages to get away but Aerys captures Lyanna and Rhaegar.

4. Brandon gets together with Catelyn. Not a big deal. He is going to marry her. Call this time zero). Rob in conceived

5. Ned is up in the Vale - possibly involved in the plot to rescue Ashara.  He lives her and intends to marry her

6. Brandon goes hurtling off to the city and gets himself killed. along with his father. (about 2 weeks after T0

7. Ned flees the Vale and rushes home to call his banners  helped by the "fisherman's daughter" who is in fact Ashara. They marry and Jon is conceived. (about 4 weeks after Robb is conceived). 

8. The boat returning after delivering Ned to the North is capsized and Ned is told that all aboard died.

9. Ned get home, call his banners and perhaps 4 weeks later he gets to Riverrun, where he is confronted by an angry Hoster Tully, who realises that Catelyn is 8-10 weeks pregnant. Catelyn herself may not realise she is pregnant but Hoster aware of Lyssa's situation would send a servant to check on Catelyn as well.

10. Believing Ashara dead Ned marries Catelyn

11. 6-7 months later Robb is born

12.  5 months later After the Tower of Joy Ned travels to Starfell with a baby where he finds Ashara still alive and 5- 6 moths old Jon

13. He hangs about Starfell for quite some time. but eventually knows he must return home.

14. Ahara lerns that the child of Rhaella is in fact the child of her brother Arthur too.  She realises that she has a duty to that child too.

15 Ned decides to take the year old Jon home.  Ashara leaves - probably to Essos where she can help protect the baby Dany.

 

Sounds like a plot from the Bold and Beautiful -!!!

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