Heresy 210 and the Babes in the Wood

[Melifeather]

2 hours ago, JNR said:

Well, let's look at his memory:

This is, in context, almost certainly a reference to the tower in the dream:

The premise that Ned has a dream about a fallen tower in Dorne where there was a battle of seven on three... and then immediately on waking thinks about some completely different tower he himself pulled down to build cairns for corpses in real life... doesn't seem very strong.  I think it was the same tower.

However, I'm just going to note again that Ned never, on waking, thinks about building Lyanna a cairn.

So if per R+L=J, Lyanna was at the TOJ and died there, then Ned either

• Tied her corpse to a horse and rode away as it gradually decomposed, or

• Dug some sort of shallow grave, tossed dirt on her corpse to keep animals away, and then came back and dug her up later

As Jon Stewart used to say: "Awwwwkkkkwaaaaarddd."

The account of Ned's fever dream comes after he and his men were attacked by Jaime and his men after coming out of Chataya's brothel. The details of this attack show up in his fever dream, most notably his last waking vision of the Red Keep walls turning red with blood. I have no doubt that some of Ned's men died at the tower of joy. What I do doubt is the location of the tower, and that the Kingsguard and Lyanna were there.

Ned's fever dream is a combination of multiple events. Some that happened early on in the Rebellion, some that happened afterward, and some that occurred immediately before he's injured by Jaime. Add a little symbolism into the mix and you get the dream.

Ned does having waking moments where he's comparing the details of the "old" dream to real life, and I've said this many times before: the men at the tower of joy were not Kingsguard - they were just ordinary men. You seem to be willing to discard details that don't make sense to you, like strapping Lyanna's dead corpse to his horse - which I might point out isn't even in the dream nor even in his waking thoughts, but you need to push away what I'm going to call the "concluding-fill-in-the-blanks thoughts" and focus strictly on the text, which are:

Five of Ned's men died - one of which that Ned continuously names is Martyn Cassel, but the rest of the named men may not have perished at the tower of joy with Martyn as indicated by Ned's thoughts that he knew their faces as well as his own once, but the years leech at a man's memories: 

Quote

He dreamt an old dream, of three knights in white cloaks, and a tower long fallen, and Lyanna in her bed of blood. In the dream his friends rode with him, as they had in life. Proud Martyn Cassel, Jory’s father; faithful Theo Wull; Ethan Glover, who had been Brandon’s squire; Ser Mark Ryswell, soft of speech and gentle of heart; the crannogman, Howland Reed; Lord Dustin on his great red stallion. Ned had known their faces as well as he knew his own once, but the years leech at a man’s memories, even those he has vowed never to forget. In the dream they were only shadows, grey wraiths on horses made of mist.

 

That 3 ordinary men at the tower of joy died. Ned said his men faced three ordinary men, but in his dream they were not ordinary.

Quote

They were seven, facing three. In the dream as it had been in life. Yet these were no ordinary three.

 

Ned's fever dream ends with his sword fight with Arthur being interrupted by Lyanna's scream of "Eddard", and then he is awoken by Vayon Poole. The dream doesn't actually include any details about pulling the tower down, nor making the cairns. What I find extremely interesting is that no where in the text does anyone have any waking recollection where the tower of joy is located. We assume it's in Dorne in the red mountains, because that's where it's located in Ned's dream, but remember his last waking thought was of the Red Keep's walls turning red with blood. Having the Red Keep turn red with blood is an obvious nod to the Sack of Kings Landing where there was a great slaughter of people who were tricked into opening the gates. 

Quote

  It would have to be his grandfather, for Jory’s father was buried far to the south. Martyn Cassel had perished with the rest. Ned had pulled the tower down afterward, and used its bloody stones to build eight cairns upon the ridge. It was said that Rhaegar had named that place the tower of joy, but for Ned it was a bitter memory. They had been seven against three, yet only two had lived to ride away; Eddard Stark himself and the little crannogman, Howland Reed. He did not think it omened well that he should dream that dream again after so many years.

When Ned thinks of Martyn Cassel being "buried far to the south" we are tempted to believe this means south of where Ned is currently sitting in Kings Landing, but the context is about where to bury Rory Cassel. Ned said Rory would want to be buried at Winterfell with his grandfather, because obviously is father is buried further south than Winterfell.

 

2 hours ago, JNR said:

It's up to us to decide whether Ned had a dream about his seven, including Martyn Cassell and himself and Howland, fighting a battle against three KG at Tower A...

...and then on waking, for some reason thought about Tower B, quite a different tower, and a different battle, where Martyn Cassell did die, Ned and Howland lived, and the three KG were not present.  I find that implausible.

See also Aerion Brightfire, who literally gave himself to wildfire.  When your house's words are "Fire and Blood," fire and blood are probably going to come up repeatedly.

GRRM has written a magic trick - a slight of hand that persuades the reader to follow a misdirect. Magic tricks look implausible, but there are real hidden things going on in the background while our attention is diverted. 

[Lady Rhodes]

Hi All! I am new to this thread, and while I have read through most of these posts, I hope I am not covering something that has already been touched on. I am going to dance around this topic a bit, touching on different points that I think all matter to the mysteries of ASOIAF. Than you for your patience and feedback in advance!

Part of GRRM's genius is that he gets both us as readers and his characters as participants in his world to second guess everything: to doubt, to see things that aren't there - mirages.  So, the key is to determine which mirages are false glimmers of light and which are actual oasises of conspiracy.

First, after GRRM promising to focus solely on Winds of Winter, we find out that Fire and Blood is coming out.  Around the same time as this announcement regarding F&B, we have Diana Gabaldon's interview where she states (this is my paraphrasing) that GRRM told her that he has painted himself into a corner by killing a character that he needed, and she told him to paint himself out of it.  My theory as to why WoW is taking so long and why F&B comes out first is that 1) He has to rewrite significant portions of WoW to paint himself out of this corner and 2) In order to make things work, he has to establish some historical precedent for something - a magical act, a historical lineage, and agreement, etc. I will be paying careful attention to anything mystical, magical, or any sort of agreement that is highlighted in F&B.

Now, for the mysteries in Dorne.

I am a fire R+L=J believer.  That said, I do think that something was going on in the Red Mountains, the  Tower of Joy, and Dorne in General.

We know that Rhaegar and Lyanna were together, either by force or as willing companions. Why did he take her to Dorne, where Elia his wife is from? Why would anyone take their paramour/new bride to his legal wife's new region? Why not Dragonstone? It is just asking for trouble. We get the impression from Oberyn in SoS when he talks with Tyrion that he has a slow burning anger toward Rhaegar for mistreating and casting Elia aside. Doran was slow to send aid to the Targaryen's because he of his anger toward Rhaegar. Or so we are led to believe.

I think Doran and Elia, though not Oberyn, were in on the mysteries that were going on in Dorne. I think plans just went horribly wrong.

Reasons:
1. It makes zero sense for Rhaegar to take Lyanna to his legal wife's homeland unless it was with her permission, Doran's knowledge, and the location as being important. I think Dorne as a local (it never snows in Dorne) is mystically important and whatever was going on there had to occur there, it couldn't occur elsewhere.

2. Doran has shown himself to be someone who holds his cards close to his chest and being slow to act. It shouldn't be surprising that he would keep something a secret or act like he was angry at Rhaegar to keep up pretenses.  Why would he be so willing, after the war, to have Arianne married to Viserys (Braavos pact)? We are told that he was angered at his sister's murder, along with his niece and nephew. Certainly plausible, but given that he was slow to provide forces, which surely aided in the fact that King's Landing was sacked, and his willingness to send Quentyn to marry Daenerys, leads me to believe he is more forgiving of the Targaryen's than what we would see as normal.

3. Jaime tells us in SoS that Rhaegar spoke to him at the Red Keep before he left for the Trident about changes that were going to be taking place.  If he was at the Red Keep, he was surely in contact with his wife Elia. Yet, no one - not Jaime, not Pycelle, not Varys (which should be of particular suspicion), talks of Rhaegar and Elia talking, of an argument between them, or of any sort of altercation. I find this odd. If your husband took off with another woman, wouldn't you be questioning him? Elia may be described as meek, but I don't think that she is incapable of anger.

There establishes my first thoughts: Elia and Doran knew what Rhaegar and Lyanna were doing in Dorne, They were doing it with their permission and/or help, and Dorne was a specific local that these events had to take place.

As Barbry Dustin alludes to Theon in Dance, I think Harrenhal was a meeting of the powers event disguised as a tourney. I think Rhaegar's intentions were to save the realm from what was becoming the obvious deterioration of Aerys' mind. However, I think this came into conflict with what Rhaegar knows of the PtwP prophecy and possible Azor Ahi. Rhaegar realized that Lyanna would help him complete this prophecy. A magical duty and a political duty, unfortunately, crashed into one another.

Personally, I don't think Rhaella and Viserys were ever on Dragonstone with Willem Darry. I think Rhaella died giving birth to a still born child. I think Lyanna had twins: Jon and Danerys. Danerys looked too much like Rhaegar, so Ned sent her off with Willam Darry. I think Ashara may have been Dany's milk nurse, that Starfall has a Red Door, and that when Willam took Viserys and Dany to Braavos, that is when Ashara jumped.  I don't know who Ashara's child is - perhaps really a still born.

[Melifeather]

44 minutes ago, Tucu said:

True, but Yandel's should be a plausible story. AD and these other KGs cannot have died at the Trident or Kings Landing, bent the knee or openly fled.

Yandel is telling a plausible story, but its not very detailed if you really look at it. I don't think he confirmed anything. Just wrote the accepted story that Robert accepts.

42 minutes ago, St Daga said:

Ned certainly seems to feel it's a bad omen that he dreamed that dream again, so at least parts of this dream are not just induced by fever or milk of the poppy. But he also says after "so many years" so this is perhaps a dream he has not dreamed for a while. Something in the fight with Jaime's men has triggered this now.

I agree that it's not a dream that he's dreamed for awhile, so it is an old dream. He wonders if its a bad omen, so perhaps when he had the dream before - many years ago - did he have an ominous dream in the past and then it came true? Prophecy is open to interpretation until it happens, and then in retrospect you see how the dream or prophecy applied to real life. The example of the Red Keep's bloody walls turning up as the red mountains of Dorne is an example. It could just be a comparison. Certainly the scene that Ned's van encountered after the Lannisters sacked Kings Landing would have looked like a bloody slaughter, and if Ned had made a trip to Dorne with his men and were surprised by three men hiding in a tower and also resulted in slaughter, then it is logical that those two events would get conflated in a dream.

 

43 minutes ago, St Daga said:

ETA: I should add that one of the things that allows me to even think it truly was a 7:3 showdown is in Ned's fever dream where he says  "as they had in life" in reference to those who rode beside him, and "as it had been in life". But even in the dream aspect, it is the 7:3 that Ned says is "as it had been in life", then "but this was no ordinary three", and then finally the descriptions of Hightower, Dayne and Whent. I am just not sure how much of this is still part of the "as it had been in life". I just think there is some room to doubt that the three kingsguard were all in one place, at one time, facing Ned's "wraiths". I am more than likely wrong, but I like to consider the options.

I agree that the use of "as it had been in life" is an indication that the events of the dream had similar elements, such as the faces of Ned's men. These were men that rode with Ned. He says that but he also says the years have leeched his memories.

43 minutes ago, St Daga said:

The burned clear comment from this dream is also interesting. One could consider that House Whent, House Hightower and House Dayne have some dragonblood in their veins, and the fact that their "faces burned clear" does make me wonder if these three men, if they were together, were actually sacrifices of some sort. Burning is an interesting modifier/adjective to use in this case, I think.

Since the elements of Drogo's tent revival are so similar but inverted to some of the details in Ned's fever dream, I think we can conclude that whatever happened to Daenerys's bloodriders could possibly be the reverse of what happened to the three Kingsguard.

Rakharo is still alive, and he and Aggo are searching for Daenerys.

Quaro (Dany's guard) was killed by Qotho, the most sadistic of Drogo's bloodriders. He is replaced by Aggo.

Jjogo is alive, but currently a captive of the Yunkish.

What could this mean for the three Kingsguard? Since two of Dany's are alive and one is dead, then I suspect two of the Kingsguard are dead and one is yet alive.

[Melifeather]

39 minutes ago, Lady Rhodes said:

We know that Rhaegar and Lyanna were together, either by force or as willing companions.

First of all - welcome to Heresy! But secondly, but we do not know that Rhaegar and Lyanna were together. Where is the proof of your assertion? The only confirmation they were together was at the Harrenhal tourney when he placed the crown of love and beauty in her lap. The rest is assumption built upon rumor.

Thank you for the intriguing tidbit about "painting himself into a corner". I wonder who he was killing off that he decided he now needed?

[Lady Rhodes]

12 minutes ago, Feather Crystal said:

First of all - welcome to Heresy! But secondly, but we do not know that Rhaegar and Lyanna were together. Where is the proof of your assertion? The only confirmation they were together was at the Harrenhal tourney when he placed the crown of love and beauty in her lap. The rest is assumption built upon rumor.

Thank you for the intriguing tidbit about "painting himself into a corner". I wonder who he was killing off that he decided he now needed?

Thank you for the welcome! Hmmm. I follow your line of thought. It’s heavily implied, but of course, it is implied as a kidnapping. I am of the opinion that it was a willing companions situation and that Rhaegar persuaded her to his line of thinking-I don’t know if they were in love or not, but I think it was a mutual agreement. 

Yes, I think there is something that has perhaps been alluded to but not widely established that GRRM has to set up in order for the whole thing to make sense. I think there are strong possibilities for Quentyn Martell and Arys Oakheart. I don’t  think the dead character necessarily need be an important or major one. I just think their eyes and ears are important.

 

I personally think Dorne is where the original battle for the dawn took place and that Dawn is lightbringer. 

I think it’s possible that the children of the forest didn’t break the arm of dorne to stop the Andals, but to stop the Others from traveling to Essos if they failed.

[Frey family reunion]

2 hours ago, JNR said:

The premise that Ned has a dream about a fallen tower in Dorne where there was a battle of seven on three... and then immediately on waking thinks about some completely different tower he himself pulled down to build cairns for corpses in real life... doesn't seem very strong.  I think it was the same tower.

However, I'm just going to note again that Ned never, on waking, thinks about building Lyanna a cairn.

So if per R+L=J, Lyanna was at the TOJ and died there, then Ned either

• Tied her corpse to a horse and rode away as it gradually decomposed, or

• Dug some sort of shallow grave, tossed dirt on her corpse to keep animals away, and then came back and dug her up later

As Jon Stewart used to say: "Awwwwkkkkwaaaaarddd."

I also have this image in my head of a four poster bed just sitting out by itself in the middle of the desert.

[PrettyPig]

1 hour ago, St Daga said:

The burned clear comment from this dream is also interesting. One could consider that House Whent, House Hightower and House Dayne have some dragonblood in their veins, and the fact that their "faces burned clear" does make me wonder if these three men, if they were together, were actually sacrifices of some sort. Burning is an interesting modifier/adjective to use in this case, I think.

You may be on to something here.   Most people here have seen some form of my Mirri’s Tent / TOJ parallel essay or know the gist of it at least - that, broken down, these two events mirror each other.   

However, a continuation of that is in the aftermath- such as Ned tearing down the tower and Dany building hers....the huge PLATFORM on which she burns Drogo, Mirri, and herself, and then walks out with three newborn dragon babies.  

What if the tower of joy....wasn’t really a tower at all?    Or rather, it was a very specific TYPE of tower?

I now need a reread of Dany X, stat!

[Melifeather]

 

1 hour ago, Feather Crystal said:

Ned's fever dream ends with his sword fight with Arthur being interrupted by Lyanna's scream of "Eddard", and then he is awoken by Vayon Poole. The dream doesn't actually include any details about pulling the tower down, nor making the cairns. What I find extremely interesting is that no where in the text does anyone have any waking recollection where the tower of joy is located. We assume it's in Dorne in the red mountains, because that's where it's located in Ned's dream, but remember his last waking thought was of the Red Keep's walls turning red with blood. Having the Red Keep turn red with blood is an obvious nod to the Sack of Kings Landing where there was a great slaughter of people who were tricked into opening the gates. 

Expanding on this...

The walls of the Red Keep were red with the blood of a slaughter of people who were tricked. I think this is important, because it implies that the reason Ned's men were slaughtered was because they were also tricked.

My thoughts about someone being tricked about men in a tower bring to mind Theon's taking of Moat Cailin. Ramsay sent Theon to parley with the Ironborn holding the tower, offering food and safe passage if they surrender unarmed. Appearances that the Ironborn are even "holding" the tower is tenuous at best. Inside all the men are either diseased, starving, dying, or already dead. Their position is a magic trick - its the power of suggestion - a slight of hand. Theon convinces them to "surrender" and come out, but Ramsay's promises are also a trick, and he has the men killed and flayed with their bodies displayed along the causeway. All this "tricking" going on should be our clue that the tower of joy is also a big red trick! 

[Frey family reunion]

2 hours ago, St Daga said:

The burned clear comment from this dream is also interesting. One could consider that House Whent, House Hightower and House Dayne have some dragonblood in their veins, and the fact that their "faces burned clear" does make me wonder if these three men, if they were together, were actually sacrifices of some sort. Burning is an interesting modifier/adjective to use in this case, I think.

Interesting.  Then why would Ned kill them to stop them?  Just let them sacrifice themselves.  Unless of course there was to be a fourth (or fifth, or sixth?) sacrifice, like Dany who voluntarily walked into the fire.  Of course a babe, can't exactly consent to that could he or she?

Quote

"Will you make a song for him?"  the woman asked.

"He has a song," the man replied.  "He is the prince that was promised, and his is the song of ice and fire."  He looked up when he said it and his eyes met Dany's and it seemed as if he saw her standing there beyond the door.  "There must be one more," he said, though whether he was speaking to her or the woman in the bed she could not say.  "The dragon has three heads."  He went up to the window seat, picked up a harp, and ran his fingers lightly over its silvery strings.  Sweet sadness filled the room as man and wife and babe faded like the morning mist, only the music lingering behind to speed her on her way.

 

[Melifeather]

14 minutes ago, Lady Rhodes said:

Thank you for the welcome! Hmmm. I follow your line of thought. It’s heavily implied, but of course, it is implied as a kidnapping. I am of the opinion that it was a willing companions situation and that Rhaegar persuaded her to his line of thinking-I don’t know if they were in love or not, but I think it was a mutual agreement. 

The kidnapping is the story that was fed to Brandon Stark at Riverrun, and its one that Robert accepted and used to give his conquest "honor". Therefore, if Maester Yandel wrote the World Book as the official history as accepted and approved by Robert, then he would insert the details that Robert knows and accepts. That doesn't make it the truth. History is written by the victors, but the truth can have facts very contrary to the history books.

We have been dissecting the official kidnapping story (among some others) and have examined evidence that appears to be quite contrary. We may not have come to a consensus about all of it, but I think we all agree that certain elements don't seem to add up. Is it possible that the kidnapping story is false? Even you suspect certain details may not be true and lean towards a more romantic explanation, because that makes sense to you. I'm coming from a position of recognizing certain parallels and parallel inversions. In ASOIAF, history is a wheel. Why has GRRM set the story up in this way? Why do similar situations keep happening, and when they do happen, why does the opposite thing happen? Trying to solve these questions has caused me to look at some of these "official" stories more suspiciously. Is there evidence that suggests something is false? Absolutely, and that's why people gravitate to the Heresy threads, because outside of this thread there is a tendency to attack anyone wanting to question the accepted story. If you are here, then you have doubts about what is accepted and what is not.

[Frey family reunion]

19 minutes ago, PrettyPig said:

You may be on to something here.   Most people here have seen some form of my Mirri’s Tent / TOJ parallel essay or know the gist of it at least - that, broken down, these two events mirror each other.   

If Mirri's tent parallels the tower of joy aspect of Ned's dream, I think Robert's death bed is meant to mimic the part of Ned's dream that deals with Lyanna's death.

Quote

"Serve the boar at my funeral feast," Robert rasped.  "Apple in its mouth, skin seared crisp.  Eat the bastard.  Don't care if you choke on him.  Promise me Ned."

"I promise."  Promise me, Ned, Lyanna's voice echoed.

Now fast forward to Whitetree:

Quote

It was the biggest tree Jon Snow had ever seen, the trunk near eight feet wide, the branches spreading so far that the entire village was shaded beneath their canopy.  The size did not disturb him so much as the face ... the mouth especially, no simple carved slash, but a jagged hollow large enough to swallow a sheep.

Those are not sheep bones, though.  Nor is that a sheep's skull in the ashes.

 

[PrettyPig]

19 minutes ago, Frey family reunion said:

Interesting.  Then why would Ned kill them to stop them?  Just let them sacrifice themselves.  Unless of course there was to be a fourth (or fifth, or sixth?) sacrifice, like Dany who voluntarily walked into the fire.  Of course a babe, can't exactly consent to that could he or she?

I don’t think it was themselves they were sacrificing.   

George has been trolling us this whole time with his misleading description.  The TOJ isn’t a tower in the traditional sense...it’s a freaking sacrificial altar.  A round one, probably multi-level, made of stone.

 

ETA:  my guess is that it is modeled loosely after the Chinese Temple of Heaven.

[Lady Rhodes]

Thank you so much for being welcoming and helping me as I delve into the story. I have a degree in English literature, so I am familiar with deep analysis and being skeptical. I tend to lean toward accepting most things as simply a writer trying to vary their style and word choice so as not to be ultra repetitive, but I am conscious of word choice being, well, a conscious choice: if something is there, it is meant to be there. 

You are right in that I think the kidnapping is a fabricated story. I read on a thread long ago (and I regrettably have forgotten some of the finer details) that littlefinger spread the lie on his way being transported back to the fingers-he was pissed off at losing the dual and knew Brandon would be incensed by a stain on his sister’s honor. I think timeline wise that matches up

[Brad Stark]

1 hour ago, Lady Rhodes said:

Hi All! I am new to this thread, and while I have read through most of these posts, I hope I am not covering something that has already been touched on. I am going to dance around this topic a bit, touching on different points that I think all matter to the mysteries of ASOIAF. Than you for your patience and feedback in advance!

Part of GRRM's genius is that he gets both us as readers and his characters as participants in his world to second guess everything: to doubt, to see things that aren't there - mirages.  So, the key is to determine which mirages are false glimmers of light and which are actual oasises of conspiracy.

First, after GRRM promising to focus solely on Winds of Winter, we find out that Fire and Blood is coming out.  Around the same time as this announcement regarding F&B, we have Diana Gabaldon's interview where she states (this is my paraphrasing) that GRRM told her that he has painted himself into a corner by killing a character that he needed, and she told him to paint himself out of it.  My theory as to why WoW is taking so long and why F&B comes out first is that 1) He has to rewrite significant portions of WoW to paint himself out of this corner and 2) In order to make things work, he has to establish some historical precedent for something - a magical act, a historical lineage, and agreement, etc. I will be paying careful attention to anything mystical, magical, or any sort of agreement that is highlighted in F&B.

Now, for the mysteries in Dorne.

I am a fire R+L=J believer.  That said, I do think that something was going on in the Red Mountains, the  Tower of Joy, and Dorne in General.

We know that Rhaegar and Lyanna were together, either by force or as willing companions. Why did he take her to Dorne, where Elia his wife is from? Why would anyone take their paramour/new bride to his legal wife's new region? Why not Dragonstone? It is just asking for trouble. We get the impression from Oberyn in SoS when he talks with Tyrion that he has a slow burning anger toward Rhaegar for mistreating and casting Elia aside. Doran was slow to send aid to the Targaryen's because he of his anger toward Rhaegar. Or so we are led to believe.

I think Doran and Elia, though not Oberyn, were in on the mysteries that were going on in Dorne. I think plans just went horribly wrong.

Reasons:
1. It makes zero sense for Rhaegar to take Lyanna to his legal wife's homeland unless it was with her permission, Doran's knowledge, and the location as being important. I think Dorne as a local (it never snows in Dorne) is mystically important and whatever was going on there had to occur there, it couldn't occur elsewhere.

2. Doran has shown himself to be someone who holds his cards close to his chest and being slow to act. It shouldn't be surprising that he would keep something a secret or act like he was angry at Rhaegar to keep up pretenses.  Why would he be so willing, after the war, to have Arianne married to Viserys (Braavos pact)? We are told that he was angered at his sister's murder, along with his niece and nephew. Certainly plausible, but given that he was slow to provide forces, which surely aided in the fact that King's Landing was sacked, and his willingness to send Quentyn to marry Daenerys, leads me to believe he is more forgiving of the Targaryen's than what we would see as normal.

3. Jaime tells us in SoS that Rhaegar spoke to him at the Red Keep before he left for the Trident about changes that were going to be taking place.  If he was at the Red Keep, he was surely in contact with his wife Elia. Yet, no one - not Jaime, not Pycelle, not Varys (which should be of particular suspicion), talks of Rhaegar and Elia talking, of an argument between them, or of any sort of altercation. I find this odd. If your husband took off with another woman, wouldn't you be questioning him? Elia may be described as meek, but I don't think that she is incapable of anger.

There establishes my first thoughts: Elia and Doran knew what Rhaegar and Lyanna were doing in Dorne, They were doing it with their permission and/or help, and Dorne was a specific local that these events had to take place.

As Barbry Dustin alludes to Theon in Dance, I think Harrenhal was a meeting of the powers event disguised as a tourney. I think Rhaegar's intentions were to save the realm from what was becoming the obvious deterioration of Aerys' mind. However, I think this came into conflict with what Rhaegar knows of the PtwP prophecy and possible Azor Ahi. Rhaegar realized that Lyanna would help him complete this prophecy. A magical duty and a political duty, unfortunately, crashed into one another.

Personally, I don't think Rhaella and Viserys were ever on Dragonstone with Willem Darry. I think Rhaella died giving birth to a still born child. I think Lyanna had twins: Jon and Danerys. Danerys looked too much like Rhaegar, so Ned sent her off with Willam Darry. I think Ashara may have been Dany's milk nurse, that Starfall has a Red Door, and that when Willam took Viserys and Dany to Braavos, that is when Ashara jumped.  I don't know who Ashara's child is - perhaps really a still born.

A fire believer?  Obviously a typo, but are you a firm believer or a denier? 

We don't have Elia's POV, but it is possible she was angry with Rhaegar but not in front of Jamie.  Women were not equal to men as is, and Rhaegar was the crown prince.  

Elia certainly could have known Rhaegar was unfaithful and allowed it.  The two were never in love but got along.  Maybe Elia had a lover of her own or simply didn't want to be with Rhaegar that way, and was thankful he found someone else. 

[Frey family reunion]

1 minute ago, PrettyPig said:

George has been trolling us this whole time with his misleading description.  The TOJ isn’t a tower in the traditional sense...it’s a freaking sacrificial altar.  A round one, probably multi-level, made of stone.

I've been beating this drum for a while now.  It's more of a furnace with a chimney.  There is a biblical parallel to the Caananite god, Moloch (depicted as a man with the head of a bull), the valley of Hinnom (a geographic parallel to the Prince's Pass in the Red Mountains where the tower of joy resides), and Gehenna.

Per Milton's Paradise Lost:

Quote

First MOLOCH, horrid King besear'd with blood

Of human sacrifice, and parents tears,

Though, for the noyse of Drums and Timbrels loud,

Their children's cries unheard that passed through fire

To his grim Idol.  Him the AMMONITE

"Passing children through fire" seemed to be the common expression for child sacrifice back in the day.  The children were literally burned to death.  Now look where the tower of joy resides:  In the Prince's Pass.  Or in other words, where the prince is passed through fire.

[PrettyPig]

1 minute ago, Frey family reunion said:

I've been beating this drum for a while now.  It's more of a furnace with a chimney.  There is a biblical parallel to the Caananite god, Moloch (depicted as a man with the head of a bull), the valley of Hinnom (a geographic parallel to the Prince's Pass in the Red Mountains where the tower of joy resides), and Gehenna.

Per Milton's Paradise Lost:

"Passing children through fire" seemed to be the common expression for child sacrifice back in the day.  The children were literally burned to death.  Now look where the tower of joy resides:  In the Prince's Pass.  Or in other words, where the prince is passed through fire.

It’s what the middle head is for.  Brilliant.

[PrettyPig]

2 minutes ago, PrettyPig said:

Passing children through fire" seemed to be the common expression for child sacrifice back in the day.  The children were literally burned to death.  

And believe it or not, this connects to both Bael (Ba’al) and Ashara Dayne.   Wow.

[Lady Rhodes]

16 minutes ago, Brad Stark said:

A fire believer?  Obviously a typo, but are you a firm believer or a denier? 

We don't have Elia's POV, but it is possible she was angry with Rhaegar but not in front of Jamie.  Women were not equal to men as is, and Rhaegar was the crown prince.  

Elia certainly could have known Rhaegar was unfaithful and allowed it.  The two were never in love but got along.  Maybe Elia had a lover of her own or simply didn't want to be with Rhaegar that way, and was thankful he found someone else. 

My goodness! How embarrassing. I guess that’s what I get for typing on a smartphone! Haha

oh, you are certainly right about Elia. Rhaegar was the crown prince as you said. However, not even Varys alluding to anything? Odd, especially given the (f)Aegon. Mess he is involved in

[Tucu]

23 minutes ago, Frey family reunion said:

I've been beating this drum for a while now.  It's more of a furnace with a chimney.  There is a biblical parallel to the Caananite god, Moloch (depicted as a man with the head of a bull), the valley of Hinnom (a geographic parallel to the Prince's Pass in the Red Mountains where the tower of joy resides), and Gehenna.

Per Milton's Paradise Lost:

"Passing children through fire" seemed to be the common expression for child sacrifice back in the day.  The children were literally burned to death.  Now look where the tower of joy resides:  In the Prince's Pass.  Or in other words, where the prince is passed through fire.

To complement the Moloch/bull/Hightower theme, we have the the bat of House Whent; in central american mythology they have Camazotz, a bat god associated with sacrifice, death and night. This god is also identified with the god of fire.

[Lady Rhodes]

Again, I am new, so I appreciate any explanations to my questions, however dumb they may be.

I understand that we think the ToJ isn’t what it seems, but why do we think it’s a sacrificial altar? Why do we think a child or children or anyone was ritually sacrificed there? I am not saying that it’s wrong but where in the canonical text are we led to this impression?