Robb Stark, and the fate of Young Griff

[Dohor]

5 hours ago, FictionIsntReal said:

Why would fAegon be of a "highly incestous background"? The popular theory is that his father is Illyrio Mopatis and his mother is the prostitute he bought from a Lysene brothel. It seems a comfortable assumption that the two of them weren't already related. We've gotten no indications that the Mopatis family (Mopati?) had been incestuous. If she was owned by a brothel, it would seem that her parents didn't have any expectation of making a picky marital match for her, and is probably a bastard. Although since Illyrio was married, that would mean his kid isn't a bastard, so perhaps you have some alternate theory.

I subscribe to the theory that Serra and Varys were siblings and the last remaining Blackfyres, who, like other Targs, practiced incest.

[BlackLightning]

On ‎7‎/‎7‎/‎2018 at 10:10 PM, Charles Calthrop said:

This.  Despite Varys talking fAegon up about how he’d been raised and tutored and well-balanced and what not, there was just a pattern of immature behavior (like flipping over the chessboard) etc., that only one character echoed in terms of childishness - Joff.  That said, fAegon didn’t seem to be a sadist like Joffrey.  (Although he had nowhere near the opportunity.)



On the flip side, Robb didn’t have a lot of great advisors, barring the Blackfish (from a tactics standpoint - otherwise that guy gets too much of a pass for his ‘badass’ status).  He didn’t listen to Cat about Theon, but Cat’s decision making was generally shit, as was her thinking, so not like she’s great from a credibility standpoint.  Bolton was a total creep, and Robb realized this (one of the things he and Cat actually agreed on.). The Great Jon was well meaning, but kind of a moron.  Even if Theon had stayed loyal, he was callow as can be and wasn’t capable of giving material advice.  Edmure was possibly worse than any of the above, except Cat. 

Unfortunately, the candidates for ‘good advisors’ he could have had weren’t available to him.  Manderly was too fat to be in the field with him, although seems like he’d be a great advisor.  JS (book) would have been a great advisor, but #nightswatchreasons.  Howland Reed also would have likely been an asset, but can’t have the great McGuffin out in the wild.

With just Jon Connington alone, YG is doing better in the advisor department... although as a post above indicates, JC’s greyscale clock is ticking, making him do crazy things.

I strongly disagree with the bold.

Catelyn gave great advice and had great insight: don't send Theon, don't marry Jeyne, don't rely on Lord Bolton, don't be the king, keep Greywind close, sue for peace/bend the knee, don't fk with Lord Frey, warfare is not always conventional, etc.

As a matter of fact, the whole "don't make Jon your heir" thing is probably going to be a problem in Winds when the trueborn Stark children (particularly Sansa and Rickon) return to the North and Jon reforms the Night's Watch(???).

It's just that her prize weakness, her Kryptonite - her children and the love she had for them - was constantly being exploited.

[Bernie Mac]

35 minutes ago, Jabar of House Titan said:

I strongly disagree with the bold.

Catelyn gave great advice and had great insight: don't send Theon, don't marry Jeyne, don't rely on Lord Bolton, don't be the king, keep Greywind close, sue for peace/bend the knee, don't fk with Lord Frey, warfare is not always conventional, etc.

As a matter of fact, the whole "don't make Jon your heir" thing is probably going to be a problem in Winds when the trueborn Stark children (particularly Sansa and Rickon) return to the North and Jon reforms the Night's Watch(???).

It's just that her prize weakness, her Kryptonite - her children and the love she had for them - was constantly being exploited.

I agree Cat was a pretty useful adviser, he'd never have made it past AGOT without her, it is just a shame that once he puts on his crown he stops listening to his mother. 

Even Edmure seems pretty sound given the only time we see him offer Robb counsel was on him being lenient towards Karstark rather than executing him and making the Karstark foot with Roose his enemy. 

Robb had decent advice, he simply chose to ignore it. 

 

[Varysblackfyre321]

11 hours ago, Jabar of House Titan said:

I strongly disagree with the bold.

Catelyn gave great advice and had great insight: don't send Theon, don't marry Jeyne, don't rely on Lord Bolton, don't be the king, keep Greywind close, sue for peace/bend the knee, don't fk with Lord Frey, warfare is not always conventional, etc.

As a matter of fact, the whole "don't make Jon your heir" thing is probably going to be a problem in Winds when the trueborn Stark children (particularly Sansa and Rickon) return to the North and Jon reforms the Night's Watch(???).

It's just that her prize weakness, her Kryptonite - her children and the love she had for them - was constantly being exploited.

I agree to an extent on Catelyn giving sound advice but her reasoning for why Jon shouldn't be named for Rob's heir was largely filled by Jon is a source of shame for her.

I agree with the idea of Jon being a bad choice and that there would be a potential threat of Jon's progeny (personally I think Edmure would be a better one-Rob planned to go back north leaving the riverlands with little defense-gotta give them some reason to keep fighting).

Naming Jon as heir truth be told would probably do more harm than good; Jon would be seen as an oathbreaker, Robb cannot simply buy his bastard-half brother from the watch without there being outrage-Jon swore oaths to the old gods to spend the rest of his life in service to the brotherhood-Robb's plan if enacted would make it look like Robb just doesn't care about the idea of men being held accountable for their words(if it gets in his way at least), first he breaks his word to a house whose given all that he had asked for, now he's disrespecting the old gods by letting his bastard half brother break his vows just to play heir? How can you trust such a man? 

 

[Brianstorm]

Considering Robb is true born and Jon is a bastard, it's more likely Dany is killed and she's given a dragon's head on her body like Robb with his direwolf, while the bastard Blackfyre survives.

[Giant Ice Spider]

4 hours ago, Brianstorm said:

Considering Robb is true born and Jon is a bastard, it's more likely Dany is killed and she's given a dragon's head on her body like Robb with his direwolf, while the bastard Blackfyre survives.

I think the dragons' heads are a bit big...

Also, technically, if Young Griff is the son of Illyrio Mopatis and Serra Blackfyre, then he was born in wedlock.

[FictionIsntReal]

22 hours ago, Dohor said:

I subscribe to the theory that Serra and Varys were siblings and the last remaining Blackfyres, who, like other Targs, practiced incest.

If Varys was her brother and the father of her child, that would be highly inbred, but Varys is one of the people we can be certain has no children. The only wife of a Blackfyre we know of is Rohanne of Tyrosh, married to Daemon himself. That was a political decision by Aegon IV. After exile, they wouldn't be subject to such authority, but there also wouldn't be Targaryens to marry. Westeros is a patrilineal society where the important thing is your paternal descent, and houses are led by male lords. In a patrilineal system, having a father arrange a marriage between his child and that of his brother (a "parallel" cousin marriage) will ensure that all their offspring will remain in their own clan. This leads to more clannishness and inbreeding than cross-cousin marriage (in which siblings of different sexes have their children marry each other). With the elimination of the male line of Blackfyres, you no longer have a patrilineal Blackfyre clan or house, just various people of other houses (which seems to be a less important concept in the Free Cities) who can claim some Blackfyre descent. If they lost their status with the end of the Blackfyre line and had to resort to prostitution or selling their children, then as I said I don't think they were in a position to be picky about marriage partners.

[Leonardo]

He seems to me to be even more a copy of Daeron than Robb... Doesn't he make the same basic remark to the GC when asking about dragons "the dragon you need stands before you"?

[The Sunland Lord]

The parallels are very obvious between the two. For me it's like reading about Ned (Jon Con) and Robb reincarnated, but this time they spend more time with each other and are even going in war together. But how Young Griff's story will end, we can't say. If the previous "Young" characters ended badly, maybe this time we'll be surprised. I'm saying surprised, exactly because the thing you (are supposed to) expect is that Aegon/YG ends tragically. 

Can't say I'm impressed by his appearance out of nowhere, to be honest. I kind of hope he is a fake Aegon. 

[Giant Ice Spider]

16 minutes ago, The Sunland Lord said:

The parallels are very obvious between the two. For me it's like reading about Ned (Jon Con) and Robb reincarnated, but this time they spend more time with each other and are even going in war together. But how Young Griff's story will end, we can't say. If the previous "Young" characters ended badly, maybe this time we'll be surprised. I'm saying surprised, exactly because the thing you (are supposed to) expect is that Aegon/YG ends tragically. 

Can't say I'm impressed by his appearance out of nowhere, to be honest. I kind of hope he is a fake Aegon. 

The fact that there's no rumours of any baby-swap, or any real foreshadowing of his appearance (that I can find), makes me think Young Griff is something Martin came up with later on.

[Dohor]

5 hours ago, FictionIsntReal said:

If Varys was her brother and the father of her child, that would be highly inbred, but Varys is one of the people we can be certain has no children. The only wife of a Blackfyre we know of is Rohanne of Tyrosh, married to Daemon himself. That was a political decision by Aegon IV. After exile, they wouldn't be subject to such authority, but there also wouldn't be Targaryens to marry. Westeros is a patrilineal society where the important thing is your paternal descent, and houses are led by male lords. In a patrilineal system, having a father arrange a marriage between his child and that of his brother (a "parallel" cousin marriage) will ensure that all their offspring will remain in their own clan. This leads to more clannishness and inbreeding than cross-cousin marriage (in which siblings of different sexes have their children marry each other). With the elimination of the male line of Blackfyres, you no longer have a patrilineal Blackfyre clan or house, just various people of other houses (which seems to be a less important concept in the Free Cities) who can claim some Blackfyre descent. If they lost their status with the end of the Blackfyre line and had to resort to prostitution or selling their children, then as I said I don't think they were in a position to be picky about marriage partners.

Whoops my bad, I meant that I believe fAegon to be Illyrio's son with Serra.

[FictionIsntReal]

3 hours ago, Dohor said:

Whoops my bad, I meant that I believe fAegon to be Illyrio's son with Serra.

Again, how would that make him highly inbred? Or a bastard?

[Hugorfonics]

I guess its possible that Aegon wins every battle but loses his life. Either way Duck is no Greywind.

I believe though that these two kings will have something stronger in common. Robbs death recreated the pride and nostalgia of a King in the North, that Sansa or whomever will capitalize on. Young Griffs death will help Dany resurect Targaryen. 

[Giant Ice Spider]

7 hours ago, Hugorfonics said:

I guess its possible that Aegon wins every battle but loses his life. Either way Duck is no Greywind.

I believe though that these two kings will have something stronger in common. Robbs death recreated the pride and nostalgia of a King in the North, that Sansa or whomever will capitalize on. Young Griffs death will help Dany resurect Targaryen. 

That's an interesting idea. I hadn't thought of that.

[BlackLightning]

On ‎7‎/‎14‎/‎2018 at 10:52 PM, Hugorfonics said:

I guess its possible that Aegon wins every battle but loses his life. Either way Duck is no Greywind.

I believe though that these two kings will have something stronger in common. Robbs death recreated the pride and nostalgia of a King in the North, that Sansa or whomever will capitalize on. Young Griffs death will help Dany resurect Targaryen. 

Or....

When Daenerys comes to Westeros, Aegon loses every battle he fights against her but wins the war. The win being surviving the war against Daenerys to fight the Others alongside her...only to die because of Euron, Cersei or greyscale.

[Chisa]

On 7/4/2018 at 9:04 PM, Dohor said:

The message is; no matter what kind of people they are, children have no place in war and politics, and boy kings are dumb idea.

The point is Young Griff is either elder than (if he is Aegon) or of the same age as Jon. And basically the of the five main POVs only Tyrion is an adult and someone has to win the war. So it may as well be a boy/girl. Unless you're suggesting Euron wins it. (Euron is a joke,  I hope he dies soon) 

On 7/9/2018 at 7:02 PM, Mooncalf said:

"If my aunt (Dany) wants slaver's bay so badly, she can have it." fuck you Aegon. she doesn't want that awful place,

Every other person in Aegon's place would say that. I mean it does seem like that from afar. It's actually a very fun + funny line. Dany not showing up is a loss of hope. There's no way the expedition or whatever will go forward with out Dany and her dragons. And so yeah, this comment made perfect sense. If my dragon aunt is not heading west but further east conquering cities which never had autocracy,  well fine,  let her a tyrant and let's not lose hope or grow old waiting for her but move forward.