How was the 5 year gap ever going to work?

[Canon Claude]

A lot has been said over GRRM initially planning to have a jump forward five years somewhere in the story and follow the characters after they’ve aged and evolved. Apparently he’s given up this idea, which makes him having to scramble and try to make sense of his story. But frankly, I question how the five year gap was ever meant to do anything except complicate things. Five years is a LONG time to just drop some of these conflicts. How was GRRM ever supposed to make that work? The main characters like Cersei weren’t just going to sit back and do nothing for five years, so GRRM would have had to spend a lot of time recapping what happened, making it pointless to jump forward so far in the first place.

[Lollygag]

The best aspect of GRRM's writing for me is his characterization. I don't know how one would maintain that high-level treatment with a five year gap. It would be possible with adults who can pass years in routines and be little changed, but for any of the younger characters, I just don't know how it could be done well. 5 years makes one drastically different in childhood and teen stages and these times are so very formative. To skip over them...

[Faera]

While it would have benefited Bran, Arya, Sansa, the two Edrics and Cersei's kids in terms of the sort of plot lines he could use it would ultimately have been like going back to A Game of Thrones. It would need to be a brand new situation with all the older characters thinking about events that happened in the past and being evasive with it.

Personally, he simply needed to sort out his pacing better and just let time pass at a faster rate while telling the story. That way he could have aged up the child characters without any gaps.

[Sourjapes]

I don't see what the problem with a five year gap is. Makes sense that after the losses of the War of Five Kings that the various players would want to sit pretty for a few years and replenish their armies. You can flesh out what happened during that period with characters just reflecting on it a bit.

[Cas Stark]

I always thought it would have worked really well for almost all the characters ,the only potential problem would be Stannis, I think he would have had to maybe spend 5 years begging an army in Essos or something and then have him land in the North at the opening.  otherwise....Cersei rules and her incompetence would be coming to a head...Arya trains for 5 years, and we would see her closer to her return where everything in Dance would have been her condensed memories, Sansa chills with LF, Jon is commander and same w/Cersei, his dealings with wildlings coming to a head to create the betrayal, Bran is in the North, Rickon is MIA, Dany rules, and 5 years much better time frame for that, Boltons consolidate their power....he might also have trouble with Theon's story...but on balance, seems much much better than running in place for 2 or 3 books and 20 years.

[Canon Claude]

1 hour ago, Cas Stark said:

I always thought it would have worked really well for almost all the characters ,the only potential problem would be Stannis, I think he would have had to maybe spend 5 years begging an army in Essos or something and then have him land in the North at the opening.  otherwise....Cersei rules and her incompetence would be coming to a head...Arya trains for 5 years, and we would see her closer to her return where everything in Dance would have been her condensed memories, Sansa chills with LF, Jon is commander and same w/Cersei, his dealings with wildlings coming to a head to create the betrayal, Bran is in the North, Rickon is MIA, Dany rules, and 5 years much better time frame for that, Boltons consolidate their power....he might also have trouble with Theon's story...but on balance, seems much much better than running in place for 2 or 3 books and 20 years.

That’s actually a pretty convincing scenario, but the problem is that some characters will not just sit back for five years. As you said, Stannis wouldn’t be able to just hang back nor would he want to do that. Cersei is so incompetent that her rule would never last five years, as we see. Plus Sansa and Tyrion’s stories don’t leave a healthy place for a time jump (although admittedly, Bran and Rickon and Arya’s stories would hugely benefit from a time jump).

[Nevets]

1 hour ago, Canon Claude said:

That’s actually a pretty convincing scenario, but the problem is that some characters will not just sit back for five years. As you said, Stannis wouldn’t be able to just hang back nor would he want to do that. Cersei is so incompetent that her rule would never last five years, as we see. Plus Sansa and Tyrion’s stories don’t leave a healthy place for a time jump (although admittedly, Bran and Rickon and Arya’s stories would hugely benefit from a time jump).

That's essentially why he abandoned it.  He came to the conclusion that Stannis and Cersei, in particular, weren't going to sit still for that long.  It worked well for younger characters, but he kept having to do lots of flashbacks for events at the Wall and Kings Landing, and eventually gave it up.   I myself think a couple of 1 or 2 year gaps would work well in the next book, though.  At the very least he needs to have more time pass than in the others.

[Vhagar's Ghost]

You know I find it weird how AGOT, ASOS, ACOK, AFFC, and ADWD all take place over like, a two year period. That's a lot of things happening in a very short span of time, imo almost too much, so a time jump could've helped.

On the other hand five years is a really long time, it works for younger characters but not people like Stannis, Tyrion, or Cersei. Imo a time jump of maybe a year or two is more reasonable and doable.

[Lollygag]

3 minutes ago, Nevets said:

That's essentially why he abandoned it.  He came to the conclusion that Stannis and Cersei, in particular, weren't going to sit still for that long.  It worked well for younger characters, but he kept having to do lots of flashbacks for events at the Wall and Kings Landing, and eventually gave it up.   I myself think a couple of 1 or 2 year gaps would work well in the next book, though.  At the very least he needs to have more time pass than in the others.

I think something like this might work, especially if a year or so is broken down as a longer time between chapters. It seems like there's a larger than usual time gap in Arya's and Sansa's TWOW chapters but I didn't find this jarring to their characterization at all. It flowed quite smoothly for me.

Maybe the weather and shorter days could help. Longer travel times/logistical problems could account for more time between chapters adding up aging the characters faster but without skipping milestones and major experiences which mold the characters.

Still, might be hard to juggle this between so many POVs, so I don't know.

[Euron III Greyjoy]

3 hours ago, Canon Claude said:

A lot has been said over GRRM initially planning to have a jump forward five years somewhere in the story and follow the characters after they’ve aged and evolved. Apparently he’s given up this idea, which makes him having to scramble and try to make sense of his story. But frankly, I question how the five year gap was ever meant to do anything except complicate things. Five years is a LONG time to just drop some of these conflicts. How was GRRM ever supposed to make that work? The main characters like Cersei weren’t just going to sit back and do nothing for five years, so GRRM would have had to spend a lot of time recapping what happened, making it pointless to jump forward so far in the first place.

I imagine the reason he gave up on it was because he realized it wouldn't work. I cant remember for sure, but I think he said something along the lines of how the 5 year time jump worked for some characters, for example Daenerys would have had 5 years in Meereen making her a more experience ruler, but it wouldn't have worked for others. 

Obviously I cant say for sure, but I feel like if there was a 5 year time jump, then characters like Edric Dayne would have been much more prominent instead of that one line he got in the third book. GRRM probably had a story arc about him grown up working towards becoming the next Sword of the Morning or something. 

[Nevets]

7 minutes ago, Lollygag said:

I think something like this might work, especially if a year or so is broken down as a longer time between chapters. It seems like there's a larger than usual time gap in Arya's and Sansa's TWOW chapters but I didn't find this jarring to their characterization at all. It flowed quite smoothly for me.

Maybe the weather and shorter days could help. Longer travel times/logistical problems could account for more time between chapters adding up aging the characters faster but without skipping milestones and major experiences which mold the characters.

Still, might be hard to juggle this between so many POVs, so I don't know.

Given how spread out geographically the characters are, any time skips wouldn't have to be simultaneous.  And certain events, like Dany's return to Westeros, could take several months during which nothing would be happening.

[Lollygag]

Just now, Nevets said:

Given how spread out geographically the characters are, any time skips wouldn't have to be simultaneous.  And certain events, like Dany's return to Westeros, could take several months during which nothing would be happening.

Agree.

[kissdbyfire]

5 hours ago, Canon Claude said:

A lot has been said over GRRM initially planning to have a jump forward five years somewhere in the story and follow the characters after they’ve aged and evolved. Apparently he’s given up this idea, which makes him having to scramble and try to make sense of his story. But frankly, I question how the five year gap was ever meant to do anything except complicate things. Five years is a LONG time to just drop some of these conflicts. How was GRRM ever supposed to make that work? The main characters like Cersei weren’t just going to sit back and do nothing for five years, so GRRM would have had to spend a lot of time recapping what happened, making it pointless to jump forward so far in the first place.

He couldn't make it work, and that's why he dropped it. Jon thinking, "Well, I have been LC of the NW for a while now and nothing has happened in 5 yrs" (paraphrasing) is the example Martin has given, and it's a very good one. 

I think the whole age issue ( that's what the 5 yr gap would achieve mostly) wouldn't have been an issue at all if he'd started w/ all the younger characters being a tad older.

[Kandrax]

Younger character would have use from gap, but there would be problem for others. 

Stannis would just sit at Castle Black, doing nothing and Brienne would just wander Riverland for 5 years, for example.

I will just note that there is theory that Pretty Merris represents Brienne after gap.

[kissdbyfire]

2 hours ago, Lollygag said:

I think something like this might work, especially if a year or so is broken down as a longer time between chapters. It seems like there's a larger than usual time gap in Arya's and Sansa's TWOW chapters but I didn't find this jarring to their characterization at all. It flowed quite smoothly for me.

Maybe the weather and shorter days could help. Longer travel times/logistical problems could account for more time between chapters adding up aging the characters faster but without skipping milestones and major experiences which mold the characters.

This is very interesting, and I think it could work very well indeed.

2 hours ago, Lollygag said:

Still, might be hard to juggle this between so many POVs, so I don't know.

But that's always going to be the case, isn't it?

[Tagganaro]

2 hours ago, kissdbyfire said:

He couldn't make it work, and that's why he dropped it. Jon thinking, "Well, I have been LC of the NW for a while now and nothing has happened in 5 yrs" (paraphrasing) is the example Martin has given, and it's a very good one. 

I think the whole age issue ( that's what the 5 yr gap would achieve mostly) wouldn't have been an issue at all if he'd started w/ all the younger characters being a tad older.

This exactly.  I can't see how the 5 year gap would work for any characters except Arya and maybe Sansa.  Is Bran just becoming a tree for 5 years chilling in that death cave?  Are you really gonna have the Others still not invade 5 years later?  Jon, Dany, Stannis, Cersei, Brienne...I really can't think of a single character other than those 2 it could possibly even work for.  

[The Sleeper]

There are ways it could have worked, but it would require significant changes to the plot. And a significantly different current story.

The Others are probably the easier to deal with. As the seasons are unreliable it is free to follow the plots requirements. He could have a false spring or something driving them back and putting them on hold. Even having Cersei playing house with Margaery would have been viable with Kevan or Jaime reigning her in. The Ironborn are a different proposition, Euron is not the kind to sit quietly, though I suppose if Aeron hadn't called the kingsmoot he would have needed quite a bit more time to consolidate power.

The setup didn't make the work for a gap and/or he wasn't satisfied with what he would have to do to make it work. The way he set up the next stage feels very organic to me.

Even with Arya and Sansa, I think that if we were reintroduced to them after five years they would feel like completely different characters.

This means however that we should expect to see very different battle lines drawn that we expect. For instance, we could expect the North to be largely overrun by the Others for the remainder of the series.

As mentioned there is one event that will take its time. Dany cannot come to Westeros in less than a year. Unless she goes on her own on Drogon's back.

[Frey Kings]

How would a 5 year gap even open? Should've been a 1-2 year gap. Just have the characters travel around or locked up. 

[hodorisfaclessman]

17 minutes ago, Frey Kings said:

How would a 5 year gap even open? Should've been a 1-2 year gap. Just have the characters travel around or locked up. 

It would  bave been differrnt to the booke we know and love .......wish hed rememberer to readjust  the ages though drogo and dany is just creepy on reread without adding 3-4 years to her age in your head

[Frey Kings]

1 hour ago, hodorisfaclessman said:

It would  bave been differrnt to the booke we know and love .......wish hed rememberer to readjust  the ages though drogo and dany is just creepy on reread without adding 3-4 years to her age in your head

Probably 75% of readers when reading don't really read too much into the details, you could probably could get away with 2 year gap if you make everyone journey around and prolong certain events like sieges and trials and throw in subplots on top of more subplots. 

 

5 year gap just wouldn't make sense