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25 minutes ago, DMC said:

Are you saying the CIA somehow caused Maduro to call for those elections?

Who knows what one might do with the CIA and full apparatus of the US government all up in your shit, trying to kill you and/or your family.

25 minutes ago, DMC said:

As for "installing a US puppet," uh, that's much easier said then done.  I don't know what their activities are regarding this - although I'm sure they are in contact with many if not most opposition leaders - and neither do you.  And who's the puppet exactly?  Guaido?  Please.

Why not Guaido? As good a patsy as anyone, no? Seems to be Trump's preferred choice.

25 minutes ago, DMC said:

 It's never only "all about oil."

For your Commander in Thief, it most certainly is. For everyone else, it's because of an irrational fear of any kind of socialism - especially right on the doorstep. And oil.

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6 minutes ago, The Anti-Targ said:

Technically, sham elections don't cause economic crises. Most of the time sham elections happen when a country is already in crises and the current regime knows that a legit election would probably boot them from office. Often how the rich countries of the world react to sham elections exacerbates economic problems in said country, because they do hard and soft shit to damage the country's economic base.

Venezuela's economic fortunes should mostly be tied to the price of oil. Even a corrupt regime can still deliver an economy with a reasonable standard of living to its people if it has a steady cashflow coming in to the country. I might be way off base here, but I think if Venezuela had been left to its own devices and simply allowed to play in the oil market as freely as everyone else the country would not be as badly off as it is right now. It might still be pretty bad relative to North America and Europe, but it would still be roughly OK.

Here's an article linked from @Spockydog's posted article upthread.  Did US sanctions - namely EO 13808 - exacerbate the loss in oil production/exports?  Most certainly.  But that EO was issued in August of 2017, plainly in response to Maduro illegitimately calling and holding Assembly elections.  Moreover, while that EO has been very effective in crippling Venezuela's oil "industry" (really just the PDVSA), a lot of the reason it's been so successful is because of systemic problems in the government and economy of Venezuela.

12 minutes ago, Spockydog said:

Who knows what one might do with the CIA and full apparatus of the US government all up in your shit, trying to kill you and/or your family.

This type of logic means any behavior by US adversaries can just be summarily chalked up to the CIA.  Which is intellectually ludicrous but clearly what you're going for.

13 minutes ago, Spockydog said:

Why not Guaido? As good a patsy as anyone, no? Seems to be Trump's preferred choice.

Do you have any actual evidence that Guaido is acting as a puppet?  Dude went on a hunger strike in 2015 to call for elections.  Doesn't seem the type.

16 minutes ago, Spockydog said:

For everyone else, it's because of an irrational fear of any kind of socialism - especially right on the doorstep. And oil.

Way to prove my point, thanks.

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18 minutes ago, Spockydog said:

Who knows what one might do with the CIA and full apparatus of the US government all up in your shit, trying to kill you and/or your family.

Why not Guaido? As good a patsy as anyone, no? Seems to be Trump's preferred choice.

For your Commander in Thief, it most certainly is. For everyone else, it's because of an irrational fear of any kind of socialism - especially right on the doorstep. And oil.

Alberta in Canada has as much oil as Venezuela. It also has a socialist NDP government. The US has no interest in our oil and as a result the price is a fraction of the world price. We are more than on the doorstep to the US but no sign of regime change or sanctions. 

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6 minutes ago, maarsen said:

Alberta in Canada has as much oil as Venezuela. It also has a socialist NDP government. The US has no interest in our oil and as a result the price is a fraction of the world price. We are more than on the doorstep to the US but no sign of regime change or sanctions. 

Yes, but Canadians are, for the most part, white.

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7 minutes ago, A True Kaniggit said:

You are aware like 40% of Venezuelans are white? European colonists and all that.

They are the minority, the former ruling class. And they are the people Trump is supporting. Your brave marines will no doubt have orders to shoot only brown people.

And it's more like 21%.

 

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6 hours ago, maarsen said:

Alberta in Canada has as much oil as Venezuela. It also has a socialist NDP government. The US has no interest in our oil and as a result the price is a fraction of the world price. We are more than on the doorstep to the US but no sign of regime change or sanctions. 

This a joke? 

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6 hours ago, Conflicting Thought said:

This a joke? 

Not for the Alberta government. They really do want the US to take the oil. Pressure is being put on the federal government to approve a pipeline to the Pacific Ocean so the oil can be shipped to non US customers. 

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17 hours ago, Conflicting Thought said:

This a joke? 

The difference is, while we have a staggering amount of oil it’s locked up in the so-called tar sands and it’s difficult to extract, wherea Venezuela is chock full of light, sweet crude that’s easy to load on a ship and drop off at a Gulf coast oil refinery.

In the meantime California has banned the sale of Canadian oil sands oil in the state. But the oil gets shipped to the US, about 25% of the US supply, at such a frigging low cost the country of Canada is basically subsidizing the SUV drivers of America.

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55 minutes ago, Fragile Bird said:

The difference is, while we have a staggering amount of oil it’s locked up in the so-called tar sands and it’s difficult to extract, wherea Venezuela is chock full of light, sweet crude that’s easy to load on a ship and drop off at a Gulf coast oil refinery.

In the meantime California has banned the sale of Canadian oil sands oil in the state. But the oil gets shipped to the US, about 25% of the US supply, at such a frigging low cost the country of Canada is basically subsidizing the SUV drivers of America.

And the  minor thing of the sociopolitical context and history being completly different.  

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14 minutes ago, Conflicting Thought said:

And the  minor thing of the sociopolitical context and history being completly different.  

Trust me, Canadians laugh nervously about being invaded by the US. Not for oil, though, for fresh water. But oils might come into it in the future.

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1 hour ago, Conflicting Thought said:

And the  minor thing of the sociopolitical context and history being completly different.  

Not all that different, the US interferes in Canadian politics rather regularly, and has invaded us twice. The general solution to this is to try and keep the US friendly and work out mutually beneficial compromises, but your recent president is making that difficult.

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28 minutes ago, TrueMetis said:

Not all that different, the US interferes in Canadian politics rather regularly, and has invaded us twice. The general solution to this is to try and keep the US friendly and work out mutually beneficial compromises, but your recent president is making that difficult.

The last invasion of Canadian by US forces was more than two centuries ago, before “Canada” actually existed.  Do you really think such an invasion is actually likely?

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9 minutes ago, Ser Scot A Ellison said:

The last invasion of Canadian by US forces was more than two centuries ago, before “Canada” actually existed.  Do you really think such an invasion is actually likely?

Increasingly.

Also don't pull that before Canada actually existed crap. Canada has been called Canada since long before confederation. The name Canada has been in use since the 16th century.

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57 minutes ago, TrueMetis said:

Not all that different, the US interferes in Canadian politics rather regularly, and has invaded us twice. The general solution to this is to try and keep the US friendly and work out mutually beneficial compromises, but your recent president is making that difficult.

Im from south america, so pls "dont put that evil on me". 

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29 minutes ago, TrueMetis said:

Increasingly.

Also don't pull that before Canada actually existed crap. Canada has been called Canada since long before confederation. The name Canada has been in use since the 16th century.

The last invasion was still more than two centuries ago and the US was repulsed with serious losses both times.

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3 hours ago, Fragile Bird said:

Venezuela is chock full of light, sweet crude that’s easy to load on a ship and drop off at a Gulf coast oil refinery.

Venezuelan crude is heavy and sour. It needs specialised processing hence it is harder to sell and more expensive to refine. Guyana has sweet crude which would have absolutely nothing to do with Venezuelan claims over part of its territory...

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2 hours ago, Ser Scot A Ellison said:

The last invasion of Canadian by US forces was more than two centuries ago, before “Canada” actually existed.  Do you really think such an invasion is actually likely?

When it comes to water? Bloody hell yes. Wait until climate change screws up the US some more.

1 hour ago, Ser Scot A Ellison said:

The last invasion was still more than two centuries ago and the US was repulsed with serious losses both times.

"Snorts"

You think the US would sustain heavy losses if it rolled over Canada now?

51 minutes ago, Squab said:

Venezuelan crude is heavy and sour. It needs specialised processing hence it is harder to sell and more expensive to refine. Guyana has sweet crude which would have absolutely nothing to do with Venezuelan claims over part of its territory...

Lol, a Venezuelan friend (who just returned after 3 months looking after a dying uncle and has awful stories to tell) told me it was light sweet. I see now he was wrong. However, while heavy by international standards, it's still less difficult than Canadian oil sands oil. And, Venezuela has more proven reserves than Saudi Arabia.

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19 hours ago, Fragile Bird said:

Lol, a Venezuelan friend (who just returned after 3 months looking after a dying uncle and has awful stories to tell) told me it was light sweet. I see now he was wrong. However, while heavy by international standards, it's still less difficult than Canadian oil sands oil. And, Venezuela has more proven reserves than Saudi Arabia.

Venezuelan proven reserves includes their version of tar sands. In fact it makes up most of their proven reserves. 77.5 billion barrels of heavy sour crude (still a lot) is recoverable by conventional means. If you look at a graph of oil reserves over time you can see almost everyone is doing enough resource evaluation to move their reserves to proven and it usually jumps up in steps as new basins are proven. Venezuela have spent last 15 or so years proving up their tar sands which is why they now have worlds largest proven reserves.

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