Heresy 210 and the Babes in the Wood

[SirArthur]

2 hours ago, Black Crow said:

, or rather Babes going on and that the rather obvious R+L=J is a red herring diverting attention away from the truth.

It all comes down to the question how much of Dany I is bait and how much is preview. like the Isle of Faces or Rhaegar dying for the woman he loved.

[Melifeather]

19 hours ago, Frey family reunion said:

The argument against this, of course, is that Cat seems to be of the opinion that Jon was born after Robb.  But I'm not sure how much we can trust Cat on this, since it is very much to her benefit that everyone believes Robb to be the older child in case there is a succession conflict between Jon and Robb, something that seems to be of great concern to her.  

Jon must have been larger than Robb as babes, because Maester Luwin tried to assuage Catelyn's misgivings by telling her that bastards grow up faster.

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  “I am almost a man grown,” Jon protested. “I will turn fifteen on my next name day, and Maester Luwin says bastards grow up faster than other children.”

  “That’s true enough,” Benjen said with a downward twist of his mouth. He took Jon’s cup from the table, filled it fresh from a nearby pitcher, and drank down a long swallow.

 

Why did those words make Benjen frown?

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  Jon was taken aback. It was true, Lord Eddard had often made Robb part of his councils back at Winterfell. Could Sam be right? Even a bastard could rise high in the Night’s Watch, they said. “I never asked for this,” he said stubbornly.

  “None of us are here for asking,” Sam reminded him.

  And suddenly Jon Snow was ashamed.

  Craven or not, Samwell Tarly had found the courage to accept his fate like a man. On the Wall, a man gets only what he earns, Benjen Stark had said the last night Jon had seen him alive. You’re no ranger, Jon, only a green boy with the smell of summer still on you. He’d heard it said that bastards grow up faster than other children; on the Wall, you grew up or you died.

 

 

19 hours ago, Frey family reunion said:

The idea that Jon may have been conceived during the time when Brandon was still alive does intrigue me quite a bit, because I'm becoming more and more convinced that the secret shame that Eddard keeps even from his wife, is that Jon was born of incest between Brandon and Lyanna.

After all, Jon does appear to be the starkiest Stark around.

I do go back and forth between Brandon and Lyanna and Mance and Lyanna as Jon's parents, because while I do believe Jon is the Bastard O'Winterfell who's father is Bael, but I also believe in the inversions. If the She-Wolves of Winterfell ever gets released, I suspect that the ailing Lord of Winterfell with no heir will end up sleeping with one of his daughters to produce an heir and then blame Bael the Bard in order to conceal the incest. 

Gilly will be raising Mance's son as her own at Sam Tarly's father's home, Horn Hill.

Wylla raised Jon at Winterfell. Assuming Wylla was just a wet nurse, then she is exactly like Gilly in that she's raising a child that isn't her own. 

Sam is claiming Mance's son as his own so that he can be raised at Horn Hill.

Ned claimed Jon as his son so that he can be raised at Winterfell.

So far the people raising Jon would seem to parallel Aemon Steelsong, so we need to consider that the baby swap would apply. Jon should have been swapped with someone, but maybe the swap never took place in the books, but rather within the reader's mind!

Gilly's real child, Monster was left at the Wall. Jon is also at the Wall, where he was stabbed and likely dying, only we expect him to survive somehow - perhaps as a type of Coldhands, who is Bran's monster.

The real baby swap took place in Kings Landing. Rhaegar's son, Aegon, was swapped by Varys. The Pisswater Prince had his head dashed upon a wall, while the real Aegon escaped. Either Rhaella or Ashara raised him while in disguise as a septa.

16 hours ago, Black Crow said:

For a start, there's that magic sword which is one of Chekhov's guns if ever there was

The reason for the sword is to doubt that Ned actually killed Arthur Dayne. It should be an impossible feat. Supposedly the sword made the one that wielded it untouchable. I still suspect that Lem Lemoncloak is one of the missing Kingsguard. The hints point to Arthur Dayne, because of his philanthropic work with the commoners and because of this magic sword business, but his physical description sounds more like Gerold Hightower.

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“The Sword of the Morning!” said Dany, delighted. “Viserys used to talk about his wondrous white blade...

 

 

 

 

[Tucu]

Any opinions on why Arthur Dayne's appears sad in both Ned and Jamie's ghost dreams?

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"I swore an oath to keep him safe," she said to Rhaegar's shade. "I swore a holy oath."

"We all swore oaths," said Ser Arthur Dayne, so sadly.

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Ser Arthur Dayne, the Sword of the Morning, had a sad smile on his lips

We also had Ned getting very sad when talking about Arthur Dayne:

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"The finest knight I ever saw was Ser Arthur Dayne, who fought with a blade called Dawn, forged from the heart of a fallen star. They called him the Sword of the Morning, and he would have killed me but for Howland Reed." Father had gotten sad then, and he would say no more. Bran wished he had asked him what he meant.

 

[Brad Stark]

8 hours ago, Black Crow said:

Something I wonder about is whether the Targaryens are intrusive and that in terms of balance we should be looking at the Starks and the Daynes as the original champions of not Ice and Fire but Winter and Summer and that its the Targaryens and their dragons who upset the balance.

Other than GRRM's obsession with the Targaryens,  this makes a lot of sense.   Dany probably has Dayne blood on her mother's side.

We do have an apparent contradiction with the Daynes.   The Targaryens' incest is to keep there blood pure and preserve their looks.  But the Daynes don't commit incest and no one else in Dorne seems to share this look.

Regarding Dawn, it could be the original Lightbringer,  as many have suggested. But it could just be a clue that the Valyrian steel technology was in Westeros earlier,  or both families came from somewhere else. 

GRRM said Dawn was similar to Valyrian steel in all ways except looks.  But it might be superior.   Gerold Dayne attributed Arthur's greatness more to the sword than his skill.  And GRRM commented on Arthur being an equal to Barristan if they fought without Dawn, but he would have won easily with it.  We don't see that level of power associated with the Valyrian steel blades.

It seems obvious someone will claim Dawn and emerge as the new Sword of the Morning, but who?  Gerold and Eddard Dayne seem most likely to me, but I'd like to see Dany, especially if she turns out to be Ashara's daughter.   I just don't see her having enough sword skills. 

[Frey family reunion]

8 hours ago, Black Crow said:

Its a good argument and a possible explanation, but one of the reasons for the Babes in the Wood subtitle is that there seems to be a lot of shuffling of the cards, or rather Babes going on and that the rather obvious R+L=J is a red herring diverting attention away from the truth. While I do go along with much of what you're saying and especially about the Kings of Winter connection, we also have Chekhov's gun to consider. Why is that milkglass sword there in the first place?

Something I wonder about is whether the Targaryens are intrusive and that in terms of balance we should be looking at the Starks and the Daynes as the original champions of not Ice and Fire but Winter and Summer and that its the Targaryens and their dragons who upset the balance.

If there is a parallel to House Stark and Winterfell in the South, I'm more inclined to look at House Gardener and Highgarden.  It appears that these may have been the two oldest lineages of First Men families in Westeros (with the possible exception of House Durrandon and Storm's End).  If so, then yes, perhaps the balance was upset when House Gardener was wiped out by the Targaryens on the Field of Fire. 

As for the sword Dawn, I'm unsure that any of these magical swords will factor much into the plot of the story.  I rather see them as symbols representing various characters in the story.  I think certain characters are metaphoric "swords" and their import is hinted at through these actual swords. 

And it appears that the character most associated with Dawn, so far has been Jaime.

[alienarea]

19 hours ago, Brad Stark said:

We have clues from GRRM something happened in Ashai 10,000 or so years ago that caused the seasons to be out of balance and dragons may have been created there as well.  Not long after,  we have the Long Night and the rise of Valyria.

Westeros is important for 2 reasons.  It stretches farther North than any other know land, and it has the Children of the forest.  We have clues the Children created the Others.

We have the Daynes,  who look like Targaryens, and are told this was how the other Dragon Lords of Valyria looked but not the common people of Valyria.  We have the sword of Chekhov's guns mentioned above, with similarities to Valyrian steel.  We have references that the Others could not stand against Dragon Steel,  even though the long Night was almost 10000 years before the Valyian conquest.

And we have our Stark family,  with their round keep that should be square, mysterious crypts and direwolf friends.

So how does it all fit together?  Or does it?  Is Asshai connected to North of the Wall?  Are the Others connected to the dragons and seasons being off balance?  Are the Starks connected to the Targaryens and the Daynes?  

Thank you for outlining and posting this. I would want to add Mance and his Targaryen-coloured cloak.

At the end of ADwD he is alive, and maybe his fake ADwD death is telling the fake death of Rhaegar who is the Elder Brother?

 

[Black Crow]

4 hours ago, Frey family reunion said:

If there is a parallel to House Stark and Winterfell in the South, I'm more inclined to look at House Gardener and Highgarden.  It appears that these may have been the two oldest lineages of First Men families in Westeros (with the possible exception of House Durrandon and Storm's End).  If so, then yes, perhaps the balance was upset when House Gardener was wiped out by the Targaryens on the Field of Fire. 

As for the sword Dawn, I'm unsure that any of these magical swords will factor much into the plot of the story.  I rather see them as symbols representing various characters in the story.  I think certain characters are metaphoric "swords" and their import is hinted at through these actual swords. 

Dawn appears to be unique. On one level its a fairly conventional and innocuous story. The knight falls in battle and his slayer returns his ancestral sword to his family. Nice touch, bit of humanity and both sides with ample literary and historical precedent. Fine.

So why complicate it by stressing the magic?

OK its not literally magic - so far as we know - but why stress the uniqueness, and the business of the Dawn, and allowing it only to be carried by the worthy. Who is worthy? Darkstar [of the Night] seemingly aint worthy, so we're in "Sword in the Stone" territory.

Who is going to draw it? - Jon, who could have a very major role in the Battle for the Dawn to come

And if only a Dayne can carry it, what does that tell us about Jon's unknown father and why one Ser Arthur Dayne of this parish is looking dsad while Jon's mother lies a-dying?

[Brad Stark]

5 hours ago, Black Crow said:

Dawn appears to be unique. On one level its a fairly conventional and innocuous story. The knight falls in battle and his slayer returns his ancestral sword to his family. Nice touch, bit of humanity and both sides with ample literary and historical precedent. Fine.

So why complicate it by stressing the magic?

OK its not literally magic - so far as we know - but why stress the uniqueness, and the business of the Dawn, and allowing it only to be carried by the worthy. Who is worthy? Darkstar [of the Night] seemingly aint worthy, so we're in "Sword in the Stone" territory.

Who is going to draw it? - Jon, who could have a very major role in the Battle for the Dawn to come

So far, we haven't seen anything to suggest the sword is literally like The Sword in the Stone.  It is carried by a worthy man by convention, not by requirement.  And the number of times we've seen Arthur associated with pissing, he may not have been so worthy. 

Which brings up a good point, why wouldn't Gerold Dayne claim it?  If he was half as bad a person as he pretends to be, he'd either think he's worthy or just not care. 

Jon is not a character I connected to the sword, just because even the most tin foiled theories don't suggest he's a Dayne.  But he does have the skill. 

[Black Crow]

Ser Arthur Dayne is a long-established possibility as Jon's father

[Frey family reunion]

20 hours ago, Brad Stark said:

Other than GRRM's obsession with the Targaryens,  this makes a lot of sense.   Dany probably has Dayne blood on her mother's side.

We do have an apparent contradiction with the Daynes.   The Targaryens' incest is to keep there blood pure and preserve their looks.  But the Daynes don't commit incest and no one else in Dorne seems to share this look.

Regarding Dawn, it could be the original Lightbringer,  as many have suggested. But it could just be a clue that the Valyrian steel technology was in Westeros earlier,  or both families came from somewhere else. 

GRRM said Dawn was similar to Valyrian steel in all ways except looks.  But it might be superior.   Gerold Dayne attributed Arthur's greatness more to the sword than his skill.  And GRRM commented on Arthur being an equal to Barristan if they fought without Dawn, but he would have won easily with it.  We don't see that level of power associated with the Valyrian steel blades.

It seems obvious someone will claim Dawn and emerge as the new Sword of the Morning, but who?  Gerold and Eddard Dayne seem most likely to me, but I'd like to see Dany, especially if she turns out to be Ashara's daughter.   I just don't see her having enough sword skills. 

But are we sure that the two examples we have of purple eyes with House Dayne, really a historical trait of House Dayne?  I think it is much more likely, that Targaryens have married into House Dayne, resulting in Ashara’s eye color, and Gerold’s silver hair, and violet eyes.  The fact that Maekar Targaryen married a Dayne, makes me believe that the House Dayne may have already had a Targaryen bloodline in its ancestry.  And then we are not told what family Aegon’s V’s sisters’ married into.  It seems likely that at least one of them may have been married back into their mother’s family as marriages to first cousins seems fairly common.

[Frey family reunion]

9 hours ago, Brad Stark said:

So far, we haven't seen anything to suggest the sword is literally like The Sword in the Stone.  It is carried by a worthy man by convention, not by requirement.  And the number of times we've seen Arthur associated with pissing, he may not have been so worthy. 

Which brings up a good point, why wouldn't Gerold Dayne claim it?  If he was half as bad a person as he pretends to be, he'd either think he's worthy or just not care. 

Jon is not a character I connected to the sword, just because even the most tin foiled theories don't suggest he's a Dayne.  But he does have the skill. 

I think  that the whoever is currently in charge of House Dayne has possession of the sword and either recognizes Gerold Dayne for the miscreant he is, or is waiting for Edric Dayne to return and come of age so he can “earn” the title and the sword.

ETA: And to be fair to Edric, his time with Beric and the Brotherhood may have already earned him his right to both title and sword.

[SirArthur]

1 hour ago, Frey family reunion said:

But are we sure that the two examples we have of purple eyes with House Dayne, really a historical trait of House Dayne?  I think it is much more likely, that Targaryens have married into House Dayne, resulting in Ashara’s eye color, and Gerold’s silver hair, and violet eyes.  The fact that Maekar Targaryen married a Dayne, makes me believe that the House Dayne may have already had a Targaryen bloodline in its ancestry.  And then we are not told what family Aegon’s V’s sisters’ married into.  It seems likely that at least one of them may have been married back into their mother’s family as marriages to first cousins seems fairly common.

known houses with Targaryen traits: Velaryon, Hightower, Dayne, Celtigar (?)  

known houses a Targaryen princess married into: Velaryon, Martell, Hightower, Penrose, Plumm, Baratheon

Martell, Hightower, Penrose, Plumm shouldn't have Targ bloodline when they married a princess. 

 

However, I find it far more likely that Dayne intermarried with Essos and got their look from there. Especially Tyros and Lys are good guesses for certain trait sources in southern houses. 

[Brad Stark]

1 hour ago, Frey family reunion said:

But are we sure that the two examples we have of purple eyes with House Dayne, really a historical trait of House Dayne?  I think it is much more likely, that Targaryens have married into House Dayne, resulting in Ashara’s eye color, and Gerold’s silver hair, and violet eyes.  The fact that Maekar Targaryen married a Dayne, makes me believe that the House Dayne may have already had a Targaryen bloodline in its ancestry.  And then we are not told what family Aegon’s V’s sisters’ married into.  It seems likely that at least one of them may have been married back into their mother’s family as marriages to first cousins seems fairly common.

A reasonable thought from the text, but GRRM has been clear in interviews that house Dayne has no Targaryen blood. 

[Brad Stark]

My theory has been that Dayne, Targaryen and Stark families all came from elsewhere, probably Asshai.  The Targaryens preserved their looks by incest, the Daynes somewhat incidentally, and the Starks look very different from intermarrying heavily with the First Men. 

Suppose Starks and Targaryens fought each other long ago, which is what threw off the seasons. Starks are ice and Targaryens are fire.  This gives relevance to J=R+L as Jon would be decended from both bloodlines and the person to set everything right, it isn't just his backstory and otherwise irrelevant to the plot. 

[Frey family reunion]

21 minutes ago, Brad Stark said:

A reasonable thought from the text, but GRRM has been clear in interviews that house Dayne has no Targaryen blood. 

Do you have a cite on that?  Because I can't recall GRRM ever making a comment on that.  Or being that unequivocal on almost any subject.

[Frey family reunion]

1 hour ago, SirArthur said:

known houses with Targaryen traits: Velaryon, Hightower, Dayne, Celtigar (?)  

known houses a Targaryen princess married into: Velaryon, Martell, Hightower, Penrose, Plumm, Baratheon

Martell, Hightower, Penrose, Plumm shouldn't have Targ bloodline when they married a princess. 

 

However, I find it far more likely that Dayne intermarried with Essos and got their look from there. Especially Tyros and Lys are good guesses for certain trait sources in southern houses. 

Yet, even the Targaryen family tree in the World Book has four notable princesses where we are given no information as to what family they were later married into.

[Frey family reunion]

14 minutes ago, Brad Stark said:

My theory has been that Dayne, Targaryen and Stark families all came from elsewhere, probably Asshai.  The Targaryens preserved their looks by incest, the Daynes somewhat incidentally, and the Starks look very different from intermarrying heavily with the First Men. 

Suppose Starks and Targaryens fought each other long ago, which is what threw off the seasons. Starks are ice and Targaryens are fire.  This gives relevance to J=R+L as Jon would be decended from both bloodlines and the person to set everything right, it isn't just his backstory and otherwise irrelevant to the plot. 

That's certainly one possibility.  However another possibility is that we're following two characters who's bloodlines are a return to the extremes of Fire and Ice.  Dany if her bloodline does harken back to the bloodlines of Aegon and the Conquerors, and Jon if his bloodlines are a return to the bloodlines of the Kings of Winter.

[SirArthur]

26 minutes ago, Frey family reunion said:

Yet, even the Targaryen family tree in the World Book has four notable princesses where we are given no information as to what family they were later married into.

I do not really think that matters. Some minor family with the traits could have also married into Dayne. That was my point about Essos. In Westerosy terms that could be a Velaryon, a Celtigar, even a Martell before they lost the trait. 

[Melifeather]

11 hours ago, Brad Stark said:

And the number of times we've seen Arthur associated with pissing, he may not have been so worthy. 

Just curious - where did you read that Arthur was associated with pissing? In the past I have used "pissing" as supporting evidence that Lem Lemoncloak was a Kingsguard in disguise with "piss" symbolizing how the white cloak was now soiled. I speculated that Arthur wasn't the shining knight that everyone believed him to be, but Jaime has also hinted that Gerold Hightower wasn't very honorable either since he was so willing to carry out the king's orders no matter if those orders had honor in them or not.

 

In the Queenmaker chapter its Gerold Dayne (Darkstar) that is doing the pissing, but he seems to be a combination of Gerold Hightower and Arthur Dayne.

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“Princess.” Ser Gerold Dayne stood behind her, half in starlight and half in shadow. 

  “How was your piss?” Arianne inquired archly.

  “The sands were duly grateful.” Dayne put a foot upon the head of a statue that might have been the Maiden till the sands had scoured her face away. “It occurred to me as I was pissing that this plan of yours may not yield you what you want.”

 

 

I think all of you here know by now my belief that the titled chapters are parallel inversion chapters, and in The Queenmaker I had pointed to Gerold Dayne (Darkstar) as being a combination of Gerold Hightower and Arthur Dayne. Along with the "pissing" symbolism I had also pointed out the references to lemon water, and connected both to Lem Lemoncloak. If you know of any "pissing" passages that directly link to Arthur Dayne I'd be very interested!

I have a few lemon connections to Arianne's plan to crown Myrcella. The first is a direct connection to Gerold Dayne (Darkstar).

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Once the kindling caught, they sat around the flames and passed a skin of summerwine from hand to hand . . . all but Darkstar, who preferred to drink unsweetened lemonwater.

 

This next one represents Arianne's hopes that by crowning Myrcella she would rally Dorne to her cause to inherit the realm from her father. The promise of success is symbolized by a lemon orchard.

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 <snip> ... “We’re almost there, Your Grace,” Garin told Myrcella cheerfully when they spied more sandbeggars up ahead, a thicket of them growing all around the dry bed of a stream. The sun was beating down like a fiery hammer, but it did not matter with their journey at its end. They stopped to water the horses again, drank deep from their skins and wet their veils, then mounted for the last push. Within half a league they were riding over devilgrass and past olive groves. Beyond a line of stony hills the grass grew greener and more lush, and there were lemon orchards watered by a spider’s web of old canals. Garin was the first to spy the river glimmering green. He gave a shout and raced ahead.

The promise of success suggested by the lemon orchard didn't materialize however. She should have recognized that lemons are by nature tart and bitter, because shortly afterward they are surprised by Areo Hotah.

 

This last passage is part of the account of when Doran is arriving to Sunspear after leaving the Water Gardens. The people of Dorne are very angry that Doran doesn't seem to be doing anything, while they crave revenge for the death of the Viper at the hands of Ser Gregor Clegane. In this passage lemons (and other citrus fruit) are linked to war.

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<snip> ...

  One ragged boy darted past the spearmen with a half-rotten pomegranate in one hand, but when he saw Areo Hotah in his path, with longaxe at the ready, he let the fruit fall unthrown and beat a quick retreat. Others farther back let fly with lemons, limes, and oranges, crying “War! War! To the spears!” One of the guards was hit in the eye with a lemon, and the captain himself had an orange splatter off his foot.

 

 

 

 

[Melifeather]

48 minutes ago, Brad Stark said:

My theory has been that Dayne, Targaryen and Stark families all came from elsewhere, probably Asshai.  The Targaryens preserved their looks by incest, the Daynes somewhat incidentally, and the Starks look very different from intermarrying heavily with the First Men. 

Suppose Starks and Targaryens fought each other long ago, which is what threw off the seasons. Starks are ice and Targaryens are fire.  This gives relevance to J=R+L as Jon would be decended from both bloodlines and the person to set everything right, it isn't just his backstory and otherwise irrelevant to the plot. 

This has always been a stumbling block for me. If Jon is Rhaegar's and Lyanna's son and Daenerys is Aerys and Rhaella's, then he's mostly from the fire side, correct? Not enough ice in him for the books to be a story of ice and fire.

30 minutes ago, Frey family reunion said:

That's certainly one possibility.  However another possibility is that we're following two characters who's bloodlines are a return to the extremes of Fire and Ice.  Dany if her bloodline does harken back to the bloodlines of Aegon and the Conquerors, and Jon if his bloodlines are a return to the bloodlines of the Kings of Winter.