Heresy 210 and the Babes in the Wood

[Tucu]

29 minutes ago, Feather Crystal said:

Well, I do think Arya retraced Lyanna's steps up until Lyanna is injured near Saltpans. Sandor died near there, and Arya went to Braavos, because I suspect Arthur lived and Lyanna ended up dying. Then Ashara was actually the one that went to Braavos. This is an ominous sign that Sansa may die, because Ashara is likely still alive.

Ashara was Elia's lady in waiting - and technically one of Rhaella's court ladies also. Tywin left his position as Hand when Aerys announced Jaime's investiture into the Kingsguard at Harrenhal. Aerys's Hands after Tywin: Owen Merryweather, Jon Connington, Qarlton Chelsted, and Wisdom Rossart. 

Recall that Jaime thought he saw Rhaella leave Kings Landing with Viserys, and that she had visible bite marks and scratches from when Aerys raped her.

I think Arya's part in the play is a pretty good clue that lady-in-waiting Ashara was raped also. If she was raped by the king's Hand then the timing would make either Connington, Chelsted, or Rossart the prime suspects. I think Connington is our best suspect here, because he did have a child with him in exile. Ned somehow fought to keep Jon, and then had Ashara give Connington some baby and then told him it was their son. JonCon thinks fAegon is his son, but is pretending he's Aegon. Or maybe he really is Aegon and Ashara was keeping him hidden? Geesh! A double baby swap! The Pisswater Prince for Aegon, and then Aegon for Jon!

I have theorized that Ashara and Rhaella traded places and that it was actually Ashara that Jaime saw. It would be a nice parallel if Rhaella actually travelled to where Rhaegar was being resurrected, because then she could play the mirrored part that pregnant Dany did at Drogo's resurrection. The reversal being that Rhaella didn't lose her child, because Daenerys was born later on Dragonstone. 

Connington has one of those multiple meaning lines that always confused me:

Quote

I rose too high, loved too hard, dared too much. I tried to grasp a star, overreached, and fell.

 

Hard "love" and a Starfall.

[Melifeather]

25 minutes ago, Matthew. said:

I'm not so sure about this particular scenario; Connington's internal monologue would suggest that he legitimately believes that Aegon is Rhaegar's son:
 

Also, if Jon Connington is gay (I can't recall whether this is explicitly confirmed, or just implied), I'm going to hazard a guess that his dancing with Ashara at Harrenhal (as per the Meera's story) was more for appearances than from passion.

(random side note from Connington's POV: in his thoughts, Septa Lemore is never Septa Lemore--she's Lemore, or "Lady Lemore." I probably shouldn't read too much into that usage of "Lady," but still...)

Thank you. You're quite right. I was rolling through some possibilities. But having Aegon real still works. I still would have him as being smuggled out of Kings Landing with Ashara, and perhaps when JonCon leaves Kings Landing that is when Ashara left also? JonCon could be mirroring Sandor when Sandor offered to take Sansa out of Kings Landing. He's already been confirmed as being still alive, so maybe he's Sandor's inversion rather than Arthur?

 

19 minutes ago, Tucu said:

Connington has one of those multiple meaning lines that always confused me:

Hard "love" and a Starfall.

I agree grasping for a star and falling do seem to hint at Ashara.

 

I also thought of additional parallels between Robb and his two betrothals - first to the Frey daughter and then Jeyne Westerling - as being a parallel to his own mother - Catelyn and her two betrothals to Brandon and then Ned. Peter Baelish is the parallel to Rhaegar - the Bael-type man thought to have kidnapped Lyanna, and blamed for her death. When Petyr fought Brandon he ended up injured and in water, but still alive. While Catelyn is also found in water, but dead - after the Red Wedding. 

[Matthew.]

59 minutes ago, Feather Crystal said:

But having Aegon real still works. I still would have him as being smuggled out of Kings Landing with Ashara, and perhaps when JonCon leaves Kings Landing that is when Ashara left also?

I agree--if Aegon VI is the real deal, then the SSM about Ashara "not being nailed down in Starfall" and being one of Elia's companions would tie all of that together, as she would be in a good position to have access to Aegon VI.

Edit: However, if Ashara survived, where is she? The most straightforward response to that would be Lemore, but if Ashara is Lemore, with GRRM conveniently writing around having Tyrion take note of her eyes...I don't know, it's possible, but it seems like a real cop out.

Technically, her secret identity is less important than Aegon VI's, so I don't know why GRRM wouldn't just reveal it as a bundle deal alongside Connington and Aegon VI--it would just be stringing out a relatively minor reveal in a way that's somewhat contrived.

Of course, it's also possible that she both helped swap Aegon VI and legitimately died at the end of the war--or that she swapped him out, but isn't in his coterie, and is playing some role that has yet to be revealed.

[Melifeather]

40 minutes ago, Matthew. said:

I agree--if Aegon VI is the real deal, then the SSM about Ashara "not being nailed down in Starfall" and being one of Elia's companions would tie all of that together, as she would be in a good position to have access to Aegon VI.

Edit: However, if Ashara survived, where is she? The most straightforward response to that would be Lemore, but if Ashara is Lemore, with GRRM conveniently writing around having Tyrion take note of her eyes...I don't know, it's possible, but it seems like a real cop out.

Technically, her secret identity is less important than Aegon VI's, so I don't know why GRRM wouldn't just reveal it as a bundle deal alongside Connington and Aegon VI--it would just be stringing out a relatively minor reveal in a way that's somewhat contrived.

Of course, it's also possible that she both helped swap Aegon VI and legitimately died at the end of the war--or that she swapped him out, but isn't in his coterie, and is playing some role that has yet to be revealed.

GRRM is trying to surprise us with, not just Jon’s true parents, but some of the other events connected to Lyanna’s abduction. If Lemore’s identity were revealed it would give away too much too early. There’re enough different clues for Lemore to be Ashara, Lyanna, and Rhaella. Rhaella was the one that kept septas around her. Lemore could be Lyanna, but Tyrion would recognize the Stark features before any Dayne ones, because he would have been too young to meet or remember Ashara, but he’s more recently met all the Starks.

[Matthew.]

33 minutes ago, Feather Crystal said:

GRRM is trying to surprise us with, not just Jon’s true parents, but some of the other events connected to Lyanna’s abduction. If Lemore’s identity were revealed it would give away too much too early. There’re enough different clues for Lemore to be Ashara, Lyanna, and Rhaella. Rhaella was the one that kept septas around her. Lemore could be Lyanna, but Tyrion would recognize the Stark features before any Dayne ones, because he would have been too young to meet or remember Ashara, but he’s more recently met all the Starks.

By that same token, Tyrion notes several of Lemore's physical features, so a failure to observe Ashara's most persistently mentioned quality - haunting violet eyes - seems a glaring omission. 

However, I acknowledge that's not really damning, or even contradictory, as GRRM isn't immune to relying on convenience and contrivance for the sake of the plot--and when it comes to assessing the plausibility of theories, one of my philosophies is: "disappointment is always an option." I'm not fond of criticisms that largely amount to "X can't be true, because X as a writing choice wouldn't satisfy me, personally!," so it may just be that this is a reveal that is going to fall flat with me as a reader 

That said, it gives me enough doubt to be more inclined toward other identities for Lemore; you listed some of your thoughts, but other prospects I've seen floated are that she's Tyene Sand's mother, as well as a whole theory about how she's Malora Hightower (with the "Maid" in Mad Maid not being read too literally in that instance), that the Hightowers were in on the Aegon VI conspiracy as far back as when Gerold was the LC of the KG, and that Leyton Hightower has married off his children in a politically advantageous way, in preparation for Aegon's arrival--to give Aegon a proper army.

[Melifeather]

3 hours ago, Tucu said:

Continuing with the theme of Arya replaying some of Lyanna steps, what can we extract from Arya pretending to be a lady-in-waiting raped by the Hand of the King (in the Bloody Hand play)? Tywin, Merryweather and JonCon were the Hands in the time between the Harrenhal events and the start of the war.

Revisiting this because I think it could be evidence that Ned is Jon’s father with Ashara. Not only does JonCon fit as the Hand that helped Ashara escape, but Ned was Hand of the King that fathered the bastard of a lady! I don’t see Ned raping Ashara, but having a pregnant Ashara at Court would certainly clarify Baristan’s words!

I wonder If Lollys parallels a pregnant lady Ashara at court?

[St Daga]

4 hours ago, Frey family reunion said:

Or both could be true 

Honestly, I think this is the most likely case, and if it turns out to be true, how the audience will protest. But there have been hints from the start.

 

3 hours ago, Frey family reunion said:

The fact that Ned remembers pulling the tower down, by himself and building a grand total of eight cairns out of it, makes me fairly convinced that the tower was not fit for inhabitation.  If so, then if the three Kingsguards had been there for any length of time, then my guess is that they set up camp nearby.  And of course Arthur is remembered as someone who sets up a good camp.

Yes, I can see the toj as being a smallish tower or even a stone marker that was used to mark a place or boundary. II am not sold on it being a multi-storied stone tower with battlements and bed chambers. Something small enough for Ned to take down with enough stones to make several graves.

 

3 hours ago, Frey family reunion said:

If Robert is at a party, and someone is dishonored at the party, Robert should always be considered as a possible suspect as the man doing the "dishonoring".  My point is, that the text explicitly gives us two people who were definitely smitten with Ashara, Eddard and Baristan.  And the KOTLT story may subtly hint that there was a third who shared their attraction towards her.

Well, it's certainly possible that Howland was enamoured of Ashara's beauty. After all, it is Howland who felt the story was worth telling to his children, and in great detail. But in the Harrenhal story that we get from Meera and Jojen, there is the only mention of Ashara, I think. Even when Meera alludes the the lovely women at the tourney, it is Elia she refers to, not Ashara.  Lyanna most definitely get's the most mentions in the Harrenhal story. And I am not sure that I think Eddard was smitten with Ashara, or even that the text hint's at it. Only that he danced with Ashara at Brandon's urging, but we don't know why? And rumor's that Ned was in love with Ashara at one point. We don't know when or what Harwin really heard when he talks about this to Arya. So much vagueness from the author.

[St Daga]

3 hours ago, Black Crow said:

If she was mad with grief for the man who dishonoured her then he wasn't Robert or otherwise reputed to be Robert

Well, I am not sure that Ashara loved Robert at all. But you don't need to love someone to sleep with them, and we do have hints that Robert can drink enough that he perhaps could coerse or seduce someone to bed. I speculate that Ashara probably loved Rhaegar, but for some reason, she allowed herself to be "dishonored" by Robert. I keep thinking of Harrenhal like a dumb high school party, were people get drunk, there are misunderstandings and fights for no real reason, and then some people pass out and some people sleep with people they shouldn't. Perhaps that was just my high school experience...

I see the possibility that Ashara loved Rhaegar but when Rhaegar gave Lyanna the rose crown, Ashara was jealous and hurt and turned to Robert. The man could easily be several men, though, including Brandon or Ned. Or Oberyn, who is another person Ashara was noted to have danced with at the Tourney.

Arya tells us that she hears a song that talks about a maid jumping from a castle because her "prince" died. So, this seems like either Rhaegar, or if, as was mentioned up thread, Ashara bore a child who could be considered a prince, then she grieves over that son. The lost of a child might be enough to make someone appear to be mad, such as Catelyn's reaction to Robb's death. If Ashara gave birth to a child who could be considered a prince, the candidates for father seem to be Rhaegar or Aerys, prince and king who's son would be seen as a prince, or Robert, who was newly crowned a king. However, the "prince" idea might refer to TPTWP idea, and not be a prince or even a male.

But I don't really think that Ashara did jump from a tower in a form of mourning. If she fell from a tower, I think she was pushed, like we see with Lysa Tully. And perhaps Ashara was pushed by someone she thought she could trust. It just seems like an echo to pay attention too. A lady falling from a tower. It's also possible the whole tower story about Ashara is just a cover to explain her disappearance. 

[Melifeather]

Lollys rape in Kings Landing and subsequent pregnancy not knowing who the father is parallels Ashara dancing with many men at Harrenhal and our not knowing who the father was. The play that Arya was in has me leaning towards king’s Hand Ned as Jon’s father, and with king’s Hand JonCon offering and providing the means of escape.

 

Adding to above: Lollys has a sister, Falsye that disappears. Haha “False-y” = a false sister!

[St Daga]

3 hours ago, Feather Crystal said:

I'm fairly confident that the tower of joy is a parallel to the tent where Mirri resurrected Drogo. If the tower was "long fallen", it could be that most of it was already down or dilapidated enough that it was easy for Ned to pull down, but since these details are only provided in Ned's fever dream, it could also mean that Rhaegar's attempted resurrection didn't even take place in Dorne.

It also does not mean that the actual resurrection attempt took place inside the tower. There could have been a tent. Knights and princes were known to travel with elaborate pavilions. Drogo was lifted by his three blood riders and lowered into a bath inside his khal tent. This is a reversal of when the three Kingsguard lifted Rhaegar from the Trident and placed him inside his pavilion. 

In Dunk's dream about how he and Egg went to Dorne, he said the events in the dream were nothing like real life. He said the only thing that was real is that he and egg rode Thunder and Chestnut through the Prince's Pass to Dorne, and that Chestnut died, causing he and Egg to ride double on Thunder until Egg's brother gave them Maester the mule to ride. IMO "Chestnut" is Lyanna since she's associated with horses and we believe she died. The part about riding Thunder double is in reference to the Knight of the Laughing Tree, where I believe Ned skin changed Howland and Lyanna skin changed the horse he rode. Their skinchanging was a forbidden activity, and Ned blamed their actions as causing Lyanna's death, because the Knight of the Laughing Tree's wins caused Rhaegar to turn his attention on Lyanna, which in turn led to her kidnapping and death. So Ned's dream may very well be Dunk's dream, sent to him by Bloodraven.

I propose that Rhaegar was resurrected in his pavillion somewhere near the Trident, and that the wood's witch paralleled Mirri's magic.

Sometimes I am to literal, but what three kingsguard are responsible for getting Rhaegar out of the Trident? Barristan was wounded, Lewyn Martell and Jon Darry were dead (although I have some tinfoil that Martell survived), or said to be. Jaime was with Aerys, and Dayne, Hightower and Whent were supposed to be far, far away from the Trident. So while I believe that somehow Rhaegar's body could have been snatched away, I don't see how the Kingsguard could be with it. I understand you are trying to find a parallel with the Drogo's tent resurrection (which was a failure in most regards), but I am not sure which kingsguard would be involved. I can certainly accept that Rhaegar's remains might have been placed in a pavilion for safe keeping. He was the crown prince, after all. But what then? If Rheagar was resurrected, what do you think happened next?

As to Ned, Lyanna and Howland at Harrenhal, I don't know if Ned or Lyanna has the experience needed to skin-change a human, even a willing human. The horse, I can buy, but the human is a stretch for me. And Ned seems to think it was Lyanna's wolf blood that lead to her death, and he certainly doesn't seem to take any of that responsibility onto himself. Of course, Ned's thoughts are a bit like swiss cheese and the author only let's Ned reveal the little that GRRM want's us to know, so guilt for this could certainly be part of Ned and will be revealed in future books.

 

3 hours ago, Feather Crystal said:

Ned's men were wraiths in his fever dream, because they were already dead by the end of the Rebellion, and the only two living after the Sack were Ned and Howland. Ned has been lying about where and how his men died, because he's keeping Jon's identity and Ashara's whereabouts secret. "Chestnut" is also the red stallion Ned brought back to Lady Dustin. Chestnuts are also associated with repeating an old story, as in "that old chestnut". This is evidence that Ned is lying about how Willam Dustin died. I actually would not be surprised if Ned was at Rhaegar's resurrection and their shadows were like the great wolf and burning man seen in Drogo's tent.

Well, in Ned's dream, all his men are referred to as wraith's, which would include Howland. How can Howland be a wraith and a living person? Perhaps Howland is dead and someone else is living his life in the Neck? Should be trust that Meera and Jojen came from the Neck at all?

I do think there is a mystery with the red horses, especially red stallions in the story. I haven't read D&E, so I can't comment on the story, as I know very little. I am sure that parallel's exist to the main story. Why would Ned allow Rhaegar to be resurrected? That shows no loyalty to Robert. Unless Ned didn't know where Lyanna was and felt like Rhaegar's resurrection was the only way to find out. But we see a Drogo that is resurrected who couldn't even wipe his own butt, let alone talk and tell secrets. I think Ned could have stumbled across some type of resurrection attempt, but then I do think that is related to his fever dream, and I would expect Eddard Stark to try to put an end to such magic, not let it happen.

 

4 hours ago, Feather Crystal said:

The wheel of time or ouroboros is often described as a dragon eating its own tail. Dragons also look like great snakes. Something caused the great snake to let go of its tail, which in turn caused the death of the king.

Could this even have happened as long ago as Baelor's time?  Or does the snake continuously let go of it's tale, and how does that tie to the sigil of House Reed?

 

4 hours ago, Feather Crystal said:

I wonder this too - very much. I think its just a story. A big tower of "joy" torn down and the deaths of eight people used as "rubble" - read "rubbish" - to cover - thus the cairns - LIES!

While I am unsure that Ned was at Starfall or if he was, that he truly returned Dawn, but I do think something happened in Dorne. The red mountains of Dorne play an important role in Ned's dream. And while I understand it's a fever dream, Ned also tells us that he has dreamed this dream before, and I can't imagine that all of those times were fever related or milk of the poppy induced. And if there are eight cairns at the toj (whatever the heck it turns out to be) and one of those kingsguard did survive and walk away, who is the body in the eighth cairn? Could it be Rhaegar's remains?

 

4 hours ago, Feather Crystal said:

If Jon is Ashara's child and Ned convinced her to give him up and go to Braavos, then she would be overcome with grief at leaving him.

I am not sold on Jon being Ashara's but I do think that she would be overcome with grief to give up any child, and it might not even be one of her body. Perhaps she was forced to give up a child she was wet nurse to. I think Gilly would be overcome with grief to give up Dalla's babe, just as she was overcome with grief to leave her own child at the wall. The question then becomes, who was the child that Ashara might have nursed in place of her own and what happened to her own child. Could that be the pisswater prince? Is that why she mourned? Hearing her actually child's head had been dashed against a wall would make most mother's grieve.

 

4 hours ago, Feather Crystal said:

I agree Ashara was mad with grief. Having to leave a child and potentially never see it again would be as bad as death. And if Ashara is in hiding as Septa Lemore, then Ashara is dead to the world. 

Well, I don't think Lemore is Ashara. If Ashara lives on and is in disguise, I think she could be Quaithe. Nothing but a "feeling" to go on, so I expect that I will be wrong about that, but for now that is where my idea remains.

 

4 hours ago, Feather Crystal said:

The tower of joy could be a metaphor for the size of Ned's lies. Lies can be said to be "built", even if in Ned's instance it got torn down in the telling and used to bury eight people. It's an unbelievable feat to think that Ned and Howland could pull down a tower by themselves and use the stones to build cairns. There may be a real tower of joy, but if its location and existence is being used to conceal a bunch of lies, then its a pretty good reason why Ned thinks of it as a bitter memory.

Well, we have no idea how big a tower the toj is? It could be nothing more that a stack of stones that are referred to as a tower, or even just a tall beacon to light a fire from. I think the "tower long fallen" is different than what ever tower that Ned and his wraith's met the kingsguard at. This "tower long fallen" might be in reference to a tower not in Dorne at all. I suspect it might even refer to the Fallen tower at Winterfell, or possible a tower a Moat Cailen.  I think it's a tower in the north, but it might not be. The fever dream is a conflation of multiple different places and people. I don't think Lyanna was at the toj, but I do think she might have been at a different tower which still resonates with Ned, and that tower might be where her "bed of blood" occurred. What ever the heck "bed of blood" really refers to is a mystery to me as well, but I am almost certain Lyanna wasn't giving birth in or near the toj in the red mountains of Dorne. Perhaps another tower in Dorne, or perhaps it is a tower in the north. That is what my gut tells me, but that can be taken with a grain of salt, at best.

 

[St Daga]

3 hours ago, Tucu said:

Connington has one of those multiple meaning lines that always confused me:

Quote

I rose too high, loved too hard, dared too much. I tried to grasp a star, overreached, and fell.

 

Hard "love" and a Starfall.

This is an interesting connection. Perhaps JonCon was actually in love with Arthur Dayne by the end. Dude is into men, I would swear by it!

 

[Melifeather]

3 hours ago, St Daga said:

Sometimes I am to literal, but what three kingsguard are responsible for getting Rhaegar out of the Trident? Barristan was wounded, Lewyn Martell and Jon Darry were dead (although I have some tinfoil that Martell survived), or said to be. Jaime was with Aerys, and Dayne, Hightower and Whent were supposed to be far, far away from the Trident. So while I believe that somehow Rhaegar's body could have been snatched away, I don't see how the Kingsguard could be with it. I understand you are trying to find a parallel with the Drogo's tent resurrection (which was a failure in most regards), but I am not sure which kingsguard would be involved. I can certainly accept that Rhaegar's remains might have been placed in a pavilion for safe keeping. He was the crown prince, after all. But what then? If Rheagar was resurrected, what do you think happened next?

As to Ned, Lyanna and Howland at Harrenhal, I don't know if Ned or Lyanna has the experience needed to skin-change a human, even a willing human. The horse, I can buy, but the human is a stretch for me. And Ned seems to think it was Lyanna's wolf blood that lead to her death, and he certainly doesn't seem to take any of that responsibility onto himself. Of course, Ned's thoughts are a bit like swiss cheese and the author only let's Ned reveal the little that GRRM want's us to know, so guilt for this could certainly be part of Ned and will be revealed in future books.

 

Well, in Ned's dream, all his men are referred to as wraith's, which would include Howland. How can Howland be a wraith and a living person? Perhaps Howland is dead and someone else is living his life in the Neck? Should be trust that Meera and Jojen came from the Neck at all?

I do think there is a mystery with the red horses, especially red stallions in the story. I haven't read D&E, so I can't comment on the story, as I know very little. I am sure that parallel's exist to the main story. Why would Ned allow Rhaegar to be resurrected? That shows no loyalty to Robert. Unless Ned didn't know where Lyanna was and felt like Rhaegar's resurrection was the only way to find out. But we see a Drogo that is resurrected who couldn't even wipe his own butt, let alone talk and tell secrets. I think Ned could have stumbled across some type of resurrection attempt, but then I do think that is related to his fever dream, and I would expect Eddard Stark to try to put an end to such magic, not let it happen.

 

Could this even have happened as long ago as Baelor's time?  Or does the snake continuously let go of it's tale, and how does that tie to the sigil of House Reed?

 

While I am unsure that Ned was at Starfall or if he was, that he truly returned Dawn, but I do think something happened in Dorne. The red mountains of Dorne play an important role in Ned's dream. And while I understand it's a fever dream, Ned also tells us that he has dreamed this dream before, and I can't imagine that all of those times were fever related or milk of the poppy induced. And if there are eight cairns at the toj (whatever the heck it turns out to be) and one of those kingsguard did survive and walk away, who is the body in the eighth cairn? Could it be Rhaegar's remains?

 

I am not sold on Jon being Ashara's but I do think that she would be overcome with grief to give up any child, and it might not even be one of her body. Perhaps she was forced to give up a child she was wet nurse to. I think Gilly would be overcome with grief to give up Dalla's babe, just as she was overcome with grief to leave her own child at the wall. The question then becomes, who was the child that Ashara might have nursed in place of her own and what happened to her own child. Could that be the pisswater prince? Is that why she mourned? Hearing her actually child's head had been dashed against a wall would make most mother's grieve.

 

Well, I don't think Lemore is Ashara. If Ashara lives on and is in disguise, I think she could be Quaithe. Nothing but a "feeling" to go on, so I expect that I will be wrong about that, but for now that is where my idea remains.

 

Well, we have no idea how big a tower the toj is? It could be nothing more that a stack of stones that are referred to as a tower, or even just a tall beacon to light a fire from. I think the "tower long fallen" is different than what ever tower that Ned and his wraith's met the kingsguard at. This "tower long fallen" might be in reference to a tower not in Dorne at all. I suspect it might even refer to the Fallen tower at Winterfell, or possible a tower a Moat Cailen.  I think it's a tower in the north, but it might not be. The fever dream is a conflation of multiple different places and people. I don't think Lyanna was at the toj, but I do think she might have been at a different tower which still resonates with Ned, and that tower might be where her "bed of blood" occurred. What ever the heck "bed of blood" really refers to is a mystery to me as well, but I am almost certain Lyanna wasn't giving birth in or near the toj in the red mountains of Dorne. Perhaps another tower in Dorne, or perhaps it is a tower in the north. That is what my gut tells me, but that can be taken with a grain of salt, at best.

 

I guess I assumed you had been reading along during this whole thread?  Obviously there are omissions with regards to events that occurred around Lyanna's abduction, so I'll try to condense.

First there's Dunk's dream. I'll put the passage in spoiler tags for you since you haven't read any of the Dunk and Egg novellas:

Spoiler

Egg was asleep by the time Dunk reached the roof. He lay on his back with his hands behind his head and stared up at the sky. The stars were everywhere, thousands and thousands of them. It reminded him of a night at Ashford Meadow, before the tourney started. He had seen a falling star that night. Falling stars were supposed to bring you luck, so he’d told Tanselle to paint it on his shield, but Ashford had been anything but lucky for him. Before the tourney ended, he had almost lost a hand and a foot, and three good men had lost their lives. I gained a squire, though. Egg was with me when I rode away from Ashford. That was the only good thing to come of all that happened. He hoped that no stars fell tonight. 

  There were red mountains in the distance and white sands beneath his feet. Dunk was digging, plunging a spade into the hot, dry earth and flinging the fine sand back over his shoulder. He was making a hole. A grave, he thought, a grave for hope. A trio of Dornish knights stood watching, making mock of him in quiet voices. Farther off the merchants waited with their mules and wayns and sand sledges. They wanted to be off, but he could not leave until he’d buried Chestnut. He would not leave his old friend to the snakes and scorpions and sand dogs. 

  The stot had died on the long, thirsty crossing between the Prince’s Pass and Vaith, with Egg upon his back. His front legs just seemed to fold up under him, and he knelt right down, rolled onto his side, and died. His carcass sprawled beside the hole. Already it was stiff. Soon it would begin to smell. 

  Dunk was weeping as he dug, to the amusement of the Dornish knights. “Water is precious in the waste,” one said, “you ought not to waste it, ser.” The other chuckled and said, “Why do you weep? It was only a horse, and a poor one.” 

  Chestnut, Dunk thought, digging, his name was Chestnut, and he bore me on his back for years, and never bucked or bit. The old stot had looked a sorry thing beside the sleek sand steeds that the Dornishmen were riding, with their elegant heads, long necks, and flowing manes, but he had given all he had to give. 

  “Weeping for a swaybacked stot?” Ser Arlan said, in his old man’s voice. “Why, lad, you never wept for me, who put you on his back.” He gave a little laugh, to show he meant no harm by the reproach. “That’s Dunk the lunk, thick as a castle wall.”

  “He shed no tears for me, either,” said Baelor Breakspear from the grave, “though I was his prince, the hope of Westeros. The gods never meant for me to die so young.” 

  “My father was only nine-and-thirty,” said Prince Valarr. “He had it in him to be a great king, the greatest since Aegon the Dragon.” He looked at Dunk with cool blue eyes. “Why would the gods take him, and leave you?” The Young Prince had his father’s light brown hair, but a streak of silver-gold ran through it. 

  You are dead, Dunk wanted to scream, you are all three dead, why won’t you leave me be? Ser Arlan had died of a chill, Prince Baelor of the blow his brother dealt him during Dunk’s trial of seven, his son Valarr during the Great Spring Sickness. I am not to blame for that. We were in Dorne, we never even knew. 

  “You are mad,” the old man told him. “We will dig no hole for you, when you kill yourself with this folly. In the deep sands a man must hoard his water.” 

  “Begone with you, Ser Duncan,” Valarr said. “Begone.” 

  Egg helped him with the digging. The boy had no spade, only his hands, and the sand flowed back into the grave as fast as they could fling it out. It was like trying to dig a hole in the sea. I have to keep digging, Dunk told himself, though his back and shoulders ached from the effort. I have to bury him down deep where the sand dogs cannot find him. I have to… 

  “… die?” said Big Rob the simpleton from the bottom of the grave. Lying there, so still and cold, with a ragged red wound gaping in his belly, he did not look very big at all. 

  Dunk stopped and stared at him. “You’re not dead. You’re down sleeping in the cellar.” He looked to Ser Arlan for help. “Tell him, ser,” he pleaded, “tell him to get out of the grave.” 

  Only it was not Ser Arlan of Pennytree standing over him at all, it was Ser Bennis of the Brown Shield. The brown knight only cackled. “Dunk the lunk,” he said, “gutting’s slow, but certain. Never knew a man to live with his entrails hanging out.” Red froth bubbled on his lips. He turned and spat, and the white sands drank it down. Treb was standing behind him with an arrow in his eye, weeping slow, red tears. And there was Wet Wat too, his head cut near in half, with old Lem and red-eyed red-eyed Pate and all the rest. They had all been chewing sourleaf with Bennis, Dunk thought at first, but then he realized that it was blood trickling from their mouths. Dead, he thought, all dead, and the brown knight brayed. “Aye, so best get busy. You’ve more graves to dig, lunk. Eight for them and one for me and one for old Ser Useless, and one last one for your baldhead boy.” 

  The spade slipped from Dunk’s hands. “Egg,” he cried, “run! We have to run!” But the sands were giving way beneath their feet. When the boy tried to scramble from the hole, its crumbling sides gave way and collapsed. Dunk saw the sands wash over Egg, burying him as he opened his mouth to shout. He tried to fight his way to him, but the sands were rising all around him, pulling him down into the grave, filling his mouth, his nose, his eyes…

I will assume that you are familiar with Ned's fever dream so I will not include it here, but I hope you recall enough of it to see the parallels between the two dreams? Yes, Ned calls it an "old" dream, but that doesn't make it true. What if he had post-traumatic-stress-disorder after witnessing the attempt to resurrect Rhaegar, and trying to forget what he saw has caused nightmares?

The blood magic ritual that Mirri worked terrified Rakharo, Quaro, and Aggo. The red stallion's throat was slit and its blood ran all over Drogo in his bath. Mirri told Daenerys to go, because once she started singing, she would awaken powers old and dark. She said the dead would dance and no living person should see them.

What if Ned saw the dead dance when he witnessed a similar blood magic ritual performed over Rhaegar? There was Willam Dustin's red stallion there, but apparently Ned brought the horse home - so it couldn't have been sacrificed. I suspect Rhaella was there. She seems a likely parallel for Daenerys as a Targaryen pregnant with a king's child. Rhaella's child Dany lived, but Dany's child Rhaego died. Drogo was on the verge of dying, but he hadn't died yet when the ritual was performed. Afterward he survived - sort of - but he certainly wasn't the same. So what would be the opposite? Rhaegar was definitely killed when Robert put his warhammer in his head, so were they able to resurrect him? Seems questionable if all the elements of Drogo's ritual were there, but the opposite things happened. No dead red horse and no dead unborn child could have meant no resurrection. Dany ends up smothering Drogo, because he's not fully alive. Perhaps Rhaella ended up burning Rhaegar, because the ritual was stopped?

Just because the fever dream has Ned accusing the three Kingsguard of not being at the Trident doesn't mean that they couldn't have been there. It seems inconceivable that Rhaegar could have been killed if they had been there, but stranger things can and do happen, so take the "far away" comment with a grain of salt. Baelor, Aerion, and Ser Arlyn were never in Dorne with Dunk, yet in his dream they were. The part of Dunk's dream that has me wondering the most is this:

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The stot had died on the long, thirsty crossing between the Prince’s Pass and Vaith, with Egg upon his back.

 

"Stot" is an interesting word used to refer to a horse, because the dictionary defines "stot" as: 

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1. a bullock

2. a castrated male ox

Collins English Dictionary. Copyright © HarperCollins Publishers

Word origin of 'stot' = Old English

 

 

There's also:

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Scottish and Northern England dialect

1. to bounce or cause to bounce

2. Also: stotter (intransitive) to stagger

3. to bound with a stiff-legged gait. The gazelle stotted when alarmed

 

 

"The stot" in Dunk's dream is Chestnut, and the gait of a horse during a tilt is usually trotting and/or galloping, or maybe "stotting".

Lyanna was said to be half a horse herself. Up thread I pointed out the parallels between the Knight of the Laughing Tree and Ser Loras's tilt against Ser Gregor. I will put the passage and analysis in spoiler tag for you in case you missed it:

Spoiler

A Game of Thrones - Eddard VII

When the Knight of Flowers made his entrance, a murmur ran through the crowd, and he heard Sansa's fervent whisper, "Oh, he's so beautiful." Ser Loras Tyrell was slender as a reed, dressed in a suit of fabulous silver armor polished to a blinding sheen and filigreed with twining black vines and tiny blue forget-me-nots. The commons realized in the same instant as Ned that the blue of the flowers came from sapphires; a gasp went up from a thousand throats. Across the boy's shoulders his cloak hung heavy. It was woven of forget-me-nots, real ones, hundreds of fresh blooms sewn to a heavy woolen cape.

His courser was as slim as her rider, a beautiful grey mare, built for speed. Ser Gregor's huge stallion trumpeted as he caught her scent. The boy from Highgarden did something with his legs, and his horse pranced sideways, nimble as a dancer. Sansa clutched at his arm. "Father, don't let Ser Gregor hurt him," she said. Ned saw she was wearing the rose that Ser Loras had given her yesterday. Jory had told him about that as well.

Some Pig said:

A reed, cloaked in vines and flowers, on a slim, fast grey mare, facing off against a powerful opponent. The wolf girl concerned for the rider's safety against a bigger, stronger, and more formidable foe. The wolf girl favoring the rider because of an earlier personal connection. The grey mare's scent distracts the opponent's horse and allows "her" champion to win.

KOTLT: Howland. How did Lyanna help him cheat?

To take this further and make it both an echo and an inversion to the ToHH KotLT incident, we look at what happens next - the Mountain by no means accepts his defeat graciously, as did those defeated at the ToHH.  Instead, he flies into a rage, kills his own horse, and then tries to take out Loras next.   Loras is saved from death only by the intervention of the Hound - the personal protector of the Crown Prince.  (As many have noted, such as Melifeather, the Hound is the current day inversion of Arthur Dayne.)

Also of note, during CleganeBowl Lite at the Tourney of the Hand, King Bob gets fed up and yells to "Stop this madness!" before the Hound obeys and kneels, and the Mountain stomps away in a fury. At the ToHH, King Aerys is incensed by the KotLT and sends out men to capture the mystery knight.

(end of Pretty Pig’s quote)

I am going to double down on the passage and interpretation that Pretty Pig has provided in case you didn’t catch it the first time. The man slender as a reed is Howland, dressed in a suit of fabulous silver armor polished to a blinding sheen and filigreed with twining black vines and tiny blue forget-me-nots. Howland is “dressed” and “cloaked” or rather inside Lyanna. The twining black vines and the blue forget-me-nots indicate a joined connection, or rather an instance of consensual skinchanging. Could it be any clearer that “the slender reed riding the grey mare” means that Howland rode Lyanna just like Bran rides Hodor? The grey represents House Stark and the the girl who loved blue flowers, who was so good on horseback that she was called a centaur, was the host.

This is why I suspect Chestnut, the old stot, is symbolic for Lyanna, and confirmation that she skinchanged the Knight of the Laughing Tree's horse. And the part about the old stot dying with Egg upon it's back sounds like the reason why Lyanna died was because someone figured out she helped Howland win.

I had thrown Ned into the mixture of the Knight of the Laughing Tree for three reasons: 1) Dunk said he and Egg rode double on Thunder. 2) Howland "slept" in Ned's tent - a hint that skinchanging occurred. And 3) The Knight of the Laughing Tree had a booming voice.

I understand that Howland was also a wraith in Ned's dream, and there's good reason for that. I think Howland is dead - well sort of. He's living his second life as a greenseer like Bran, and I go again to Dunk's dream for confirmation:

Quote

The spade slipped from Dunk’s hands. “Egg,” he cried, “run! We have to run!” But the sands were giving way beneath their feet. When the boy tried to scramble from the hole, its crumbling sides gave way and collapsed. Dunk saw the sands wash over Egg, burying him as he opened his mouth to shout. He tried to fight his way to him, but the sands were rising all around him, pulling him down into the grave, filling his mouth, his nose, his eyes…

Dunk saw Egg die in his dream. He was pulled underground into the grave. Before Bran could skin change the weirwoods he had to eat the weirwood paste in order to be "wedded" to the trees. The paste was a type of poison that allowed Bran's spirit to go into the trees and remain there instead of floating away like Varamyr. Egg is Howland's parallel in the Dunk and Egg stories, so Ned knows Howland is a greenseer.

Up thread I explained the connections between Baelor and Bael. In a nutshell, Targaryen names very often have "ae" in them, so I suspect that Bael the Bard was a Targaryen bastard. Also up thread I explained how "or" and "on" tagged onto Bael to get Baelor and Baelon might be slightly different. You can go back a few pages and read it here.

The more we discuss it the more I'm convinced that the tower of joy is a metaphor for Ned's lies. He buried the lies along with eight other men, the rubble is the rubbish he told all those years, and the cairns represent how the lies have been buried in stone - stone symbolizes how he's put to rest and the extents of his lies. The tower of joy is likely still there, but as a "tower long fallen". The saying "a tower long fallen" could also be viewed as a metaphor, because Ned had propagated his lies for 16 years.

The Dorne imagery in the fever dream is simply a metaphor for how Ned views his short affair with Ashara. Ashara flirted and danced with him on the rebound from Rhaegar. It was such a short indiscretion, but Ned was punished with a desert's worth of pain, lies, and sorrow. I've often wondered why anyone would return a sword. Tywin took Ned's sword Ice and made two different swords with the metal. I wouldn't be surprised if Arthur's sword Dawn turns up somewhere inside Winterfell...probably in the crypts - maybe even inside Lyanna's crypt?

I think Varys did exchange Aegon for the Pisswater Prince, and then pregnant Ashara smuggled him out of Kings Landing with Jon Connington's help. Her pregnancy would have enabled her to become Aegon's wet-nurse. Then just like Gilly, she cares for both Jon and Aegon for a time. Ned convinces Ashara that she has to leave Jon with him to be raised at Winterfell, and she continues on to Braavos with Aegon and JonCon. The Manderlys supplied Wylla as a wet-nurse for Jon while at Winterfell, and somehow later on Wylla ends up at Starfall. Or, the reason why the Daynes love Ned is because they know Ashara isn't dead, and that Ned helped her.

Ned obviously found Lyanna somewhere before she died, and he recalls her "bed of blood", but "bed of blood" doesn't necessarily mean childbirth, because King Robert laid in his bed of blood while dying from the boar's wound in his belly. On his way to see Robert, Ned experiences a little deja vu: 
 

Quote

 

The Red Keep was dark and still as Cayn and Tomard escorted him across the inner bailey. The moon hung low over the walls, ripening toward full. On the ramparts, a guardsman in a gold cloak walked his rounds.

  The royal apartments were in Maegor’s Holdfast, a massive square fortress that nestled in the heart of the Red Keep behind walls twelve feet thick and a dry moat lined with iron spikes, a castle-within-a-castle. Ser Boros Blount guarded the far end of the bridge, white steel armor ghostly in the moonlight. Within, Ned passed two other knights of the Kingsguard; Ser Preston Greenfield stood at the bottom of the steps, and Ser Barristan Selmy waited at the door of the king’s bedchamber. Three men in white cloaks, he thought, remembering, and a strange chill went through him. Ser Barristan’s face was as pale as his armor. Ned had only to look at him to know that something was dreadfully wrong. The royal steward opened the door. “Lord Eddard Stark, the Hand of the King,” he announced.

 

  

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The room smelled of smoke and blood and death.

  “Ned,” the king whispered when he saw him. His face was pale as milk. “Come … closer.”

 

 

 

 

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Cersei Lannister sat on the edge of the bed beside her husband. Her hair was tousled, as if from sleep, but there was nothing sleepy in her eyes. They followed Ned as Tomard and Cayn helped him cross the room. He seemed to move very slowly, as if he were still dreaming.

 

 

 

 

Do you recall what happened next? Robert had a change of heart regarding Dany, and told Ned that he believed the gods sent the boar to punish him for trying to have her killed. He pleaded with Ned to remain in Kings Landing and rule as King Regent and Protector of the Realm until Joffrey comes of age. But - Ned scratched out Joffrey's name and wrote "heir", because he knew Joff wasn't Robert's son. 

Quote

The deceit made him feel soiled. The lies we tell for love, he thought. May the gods forgive me.

The account of Robert extracting a promise from Ned while lying in his bed of blood implies that Lyanna extracted a similar promise. What was it that Ned concealed from Robert? Answer: the legitimacy of Joff's claim to the throne. This is evidence that Lyanna's pleading was about the legitimacy of Robert's claim to the throne. If everyone knew Rhaegar didn't kidnap her, then Robert's rule would be forever tainted. There would be no honor in his conquest.

 

[Melifeather]

Double post

[Black Crow]

12 hours ago, Matthew. said:

I'm not so sure about this particular scenario; Connington's internal monologue would suggest that he legitimately believes that Aegon is Rhaegar's son

As you know I'm all for simple explanations:

There seems no doubt that Ashara Dayne got herself knocked up at Harrenhal.

Her child is said to have been stillborn, ie; it vanishes from view

She is said to have killed herself by jumping off a tower into the sea, ie; she vanishes from view too.

She is said to have done so through grief for the child and grief for the man who had his wicked way with her, ie; he's dead too.

The latter point rules out Ned Stark and Trouserless Bob Baratheon who are both above ground at the time she disappears

Possible [dead] alternatives are Brandon Stark [popular choice], Lewen Martell [probably unlikely] and Rhaegar Targaryen...

Roll forward, and we have Young Griff and the mysterious Septa Lemore. Jon Connington genuinely believes Young Griff to be Rhaegar's son. Most readers shrewdly believe Young Griff/Aegon to be a fake, but what is he isn't, or at least is only partly a fake? What if he is indeed Rhaegar's son, but instead of being Aegon is actually Rhaegar's illegitimate son by Ashara?

This could explain a lot and also opens up intriguing possibilities to explain some of the oddities concerning Lyanna and her son Jon and why its necessary for them to mask what really happened. 

[Tucu]

We also have the possibility of Ashara's child from Harrenhal being the Pisswater prince. They smuggled Aegon out of KL to Starfall early in the war and left her child as substitute. Then Ashara's "prince" is really dead. Gilly following the same steps with monster and Aemon.

Ned finds Ashara and a dying Lyanna in Starfall. They grieve over their lost child, over Lyanna's death and decide to save Jon and Aegon. Ned takes Wylla and Jon to Winterfell; Ashara takes Aegon to Essos.

[alienarea]

Seriously - doesn't "Tower of Joy" sound like a kingsguard brothel?

Even the location seems to fit. 

[St Daga]

14 hours ago, Feather Crystal said:

I guess I assumed you had been reading along during this whole thread?  Obviously there are omissions with regards to events that occurred around Lyanna's abduction, so I'll try to condense.

Thanks for taking the time to address my questions. I appreciate that. I have read the whole thread but I just wasn't making a connection between Dunk's dream and a possible resurrection of Rhaegar. I am still not convinced. Of course Ned's fever dream has a similar cadence as Cersei's Maggy the Frog dream and Varamyr's dream/remembrance. And the toj dream has similarities to MMD tent ritual, but also Ned and Jaime's men's skirmish in the streets of KL as well as the Game prologue.

 

14 hours ago, Feather Crystal said:

I will assume that you are familiar with Ned's fever dream so I will not include it here, but I hope you recall enough of it to see the parallels between the two dreams? Yes, Ned calls it an "old" dream, but that doesn't make it true. What if he had post-traumatic-stress-disorder after witnessing the attempt to resurrect Rhaegar, and trying to forget what he saw has caused nightmares?

The blood magic ritual that Mirri worked terrified Rakharo, Quaro, and Aggo. The red stallion's throat was slit and its blood ran all over Drogo in his bath. Mirri told Daenerys to go, because once she started singing, she would awaken powers old and dark. She said the dead would dance and no living person should see them.

What if Ned saw the dead dance when he witnessed a similar blood magic ritual performed over Rhaegar? There was Willam Dustin's red stallion there, but apparently Ned brought the horse home - so it couldn't have been sacrificed. I suspect Rhaella was there. She seems a likely parallel for Daenerys as a Targaryen pregnant with a king's child. Rhaella's child Dany lived, but Dany's child Rhaego died. Drogo was on the verge of dying, but he hadn't died yet when the ritual was performed. Afterward he survived - sort of - but he certainly wasn't the same. So what would be the opposite? Rhaegar was definitely killed when Robert put his warhammer in his head, so were they able to resurrect him? Seems questionable if all the elements of Drogo's ritual were there, but the opposite things happened. No dead red horse and no dead unborn child could have meant no resurrection. Dany ends up smothering Drogo, because he's not fully alive. Perhaps Rhaella ended up burning Rhaegar, because the ritual was stopped?

Just because the fever dream has Ned accusing the three Kingsguard of not being at the Trident doesn't mean that they couldn't have been there. It seems inconceivable that Rhaegar could have been killed if they had been there, but stranger things can and do happen, so take the "far away" comment with a grain of salt. Baelor, Aerion, and Ser Arlyn were never in Dorne with Dunk, yet in his dream they were.

I don't think I see as many similarities in Dunk and Ned's dreams as you do, but I can certainly agree that there are some. Dunk and Egg could be a parallel to Ned and Howland digging, but we never get that as part of Ned's dream. No digging. The only time we get information on Ned  pulling down a tower and making eight cairns with the rocks is in a sober, none feverish recollection of Ned, not a dream at all. Now, it's possible is memory is false, but nothing ties to that from Dunk's dream.

I am also not convinced of the connection of Lyanna and chestnut, although I have speculated that Lyanna's hair was not the dark brown of the Stark's, but possibly of a reddish or lighter brown hue or even blond. If we find out Lyanna's hair was chestnut (brownish-red) in color, I will be more able to see the connection to this horse. Lyanna was tied to her riding skills, but so was Brandon. 

I am certain that any graves Ned dug, he might have wept over. However, we are given the impression in the text that Ned had Lyanna's bones carried home and buried in the Winterfell crypts. It's possible they are not there, but then I think those bones are north, at the wall, perhaps. Lyanna is not buried in the south, I would bet money on that.

The idea that Dunk remembers threeDornish knights mocking him as he buried his horse is interesting, and I have heard the idea before that at the toj there were three knights who were not the actual kingsguard knights, as Ned's dreams suggest. Perhaps this is even your idea, I don't know, as I came across it a year or so back.  But some part of Ned's dream has to have some element of reality in it. It can't all be false. I certainly don't think Lyanna was at the toj, but the appendix of the book does report that she died in Dorne. Now, that might be to mislead us, or it might be true. I just don't think she was at the toj, and I am not sold on her being at Starfall, either.

There does seem to be a connection to the Big Rob in Dunk's dreams to what we know happened to Robert Baratheon, but Ned doesn't dream of Robert in his toj fever dream (besides the mention of The Usurper) and the Robert that is part of Ned's dreams from the black cells is hale and hearty. He does have Robert's words about being slaughtered by a pig, but no mention of Robert's wound in those black cells dreams. Interesting that Robert's face cracks and turns into Littlefinger's.

I would also guess that Dunk's dreams ties to Summerhall, and what we will find out truly happened there, or at least how Egg died. If a resurrection attempt happened, I think Summerhall is a great place for it to be, and a burned out Summerhall would no doubt have towers that had long fallen over. Now, as I mentioned up thread, I think Ned might have traveled the boneway on his journey into Dorne. The boneway starts near Summerhall, takes a route past the River Wyl and Castle Wyl and onto Yronwood lands. One of these places is where something happened with Ned after the rebellion, all of them would have the red mountains of Dorne in the background, but I really only have speculation. Again, Ned is tied to Baelor and Baelor traveled this path to make peace with Dorne, and then walked an even more dangerous path of viper's to get a family member back. Perhaps Ned did the same. Again, this is speculation on my part. Time will tell ... Baelor didn't die from his wounds but he became very ill and was forever changed by the ordeal, but he did get Aemon out of that cage. And then Aemon saved Baelor who was incapacitated from snake bites.

Baelor, Aerion, and Ser Arlyn might never have been in Dorne in life and still appeared as a dream in Dorne, but they are all still dead before Dunk has this dream, correct? As I haven't read the stories, the chronological order is not part of my knowledge. So perhaps the three kingsguard were not in Dorne either ... I am not sold one way or the other.

 

14 hours ago, Feather Crystal said:

"The stot" in Dunk's dream is Chestnut, and the gait of a horse during a tilt is usually trotting and/or galloping, or maybe "stotting".

Lyanna was said to be half a horse herself. Up thread I pointed out the parallels between the Knight of the Laughing Tree and Ser Loras's tilt against Ser Gregor. I will put the passage and analysis in spoiler tag for you in case you missed it:

I certainly can seem some similarities between Loras' joust and the imagery he presents that could mirror Lyanna. But Loras' horse is a sleek grey mare and not a chestnut old "stot". There is nothing similar in those two horses as I see it. The similarity comes in describing Loras' armor and the drapping of his grey mare that tie him to Lyanna.

 

14 hours ago, Feather Crystal said:

I understand that Howland was also a wraith in Ned's dream, and there's good reason for that. I think Howland is dead - well sort of. He's living his second life as a greenseer like Bran, and I go again to Dunk's dream for confirmation:

I don't really see the connection between Howland and Egg in Dunk's dream, as far as whether Howland is dead or not. I see the similarity between Howland a small man and Egg a young boy who served as a squire, but that's about all I see right now. When do you suspect Howland died and then how to Meera and Jojen tie our story. If Howland is dead, he isn't fathering children. He could certainly send them on quests if he is dead but he can't beget them. Now, Meera could have been fathered before the war, but Jojen could not be. Is tree Howland in a cave under the gods eye, or is he still in the Neck?

 

14 hours ago, Feather Crystal said:

Up thread I explained the connections between Baelor and Bael. In a nutshell, Targaryen names very often have "ae" in them, so I suspect that Bael the Bard was a Targaryen bastard. Also up thread I explained how "or" and "on" tagged onto Bael to get Baelor and Baelon might be slightly different. You can go back a few pages and read it here.

I remember. I actually think Bael is the child of Gael Targaryen and her elder married brother Baelon. The Winter child and the Spring Prince. Although I think Bael is a cover for what really happened to the Stark maid, just as I think Rhaegar is a cover for what really happened with Lyanna.

 

14 hours ago, Feather Crystal said:

The more we discuss it the more I'm convinced that the tower of joy is a metaphor for Ned's lies. He buried the lies along with eight other men, the rubble is the rubbish he told all those years, and the cairns represent how the lies have been buried in stone - stone symbolizes how he's put to rest and the extents of his lies. The tower of joy is likely still there, but as a "tower long fallen". The saying "a tower long fallen" could also be viewed as a metaphor, because Ned had propagated his lies for 16 years.

I don't see the "tower long fallen" in this way. I think it's an actual tower that meant something to Ned and Lyanna, and I doubt it was in Dorne, but I do think it existed. I think it was in the north, or at least north of the Trident. In response to your statement "I'm convinced that the tower of joy is a metaphor for Ned's lies", I don't agree that the toj is a metaphor for Ned's lies, but we all see things differently. After all the tower of joy is listed on multiple maps and I don't see how a metaphor for lies can exist on a map.

 

14 hours ago, Feather Crystal said:

The Dorne imagery in the fever dream is simply a metaphor for how Ned views his short affair with Ashara. Ashara flirted and danced with him on the rebound from Rhaegar. It was such a short indiscretion, but Ned was punished with a desert's worth of pain, lies, and sorrow. I've often wondered why anyone would return a sword. Tywin took Ned's sword Ice and made two different swords with the metal. I wouldn't be surprised if Arthur's sword Dawn turns up somewhere inside Winterfell...probably in the crypts - maybe even inside Lyanna's crypt?

While my very first instinct years ago was that Dawn is actually in Winterfell, and that is something that calls to Jon, I also think the sword called to Ned at some time. Not everyone see's the sword "alive with light" but in Ned's dream (yes, I know it's a dream) the sword was alive with light. Why? Perhaps because it's calling Ned, and that is why Arthur is sad. Because Arthur understands the sword is calling to someone else. SAD's reign as Sword of the Morning is almost done. Now perhaps that sword calls to Jon. If Dawn was a Stark sword long ago, or if the Dayne's and Stark's share a common relative, then Dawn seeking out a Stark makes some sense to me.

If Ned truly did return the sword, then it makes a ton of sense for the Dayne family to seem to hold Eddard Stark in some esteem. Ned and Tywin are clearly two different types of people, and to compare their possible actions doesn't fit for me at all.

 

14 hours ago, Feather Crystal said:

Ned obviously found Lyanna somewhere before she died, and he recalls her "bed of blood", but "bed of blood" doesn't necessarily mean childbirth, because King Robert laid in his bed of blood while dying from the boar's wound in his belly. On his way to see Robert, Ned experiences a little deja vu: 

If Lyanna had a child, which I am not convinced she did, but if she did, I think she had a normal birth with no complications. What she died from was some type of wound, a sword or knife most likely. A wound that slowly killed, even like Ned and Robert's, allowing time for fever and sepsis to set in.

 

15 hours ago, Feather Crystal said:

Do you recall what happened next? Robert had a change of heart regarding Dany, and told Ned that he believed the gods sent the boar to punish him for trying to have her killed. He pleaded with Ned to remain in Kings Landing and rule as King Regent and Protector of the Realm until Joffrey comes of age. But - Ned scratched out Joffrey's name and wrote "heir", because he knew Joff wasn't Robert's son. 

Quote

The deceit made him feel soiled. The lies we tell for love, he thought. May the gods forgive me.

The account of Robert extracting a promise from Ned while lying in his bed of blood implies that Lyanna extracted a similar promise. What was it that Ned concealed from Robert? Answer: the legitimacy of Joff's claim to the throne. This is evidence that Lyanna's pleading was about the legitimacy of Robert's claim to the throne. If everyone knew Rhaegar didn't kidnap her, then Robert's rule would be forever tainted. There would be no honor in his conquest.

Certainly, I don't think that Rhaegar's kidnapping of Lyanna is what happened, only what people think. I have toyed with the idea that it was Lyanna who kidnapped Rhaegar, much in the way we see Catelyn "take's" Tyrion. Everything went wrong and started a war, now and then. And yes, if the truth was known, that might cast doubt on Robert's crown, and is very likely one of the secrets that Ned kept. However, I think that Ned was keeping a secret about Dany from Robert, as well as the secret of Joffrey's true parentage. I think these parallel's work on multiple levels.

 

[Melifeather]

Lyanna doesn’t have to have reddish brown hair to be Chestnut.  The symbolism is coming from the association and definition of chestnuts rather than their color. The saying, “that old chestnut” or “old stot” is referring to the oft and old repeated stories that people have believed to be true - namely that Rhaegar kidnapped Lyanna. If you were to say to me, “Rhaegar is Jon’s father, because he’s the one that kidnapped Lyanna.” I could reply, “Oh, that old chestnut?!” It’s a way to acknowledge a commonly accepted story.

[Frey family reunion]

23 hours ago, Matthew. said:

By that same token, Tyrion notes several of Lemore's physical features, so a failure to observe Ashara's most persistently mentioned quality - haunting violet eyes - seems a glaring omission. 

I've wondered a bit, if Ashara might be a witch.   In the books, witchcraft seems to be a practice passed on from mother to daughter, or grandmother to daughter.  There is a bit of tease about the Westerling family who may have a "maternal" line of witchcraft, and whether or not Robb's rather inconvenient decision to marry Jeyne may have been the result of a little magical chicanery.    

We learn in one of the Dunk and Egg stories that one of Aegon's sisters tried to slip him a love potion.  And we later learn in the Worldbook, that Aegon's mother is a Dayne.  So perhaps his sister tried to use magic taught to her by their mother.  

If so, perhaps Ashara, practices an art passed on from Danish mother to daughter, and is using a glamor to disguise her most memorable feature.  Melisandre seems to center her glamors through her trademark rubies.  From what I recall, Lady Lemore wears a septon's crystal around her neck.  Perhaps the crystal is being used in a manner similar to Melisandre's ruby.

[Frey family reunion]

13 hours ago, Black Crow said:

As you know I'm all for simple explanations:

But is George?

13 hours ago, Black Crow said:

Her child is said to have been stillborn, ie; it vanishes from view

She is said to have killed herself by jumping off a tower into the sea, ie; she vanishes from view too.

She is said to have done so through grief for the child and grief for the man who had his wicked way with her, ie; he's dead too.

The latter point rules out Ned Stark and Trouserless Bob Baratheon who are both above ground at the time she disappears

Possible [dead] alternatives are Brandon Stark [popular choice], Lewen Martell [probably unlikely] and Rhaegar Targaryen...

 

Of course this is just Barristan's belief as to why Ashara killed herself.  And Barristan would not have been in a position to have known for a certainty since he would have been coalescing in King's Landing, when Ashara allegedly jumped from the tower.  Nor is it clear that Barristan would have known for a certainty who dishonored Ashara at Harrenhal.  

All we can really gather is that Barristan is of the belief that Ashara developed a relationship with a Stark at Harrenhal.  Though it can be argued, the implication is that Barristan believes this relationship dishonored Ashara.  And it also seems that he thinks that this disnhonor led to her pregnancy.  

He is also the first and so far only character who thinks about Ashara having a stillborn daughter.   The rumor in Winterfell is that Ashara gave birth to Eddard's son Jon.  And that rumor does not seem confined to Winterfell.  Cersei wonders aloud whether Ashara killed herself because Eddard killed Arthur Dayne, or because Eddard stole Jon from her.

I still think it's possible that Barristan believes Eddard was the one who disnhonored Ashara, if he means that Ashara "lost" Eddard through his marriage to Cat, or perhaps "lost" Eddard because he was the one who killed her brother.  

But of course it could mean that Barristan believes Brandon dishonored her.  Which does make since in a way, because TKOTLT story tells us that Brandon approached Ashara for Eddard.  This could have led Barristan to believe that Brandon was the one who dishonored Ashara.  And of course knowing Brandon's nature, this could be an accurate guess.