A Song of Two Diametrically Opposing Things

[MostlyMoody]

So I was standing in the shower the other day contemplating my mortality and then I thought about the title of the books - a Song of Ice and Fire, which lead me to start this hopefully not too convoluted idea for a post.

The point of this is to invite a new kind of conversation/discussion, less focused on the details and more on the narrative structures of the book and themes.

 

I don't know if I should call this a theory. I'd rather call it 'an observation of the books narrative', more specifically the grand narrative that is mostly rooted in symbolism, ideas and parallels to other, older stories.

Disclaimer: I am going to say a thing and then backtrack on it to elaborate, because often on its own it will sound silly. I may obviously be wrong about all of this, but as someone who has read a bunch and studied writing, I feel like sharing my thoughts nevertheless.

Disclaimer x2: I am not a writer and my only credentials to discuss this are years in college studying writing, an internship and overwhelming interest in storytelling.

---

To start off: the core conflict of the story is between Bran and Jaime. More broadly it is between Others and Humans. Even more broadly it's between Darkness and Light. Now, this isn't to say that this is 'what the books are about', the books are about horrors of war, faults of feudal systems, identities and of course 'The human heart in conflict with itself'. However, the conflict between darkness and light is the most common theme in storytelling since we ever began telling stories to each other. Now, this is where the title comes in. A Song of Ice and Fire. I imagine the common consensus is that it is to do with either Jon Snow and Dany or White Walkers and Dragons. That would be the literal, obvious analogy. The more obvious, but less literal analogy is that it is referring to two diametrically opposed forces – light and darkness, fire and ice, humans and 'the others'.

 

Why Bran and Jaime? If we were smart little detectives, and we made a web of connections investigating the events of the books, the two would be bang in the middle. They are the catalyst of the entire story and in my mind they are the clearest analogy to what I proposed and to Norse mythology, specifically Ragnarok (From which George has pulled heavily when it comes to themes and broad strokes in storytelling). To poorly retell the beginning in my own words: Tyr binds Fenrir by putting his hand in the wolf's mouth. For this, Fenrir bites off Tyr's hand. Come Ragnarok, Fenrir breaks free and what follows is the battle between Giants and Gods.

 

So who are Giants and Gods analogous to in our story? Humans and the Others (From now on I will refer to every race besides humans as Others for the sake of brevity). They are the two diametrically opposed forces in our big picture. From the history of ASOIAF we can gather that this conflict was ever present (Until humans ‘won’) and cuts the world into two sides that seemingly can not, or at least could not coexist.

---

Bran and Darkness.

It’s no secret that Bran has been largely associated with the magical aspects of our story along with Dany. Now, what’s more divisive and what I am proposing is that he will be on the same side as the White Walkers. There is an idea that Children and White Walkers have been aligned in some form in the past or even present, by proxy that could also mean the same of Bloodraven who has been beyond the wall for decades hooked up to a Weirwood, cared for by some of the Children.

From his POV’s we learn that Bran is becoming more and more in alignment with the Others. He loses his ability to walk and thus his dreams of becoming a knight; he dislikes his time as Prince of Winterfell; he is betrayed by Theon, witnesses more cruelty and death, and has to leave his home; as he travels, Bran becomes more and more detached and more comfortable ‘being’ Summer; and now as he is in Bloodraven’s cave who has been guiding him so far, is now under the tutelage of the Three-Eyed Crow. In short, he is becoming less human, more single minded and connected to the natural world and magic, same as the Children, same as the White Walkers.

Much like Loki and Fenrir, Bloodraven and Bran had been bound and imprisoned by those they once thought were one of them. Beyond the wall, exiled from humanity and, having the power of seeing through time and space they see the big picture, the cyclical nature of the world: the long night that comes along and destroys, so something new can be born.

"The strongest trees are rooted in the dark places of the earth. Darkness will be your cloak, your shield, your mother's milk. Darkness will make you strong."

 

Jaime and Light.

If Bran is our main POV of the magical world, then Jaime is the representative of humanity as a whole. As probably the ‘greyest’ and polarizing character in the books, at the core he encapsulates humanity in a single dense package. Jaime is a walking talking contradiction from a narrative point of view. He is an oathbreaker but he is also honorable, he is cruel but also kind, he cares not for rules but is just, he fucks his sister but he is faithful, he doesn’t care for his children but loves his family. Jaime is the best and worst humanity has to offer, a perfect champion.

Symbolically he is always associated with light, never darkness. The lion on his sigil, the golden armor he wore as he killed Aerys, the dreams in which he carries a flaming sword through the darkness.

As Bran is Fenrir, Jaime is represented by Tyr in Rangarok, he is the leader of the Gods and opposes the Giants. Once the war between two sides begins, Tyr meets Fenrir whom he bound once again; unshackled, free and angry.

“There are no men like me. There is only me.”

---

Now none of what I said is supposed to undermine the characters and paint them in a singular way. As I mentioned their stories are more than being the champions of Darkness and Light. They both struggle with their identities, their families, their losses and futures, they are still people, but this is about what they represent to the narrative.

 

Also, Light and Darkness are largely thought of as good and bad, which can be blamed on many of the same old stories that do so (But maybe it is because those stories are written by humans and humans represent light). It is Yin and Yang and one does not exist without the other.

 

Darkness is whole and united; Children, Weirwoods and the White Walkers are too, they are not individuals, they are a network, a hive-mind.

Light divides and cast shadows; humans are complex, irrational and conflicted.

 

I will likely add on to this as I am sure my scatterbrained thoughts aren’t all here yet but I would love to see what the rest of you guys think on this. How do other characters fit into the larger whole? Opposing ideas? Parallels to other stories and connections to them?

[ApostolinO]

10 hours ago, MostlyMoody said:

Symbolically Jaime is always associated with light, never darkness. The lion on his sigil, the golden armor he wore as he killed Aerys, the dreams in which he carries a flaming sword through the darkness.
 

A face swam up at him out of the grey mist, shining with light, golden. "The things I do for love," it said  - Bran III AGOT

Bran even dreams about him being shining with light in his first dream.

 

Jaime was deemed an oathbreaker with shit for honor because he killed the king, but we as readers know he was being a hero and saved thousands. Now Jaime is deemed a monster for trying to kill Bran (even thought he failed).This could be another action that could save thousands, assuming of course that Bran is sided with the Others.

[MostlyMoody]

3 hours ago, ApostolinO said:

A face swam up at him out of the grey mist, shining with light, golden. "The things I do for love," it said  - Bran III AGOT

Bran even dreams about him being shining with light in his first dream.

 

Jaime was deemed an oathbreaker with shit for honor because he killed the king, but we as readers know he was being a hero and saved thousands. Now Jaime is deemed a monster for trying to kill Bran (even thought he failed).This could be another action that could save thousands, assuming of course that Bran is sided with the Others.

Good catch on the Bran's dream, I had forgotten about that.

I'd say Jaime crippling Bran sets him on the path to become who he is now, so it's not a 'good' action necessarily. It sent him to Bloodraven who will bring him over to the side of Darkness. Tyr binds Fenrir through guile and treachery, which makes the wolf more angry and dangerous. On the opposite, Jaime losing his hand is an indirect consequence of him pushing Bran out of the window, which sets him on his own path.

[chrisdaw]

Ice is cold hard calculated decision making, a frozen heart, end game Jon. Fire is passionate emotive decision making, a fiery heart, end game Dany. A Song of Ice and Fire is an argument for moderation, against going wholly the one way.

[Darth Sidious]

18 hours ago, MostlyMoody said:

So I was standing in the shower the other day contemplating my mortality and then I thought about the title of the books - a Song of Ice and Fire, which lead me to start this hopefully not too convoluted idea for a post.

The point of this is to invite a new kind of conversation/discussion, less focused on the details and more on the narrative structures of the book and themes.

 

I don't know if I should call this a theory. I'd rather call it 'an observation of the books narrative', more specifically the grand narrative that is mostly rooted in symbolism, ideas and parallels to other, older stories.

Disclaimer: I am going to say a thing and then backtrack on it to elaborate, because often on its own it will sound silly. I may obviously be wrong about all of this, but as someone who has read a bunch and studied writing, I feel like sharing my thoughts nevertheless.

Disclaimer x2: I am not a writer and my only credentials to discuss this are years in college studying writing, an internship and overwhelming interest in storytelling.

---

To start off: the core conflict of the story is between Bran and Jaime. More broadly it is between Others and Humans. Even more broadly it's between Darkness and Light. Now, this isn't to say that this is 'what the books are about', the books are about horrors of war, faults of feudal systems, identities and of course 'The human heart in conflict with itself'. However, the conflict between darkness and light is the most common theme in storytelling since we ever began telling stories to each other. Now, this is where the title comes in. A Song of Ice and Fire. I imagine the common consensus is that it is to do with either Jon Snow and Dany or White Walkers and Dragons. That would be the literal, obvious analogy. The more obvious, but less literal analogy is that it is referring to two diametrically opposed forces – light and darkness, fire and ice, humans and 'the others'.

 

Why Bran and Jaime? If we were smart little detectives, and we made a web of connections investigating the events of the books, the two would be bang in the middle. They are the catalyst of the entire story and in my mind they are the clearest analogy to what I proposed and to Norse mythology, specifically Ragnarok (From which George has pulled heavily when it comes to themes and broad strokes in storytelling). To poorly retell the beginning in my own words: Tyr binds Fenrir by putting his hand in the wolf's mouth. For this, Fenrir bites off Tyr's hand. Come Ragnarok, Fenrir breaks free and what follows is the battle between Giants and Gods.

 

So who are Giants and Gods analogous to in our story? Humans and the Others (From now on I will refer to every race besides humans as Others for the sake of brevity). They are the two diametrically opposed forces in our big picture. From the history of ASOIAF we can gather that this conflict was ever present (Until humans ‘won’) and cuts the world into two sides that seemingly can not, or at least could not coexist.

---

Bran and Darkness.

It’s no secret that Bran has been largely associated with the magical aspects of our story along with Dany. Now, what’s more divisive and what I am proposing is that he will be on the same side as the White Walkers. There is an idea that Children and White Walkers have been aligned in some form in the past or even present, by proxy that could also mean the same of Bloodraven who has been beyond the wall for decades hooked up to a Weirwood, cared for by some of the Children.

From his POV’s we learn that Bran is becoming more and more in alignment with the Others. He loses his ability to walk and thus his dreams of becoming a knight; he dislikes his time as Prince of Winterfell; he is betrayed by Theon, witnesses more cruelty and death, and has to leave his home; as he travels, Bran becomes more and more detached and more comfortable ‘being’ Summer; and now as he is in Bloodraven’s cave who has been guiding him so far, is now under the tutelage of the Three-Eyed Crow. In short, he is becoming less human, more single minded and connected to the natural world and magic, same as the Children, same as the White Walkers.

Much like Loki and Fenrir, Bloodraven and Bran had been bound and imprisoned by those they once thought were one of them. Beyond the wall, exiled from humanity and, having the power of seeing through time and space they see the big picture, the cyclical nature of the world: the long night that comes along and destroys, so something new can be born.

"The strongest trees are rooted in the dark places of the earth. Darkness will be your cloak, your shield, your mother's milk. Darkness will make you strong."

 

Jaime and Light.

If Bran is our main POV of the magical world, then Jaime is the representative of humanity as a whole. As probably the ‘greyest’ and polarizing character in the books, at the core he encapsulates humanity in a single dense package. Jaime is a walking talking contradiction from a narrative point of view. He is an oathbreaker but he is also honorable, he is cruel but also kind, he cares not for rules but is just, he fucks his sister but he is faithful, he doesn’t care for his children but loves his family. Jaime is the best and worst humanity has to offer, a perfect champion.

Symbolically he is always associated with light, never darkness. The lion on his sigil, the golden armor he wore as he killed Aerys, the dreams in which he carries a flaming sword through the darkness.

As Bran is Fenrir, Jaime is represented by Tyr in Rangarok, he is the leader of the Gods and opposes the Giants. Once the war between two sides begins, Tyr meets Fenrir whom he bound once again; unshackled, free and angry.

“There are no men like me. There is only me.”

---

Now none of what I said is supposed to undermine the characters and paint them in a singular way. As I mentioned their stories are more than being the champions of Darkness and Light. They both struggle with their identities, their families, their losses and futures, they are still people, but this is about what they represent to the narrative.

 

Also, Light and Darkness are largely thought of as good and bad, which can be blamed on many of the same old stories that do so (But maybe it is because those stories are written by humans and humans represent light). It is Yin and Yang and one does not exist without the other.

 

Darkness is whole and united; Children, Weirwoods and the White Walkers are too, they are not individuals, they are a network, a hive-mind.

Light divides and cast shadows; humans are complex, irrational and conflicted.

 

I will likely add on to this as I am sure my scatterbrained thoughts aren’t all here yet but I would love to see what the rest of you guys think on this. How do other characters fit into the larger whole? Opposing ideas? Parallels to other stories and connections to them?

The reality that we call the universe consists of both light and dark.  Fire and ice.  Hot and cold.  Neither are bad in of themselves because together they make up the whole.  The big picture is the ebb and the flow of life.  Life flourishes and multiplies in warmth.  But the cold is necessary to keep life in balance by reducing life.  

Jaime helping Bran out of that window set Bran on the path to darkness, according to your theory.  Though I think it's Jon who will switch to the Other side.  The conflict will be between Fire/Daenerys and Ice/Jon.  But anyway, so let's run with your theory and say it is Bran who will go to the Other side.  You say Jaime represents humanity with all its faults and virtues.  I guess you can say it is all the fault of man because Jaime set Bran on the path of darkness when he took away his other options.   George always puts the blame on human nature for why things go all screwy.   Crippling Bran took away his dreams of becoming a knight and fathering children.  Thus, it makes it easier for him to accept the Cup of Ice that Bloodraven is offering him.   The first attempt to seduce the Stark children to Ice came with the direwolf cubs.  Bran needed an additional push because what boy would want to graft himself to a tree.  

[MostlyMoody]

Daenerys is interesting. Her story is rooted in magic, dragons and prophecy (Among other more personal things). I would hazard a guess that in the large tapestry she would be on the side of Darkness. Now she will not be working with the White Walkers or the Children or even Bran in any capacity, she will bring destruction to Westeros and thus the human side of the conflict.

Now for a callback to Ragnarok once again, there are a some cute nods by The George. Her analog in the norse mythos would be the Jormungandr (namely on the side of Giants - Fenrir, Loki etc.). The association with serpents is pretty on the nose, but it's the story that is more interesting. Jormungandr is thrown into the ocean by the ruthless Odin where it grows larger and larger as time goes by and eventually it surrounds the world and grasps its own tail. This aligns with her exile, separation from Westeros - the place she was born in, subsequent growth in power and the prophecies galore. "To go west you must go east."

If she does return to Westeros (highly likely) and bring all the armies she has gathered: Ironborn, Meereneese, Unsullied, Dothraki and Dragons, she will be seen as another monster from the perspective of Westerosi. Add into that her possible madness and the existing feeling of entitlement to the Iron Throne, she will wreak havoc on those she justly sees as traitors and enemies.

[John Suburbs]

23 hours ago, MostlyMoody said:

So I was standing in the shower the other day contemplating my mortality and then I thought about the title of the books - a Song of Ice and Fire, which lead me to start this hopefully not too convoluted idea for a post.

The point of this is to invite a new kind of conversation/discussion, less focused on the details and more on the narrative structures of the book and themes.

 

I don't know if I should call this a theory. I'd rather call it 'an observation of the books narrative', more specifically the grand narrative that is mostly rooted in symbolism, ideas and parallels to other, older stories.

Disclaimer: I am going to say a thing and then backtrack on it to elaborate, because often on its own it will sound silly. I may obviously be wrong about all of this, but as someone who has read a bunch and studied writing, I feel like sharing my thoughts nevertheless.

Disclaimer x2: I am not a writer and my only credentials to discuss this are years in college studying writing, an internship and overwhelming interest in storytelling.

---

To start off: the core conflict of the story is between Bran and Jaime. More broadly it is between Others and Humans. Even more broadly it's between Darkness and Light. Now, this isn't to say that this is 'what the books are about', the books are about horrors of war, faults of feudal systems, identities and of course 'The human heart in conflict with itself'. However, the conflict between darkness and light is the most common theme in storytelling since we ever began telling stories to each other. Now, this is where the title comes in. A Song of Ice and Fire. I imagine the common consensus is that it is to do with either Jon Snow and Dany or White Walkers and Dragons. That would be the literal, obvious analogy. The more obvious, but less literal analogy is that it is referring to two diametrically opposed forces – light and darkness, fire and ice, humans and 'the others'.

 

Why Bran and Jaime? If we were smart little detectives, and we made a web of connections investigating the events of the books, the two would be bang in the middle. They are the catalyst of the entire story and in my mind they are the clearest analogy to what I proposed and to Norse mythology, specifically Ragnarok (From which George has pulled heavily when it comes to themes and broad strokes in storytelling). To poorly retell the beginning in my own words: Tyr binds Fenrir by putting his hand in the wolf's mouth. For this, Fenrir bites off Tyr's hand. Come Ragnarok, Fenrir breaks free and what follows is the battle between Giants and Gods.

 

So who are Giants and Gods analogous to in our story? Humans and the Others (From now on I will refer to every race besides humans as Others for the sake of brevity). They are the two diametrically opposed forces in our big picture. From the history of ASOIAF we can gather that this conflict was ever present (Until humans ‘won’) and cuts the world into two sides that seemingly can not, or at least could not coexist.

---

Bran and Darkness.

It’s no secret that Bran has been largely associated with the magical aspects of our story along with Dany. Now, what’s more divisive and what I am proposing is that he will be on the same side as the White Walkers. There is an idea that Children and White Walkers have been aligned in some form in the past or even present, by proxy that could also mean the same of Bloodraven who has been beyond the wall for decades hooked up to a Weirwood, cared for by some of the Children.

From his POV’s we learn that Bran is becoming more and more in alignment with the Others. He loses his ability to walk and thus his dreams of becoming a knight; he dislikes his time as Prince of Winterfell; he is betrayed by Theon, witnesses more cruelty and death, and has to leave his home; as he travels, Bran becomes more and more detached and more comfortable ‘being’ Summer; and now as he is in Bloodraven’s cave who has been guiding him so far, is now under the tutelage of the Three-Eyed Crow. In short, he is becoming less human, more single minded and connected to the natural world and magic, same as the Children, same as the White Walkers.

Much like Loki and Fenrir, Bloodraven and Bran had been bound and imprisoned by those they once thought were one of them. Beyond the wall, exiled from humanity and, having the power of seeing through time and space they see the big picture, the cyclical nature of the world: the long night that comes along and destroys, so something new can be born.

"The strongest trees are rooted in the dark places of the earth. Darkness will be your cloak, your shield, your mother's milk. Darkness will make you strong."

 

Jaime and Light.

If Bran is our main POV of the magical world, then Jaime is the representative of humanity as a whole. As probably the ‘greyest’ and polarizing character in the books, at the core he encapsulates humanity in a single dense package. Jaime is a walking talking contradiction from a narrative point of view. He is an oathbreaker but he is also honorable, he is cruel but also kind, he cares not for rules but is just, he fucks his sister but he is faithful, he doesn’t care for his children but loves his family. Jaime is the best and worst humanity has to offer, a perfect champion.

Symbolically he is always associated with light, never darkness. The lion on his sigil, the golden armor he wore as he killed Aerys, the dreams in which he carries a flaming sword through the darkness.

As Bran is Fenrir, Jaime is represented by Tyr in Rangarok, he is the leader of the Gods and opposes the Giants. Once the war between two sides begins, Tyr meets Fenrir whom he bound once again; unshackled, free and angry.

“There are no men like me. There is only me.”

---

Now none of what I said is supposed to undermine the characters and paint them in a singular way. As I mentioned their stories are more than being the champions of Darkness and Light. They both struggle with their identities, their families, their losses and futures, they are still people, but this is about what they represent to the narrative.

 

Also, Light and Darkness are largely thought of as good and bad, which can be blamed on many of the same old stories that do so (But maybe it is because those stories are written by humans and humans represent light). It is Yin and Yang and one does not exist without the other.

 

Darkness is whole and united; Children, Weirwoods and the White Walkers are too, they are not individuals, they are a network, a hive-mind.

Light divides and cast shadows; humans are complex, irrational and conflicted.

 

I will likely add on to this as I am sure my scatterbrained thoughts aren’t all here yet but I would love to see what the rest of you guys think on this. How do other characters fit into the larger whole? Opposing ideas? Parallels to other stories and connections to them?

Um, all of this came to you in the shower? What were you doing in there?

The dichotomy between ice and fire is simple: ice and fire make water. Others and dragons will cancel each other out and the drowned god will rise again, harder and stronger.

[Darth Sidious]

On 7/2/2018 at 1:08 PM, MostlyMoody said:

Daenerys is interesting. Her story is rooted in magic, dragons and prophecy (Among other more personal things). I would hazard a guess that in the large tapestry she would be on the side of Darkness. Now she will not be working with the White Walkers or the Children or even Bran in any capacity, she will bring destruction to Westeros and thus the human side of the conflict.

Now for a callback to Ragnarok once again, there are a some cute nods by The George. Her analog in the norse mythos would be the Jormungandr (namely on the side of Giants - Fenrir, Loki etc.). The association with serpents is pretty on the nose, but it's the story that is more interesting. Jormungandr is thrown into the ocean by the ruthless Odin where it grows larger and larger as time goes by and eventually it surrounds the world and grasps its own tail. This aligns with her exile, separation from Westeros - the place she was born in, subsequent growth in power and the prophecies galore. "To go west you must go east."

If she does return to Westeros (highly likely) and bring all the armies she has gathered: Ironborn, Meereneese, Unsullied, Dothraki and Dragons, she will be seen as another monster from the perspective of Westerosi. Add into that her possible madness and the existing feeling of entitlement to the Iron Throne, she will wreak havoc on those she justly sees as traitors and enemies.

You and I see this story very differently.  The threat to the people is the coming winter.  The Starks and Jon Snow represent Ice.  If we look at Jon's specific example, we see that he caused a lot of hurt already.  He was in a position to build a coalition to defend the realm and he squandered all of that in order to get his sister out of a bad marriage.  Jon's actions at the wall will end up causing more harm than what the Lannisters and Roose Bolton ever did, combined.  Daenerys is the counter to the winter, ice, and the Starks.  I see her as the hero of this story.  I see Jon and the Starks as unwitting (and witless) people who will end up opening the doors for the Others to come in and destroy Westeros.  

[MostlyMoody]

16 hours ago, Buell 2K said:

You and I see this story very differently.  The threat to the people is the coming winter.  The Starks and Jon Snow represent Ice.  If we look at Jon's specific example, we see that he caused a lot of hurt already.  He was in a position to build a coalition to defend the realm and he squandered all of that in order to get his sister out of a bad marriage.  Jon's actions at the wall will end up causing more harm than what the Lannisters and Roose Bolton ever did, combined.  Daenerys is the counter to the winter, ice, and the Starks.  I see her as the hero of this story.  I see Jon and the Starks as unwitting (and witless) people who will end up opening the doors for the Others to come in and destroy Westeros.  

I think we do, and I think the disagreement comes from the fact that you see Daenerys as the hero of the story, whereas I don't see any character as the hero of the story - admittedly for the purposes of the broad view of the narrative. I still have my favorite characters of course.

I don't see Daenerys as the savior figure in Westeros, as opposed to Essos, where she stands for something - she is a liberator, albeit not a very effective one (The whole thing hits close to a USA war allegory, but that's a whole different story). Don't get me wrong, I think she can still be seen as a 'hero' figure, same as Bran, same as Jon, same as Jaime, just from a different perspective. She was exiled, betrayed and sold off, her legacy taken away, she has right to be angry, to want to fix the world. How will she do it? Likely through force and dragon fire. That doesn't mean that she is the villain; she is the product of her society and what goes around comes around.

Just like a Jormungandr.