Heresy 210 and the Babes in the Wood

[Melifeather]

21 minutes ago, Tucu said:

I think Aegon wanted to sacrifice himself and his first born to give birth to dragons again. He failed as he didn't have the full recipe and the right ingredients.

The transfer of spirit could have happened accidentally, but it does seem deliberate on GRRMs part that he has Rhaegar’s birth occurring on the same day as the Summerhal tragedy, and then Rhaego’s birth occurring during the tent ritual.

[Tucu]

18 minutes ago, Feather Crystal said:

The transfer of spirit could have happened accidentally, but it does seem deliberate on GRRMs part that he has Rhaegar’s birth occurring on the same day as the Summerhal tragedy, and then Rhaego’s birth occurring during the tent ritual.

There is a chance that some soul transfer happened, but this quote from the world books makes me believe that Dunk interrupted the ritual too early:

Quote

… the blood of the dragon gathered in one …
… seven eggs, to honor the seven gods, though the king’s own septon had warned …
… pyromancers …
… wild fire …
… flames grew out of control … towering … burned so hot that …
… died, but for the valor of the Lord Comman …

Aegon V probably used to many eggs too.

[Melifeather]

29 minutes ago, Tucu said:

There is a chance that some soul transfer happened, but this quote from the world books makes me believe that Dunk interrupted the ritual too early:

Aegon V probably used to many eggs too.

I have a feeling that the hidden details of the tragedy will be revealed somehow, either through weirwood visions or outright descriptions by Leaf or one of the other children...or maybe the woods witch Arya met. 

[Brad Stark]

I believe Aegon hatched his eggs, but the measters didn't want the Dragons back and sabotaged the whole thing.  The red comet appeared that day. 

[Tucu]

12 minutes ago, Feather Crystal said:

I have a feeling that the hidden details of the tragedy will be revealed somehow, either through weirwood visions or outright descriptions by Leaf or one of the other children...or maybe the woods witch Arya met. 

My bet is on a final Dunk&Egg novella on this after (if?) ASOIAF is finished.

[PrettyPig]

53 minutes ago, Tucu said:

There is a chance that some soul transfer happened, but this quote from the world books makes me believe that Dunk interrupted the ritual too early:

I think the current-day equivalent of this will turn out to be Jorah carrying Dany inside Mirri’s tent (as the shadows dance) as she goes into labor- entry during the ritual being something that Mirri expressly said was verboten.     Rhaego dies (supposedly), but she is able to hatch her dragons.   Dany even wonders after what consequences a wounded Jorah may have suffered as a result of that act.

Perhaps LC Dunk in his show of valor went against orders and carried a laboring Rhaella OUT - the baby lives, the dragons do not.   And obviously we know what consequences befell Dunk as a result of his actions...

[Tucu]

2 minutes ago, PrettyPig said:

I think the current-day equivalent of this will turn out to be Jorah carrying Dany inside Mirri’s tent (as the shadows dance) as she goes into labor- entry during the ritual being something that Mirri expressly said was verboten.     Rhaego dies (supposedly), but she is able to hatch her dragons.   Dany even wonders after what consequences a wounded Jorah may have suffered as a result of that act.

Perhaps LC Dunk in his show of valor went against orders and carried a laboring Rhaella OUT - the baby lives, the dragons do not.   And obviously we know what consequences befell Dunk as a result of his actions...

I would go with the second option; this is one of those inversions that @Feather Crystal likes so much. I would join the last two phrases of that quote this way:

Quote

burned so hot that everybody would have died, but for the valor of the Lord Commander

Too bad Gyldayn was killed while he wrote the letter :-)

[Melifeather]

2 hours ago, PrettyPig said:

I think the current-day equivalent of this will turn out to be Jorah carrying Dany inside Mirri’s tent (as the shadows dance) as she goes into labor- entry during the ritual being something that Mirri expressly said was verboten.     Rhaego dies (supposedly), but she is able to hatch her dragons.   Dany even wonders after what consequences a wounded Jorah may have suffered as a result of that act.

Perhaps LC Dunk in his show of valor went against orders and carried a laboring Rhaella OUT - the baby lives, the dragons do not.   And obviously we know what consequences befell Dunk as a result of his actions...

YES! This is probably right! 

I thought Dunk burned with Aegon? Did he go back in then?

[JNR]

7 hours ago, PrettyPig said:

That story GRRM told about the guy and the castle comes to mind here.

This is such an apt reference, I think I'll paste in the story.

Quote

Prophecies are, you know, a double edge sword. You have to handle them very carefully; I mean, they can add depth and interest to a book, but you don’t want to be too literal or too easy... In the Wars of the Roses, that you mentioned, there was one Lord who had been prophesied he would die beneath the walls of a certain castle and he was superstitious at that sort of walls, so he never came anyway near that castle. He stayed thousands of leagues away from that particular castle because of the prophecy. However, he was killed in the first battle of St. Paul de Vence and when they found him dead he was outside of an inn whose sign was the picture of that castle! [Laughs] So you know? That’s the way prophecies come true in unexpected ways. The more you try to avoid them, the more you are making them true, and I make a little fun with that.

Bits like this, that reveal his outlook as a storyteller, are what make the SSMs well worth reading.

[St Daga]

On 7/21/2018 at 7:19 PM, Brad Stark said:

Do we have any hints Rhaegar was gay? Why so many theories about characters being gay, but not bi? We know Araya, Sam and some other characters are to some degree bisexual, GRRM told us.  But we get the slightest hint a man may have been interested in another man and throw out any theory he could have fathered a child outside marriage. 

I have never come across this information before. It it in an SSM? Do you have a link for this? I find it interesting if GRRM put it out there.

 

On 7/21/2018 at 9:18 PM, Frey family reunion said:

He is given a new lease on life when he is told that Rhaegar's son is still alive, and needs his help to regain the throne.  He is primarily acting out of his affection for Rhaegar as opposed to a desire to have Targaryens in general regain the throne.  

That's why I think he may need to believe Aegon is really Rhaegar's son, as opposed to being completely convinced of the fact.  This gives him purpose.

Interesting insight. This could work for JonCon's motivation.

 

12 hours ago, PrettyPig said:

If Aerys were to die or be removed from the throne, Rhaegar becomes his successor...and if Rhaegar has adopted Dornish inheritance law (“Changes will be made, I mean to call a council“), then by rights upon his death (which would most likely be unduly hastened by devious means, if I had my guess) the throne goes to Rhaenys.   Doran can also marry Arianne to Aegon and lock things up for House Martell with relation to rule of the 7 Kingdoms.  

This is most likely why Aerys rejected Rhaenys as “smelling Dornish“, went to the trouble to explicitly name Viserys as his heir, and held Elia and the children as hostages in KL during the rebellion – if Elia returned to Dorne with her children during the war, not only would he lose a much-needed army but the Martells would also crown Rhaenys and set up a Dance of Dragons 2.0 between her and Viserys.      This is mirrored in the Queenmaker plot (briefly entertained by Uncle Tyrion) involving Arianne and Myrcella, who is paired up with Trystane...she is inadvertently enacting the same plot as her father, albeit poorly. 

If this suspicion is correct, or that Tywin even thought it was a possibility, it does make some sense to why he made sure that both Rhaenys and Aegon were murdered. This idea of Rhaegar naming a daughter as heir is not something I have come across before, but the ferocity of murdering both children is odd. The male heir makes some sense, but it seems more likely the female heir should be left alive to use as a political tool, or to marry into some other household as a boon after the war is done. Maybe Tywin needed all of Rhaegar's heirs dead just in case there was a council that still wanted to put an heir of Rhaegar's on the throne at the end of the rebellion. Tywin wasn't going to take any chances when trying to get his own blood on the throne, and he made sure that no Martell blood could inherit. 

I do have some suspicion that Rhaenys might have survived, as well as Aegon. That both children that were murdered by Tywin's orders were fakes, but I don't have much in the way of proof.

 

7 hours ago, PrettyPig said:

I think the current-day equivalent of this will turn out to be Jorah carrying Dany inside Mirri’s tent (as the shadows dance) as she goes into labor- entry during the ritual being something that Mirri expressly said was verboten.     Rhaego dies (supposedly), but she is able to hatch her dragons.   Dany even wonders after what consequences a wounded Jorah may have suffered as a result of that act.

Perhaps LC Dunk in his show of valor went against orders and carried a laboring Rhaella OUT - the baby lives, the dragons do not.   And obviously we know what consequences befell Dunk as a result of his actions...

This would be a pretty nice inverse parallel. It certainly gives us two different outcomes, one with a dragon living and the other with a prince living. And the prince that lives seems to come to Dany's dreams as a dragon, as if he is trying to help her get the formula correct.

[Black Crow]

4 hours ago, JNR said:

Prophecies are, you know, a double edge sword. You have to handle them very carefully; I mean, they can add depth and interest to a book, but you don’t want to be too literal or too easy... In the Wars of the Roses, that you mentioned, there was one Lord who had been prophesied he would die beneath the walls of a certain castle and he was superstitious at that sort of walls, so he never came anyway near that castle. He stayed thousands of leagues away from that particular castle because of the prophecy. However, he was killed in the first battle of St. Paul de Vence and when they found him dead he was outside of an inn whose sign was the picture of that castle! [Laughs] So you know? That’s the way prophecies come true in unexpected ways. The more you try to avoid them, the more you are making them true, and I make a little fun with that.

Just to be slightly pedantic, Edmund Beaufort, Duke of Somerset, was actually warned to avoid castles in general. No particular one was specified, but he did indeed die in the First Battle of St. Albans [north of London], hacked to death outside the Castle Inn.

That historical correction aside, yes GRRM is indeed issuing a warning little heeded by some

[Tucu]

1 hour ago, St Daga said:

I have never come across this information before. It it in an SSM? Do you have a link for this? I find it interesting if GRRM put it out there.

The source of that turned out to be a fake interview by a spanish blogger.

Here is the original: https://lascriptasdeinvernalia.blogspot.com/2017/10/entrevista-george-rr-martin-jon-nieve.html?m=1

We discuss some of the points mentioned in the interview a few months ago.

[Chisa]

Okay, so here's a theory. 

We never get a POV from the Lannister "children", because apparently there are none with Jaime in the Kingsguard, and Tyrion childless(as we know now).  I won't count Joffrey, Myrcella and Tommen, cause they're Baratheons (or just bastards, really)

Now I'm going full crackpot, but hear me out. IMO the Lannister family dynamics is too interesting to be pointless. With missing uncle Gerion( like missing uncle Benjen), missing young Tyrek (like a missing certain young no one) . Okay,  it's a bit of a stretch I know. People go missing,  it's a war. But neither Gerion's or Benjen's disappearances were linked to the war,  or at least not the political one. While one is in lost in the mystical othersland, the other is allegedly in the land of the old magic. 

And then there is a certain joy we know of, who I think,  even if not much important has a bigger role than expected. 

And what about tower of Joy? 

I sense a little foreshadowing. 

[St Daga]

1 hour ago, Tucu said:

2 hours ago, St Daga said:

I have never come across this information before. It it in an SSM? Do you have a link for this? I find it interesting if GRRM put it out there.

The source of that turned out to be a fake interview by a spanish blogger.

Here is the original: https://lascriptasdeinvernalia.blogspot.com/2017/10/entrevista-george-rr-martin-jon-nieve.html?m=1

We discuss some of the points mentioned in the interview a few months ago.

Thanks for this information. I will have to look back in the previous threads to see if I can find the discussion that it related to.

[Melifeather]

7 hours ago, St Daga said:

I do have some suspicion that Rhaenys might have survived, as well as Aegon. That both children that were murdered by Tywin's orders were fakes, but I don't have much in the way of proof.

I believe its suggested in the text that Tywin didn't order Gregor Clegane to murder Rhaenys or Aegon, but that Gregor took it upon himself to prove he wasn't Tywin's puppet - this goes back to why he burned his brother Sandor's face.

[Brad Stark]

I thought I posted the exact quote from that interview, must have got lost.  Do we know it is fake? Everyone started saying it was real, then everyone started saying it was fake, but I haven't seen any solid evidence either way.  GRRM has a characterist style, this interview has it, and that is hard to fake. 

I also believe there was another interview where he talked about this and mentioned different degrees of bisexuality, the Kinsey scale, although he didn't use that term. 

Regardless, I wouldn't rule out a character fathering a bastard just because we have a hint he was attracted to another man. 

[Tucu]

34 minutes ago, Brad Stark said:

I thought I posted the exact quote from that interview, must have got lost.  Do we know it is fake? Everyone started saying it was real, then everyone started saying it was fake, but I haven't seen any solid evidence either way.  GRRM has a characterist style, this interview has it, and that is hard to fake. 

I also believe there was another interview where he talked about this and mentioned different degrees of bisexuality, the Kinsey scale, although he didn't use that term. 

Regardless, I wouldn't rule out a character fathering a bastard just because we have a hint he was attracted to another man. 

The spanish blogger said she had photos and recordings to prove the interview was real; the "proof" was never posted. I think it is safe to assume it was a fake.

[St Daga]

4 hours ago, Feather Crystal said:

12 hours ago, St Daga said:

I do have some suspicion that Rhaenys might have survived, as well as Aegon. That both children that were murdered by Tywin's orders were fakes, but I don't have much in the way of proof.

I believe its suggested in the text that Tywin didn't order Gregor Clegane to murder Rhaenys or Aegon, but that Gregor took it upon himself to prove he wasn't Tywin's puppet - this goes back to why he burned his brother Sandor's face.

I don't think that is correct. Tywin didn't order the death of Elia Martell, according to him, but that the Lannister's needed to "demonstration of loyalty" to Robert and that the death of Rhaegar's children was that demonstration. I just reread that chapter last night so it's fresh in my mind. Tywin states that Elia never had to die. Amory Lorch killed Rhaenys. The Mountain killed baby Aegon. Tywin states that it was all to brutal. This all comes up in conversation when Tywin has decided he will blame an already dead Amory Lorch for killed Elia and both children, this way he doesn't need to turn Gregor Clegane over to Oberyn and lose the brutal weapon he has in the Mountain.

Quote

 

"It is justice. It was Ser Amory who brought me the girl's body, if you must know. He found her hiding under her father's bed, as if she believed Rhaegar could still protect her. Princess Elia and the babe were in the nursery a floor below."

...

"Far be it from me to question your cunning, Father, but in your place I do believe I'd have let Robert Baratheon bloody his own hands."

 

Lord Tywin stared at him as if he had lost his wits. "You deserve that motley, then. We had come late to Robert's cause. It was necessary to demonstrate our loyalty. When I laid those bodies before the throne, no man could doubt that we had forsaken House Targaryen forever. And Robert's relief was palpable. As stupid as he was, even he knew that Rhaegar's children had to die if his throne was ever to be secure. Yet he saw himself as a hero, and heroes do not kill children." His father shrugged. "I grant you, it was done too brutally. Elia need not have been harmed at all, that was sheer folly. By herself she was nothing."

 

"Then why did the Mountain kill her?"

 

"Because I did not tell him to spare her. I doubt I mentioned her at all. I had more pressing concerns. Ned Stark's van was rushing south from the Trident, and I feared it might come to swords between us. And it was in Aerys to murder Jaime, with no more cause than spite. That was the thing I feared most. That, and what Jaime himself might do." He closed a fist. "Nor did I yet grasp what I had in Gregor Clegane, only that he was huge and terrible in battle. The rape . . . even you will not accuse me of giving that command, I would hope. Ser Amory was almost as bestial with Rhaenys. I asked him afterward why it had required half a hundred thrusts to kill a girl of . . . two? Three? He said she'd kicked him and would not stop screaming. If Lorch had half the wits the gods gave a turnip, he would have calmed her with a few sweet words and used a soft silk pillow." His mouth twisted in distaste. "The blood was in him."

 

But not in you, Father. There is no blood in Tywin Lannister. "Was it a soft silk pillow that slew Robb Stark?" ASOS-Tyrion VI

 

 

It is implied that Tywin ordered the deaths of Rhaenys and Aegon but that Elia was a mistake related to battle/blood lust. Tywin had no problem arranging Robb's death, and I have very little reason to doubt he ordered the death's of Rhaegar's children. He just didn't think it needed to be done so brutally.

 

I do find it ironic that Tywin claims that he didn't order Elia's rape as if that was above him, but he says this to Tyrion, who stands as witness to Tysha's rape and just how brutal Tywin can be. I am sure that Tywin had no love for Elia, who he seen as standing in his way of marrying Cersei to Rhaegar. I don't necessarily believe he wanted Elia spared, although that is his story now.

 

[Melifeather]

16 minutes ago, St Daga said:

"Nor did I yet grasp what I had in Gregor Clegane, only that he was huge and terrible in battle.

This is the part that I was remembering, but I do agree that after rereading that passage that Tywin had ordered the deaths of Rhaenys and Aegon. 

I still assert that Robert was complicit of conspiring, specifically with Cersei and Tywin, and helped with Lyanna's abduction. Every time I assert this someone says he was too dumb to be a conspirator, but Tywin's words seem to imply that they played Robert like a fiddle and thought him gullible and stupid for it. 

[St Daga]

23 minutes ago, Feather Crystal said:

46 minutes ago, St Daga said:

"Nor did I yet grasp what I had in Gregor Clegane, only that he was huge and terrible in battle.

This is the part that I was remembering, but I do agree that after rereading that passage that Tywin had ordered the deaths of Rhaenys and Aegon. 

I still assert that Robert was complicit of conspiring, specifically with Cersei and Tywin, and helped with Lyanna's abduction. Every time I assert this someone says he was too dumb to be a conspirator, but Tywin's words seem to imply that they played Robert like a fiddle and thought him gullible and stupid for it. 

Well, I don't know how dumb Robert is, but he can probably be lead to do things that he might not have dreamed up on his own. I have read some idea's on Robert being a part of Lyanna's kidnapping, and I am not sold one way or another. I do see the possibilities, but the text is written in a way that we can see many possibilities if we are open to them.

One thing about Robert that strikes me is that he is a warrior, but when it comes to politics and ruling, he does not want to do the dirty work himself. That is why he orders Dany's murder instead of trying to find her himself, or have her brought to him. So, while Robert is capable of doing a lot in the heat of battle, when the blood lust is on him, I am not sure about conspiring outside of battle. He could be a pawn, but I still don't see him as doing the dirty work. That above quote even reports how Tywin knew that Robert saw himself as a hero, and hero's don't kill children (or kidnap maidens, perhaps?).

Tywin is pretty capable of manipulating many people, not just Robert!