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42 minutes ago, Spockydog said:

Is there a chance the CIA assassinated Chavez?

You think they gave him a cancer virus?  CIA has actually been historically (and rather comically) bad at those type of assassinations.  Plus, so they killed him then...did what?  Allowed Maduro to consolidate power for six years?  So CIA is simultaneously incredibly competent at executing the assassination and either incredibly incompetent or incredibly lazy about pursuing the goals of the assassination.  Nah, that doesn't even have face validity.

34 minutes ago, Spockydog said:

But that does not excuse the US, and everyone else's, desire for an illegal regime change.

Recognizing Guaido instead of Maduro is not supporting an illegal regime change.  And if you look at the list of countries that support Guaido - which entail most of the western world including Latin America - as opposed to the list that supports Maduro - which largely entails Russia and Iran (and China and Syria) - I'll stick to the former, thanks. 

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10 minutes ago, Ser Scot A Ellison said:

I would absolutely support sanctions against Saudi.  That said your point is “the Fallacy of Relative Privation”.

Not really, i get that you can do things to improve situations that are "less" important than others. 

What im getting at is, why venezuela and not some other country that is doing the same or worse?. 

And i see that you wouldnt think the US deserves sanctions, why?. 

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17 minutes ago, Spockydog said:

Yeah, i forgot. There are real Christians, then there are American Christians. My bad. 

Thanks.  

The State and the Church should not be intertwined.  The State taking action I support does not mean I do not also support church action to mitigate the impact of State action toward those unfairly impacted by State action.

I absolutely do not believe in controlling State action based on religious principles. That makes the State and Church joint actors and as such violates the principles of separation of Church and State.

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1 hour ago, Ser Scot A Ellison said:

No.  I’m saying refusing to support Maduro is the right thing to do regardless of US geopolitical reasons for doing so.

There's no question Maduro is a bad leader at this point. The problem is, there's no guarantee that Guaido will be better for the Venezuelan people. I'm not sure why he should be seen as more legitimate than Maduro himself, and for some reason I'm deeply suspicious of his economic leanings among other things. The fact that the US and the West so readily support him doesn't exactly help in my book.

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15 minutes ago, Ser Scot A Ellison said:

Thanks.  

The State and the Church should not be intertwined.  The State taking action I support does not mean I do not also support church action to mitigate the impact of State action toward those unfairly impacted by State action.

I absolutely do not believe in controlling State action based on religious principles. That makes the State and Church joint actors and as such violates the principles of separation of Church and State.

That's just a load of lawyer speak, i.e. bollocks. If you were truly Christian (and not just cherrypicking whichever aspects of Christ's teachings that fit with your preferred lifestyle), you would not be supporting these policies. Though, from the outside looking in, this generally appears to be the way Christianity works in the US.

You say you'd wholeheartedly support santions against Saudi Arabia. Who do you think that is going to hurt?

Here's a better idea. Let's stop selling them weapons to to drop on the Yemeni. They don't make planes and guns and missiles themselves, you know.

 

 

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26 minutes ago, DMC said:

Uh, don't need to, but let's say I did.  I'm back.  So?

Ooh, there's nothing like a bit of wilful ignorance to get the debating juices flowing.

Here's a free fact. Certain types of cancer are caused by a virus.

You take that and run with it...

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2 minutes ago, Spockydog said:

Ooh, there's nothing like a bit of wilful ignorance to get the debating juices flowing.

It's pretty amusing watching a guy basically become a frontman for Maduro and accuse others of willful ignorance.

3 minutes ago, Spockydog said:

Here's a free fact. Certain types of cancer are caused by a virus.

You take that and run with it...

I'm the one that brought up cancer viruses in the first place.  One would think that's a clear indication I'm aware of their existence.

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14 minutes ago, DMC said:

It's pretty amusing watching a guy basically become a frontman for Maduro and accuse others of willful ignorance.

I'm the one that brought up cancer viruses in the first place.  One would think that's a clear indication I'm aware of their existence.

Oh, fuck off with that bullshit. I've already said he's not a good leader and there needs to be elections. Not this CIA/oil lobby puppet show.

And, regarding cancer viruses. Okay, what was your point, exactly? Do you have inside information on the successes and failures of the various projects that have attempted to weaponize the disease?

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30 minutes ago, Rippounet said:

There's no question Maduro is a bad leader at this point. The problem is, there's no guarantee that Guaido will be better for the Venezuelan people. I'm not sure why he should be seen as more legitimate than Maduro himself, and for some reason I'm deeply suspicious of his economic leanings among other things. The fact that the US and the West so readily support him doesn't exactly help in my book.

That’s why I support a new election as opposed to the immediate installation of Guadio as President.

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29 minutes ago, Spockydog said:

 

That's just a load of lawyer speak, i.e. bollocks. If you were truly Christian (and not just cherrypicking whichever aspects of Christ's teachings that fit with your preferred lifestyle), you would not be supporting these policies. Though, from the outside looking in, this generally appears to be the way Christianity works in the US.

You say you'd wholeheartedly support santions against Saudi Arabia. Who do you think that is going to hurt?

Here's a better idea. Let's stop selling them weapons to to drop on the Yemeni. They don't make planes and guns and missiles themselves, you know.

 

 

You are certainly entitled to the opinion that my statement is “just lawyerspeak”.

That said I’m curious would you say that I’m also not a Christian if I were unwilling to “turn the other cheek” and stand asside while people were beating members of my family?

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7 minutes ago, Spockydog said:

I've already said he's not a good leader and there needs to be elections. Not this CIA/oil lobby puppet show.

The US resolution explicitly called for new elections:

Quote

The failure to take action on the two competing drafts laid bare divisions among world powers over the way forward in Venezuela, which is mired in a political standoff and an economic meltdown.

The proposed US text -- which called for new presidential elections in Venezuela and unimpeded deliveries of humanitarian aid -- won the required nine votes at the 15-member council, but Moscow and Beijing joined forces to block it.

You said the US was backing "illegal regime change."  The Maduro regime is the illegal regime.  Ignoring that fact is the true willful ignorance and, yeah, you sound like a frontman when you focus solely on the US with their horrid history and insinuate ridiculous assassination conspiracies.

6 minutes ago, Spockydog said:

Do you have inside information on the successes and failures of the various projects that have attempted to weaponize the disease?

No, but there is public information on the CIA's historic failure when attempting such James Bond-esque assassinations.  That was my original point, and essentially exactly what I originally said.

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11 minutes ago, DMC said:

No, but there is public information on the CIA's historic failure when attempting such James Bond-esque assassinations.  That was my original point, and essentially exactly what I originally said.

So you're saying the CIA are so rubbish they never managed to assassinate anyone? Okay then.

And the reason I am focusing on the US is because they are the fucking architects of this situation. To claim otherwise is some Westworld-doesn't look like anything to me me-level bullshit.

The CIA has a long history of helping to kill leaders around the world

Quote

US intelligence agency has since 1945 succeeded in deposing or killing a string of leaders, but was forced to cut back after a Senate investigation in the 1970s

Yeah, I'm sure they gave it all up 'cos the Senate told them to.

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6 minutes ago, Spockydog said:

So you're saying the CIA are so rubbish they never managed to assassinate anyone? Okay then.

Ugh, no.  I'm saying the CIA assassinations that we know happened are all rather obvious and not "covert" in a Hollywood-espionage way like giving Chavez cancer.  The documented attempts to do such type of things all failed and were rather hilariously and poorly contrived.  If Chavez choked on a ham sandwich there's be reports that the CIA is weaponizing ham sandwiches.

10 minutes ago, Spockydog said:

And the reason I am focusing on the US is because they are the fucking architects of this situation. To claim otherwise is some Westworld-doesn't look like anything to me me-level bullshit.

Explain then please to my poor stupid and unenlightened self.  The US are the architects of Maduro's farce of an election?  Of him winning election in 2013 after Chavez died?  The US sure sounds confused.  

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Venezuela is in deep shit due to the collapse in oil prices and the fact that the US is basically self sufficient in oil and does not need to buy oil from Venezuela any more. The mostly right wing province of Alberta up here in Canada is in the same straits but we do not blame the CIA . We blame Trudeau.

As for the CIA being competent, if Trump didn't get into real estate he would have been in the CIA. 

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Do sanctions ever actually work for regime change? I've got no numbers for this and haven't got the time right now to go looking, so I might be wrong, but their biggest effect in many cases seems to be to make regime change less likely by (1) giving the regime in question an outside enemy to focus attention away from them and (2) lessen the kind of trade-based cultural exchange and therefore pressure that, long-term, can increase the will and the opportunity to push the regime to collapse. ie, in the long term sanctions just make it easier for the regime to manipulate the people.

(it's a long held belief of my dad's, who would know, that Jimmy Carter's softening stance on the Soviet Union is a big part of the reason it eventually fell)

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