Heresy 210 and the Babes in the Wood

[St Daga]

14 hours ago, Frey family reunion said:

I am a bit suspicious that the purpose of GRRM creating Duskendale may have been to allow a secret pregnancy to have occurred on Dragon Isle.  You get a half a year with the king indisposed and all the attention being diverted towards that city, and a protective kingsguard and castle staff on Dragonstone.  If that's the case, then Aurane could be a candidate for being Rhaella's bastard instead of Aerys.  It is a bit odd, that the text is so specific as to Aurane's age.  

The other possibility of a Targaryen bastard is Darkstar.  He certainly seems to have Aerys' winning personality at least.

If Rhaegar is Rhaella's child and not Aerys, AND if Aurane is a Targaryen bastard, then the seeming resemblance between Rhaegar and Aurane does seem to hint that perhaps Aurane does belong to Rhaella. At what point did Aerys start to keep Rhaella under lock and key and guard? Perhaps it is after this? Also trusting Cersei in this matter is important, and it makes me nervous to trust her instincts. I sometimes wonder if she missremembers Rhaegar and after all these years that any silver haired man might "look enough" like Rhaegar to fit the bill for her. In that case, I do wonder if Aurane hasn't been planted to distract her and cause a little havoc, which it certainly seems he does. I am not opposed to Aurane being a Targaryen bastard by any means, but there is something special in the Velaryon blood that he might be more important to the story as a Velaryon bastard, a house tied to the sea as much as they are tied to dragons. However, the Velaryon ties might be a well placed cover to hide a Targaryen bastard. 

 

14 hours ago, Frey family reunion said:

We have Cersei seeing Rhaegar in Aurane, and Mormont seeing his estranged wife in Dany's hair, and Barristan seeing Ashara in Dany's eyes.  These could be clues or these could be these characters projecting something they wanted but could never attain (as in Cersei and Barristan) or projecting something they lost, like with Mormont.

I do think this is very possible. Especially with Cersei/Aurane and Jorah/Daenerys, but Ashara I am still suspicious of, although I trust Barristan as a narrator no more than the others.

I have used Barristan's thoughts on Dany and Ashara for years to tie them together as mother/daughter, but Barristan could be incorrect. Still, Barristan knew both Aerys and Rhaella and he seems to see no physical resemblance in Dany to either of the people she thinks are her parents. He also never thinks of her as looking like Rhaegar, either. Dany is beautiful and her eyes remind him of Ashara, but otherwise, Dany seems to show no obvious resemblance to any parent. Now, it could be that both women have violet eyes, and that is all the similarity that they have, but in GRRM's world, sharing the eye color of one parent or another seems important. I am still leaning toward Dany being Ashara's daughter, but I am not sold entirely! 

 

7 hours ago, Black Crow said:

After, Gerold Hightower himself took me aside and said to me, 'You swore a vow to guard the king, not to judge him.' That was the White Bull, loyal to the end and a better man than me, all agree.

Reading this passage again, its obvious that that if Gerold Hightower was obeying orders that took him/kept him away from the throne they could only have been given by Aerys - not Rhaegar

When isolating the text in this way, it does really lean toward Hightower taking his orders (to the bitter end) from Aerys. Which really put's a crunch on many theories that connect those three kingsguard from Ned's fever dream to conspiring with Rhaegar. So, were the kingsguard even together at all, or did Ned actually find them in the places his dream says he did not find them. The Trident, Kings Landing, Dragonstone and Storms End are the places that Eddard mentions looking for them. Were they actually scattered about, each at one of these places? Not at the Trident probably, since many people would have been witness, but how about the other locations? And were one or all of them guarding Viserys? It was Viserys who was named heir to Aerys, or so we are told.

Could the kingsguard have been placed in different locations to draw searchers to them, while Aerys actual heir was smuggled to safety? Even if the goal was to hatch or wake a dragon after the Trident, at what point does it not matter. Rhaegar is dead. Aerys can only hope to hold the city IF Tywin helps him, and even then what good will a baby dragon do him? After all, as we see with Dany's young dragons, they are pretty much helpless and could easily be killed. And if all the Targaryen's have fallen, who exactly would be in control of this dragon when it was born/hatched/waken? Rhaella, I suppose, or Viserys?

 

2 hours ago, JNR said:

One way or another, at some point, we know Hightower winds up with Dayne and Whent (though not necessarily Rhaegar).

Are these three ever placed together outside of Ned's fever dream?

 

[PrettyPig]

Quote

"As for Lord Rickard, the steel of his breastplate turned cherry-red before the end, and his gold melted off his spurs and dripped down into the fire. I stood at the foot of the Iron Throne in my white armor and white cloak, filling my head with thoughts of Cersei. After, Gerold Hightower himself took me aside and said to me, 'You swore a vow to guard the king, not to judge him.' That was the White Bull, loyal to the end and a better man than me, all agree."

Gerold Hightower tells Jaime this immediately after Aerys has burned Rickard Stark to death for jollies.   Lately I have been reinterpreting the underlined to be something of a courtesy heads-up that the Targaryens he serves (Aerys and Rhaegar both) were rather fond of this distasteful practice and Jaime just needs to get over his morals already, because it happens more often than anyone realizes.     Not with high lords, obviously, but in general.    

Jaime has only been a KG for what, 6 months or so? at this point, and his first exposure to Aerys' more questionable hobbies (the dark secrets to which Barristan refers) clearly left him reeling, so Hightower  - who would have been swallowing his disgust for over 20 years by now - felt the need to tell Jaime to suck it up because it's all downhill from here.  

IF Hightower were accustomed to the Targaryen people-ques AND in some way this family tradition was going to be continued at the TOJ, we could reconcile the whole Aerys orders vs. Rhaegar orders dilemma....because they are the same orders.

Theorizing only, of course.

 

[Frey family reunion]

On 7/27/2018 at 4:30 PM, PrettyPig said:

That was me, as part of my Extreme Tinfoil  “Wherever Whores Go” Research Series.  Lol

But yeah, I am certain that Dany’s early years were spent in a brothel (there is tons of subtle support for it), and I’ll even go one further — if she is the daughter of Ashara Dayne by Rhaegar, I think she may have ended up in this position because her mother fled to Essos.

Your theory was one of the few I've run across recently, that made me stop and completely rethink some of my assumptions.  And even though I think we may be going in slightly different directions with it, I'm curious to hear your full Ashara theory.  

My instinct with George is that he wants to upend common fantasy tropes, and in this series, I think he's doing it through a type of magical genetics.  Even though it's been a very long time since I read any Wildcard books, I heard a recap of one on Youtube the other day, where George bends over backwards creating rules for a type of superheroe gene, he called the Wildcard gene.

For Jon, I think he's leading us down the primrose path through suggestions that there was a Rhaegar-Lyanna love story in the vein of Romeo and Juliet, whereby Jon is the hidden king a la Arthur.  Instead I think it’s a misdirect, and that Jon is a hidden king but of the Winter King variety, who comes about because of an act of incest with two Starks both of whom were carrying this magical bloodline as a recessive trait.

Dany on the other hand is presented to us, as a Targaryen princess and ultimately the last of her royal line.  Yet we ignore the fact that this royal line of Targaryens lost their ability to hatch and ride dragons almost two hundred years ago.  Instead we're given subtle clues that her childhood memories don't line up with the official back story.  So I wonder if we're going to find out that instead of being royalty, Dany is the end result of genetic manipulations specifically tailored in an effort to bring dragons back into Westeros and to control them.  

Now there could be two ways to genetically manipulate bloodlines, to try and bring back the "pure" bloodlines of the dragon riders of old.  One would be to try and control royal marriages between noble houses that you suspect may carry the necessary bloodlines.  The other way, would be to do the same thing through the brothels.  Seduce the lords with the necessary bloodlines with "low born" women who may be descended from the bastard children of prior dragon lords.  Then raise their daughters in the brothel to repeat this process, until the necessary bloodline is reunited.

 If this is true, then my guess is that Dany's grandmother may have originally conceived a child with Aerys back in his hedonistic days, before the birth of Viserys and Duskendale.  Then that girl is raised and when old enough, she is brought back into the Red Keep and perhaps through magical means, such as a glamor, she tricks Aerys into believing she is Rhaella.  Then the next morning, as per Jaime, she leaves in a hooded cloak via carriage, as opposed to a midnight sail to Dragonstone, as per Viserys.

Dany is then born in a brothel, which she remembers as the House with the Red door, and a few years later she is brought to Dorne, where she has her memories of the Lemon tree, before being taken to Braavos as a suitable stand in for Viserys' noble born sister.  So Dany is not from a royal line, but instead from a maternal line of women, who have been specifically "bred" to bring together the bloodline of Aegon and his sisters.

[Frey family reunion]

6 hours ago, St Daga said:

At what point did Aerys start to keep Rhaella under lock and key and guard? Perhaps it is after this?

I think it was around 270 after a bunch of her miscarriages and stillbirths that he started to suspect.  His suspicion is that she was miscarrying the children because they were bastards.  Ironically, I think that her miscarriages, stillbirths, and children who died young may have been her only children conceived with Aerys.  While her two sons who survived, Rhaegar and Viserys, may be with different men.  Even though Aurane was born around the time that Aerys was trying to keep a closer eye on her, Duskendale may account for all the attention being diverted away from Rhaella, allowing her to resume a relationship, and perhaps give birth to one more child.  

There are a number of sly references in AGOT that makes me think Viserys' father may be a Velaryon.  But there is a passage that makes me doubt that Rhaegar is a secret bastard of Lord Velaryon.  It seems that there was a Velaryon who was Aerys' master of ships.  When everyone was dividing themselves in camps of Aerys vs. Rhaegar, he was on team Aerys.  If Rhaegar was secretly a Velaryon, I think he would have supported Rhaegar.  It makes me wonder, if the Velaryon's support of Aerys had more to do with trying to shift Aerys to making Viserys his heir.

So if Rhaegar isn't half Velaryon, but he isn't the true born son of Aerys and Rhaella, then my guess is back in the time right before Summerhall, we're going to find that Rhaella may have had a liason with someone else who may fit the bill as Rhaegar's father.  Perhaps it's Bonifer Hasty, but my guess is that we're going to find out that it's one of her kingsguards.  And my money is either on Gerold Hightower, if he wasn't too old, or Arthur Dayne if he wasn't too young.  I think we've been given a number of hints that both houses may have Targaryen bloodlines within them.

[JNR]

7 hours ago, St Daga said:

Are these three ever placed together outside of Ned's fever dream?

Here's Ned's post-dream memory in a conscious state:

Quote

It would have to be his grandfather, for Jory's father was buried far to the south. Martyn Cassel had perished with the rest. Ned had pulled the tower down afterward, and used its bloody stones to build eight cairns upon the ridge. It was said that Rhaegar had named that place the tower of joy, but for Ned it was a bitter memory. They had been seven against three, yet only two had lived to ride away; Eddard Stark himself and the little crannogman, Howland Reed.

The names and numbers from this memory parallel the dream's names and numbers precisely, so I think it's certain the three KG were really there.  

Which means we know there came a point when Hightower, Whent, and Dayne did all intersect (though it might have happened after the war).

Lyanna is a little more awkward, of course, since she turns up just when the dream gets extremely surreal, with a bloody sky and a rose storm, and Ned's waking memory leaves her notably unmentioned.

This passage is also a good illustration of how the wiki is full of problems.  The wiki states with supreme confidence that:

Quote

The structure was named the tower of joy by Prince Rhaegar Targaryen

But what the passage actually says above is that "it was said" Rhaegar had named that place the TOJ. 

The careful reader will wonder who said that, when, and whether it was said by an informed authority, or was (for instance) just a post-war rumor, like others we've heard of.

[JNR]

6 hours ago, PrettyPig said:

Lately I have been reinterpreting the underlined to be something of a courtesy heads-up that the Targaryens he serves (Aerys and Rhaegar both) were rather fond of this distasteful practice and Jaime just needs to get over his morals already, because it happens more often than anyone realizes.

Yeah, I think it was well understood Targs, certainly including Aerys, were often fire-happy megalomaniacs.  

Quote

King Jaehaerys once told me that madness and greatness are two sides of the same coin. Every time a new Targaryen is born, he said, the gods toss the coin in the air and the world holds its breath to see how it will land.

The KG were expected to be loyal to the Targs, and the king in particular, no matter how the coin landed.

The TOJ doesn't strike me as a likely instance of Targ madness, though.

[Melifeather]

5 hours ago, JNR said:

Here's Ned's post-dream memory in a conscious state:

The names and numbers from this memory parallel the dream's names and numbers precisely, so I think it's certain the three KG were really there.  

Which means we know there came a point when Hightower, Whent, and Dayne did all intersect (though it might have happened after the war).

Lyanna is a little more awkward, of course, since she turns up just when the dream gets extremely surreal, with a bloody sky and a rose storm, and Ned's waking memory leaves her notably unmentioned.

This passage is also a good illustration of how the wiki is full of problems.  The wiki states with supreme confidence that:

But what the passage actually says above is that "it was said" Rhaegar had named that place the TOJ. 

The careful reader will wonder who said that, when, and whether it was said by an informed authority, or was (for instance) just a post-war rumor, like others we've heard of.

There’s nothing in Ned’s waking memory placing the three Kingsguard anywhere. The passage you’ve included only says they were seven against three. The “three” could have been anyone.

[St Daga]

8 hours ago, Frey family reunion said:

So if Rhaegar isn't half Velaryon, but he isn't the true born son of Aerys and Rhaella, then my guess is back in the time right before Summerhall, we're going to find that Rhaella may have had a liason with someone else who may fit the bill as Rhaegar's father.  Perhaps it's Bonifer Hasty, but my guess is that we're going to find out that it's one of her kingsguards.  And my money is either on Gerold Hightower, if he wasn't too old, or Arthur Dayne if he wasn't too young.  I think we've been given a number of hints that both houses may have Targaryen bloodlines within them.

Too old isn't really a problem, so I could see Hightower fitting the bill for this. But Dayne is another question all together. There is really no reason to know how old he is. I have discussed this with people over the years who think SAD must be around Rhaegar's age, or even just a few years older, but the text gives us nothing.  It doesn't give us much on Ashara's age either.  I have been shot down for thinking SAD was much older than Rhaegar. We are at least told that Ashara was a maid new to court, which hints at some level of youth, although she could still be older than Lyanna.

I can only assume that this lack of information is related to some subterfuge on GRRM's part. But Arthur and Ashara could be far apart in age, or even twins. It would be interesting if Rhaegar carried SAD's blood AND if he then had a child with Ashara, which would make Ashara his aunt. It would certainly bring some Dayne blood into the mix, especially if Rhaegar and Ashara are Dany's parents.

But I do find myself intrigued by the idea of Hightower. Again, if Rhaegar has Hightower blood and is Dany's father, then Dany's resemblance to Lynnesse Hightower makes a bit more sense. Although, I am not sure I trust Jorah on this resemblance. But Hightower would have had access to Rhaella as a princess and as a queen. Perhaps Aerys suspected but had no proof and that is why he forced bedmates on Rhaella, so there was no chance of her sneaking a lover into bed. But if Aerys suspected Hightower, I find it hard to imagine that Aerys would not have had Hightower executed based on the suspicion alone.

 

8 hours ago, JNR said:

15 hours ago, St Daga said:

Are these three ever placed together outside of Ned's fever dream?

Here's Ned's post-dream memory in a conscious state:

Quote

It would have to be his grandfather, for Jory's father was buried far to the south. Martyn Cassel had perished with the rest. Ned had pulled the tower down afterward, and used its bloody stones to build eight cairns upon the ridge. It was said that Rhaegar had named that place the tower of joy, but for Ned it was a bitter memory. They had been seven against three, yet only two had lived to ride away; Eddard Stark himself and the little crannogman, Howland Reed.

The names and numbers from this memory parallel the dream's names and numbers precisely, so I think it's certain the three KG were really there.  

Which means we know there came a point when Hightower, Whent, and Dayne did all intersect (though it might have happened after the war).

I agree the numbers make sense, but I am still not sure about this being a conscious report on Ned's part of the three kingsguard together. It actually says nothing about any kingsguard, let alone three. However, Ned gives us very little, and only what GRRM wants us to have. But why be so vague about this, of all things? The only other place that all three are mentioned in Ned's POV is in another dream/memory, while Ned was flushed with fever in the black cells.  Howland Reed and Martyn Cassel are the only people mentioned from the toj fever dream that are actually mentioned in a concise memory, and not in a dream sequence. 

Oh, and Lyanna, of course!

 

8 hours ago, JNR said:

This passage is also a good illustration of how the wiki is full of problems.  The wiki states with supreme confidence that:

Quote

The structure was named the tower of joy by Prince Rhaegar Targaryen

But what the passage actually says above is that "it was said" Rhaegar had named that place the TOJ. 

The careful reader will wonder who said that, when, and whether it was said by an informed authority, or was (for instance) just a post-war rumor, like others we've heard of.

I agree that the wording and the leading in the wiki is sometimes atrocious! I am sometimes shocked that stuff is allowed to remain as it is currently stated. So misleading...

 

8 hours ago, JNR said:

15 hours ago, PrettyPig said:

Lately I have been reinterpreting the underlined to be something of a courtesy heads-up that the Targaryens he serves (Aerys and Rhaegar both) were rather fond of this distasteful practice and Jaime just needs to get over his morals already, because it happens more often than anyone realizes.

Yeah, I think it was well understood Targs, certainly including Aerys, were often fire-happy megalomaniacs.  

Well, we see that Dany has no problem giving MMD to the flames, or Kraznys mo Nakloz.

 

 

[Tucu]

3 hours ago, Feather Crystal said:

There’s nothing in Ned’s waking memory placing the three Kingsguard anywhere. The passage you’ve included only says they were seven against three. The “three” could have been anyone.

We don't have a confirmation from Ned, but we have rumours that he killed AD and that there were other KGs present at the time. Not necessarily at the ToJ.

These are the rumours Cat heard:

Quote

They whispered of Ser Arthur Dayne, the Sword of the Morning, deadliest of the seven knights of Aerys's Kingsguard, and of how their young lord had slain him in single combat. And they told how afterward Ned had carried Ser Arthur's sword back to the beautiful young sister who awaited him in a castle called Starfall on the shores of the Summer Sea.

This is from Cersei:

Quote

Or was it the grieving sister, the Lady Ashara? She threw herself into the sea, I'm told. Why was that? For the brother you slew, or the child you stole?

And this is from Yandel (the official version after the war):

Quote

Most famous of all was Ser Arthur Dayne, the deadliest of King Aerys II's Kingsguard, who defeated the Kingswood Brotherhood and won renown in every tourney and mêlée. He died nobly with his sworn brothers at the end of Robert's Rebellion, after Lord Eddard Stark was said to have killed him in single combat. Lord Stark then returned Dawn to Starfall, and to Ser Arthur's kin, as a sign of respect.

 

[alienarea]

I don't see Ned going on a killing spree for the kingsguard. His decisions in GoT are too stupid.

[Frey family reunion]

5 hours ago, St Daga said:

But I do find myself intrigued by the idea of Hightower. Again, if Rhaegar has Hightower blood and is Dany's father, then Dany's resemblance to Lynnesse Hightower makes a bit more sense. Although, I am not sure I trust Jorah on this resemblance. But Hightower would have had access to Rhaella as a princess and as a queen. Perhaps Aerys suspected but had no proof and that is why he forced bedmates on Rhaella, so there was no chance of her sneaking a lover into bed. But if Aerys suspected Hightower, I find it hard to imagine that Aerys would not have had Hightower executed based on the suspicion alone.

This is kind of where I'm leaning as well.  It might also explain Hightower's presence at the toj along with Rhaegar's primary two kingsguard conspirators Arthur, and Oswell.  

Yes we have Jorah's observation, even though according to Cat she was simply blonde as opposed to silvery gold like Dany, but according to GRRM the best clue as to Targaryen relationship lies in their names.  And Lord Leyton Hightower's first born son is named Baelor and he also has a daughter, Alysanne.  

But the Hightower girl that i think gives us a bigger clue is Alerie Hightower, the wife of Mace Tyrell.  

Quote

Sansa recognized only Lord Tyrell's tall, dignified wife, Lady Alerie, whose long silvery braid was bound with jeweled rings.

Quote

Her mother Lady Alerie, silver-haired and handsome, still proud beside Mace Tyrell.

Blondes are one things, but I think silver hair is a better indicator of Targaryen genes.

And then we have the very Targaryen looking Gerold Dayne.  Assuming Gerold is a Dayne and not a hidden Targaryen bastard, I am suspicious that his first name may indicated that he has a Hightower relative, perhaps a grandparent.

Going way back, to the days of the Dance of Dragons, Viserys' second wife was a Hightower, and I think almost all of her children were dragon riders, which makes me suspicious that there was a Targaryen bloodline on the Hightower side in addition to the Targaryen side. (my guess is it came from Aenys' granddaughter, Rhaella Targaryen, who was taken in by House Hightower when Maegor and Jaehaerys were clashing)  

And of course we still don't know which houses Aegon V's two sisters married into, which could be the most immediate source of Targaryen lineage for the Hightowers.

ETA: and I do wonder how much George is planning on milking the White Bull symbology from mythology. If a child or children were stolen and brought to the tower of joy, George may be using the White Bull symbology as a nod to Europa being kidnapped by a White Bull, and if Rhaella had a secret affair with Gerold right before Summerhall, it could be a nod to the tale of Pasiphae's affair with a white bull, which gave the birth to the child sacrificing minotaur.

[Brad Stark]

Do we know Lynnesse Hightower and Dany look alike from anyone other than Mormont?  Maybe they are both just his type. 

[St Daga]

1 hour ago, Frey family reunion said:

Blondes are one things, but I think silver hair is a better indicator of Targaryen genes.

And then we have the very Targaryen looking Gerold Dayne.  Assuming Gerold is a Dayne and not a hidden Targaryen bastard, I am suspicious that his first name may indicated that he has a Hightower relative, perhaps a grandparent.

Darkstar does have hint's of dragonblood about him. His beauty, his temper, his eye and hair. I could go either way on his parentage. Arianne certainly thinks there is something magnetic about him; even though she is alarmed by him, she is attracted to him. And we have that hint of the purple eyes, but we have that with Edric Dayne as well. So, it's hard to say if that purple eye trait comes from Targaryen blood, Dayne blood, or blood from several of the free cities.

 

1 hour ago, Frey family reunion said:

Going way back, to the days of the Dance of Dragons, Viserys' second wife was a Hightower, and I think almost all of her children were dragon riders, which makes me suspicious that there was a Targaryen bloodline on the Hightower side in addition to the Targaryen side. (my guess is it came from Aenys' granddaughter, Rhaella Targaryen, who was taken in by House Hightower when Maegor and Jaehaerys were clashing)  

And of course we still don't know which houses Aegon V's two sisters married into, which could be the most immediate source of Targaryen lineage for the Hightowers.

Yes, one of Rhaena's twins. I agree that both those girls are quite tempting to imagine bred into an important house in Westeros. House Hightower is a great fit for her, as we know she was in Old Town and was protected by Lord Hightower when Maegor demanded that she die. And you are correct when you point out that all four of Alicent Hightower's children by King Viserys were dragonriders. There is certainly some genetic component that worked for them, although I question that the Hightowers might have been dragon people from millenia ago, and just needed a little boost to their current genes. They could have received this from Rhaella.

I personally think that Rhaella's twin, Aerea probably ended up with House Stark, although I know this isn't a very popular idea. Her name is far to similar to Arya for me to ignore, and there is missing lineage for the Stark's that would fit this time line. Also, we then have Jaehaerys and Alysanne, who would be an aunt and uncle to these twins, suddenly taking a greater interest in the north than it seems like Targaryen's did in the past.

Alerie's silver hair is pointed out several times in the text, and I certainly agree we are meant to pay attention to it.  And Alerie mimic's Alicent in having three sons and a daughter. Willis is wounded/scared as a young man, as is Alicent's son Aemond. If these little similarities continue, things don't bode well for Margaery Tyrell. It has always stood out to me that Margaery is spelled with the ae, when it certainly doesn't need to be. Very Targaryen or at least Valyrian sounding.

 

24 minutes ago, Brad Stark said:

Do we know Lynnesse Hightower and Dany look alike from anyone other than Mormont?  Maybe they are both just his type. 

I do think we only have this from Jorah, and he is not very trustworthy. He was obviously in love/lust for Lynesse as he is for Dany. I think the only descriptor we have for Lynesse is from Dacey Mormont who says she had hair like spun gold and skin like cream. I am torn between thinking this is a clue about Dany and thinking Jorah is unreliable in the case of this description.

[JNR]

10 hours ago, Feather Crystal said:

There’s nothing in Ned’s waking memory placing the three Kingsguard anywhere.

Well, let's look at his memory:

Quote

Ned had pulled the tower down afterward, and used its bloody stones to build eight cairns upon the ridge. It was said that Rhaegar had named that place the tower of joy, but for Ned it was a bitter memory.

This is, in context, almost certainly a reference to the tower in the dream:

Quote

He dreamt an old dream, of three knights in white cloaks, and a tower long fallen... They waited before the round tower, the red mountains of Dorne at their backs

The premise that Ned has a dream about a fallen tower in Dorne where there was a battle of seven on three... and then immediately on waking thinks about some completely different tower he himself pulled down to build cairns for corpses in real life... doesn't seem very strong.  I think it was the same tower.

However, I'm just going to note again that Ned never, on waking, thinks about building Lyanna a cairn.

So if per R+L=J, Lyanna was at the TOJ and died there, then Ned either

• Tied her corpse to a horse and rode away as it gradually decomposed, or

• Dug some sort of shallow grave, tossed dirt on her corpse to keep animals away, and then came back and dug her up later

As Jon Stewart used to say: "Awwwwkkkkwaaaaarddd."

[Melifeather]

7 hours ago, Tucu said:

We don't have a confirmation from Ned, but we have rumours that he killed AD and that there were other KGs present at the time. Not necessarily at the ToJ.

These are the rumours Cat heard:

This is from Cersei:

And this is from Yandel (the official version after the war):

 

Actually, Arthur is the only one that Ned is credited with killing, and Ned feels - in my opinion - ashamed about it. He pushes away the credit and gives it to Howland. The other two - Hightower and Whent - are not in his waking memories. We only have the World book saying these things, so we should be suspicious of Yandels report, because it was written to please the conquering king.

[JNR]

7 hours ago, St Daga said:

I am still not sure about this being a conscious report on Ned's part of the three kingsguard together. It actually says nothing about any kingsguard, let alone three.

It's up to us to decide whether Ned had a dream about his seven, including Martyn Cassell and himself and Howland, fighting a battle against three KG at Tower A...

...and then on waking, for some reason thought about Tower B, quite a different tower, and a different battle, where Martyn Cassell did die, Ned and Howland lived, and the three KG were not present.  I find that implausible.

7 hours ago, St Daga said:

Well, we see that Dany has no problem giving MMD to the flames, or Kraznys mo Nakloz.

See also Aerion Brightfire, who literally gave himself to wildfire.  When your house's words are "Fire and Blood," fire and blood are probably going to come up repeatedly.

[Brad Stark]

17 minutes ago, JNR said:

Well, let's look at his memory:

This is, in context, almost certainly a reference to the tower in the dream:

The premise that Ned has a dream about a fallen tower in Dorne where there was a battle of seven on three... and then immediately on waking thinks about some completely different tower he himself pulled down to build cairns for corpses in real life... doesn't seem very strong.  I think it was the same tower.

However, I'm just going to note again that Ned never, on waking, thinks about building Lyanna a cairn.

So if per R+L=J, Lyanna was at the TOJ and died there, then Ned either

• Tied her corpse to a horse and rode away as it gradually decomposed, or

• Dug some sort of shallow grave, tossed dirt on her corpse to keep animals away, and then came back and dug her up later

As Jon Stewart used to say: "Awwwwkkkkwaaaaarddd."

This treatment of Lyanna's body is true unless she died at Winterfell, regardless of j=r+l

[Tucu]

10 minutes ago, Brad Stark said:

This treatment of Lyanna's body is true unless she died at Winterfell, regardless of j=r+l

There are other options. If she died close to a town/castle he could have use the Silent Sisters' Delivery Service. Or boiled her body himself and carry the bones. Or use a casket of rum like Aemon.

[Tucu]

21 minutes ago, Feather Crystal said:

Actually, Arthur is the only one that Ned is credited with killing, and Ned feels - in my opinion - ashamed about it. He pushes away the credit and gives it to Howland. The other two - Hightower and Whent - are not in his waking memories. We only have the World book saying these things, so we should be suspicious of Yandels report, because it was written to please the conquering king.

True, but Yandel's should be a plausible story. AD and these other KGs cannot have died at the Trident or Kings Landing, bent the knee or openly fled.

[St Daga]

47 minutes ago, JNR said:

It's up to us to decide whether Ned had a dream about his seven, including Martyn Cassell and himself and Howland, fighting a battle against three KG at Tower A...

...and then on waking, for some reason thought about Tower B, quite a different tower, and a different battle, where Martyn Cassell did die, Ned and Howland lived, and the three KG were not present.  I find that implausible.

Well, Ned wakes and asks about several things, including Jory Cassel, which triggers him to think of Martyn Cassel, who is buried in the south with "the rest". That is what leads him to that thought. He does then give us these numbers of 7 against 3 and only he and Howland living to ride away. And he does think of a tower he pulled down and used to make eight cairns. He also thinks of a tower, but he never consciously thinks of the three kingsguard again. GRRM is often misleading in his text, and I think this could be one of those cases. Honestly, I think it's about a 50/50 chance of this being the correct interpretation, or about it being a misdirect. I just am trying to stay open to other possibilities. 

Ned certainly seems to feel it's a bad omen that he dreamed that dream again, so at least parts of this dream are not just induced by fever or milk of the poppy. But he also says after "so many years" so this is perhaps a dream he has not dreamed for a while. Something in the fight with Jaime's men has triggered this now.

It also strikes me that the cairns are not necessarily covering the bodies of the dead. They could be, but they could also be memorials in honor of the dead (that could be buried at other locations). Ned tells us that Martyn Cassel's body is buried in the far south and that he pulled down a tower and used the "bloody" stones to build eight cairns. We don't really know what those cairns are for, but the most common assumption is that these are grave markers. But the text never says that. Only that Martyn Cassel is buried. Buried, to me anyway, indications burial under the ground, not under a pile of stones, and we are never told the location of Martyn Cassel's burial.  I think the cairns could be in honor of people who died at different times and locations, but the cairns were placed when what ever objective Ned had was finally met. When that goal was met, only Howland and Ned had survived.

I admit the "it was seven against three" does hint at some one time skirmish between sides, but I just think the text is meant to be misleading, and it could have been seven tracking three, not just seven battling against three. I understand I could be very wrong about this line of thinking, but I am trying to look at multiple options.

 

ETA: I should add that one of the things that allows me to even think it truly was a 7:3 showdown is in Ned's fever dream where he says  "as they had in life" in reference to those who rode beside him, and "as it had been in life". But even in the dream aspect, it is the 7:3 that Ned says is "as it had been in life", then "but this was no ordinary three", and then finally the descriptions of Hightower, Dayne and Whent. I am just not sure how much of this is still part of the "as it had been in life". I just think there is some room to doubt that the three kingsguard were all in one place, at one time, facing Ned's "wraiths". I am more than likely wrong, but I like to consider the options.

The burned clear comment from this dream is also interesting. One could consider that House Whent, House Hightower and House Dayne have some dragonblood in their veins, and the fact that their "faces burned clear" does make me wonder if these three men, if they were together, were actually sacrifices of some sort. Burning is an interesting modifier/adjective to use in this case, I think.