Heresy 210 and the Babes in the Wood

[Frey family reunion]

20 minutes ago, Tucu said:

Are Varys and Illyrio Blackfyre supporters or just equal opportunity dragon manipulators and investors?

From a genetics perspective there is not much difference between a Targ and a Blackfyre. I think that they do not care about this.

Actually at this stage of the game there may be a great deal of genetic difference between a Targaryen and a Blackfyre.  Initially the Blackfyres probably had additional dragon riding lineages that the royal line did not have.  The royal Targaryen line was descended from Viserys I who never could hatch a dragon, and the daughter of a Lysenean banker, who to the best of our knowledge never hatched or rode a dragon.  

While the Blackfyre line is descended from these two, through Aegon IV, they are also descended from Aegon III through Daena Blackfyre.  And Aegon III was a dragonrider.

Now over the years, the Targaryens introduced a number of different bloodines (Martell, Dayne, Blackwood), and we really aren't privy to the lineage of anyone claiming to be a Blackfyre today.

[Black Crow]

5 hours ago, Feather Crystal said:

OK - I've already come up with a possible answer - why would Varys and Illyrio back a Targaryen prince? They wouldn't unless they knew he was a Blackfyre.

Does it matter? A dragon is a dragon. Ultimately they belong to the same family. If Varys and Illyrio take Ashara Dayne and her bastard son by Rhaegar under their protection what's the problem.

After all when the moment comes the Blackfyre boys of the Golden Company swing themselves behind Young Griff Targaryen without a moment's hesitation.

[Melifeather]

13 minutes ago, Black Crow said:

Does it matter? A dragon is a dragon. Ultimately they belong to the same family. If Varys and Illyrio take Ashara Dayne and her bastard son by Rhaegar under their protection what's the problem.

After all when the moment comes the Blackfyre boys of the Golden Company swing themselves behind Young Griff Targaryen without a moment's hesitation.

IMO it does matter, and I think it would to the Golden Company as well, which has always been a Blackfyre company.

[Tucu]

1 hour ago, Frey family reunion said:

Actually at this stage of the game there may be a great deal of genetic difference between a Targaryen and a Blackfyre.  Initially the Blackfyres probably had additional dragon riding lineages that the royal line did not have.  The royal Targaryen line was descended from Viserys I who never could hatch a dragon, and the daughter of a Lysenean banker, who to the best of our knowledge never hatched or rode a dragon.  

While the Blackfyre line is descended from these two, through Aegon IV, they are also descended from Aegon III through Daena Blackfyre.  And Aegon III was a dragonrider.

Now over the years, the Targaryens introduced a number of different bloodines (Martell, Dayne, Blackwood), and we really aren't privy to the lineage of anyone claiming to be a Blackfyre today.

 

1 hour ago, PrettyPig said:

There is no genetic difference—it is all Targaryen.   Both Daeron and Daemon were products of Targ-Targ incest no matter who you think their actual parents were.   

Since Daeron’s wife was Martell and Daemon’s was Tyroshi, and all their descendants probably engaged in some combo of incest and marriage to other non- Targ houses, the percentage of true bloodline remaining would be about the same.    Blackfyre is still Targaryen even without the name.

 

 

As both lines were probably too diluted but via different paths; do we have any evidence that the Targs tried to unify the bloodlines? We have some weak evidence with Aerys I sending Steffron to Lys to find a bride for Rhaegar.

Dany is the one who woke the dragons so she could be a candidate. We have this quote as a very weak evidence:

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You are the blood of the dragon. Dragons plant no trees. Remember that. Remember who you are, what you were made to be. Remember your words.

A child of three that was made for a reason, not just born.

[Matthew.]

1 hour ago, Black Crow said:

Does it matter? A dragon is a dragon. Ultimately they belong to the same family. If Varys and Illyrio take Ashara Dayne and her bastard son by Rhaegar under their protection what's the problem.

To the Blackfyre supporters, it would matter--it's not about the genetics (the blood of the dragon), per se, but the factional dispute, so sneaking a Blackfyre onto the throne would be a victory.

That said, while I do think the Blackfyre line of thinking has merit, I actually think it's something of a false choice to suggest that Varys has to either be a Targaryen loyalist or a Blackfyre loyalist--if anything, his speech to Kevan Lannister suggests that the political currency that the name Aegon VI carries is just a means to an end, and that birthright rule is dumb, with an emphasis on the idea that Varys' enthusiasm for Aegon relates to the way he was raised, not to his "right" to rule. 

Similarly, Illyrio could be straightforwardly motivated by opportunism (perhaps with an added personal layer, if Aegon is his son), and the GC might just be glad to have a ticket home--even though some, like Connington, might be true believers in the cause.

[Brad Stark]

It mattered to Quentin, who thought he could steal a dragon and ended up lunch. 

We don't know what the criteria is, but simply being a descendent of Aegon the conqueror is not enough. 

[Brad Stark]

Varys does not seem to have been a true supporter of Aerys, Robert or the Lannisters.  Which makes it unlikely he is loyal to the main branch of the Targaryen family or anyone on the throne after.  Blackfire is the obvious other power seeking the throne. I don't think Varys is just interested in his own power the way Littlefinger is, but that is also possible. 

[PrettyPig]

23 minutes ago, Tucu said:

As both lines were probably too diluted but via different paths; do we have any evidence that the Targs tried to unify the bloodlines?

Through marriages?  No.   Through other means, like magic?   Mayyyybeeee...

18 minutes ago, Matthew. said:

That said, while I do think the Blackfyre line of thinking has merit, I actually think it's something of a false choice to suggest that Varys has to either be a Targaryen loyalist or a Blackfyre loyalist--if anything, his speech to Kevan Lannister suggests that the political currency that the name Aegon VI carries is just a means to an end, and that birthright rule is dumb, with an emphasis on the idea that Varys' enthusiasm for Aegon relates to the way he was raised, not to his "right" to rule. 

Right.  I believe Varys is playing his own long game re: high lords and their game of thrones, and his long game may be in the end quite at odds with Illyrio, the GC, etc.

[Frey family reunion]

1 hour ago, Tucu said:

As both lines were probably too diluted but via different paths; do we have any evidence that the Targs tried to unify the bloodlines? We have some weak evidence with Aerys I sending Steffron to Lys to find a bride for Rhaegar.

Dany is the one who woke the dragons so she could be a candidate.

This is my suspicion. 

I have two lines of thought on the matter.  One is that the ability to be a dragonlord never completely left the Targaryen line, but instead became a recessive trait.  It just took many different attempts for the recessive genes to line up in the incestuous pairings we got with Jahearys, his sister/wife, and Aerys and Rhaella.  In this scenario, Dany is the daughter of Aerys and Rhaella, and it just happens that she wins the genetic lottery. 

The other line of thought is that the "magical genetics" requires a certain combination of genes, and around the time of the Dance of Dragons, these magical bloodlines branch off into different directions.  Dany is a result of these bloodlines coming back together, and as your quote suggests, this is what she was "made" for.  So in this scenario, Dany is not the daughter of Aerys and Rhaella, because their bloodline has shown to be genetically lacking something necessary to be a dragon lord.  She may be the daughter of one, but not of both.  So one of her parents may be a Blackfyre descendant, or a Plumm descendant, or a Longwater descendant, or a Velaryon descendant, or some combination thereof. 

I don't remember who came up with this theory, but I found it a very tempting one.  There was a suggestion that Dany's childhood memory of a "red door" might actually be the result of a red lamp over the door.  In other words a brothel.  We have this description of Chatayla's establishment (the brothel with the secret passage into the Red Keep):

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The house was two stories tall, stone below and timber above.  A round turret rose from one corner of the structure.  Many of the windows were leaded.  Over the door swung an ornate lamp, a globe of gilded metal and scarlet glass.

So what I'm suggesting is that Dany may be the daughter of a prostitute, who herself was perhaps genetically bred through a maternal line of prostitutes, where the goal was to bring together these bloodlines that branched off from the Targaryen line.  This prostitute in turn may have been brought to the Red Keep for the express purpose of either seducing or tricking Aerys into conceiving a child with him.

Dany is born, lives the first few years of her life at the brothel, and then at a very young age is brought to Dorne, perhaps to one of the house boats on the Greenblood river, which as we learn in Arianne's chapters overlook a grove of lemon trees.  And then she is taken by Oberyn, perhaps, to Braavos, where she is given to Viserys and Darry as someone they can use to pose as Viserys' sister to use as currency to secure an army.

Now if you think that's crazy,  here comes the rabbit hole, so watch your head.  This line of thought brings me to the House of the Undying and what exactly may be happening in Dany's "vision".  It's confusing because it seems a mishmash of glimpses of past events that actually occurred, and visions of future events told in a very symbolic fashion, akin to a green dream or a dragon dream.  And the whole thing starts out with a beautiful woman being ravaged by little rat faced men.  I wonder if Dany somehow becomes psychically linked to her mother in the HOTUD, and she is looking through her mother's eyes, and she is viewing her mother's memories, dreams and/or visions.

So the first vision, is an early childhood memory of Dany's mother seeing her own mother ravaged by the customers of the brothel.  Dany is just seeing the vision as a child might remember it.  Then the vision shifts to scenes in the Red Keep, which her mother actually observed.  Including where Aerys addresses his pyromancer, and where Rhaegar and Elia discuss Aegon.  My thought is Dany's mother may have been at both locations.  Then Dany is seeing visions of future events through the eyes of her mother, who may very well have prophetic dreams, especially if it turns out that she is the result of genetic engineering of Targaryen bloodlines.

ETA: and yes my suspicion is that Quaithe may be Dany's mom.

[PrettyPig]

36 minutes ago, Frey family reunion said:

I don't remember who came up with this theory, but I found it a very tempting one.  There was a suggestion that Dany's childhood memory of a "red door" might actually be the result of a red lamp over the door.  In other words a brothel.  

That was me, as part of my Extreme Tinfoil  “Wherever Whores Go” Research Series.  Lol

But yeah, I am certain that Dany’s early years were spent in a brothel (there is tons of subtle support for it), and I’ll even go one further — if she is the daughter of Ashara Dayne by Rhaegar, I think she may have ended up in this position because her mother fled to Essos.

i am working on a massive Ashara Dayne project right now that goes into this in exhaustive detail, again, deducing what happened in the past by looking at the current story.   And it involves prostitution and black magic, so there’s that.

[Tucu]

5 minutes ago, PrettyPig said:

That was me, as part of my Extreme Tinfoil  “Wherever Whores Go” Research Series.  Lol

But yeah, I am certain that Dany’s early years were spent in a brothel (there is tons of subtle support for it), and I’ll even go one further — if she is the daughter of Ashara Dayne by Rhaegar, I think she may have ended up in this position because her mother fled to Essos.

i am working on a massive Ashara Dayne project right now that goes into this in exhaustive detail, again, deducing what happened in the past by looking at the current story.   And it involves prostitution and black magic, so there’s that.

I have a related suspicion: Dany was raised in the red temple in Dorne for a time. The brothel theme still stands as the red priests buy children to raise them as temple prostitutes.

[Black Crow]

13 hours ago, Matthew. said:

To the Blackfyre supporters, it would matter--it's not about the genetics (the blood of the dragon), per se, but the factional dispute, so sneaking a Blackfyre onto the throne would be a victory.

The point remains that Jon Connington introduced Young Griff to the last remains of Team Blackfyre as Aegon Targaryen and they all threw their sweaty nightcaps in the air without a hint of a knowing wink among the lot of them.

While as for the higher-priced help, it was his education and manifold virtues which were lauded rather than his bloodline and entitlement

[JNR]

20 hours ago, Frey family reunion said:

Aurane is an acknowledged bastard of a former Lord Velaryon, so there would have to be a scenario where a Lord Velaryon would falsely acknowledge one of Aerys' bastards.

Well, he's called the Bastard of Driftmark.  But we can't name either of his parents, now, can we?

And such a scenario is easy to imagine.  A Velaryon chooses a mistress because she's attractive.  Surprise, surprise -- Aerys also thinks she's attractive.  She has a child.  The Velaryon believes he's the father of this woman's child, but this is not a world in which DNA testing is available.

Meanwhile, we have Cersei looking at Aurane and on multiple occasions being struck by his extraordinary resemblance to Rhaegar...

[JNR]

Actually, for that matter, Aurane could theoretically be a bastard of Rhaegar's.

But that would require Rhaegar to have been interested in girls when he was a teenager, and there is of course no record of such an extraordinary thing.

[Frey family reunion]

22 minutes ago, JNR said:

Well, he's called the Bastard of Driftmark.  But we can't name either of his parents, now, can we?

No, unless his father is Lord Monford Velaryon, the one who died in the Battle of Blackwater.  The wiki assumes that Aurane and Monford are half-brothers, but of course they cite the "Fapp" to come to this conclusion.  I assume that someone came to this conclusion because Monford's heir was only six years old at the time of Monford's death, so they assume Monford was a relatively young man.  Of course that doesn't preclude the possibility that Monford married fairly late in life.

I do think that there may be something under the surface being hinted at in regards to Monford.  He apparently was hell bent on invading King's Landing, and the sooner the better:

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Velaryon will threaten to take his levies home unless we strike at once.

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"Pylos is the least of it.  The letter ... What did your lords make of it, I wonder?"

Stannis snorted.  "Celtigar pronounced it admirable.  If I showed him the contents of my privy, he would declare that admirable as well.  The others bobbed their heads up and down like a flock of geese, all but Velaryon, who said that steel would decide the matter, not words on parchment."

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"You were speaking of your council?"

"Let me tell you how it will go.  Lord Velaryon will urge me to storm the castle walls at first light, grapnels and scaling ladders against arrows and boiling oil."

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Lord Velaryon and your friend Salladhor Saan would have had me sail against Joffrey, but Melisandre told me that if I went to Storm's End, I would win the best part of my brother's power, and she was right."

And then there is this hint, that there may be a back story to Lord Velaryon, we aren't aware of yet, while Melisandre was burning the statues of the seven:

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Nearby, Lord Celtigar coughed fitfully and covered his wrinkled face with a square of linen embroidered in red crabs.  The Myrmen swapped jokes as they enjoyed the warmth of the fire, but young Lord Bar Emmon had turned a splotchy grey, and Lord Velaryon was watching the king rather than the conflagration.

Davos would have given much to know what he was thinking, but one such as Velaryon would never confide in him.  The Lord of the Tides was of the blood of ancient Valyria, and his House had thrice provided brides for Targaryen princes; Davos Seaworth stank of fish and onions.

 

42 minutes ago, JNR said:

And such a scenario is easy to imagine.  A Velaryon chooses a mistress because she's attractive.  Surprise, surprise -- Aerys also thinks she's attractive.  She has a child.  The Velaryon believes he's the father of this woman's child, but this is not a world in which DNA testing is available.

Yes this is possible.  However, it would have come at an inconvenient time.  In AFFC, Aurane is supposed to be 22 years of age.  This would have placed his conception either during Duskendale, or immediately after Dunskendale, when a shattered Aerys locked himself up in the Red Keep.  I'm not saying it's impossible, I'm just saying it's awkward.

 

46 minutes ago, JNR said:

Meanwhile, we have Cersei looking at Aurane and on multiple occasions being struck by his extraordinary resemblance to Rhaegar...

Indeed.  I have my own theory that this may say more about Rhaegar's parentage, than it does Aurane's.

[St Daga]

On 7/25/2018 at 1:13 PM, Tucu said:

I am still betting on the ToJ being the end of a killing spree by Ned at the request of Lyanna. "Someone told. Someone always tells"? Not when Eddard Stark is in charge.

Ned was chasing them since the Trident

I do like this interpretation. Not sure if it will work out quite that way, but I do think there is a methodical justice to the Stark's that we are seeing woven into the story in the present (Arya' list, Jon's execution of Slynt, etc) that probably has a counterpoint in the past.

 

On 7/25/2018 at 2:43 PM, Feather Crystal said:

I'd like to redirect your attention to what Dunk said about his dream: 

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  His head was pounding, and he could not forget the dream he dreamed the night before. It never happened that way, he tried to tell himself. It wasn’t like that. Chestnut had died on the long dry ride to Vaith, that part was true. He and Egg rode double until Egg’s brother gave them Maester. The rest of it, though…

Any of the details of Ned's fever dream are suspect. If you are using details from the dream to support a theory, you're building a foundation on sand.

I would guess there is very little hard truth in the toj dream, but there must be some aspects of the truth. Just as you point out that part of the reality in Dunk's dream was that Chestnut died. Some part of reality is in play in the dream. So, some aspect of Ned's dream must have reality in it, but figuring out what that part is is where the difficulty lies. And then deciding how many other "realities" play into the other details of Ned's dream, plus how, where and when is a huge part of this puzzle.

 

On 7/25/2018 at 2:55 PM, Frey family reunion said:

Another explanation is that Eddard had found Lyanna before the Trident, where she was in bad shape.  And he returns to her after the events of the tower of joy, when she finally succumbs to her injuries. 

Which brings me back to Tucu's original question.  Why would Eddard be looking for these three Kingsguards as early as the Trident?  Is it a killing spree?  I don't know, Eddard doesn't really seem the type, but I won't discount it.

This fits the details we are given. Lyanna found before the Trident, giving Ned information and Robert a reason to kill Rhaegar. Then we have Ned's odd thought about Lyanna's death reconciling Ned and Robert, so that seems to have happened after Ned left KL to head south and finish the final battles of the war, then Lyanna's death after this was completed. It certainly hint's that Lyanna was not at the toj, although she might have had some knowledge of it.

Of course, there is the possibility that GRRM just made a mistake in the text, and he chose words poorly. He isn't infallible and he has made mistakes before, and early in the text. I am thinking about Renly's green eyes, in this case.

 

On 7/25/2018 at 3:03 PM, JNR said:

For one thing, if they were turncloaks, there's no chance at all Ned would think of Dayne as the finest knight he ever saw, but he does.

SAD was perhaps seen by Ned to be trapped by his vows, whether that is knighthood vows, kingsgaurd vows, or personal vows, I can't say. Of course, Ned seems to revile Jaime for breaking one of those same vows. So, perhaps SAD should have broken a vow and didn't (which relates to his sadness in Ned's dream) and which Ned honor's him for, while Jaime breaks a vow and kills a tyrant while Ned forever blames Jaime for his lack of honor. These are complicated emotions that GRRM is giving these characters.

 

On 7/25/2018 at 4:28 PM, Feather Crystal said:

The passage below indicates that an army was assembling outside the castle while Jaime spoke with Rhaegar, but that another army was already at the Trident. Is it possible that Hightower, Whent, and Dayne were already at the Trident with the army that was engaged, because Jaime suggested one of the other two remaining Kingsguard (Barristan or Darry) stay with Aerys rather than himself? 

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  The day had been windy when he said farewell to Rhaegar, in the yard of the Red Keep. The prince had donned his night-black armor, with the three-headed dragon picked out in rubies on his breastplate. “Your Grace,” Jaime had pleaded, “let Darry stay to guard the king this once, or Ser Barristan. Their cloaks are as white as mine.”

  Prince Rhaegar shook his head. “My royal sire fears your father more than he does our cousin Robert. He wants you close, so Lord Tywin cannot harm him. I dare not take that crutch away from him at such an hour.”

  Jaime’s anger had risen up in his throat. “I am not a crutch. I am a knight of the Kingsguard.”

  “Then guard the king,” Ser Jon Darry snapped at him. “When you donned that cloak, you promised to obey.”

  Rhaegar had put his hand on Jaime’s shoulder. “When this battle’s done I mean to call a council. Changes will be made. I meant to do it long ago, but . . . well, it does no good to speak of roads not taken. We shall talk when I return.”

  Those were the last words Rhaegar Targaryen ever spoke to him. Outside the gates an army had assembled, whilst another descended on the Trident. So the Prince of Dragonstone mounted up and donned his tall black helm, and rode forth to his doom.

  He was more right than he knew. When the battle was done, there were changes made. “Aerys thought no harm could come to him if he kept me near,” he told his father’s corpse. “Isn’t that amusing?” Lord Tywin seemed to think so; his smile was wider than before. He seems to enjoy being dead.

 

 

I have always interpreted that "other" army at the Trident was the combined army of the north, the vale and the riverlands that was descending on the Trident. Perhaps it wasn't, though... Another thought is that perhaps Rhaegar's army that left KL was from the south, while they were meeting another loyalist army that had been gathered from the riverlands.

 

On 7/26/2018 at 1:26 PM, Frey family reunion said:

So then he gets the message calling him back to King's Landing to save his sister.  Instead he chooses, to try and step up and save the realm.

Perhaps we are seeing an echo of something very similar to this that happened with Ned and Lyanna. Ned perhaps could have saved Lyanna but made choices that left her vulnerable while he continued to fight "Robert's war" and settle the final battles in the south? If Jaime never makes it back to help Cersei, will he be haunted by his decision?

 

On 7/26/2018 at 3:01 PM, Feather Crystal said:

Sansa and Arya are mirroring Ashara and Lyanna. Both Stark sisters were brought to Kings Landing by their father, and both escaped Kings Landing in disguise and at different times.

Arya escaped first after seeing her father beheaded. I propose that Lyanna may have been sent to court as one of Rhaella's ladies in waiting. She may have even done similar things that Arya did outside and inside the castle. 

Sansa mirrors Ashara. Sansa was more concerned about the day to day goings on about court, but Ashara was different in that she was unwed and pregnant. We have to look to Lollys experiences to get a feel for how Ashara moved about? She too would have needed a disguise like Sansa if she had left with Jon Connington.

This could work. Lyanna perhaps was already missing in Kings Landing but managed to witness Rickard and Brandon's deaths before being snuck out of King's Landing, while Ashara was stuck behind for far longer, eventually being smuggled out of KL wrapped in a hooded cloak, if it was Ashara that Jaime witnessed leaving KL to go to Dragonstone (she might have never actually gone to Dragonstone) just as Sansa is bundled out of KL after the purple wedding wrapped in the protective layers of a hooded cloak. So, then how much of Arya's journey in the riverlands is retracing Lyanna's steps? A little or a lot? There has to be some similarities and some major differences.

 

On 7/26/2018 at 3:01 PM, Feather Crystal said:

Before passing out Ned sees the Red Keep, which seems to be a parallel to the red mountains of Dorne, looming in the distance, and thought that the massive pink walls seemed to turn to the color of blood.

This is nice! I have never compared the red mountains of Dorne and the walls of the Red Keep before. Perhaps it is this image of the Red Keep that Ned has after he is wounded is what actually places his toj dream near the red mountains of Dorne? 

I would like to think that the toj didn't really exist in Dorne at all, but it's shown on the damn map. I have always felt that Lyanna's death place was more north than south, but again, we have the toj placed in Dorne and Lyanna's place of death being listed as Dorne. Are these things true, are they meant to mislead us, or are they based on the "official story" and what is assumed to be true?

 

On 7/26/2018 at 4:20 PM, Feather Crystal said:

Ned's attack outside of Chataya's as being mirrored in Lynesse's choice in becoming a prostitute suggests that Lyanna was connected to either brothels or the profession. The prostitutes in the series have been for the most part portrayed as willing or voluntary, so whatever happened to place Lyanna near or inside a brothel, she was there of her own volition. Of course I think its important to understand that it could have been just a disguise or a place to hide, just as Littlefinger hid Catelyn in one of his brothels. Arya was persuaded by Yoren to dress as a boy, so perhaps Lyanna was persuaded to dress as a prostitute, but by whom? Parallels suggest it was someone "Baelish". Maybe Rhaegar told Lyanna to hide in a brothel? Just throwing that idea out there.

 

On 7/26/2018 at 3:58 PM, PrettyPig said:

You might be better served to look at this relationship in different terms... that is, that Tregar Ormollen didn’t “steal” Lynesse from Jorah at all.   Lynesse totally bailed on Jorah all on her own once he was no longer able to provide her what she wanted.    Lynesse was so determined to have what she wanted that she was willing to become a glorified prostitute and give over her body as necessary to make that happen, thus becoming Tregar’s favorite concubine.  Jorah had nothing to do with Lynesse’s personal choices beyond enabling them as a total chump. 

The moral of the story is that a woman was his downfall- he gave her his seed and he gave her his soul, and then she disappeared as he fell to ruin.

What’s fun is figuring out who else in the current story this applies to...there are a couple.  

I recall that you have some theory regarding brothels and Lyanna. What was the gist again?

There does seem to be a little trigger for Ned when a woman in his family is associated with a brothel. We see this when LF hides Cat in a brothel and Ned is so angry he puts a knife to LF's throat. I do suspect that this is a reaction to something that happened in the past, something to do with Lyanna. Ned doesn't seem to be offended by brothel's in general, or what happens there, but he is touchy when "his women" are linked to brothels. That is at least an idea that I have been toying with.

 

On 7/26/2018 at 6:39 PM, PrettyPig said:

Here's the full passage about the Clanking Dragon:

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"Later it passed to a crippled knight named Long Jon Heddle, who took up ironworking when he grew too old to fight. He forged a new sign for the yard, a three-headed dragon of black iron that he hung from a wooden post. The beast was so big it had to be made in a dozen pieces, joined with rope and wire. When the wind blew it would clank and clatter, so the inn became known far and wide as the Clanking Dragon.” “Is the dragon sign still there?” asked Podrick. “No,” said Septon Meribald. “When the smith’s son was an old man, a bastard son of the fourth Aegon rose up in rebellion against his trueborn brother and took for his sigil a black dragon. These lands belonged to Lord Darry then, and his lordship was fiercely loyal to the king. The sight of the black iron dragon made him wroth, so he cut down the post, hacked the sign into pieces, and cast them into the river. One of the dragon’s heads washed up on the Quiet Isle many years later, though by that time it was red with rust."

Most intrigued by the underlined, and the fact that one member of House Heddle, "Black Tom", supported the Blackfyres in the 2nd Rebellion.   After the current owner of the inn (now known as the Inn of the Crossroads) is killed, the place not only becomes a brothel, but a rendezvous point for the Brotherhood Without Banners, which is a modern mirror to the Kingswood Brotherhood, the group of thieves that I am 99.9% certain was part of a fledgling 6th Blackfyre rebellion.   Beautiful!

Just a couple thoughts on The Clanking Dragon. I will agree that the Inn is important now and multiple times in history in the past. But the idea of the dragon clanking reminds me of two things. In the story, when clanking is mentioned, it is mostly associated with weapons clanking or chains clanking. So, the iron of the dragon sign that clanks could be indication of either a weapon for a dragon, or perhaps an imprisonment of a dragon in our story. What happens when something is finally freed of it's chains? Or if a weapon is loosed on the realm? 

More specifically, Edd talks to Jon about clanking weapons in the same passage that he mentions that the axe that Mormont gifted to Craster will probably end up buried in the old man's head. This also relates perhaps to the idea of the inn as the Bell Ringer, as Edd also mentions that perhaps Craster would like a hat. 

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Dolorous Edd was feeding the horses. "Give the wildling an axe, why not?" He pointed out Mormont's weapon, a short-hafted battle-axe with gold scrollwork inlaid on the black steel blade. "He'll give it back, I vow. Buried in the Old Bear's skull, like as not. Why not give him all our axes, and our swords as well? I mislike the way they clank and rattle as we ride. We'd travel faster without them, straight to hell's door. Does it rain in hell, I wonder? Perhaps Craster would like a nice hat instead." ACOK-Jon III

The hat hints at a helm, and a helm that comes into contact with a sword or weapon would certainly clank. Just as chains and other weapons clank. I need to think on this a bit more.

 

[Matthew.]

10 hours ago, Black Crow said:

The point remains that Jon Connington introduced Young Griff to the last remains of Team Blackfyre as Aegon Targaryen and they all threw their sweaty nightcaps in the air without a hint of a knowing wink among the lot of them.

There's a difference between being a member of the current iteration of the Golden Company and being a Blackfyre supporter--some members are not even Westerosi, and others are more recent exiles (eg, Duck) who have no relationship to the Blackfyre rebellion; it is a collection of strays, many of whom would gladly attach themselves to any cause that will bring them home.

In any theoretical scenario where there are Blackfyre supporters still remaining - and, to be clear, I'm not sold on that theory, and I'm not necessarily convinced that Aegon VI is either a Targ or a Blackfyre - it may be that only Illyrio, Varys, and Myles Toyne/Blackheart know the truth, the plans they made "known to them alone," according to Connington.

Edit: The point of the above being that it is Myles Toyne that committed the GC to the conspiracy, and what he knew (if anything) about Aegon may have been a decisive factor in that commitment. It could alternately be the case that Harry Strickland was let in on whatever it was that Toyne knew, the rest of the GC briefed by Strickland, and that Connington himself and Aegon are the most ignorant members of the conspiracy.

It's not wholly clear at what point Connington is brought into the conspiracy; the bits and pieces of story we have, as Connington tells it, is that he spent five years in exile with the Golden Company before being driven from the company in disgrace and presumed to have drunk himself to death, living afterward as Griff with his "son." 

[St Daga]

On 7/27/2018 at 12:46 AM, Tucu said:

Rhaegar and Ashara or any other combination. I am thinking that Rhaegar and company were collecting Targ bastards either to protect them from Aerys' dragon awakening experiments or to use them on Rhaegar's own experiments. Both of them were obsessed with dragons so it could be either way.

Both of them? As in Rhaegar and Aerys? How do we really know that either Rhaegar or Aerys was obsessed with dragons. We are given the information that Rhaegar was interested in the Prince that was Promised prophecy, but that is open to interpretation that this was about dragons or not. And even if it is, interested and obsessed are not really the same. And some of that comes from Aemon's mutterings and dreams when he is near death.

As to Aerys, we have this:

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"Though if truth be told, I do not believe he truly expected to die. Like Aerion Brightfire before him, Aerys thought the fire would transform him . . . that he would rise again, reborn as a dragon, and turn all his enemies to ash." ASOS-Jaime V

Does Jaime really think this is what Aerys hopes were? To come back as a dragon, or is Jaime projecting what he knows about some other Targaryen's, such as Aerion Brightfire, onto Aerys. Jaime says that Aerys said he wanted to leave Robert nothing but charred bones and cooked meat and ashes, But I am not sure that equals obsession with dragons. 

The world book does give us this:

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In the wake of Duskendale, the king also began to display signs of an ever-increasing obsession with dragonfire, similar to that which had haunted several of his forebears.  In the wake of Duskendale, the king also began to display signs of an ever-increasing obsession with dragonfire, similar to that which had haunted several of his forebears. Lord Darklyn would never have dared defy him if he had been a dragonrider, Aerys reasoned. His attempts to bring forth dragons from eggs found in the depths of Dragonstone (some so old that they had turned to stone) yielded naught, however.

Frustrated, Aerys turned to the Wisdoms of the ancient Guild of Alchemists, who knew the secret of producing the volatile jade green substance known as wildfire, said to be a close cousin to dragonflame. The pyromancers became a regular fixture at his court as the king's fascination with fire grew. By 280 AC, Aerys II had taken to burning traitors, murderers, and plotters, rather than hanging or beheading them. The king seemed to take great pleasure in these fiery executions, which were presided over by Wisdom Rossart, the grand master of the Guild of Alchemists...so much so that he granted Rossart the title of Lord and gave him a seat upon the small council. TWOIAF-The Targaryen Kings: Aerys II

So, it does seem like Aerys might have tried some experimentation with dragon eggs, but his true obsession was the wild fire. Also, this is from the world book, which was written for Robert, so it has no reason to attempt to make Aerys look like anything but obsessed and mad and cruel, unworthy to rule!

 

On 7/27/2018 at 8:56 AM, JNR said:

I think the text has suggested some candidates, Aurane Waters being the most obvious, and there's a northern one as well...

Who is the northern candidate to be Aerys bastard? Besides the theories on Jon, of course. 

 

22 hours ago, Tucu said:

Dany is the one who woke the dragons so she could be a candidate. We have this quote as a very weak evidence:

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You are the blood of the dragon. Dragons plant no trees. Remember that. Remember who you are, what you were made to be. Remember your words.

A child of three that was made for a reason, not just born.

 

21 hours ago, Frey family reunion said:

This is my suspicion. 

I have two lines of thought on the matter.  One is that the ability to be a dragonlord never completely left the Targaryen line, but instead became a recessive trait.  It just took many different attempts for the recessive genes to line up in the incestuous pairings we got with Jahearys, his sister/wife, and Aerys and Rhaella.  In this scenario, Dany is the daughter of Aerys and Rhaella, and it just happens that she wins the genetic lottery. 

The other line of thought is that the "magical genetics" requires a certain combination of genes, and around the time of the Dance of Dragons, these magical bloodlines branch off into different directions.  Dany is a result of these bloodlines coming back together, and as your quote suggests, this is what she was "made" for.  So in this scenario, Dany is not the daughter of Aerys and Rhaella, because their bloodline has shown to be genetically lacking something necessary to be a dragon lord.  She may be the daughter of one, but not of both.  So one of her parents may be a Blackfyre descendant, or a Plumm descendant, or a Longwater descendant, or a Velaryon descendant, or some combination thereof. 

The child of three comment has always been hard for me to puzzle out. But perhaps Dany is the joining back of three important blood lines. Targaryen, Blackfyre and perhaps Brightflame/Brightfire. They are all three descended from Aegon and his sisters, our original dragon riders.

Although I have speculated for a long time now that it is the Velaryon blood that is important, either for dragon riding or dragon hatching. Aegon and his sisters had a Velaryon mother, and we know of dragon riding Velaryon's (not counting Rhaenyra's "strong" son's from her marriage to Leanor Velaryon) but Laenor and his sister Laena were both dragon riders. I think House Velaryon is an important part of the puzzle. So perhaps Dany has some Velaryon blood that is part of her "child of three" if this does indicate important blood lines.

The idea of Dany being "made" to do what she does is one that has completely slipped by me in the past. Nice!

 

3 hours ago, Frey family reunion said:

 

4 hours ago, JNR said:

Meanwhile, we have Cersei looking at Aurane and on multiple occasions being struck by his extraordinary resemblance to Rhaegar...

Indeed.  I have my own theory that this may say more about Rhaegar's parentage, than it does Aurane's.

I do think there is reason to suspect that Rhaegar might not be the child of both Aerys and Rhaella. I wonder if Aerys began to suspect as well, and that is why he named Viserys his heir. I have wondered if Viserys was named heir before Rhaegar even left for the Trident, and Rhaegar might only have been fighting for the safety of his wife and children, and not to place a crown on his own head. 

The above speculation that Aerys and Rhaella never had a living child together is intriguing. If that is the case, I have no problem seeing Rhaegar and Dany as not the children of this marriage (I don't think Dany is the child of either Aerys or Rhaella), but I do question Viserys' parentage. There are several times in text that Viserys is likened to Aerys, so if Viserys is Aerys son, then who is the mother, and how did this child get snuck into the nursery of the Red Keep? And would Rhaella really support Aerys bastard as the heir to the throne?

 

 

[Tucu]

27 minutes ago, St Daga said:

Both of them? As in Rhaegar and Aerys? How do we really know that either Rhaegar or Aerys was obsessed with dragons. We are given the information that Rhaegar was interested in the Prince that was Promised prophecy, but that is open to interpretation that this was about dragons or not. And even if it is, interested and obsessed are not really the same. And some of that comes from Aemon's mutterings and dreams when he is near death.

For Rhaegar we have Aemon's opinion that TPTWP is about dragons; given the exchange of ideas between Aemon and Rhaegar it is a reasonable assumption that Rhaegar wanted dragons.

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Xhondo's talk of dragons had almost seemed to restore the old man to himself. That night he ate every bite Sam put before him. "No one ever looked for a girl," he said. "It was a prince that was promised, not a princess. Rhaegar, I thought . . . the smoke was from the fire that devoured Summerhall on the day of his birth, the salt from the tears shed for those who died. He shared my belief when he was young, but later he became persuaded that it was his own son who fulfilled the prophecy, for a comet had been seen above King's Landing on the night Aegon was conceived, and Rhaegar was certain the bleeding star had to be a comet. What fools we were, who thought ourselves so wise! The error crept in from the translation. Dragons are neither male nor female, Barth saw the truth of that, but now one and now the other, as changeable as flame. The language misled us all for a thousand years. Daenerys is the one, born amidst salt and smoke. The dragons prove it." Just talking of her seemed to make him stronger. "I must go to her. I must. Would that I was even ten years younger."

How far would he go for dragons we don't know. What we know is that a nice guy like Egg was willing to resort to (blood)magic and sacrifices.

[Melifeather]

The prince that was promised prophecy seems to be tied to successfully hatching dragons, at least that is Maester Aemon's conclusion. All the rituals, sacrifices, and burnings, namely the Summerhal tragedy, Aerys II experiments, and I suspect Rhaegar's cremation, were all attempts to hatch dragons. They thought if a dragon was hatched at the end of it that the person responsible was the prince(ss) that was promised, however I suspect they are misinterpreting the prophecy. IMO the "prince(ss)" that was promised is the dragon hatched. In essence, you do this, this, and this, and if you do it right - you get a dragon. That's the promise.