Jump to content
Black Crow

Heresy 210 and the Babes in the Wood

Recommended Posts

3 hours ago, Feather Crystal said:

This has always been a stumbling block for me. If Jon is Rhaegar's and Lyanna's son and Daenerys is Aerys and Rhaella's, then he's mostly from the fire side, correct? Not enough ice in him for the books to be a story of ice and fire.

Rhaegar was fire, Lyanna was ice, Jon would be equally both. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, Frey family reunion said:

Do you have a cite on that?  Because I can't recall GRRM ever making a comment on that.  Or being that unequivocal on almost any subject.

Ran Ashara Dayne is described as having violet eyes. Is this from a marriage to the Martells after Daeron II's sister married into that line, thus giving them some Targaryen features? From other Valyrian descendants? And, um, mind telling us the Dayne banner (emblem and field)? The Sword of the Morning and his sister has caught my imagination. ;)

George_RR_Martin I would have to consult my notes to tell you the Dayne arms. Offhand I don't recall. As for the violet eyes . . .look, Elizabeth Taylor has violet eyes, and she's not of Valyrian descent (that I know). Nor is she related to Aegon the Conquerer. Many Swedes have blue eyes, but not all those with blue eyes are Swedes, and not all Swedes have blue eyes. The same confusions exist in the 7 Kingdoms.

Ran So many banners, I was shooting in the dark. And I was actually arguingthat she was a Liz Taylor type. Thanks. :)

George_RR_Martin If you want to figure out a family's descent, the names are a better clue than the eyes. Houses descended from the First Men tend to have simple short names, often descriptive. Stark. Reed. Flint. Tallhart (tall hart). Etc. The Valyrian names are fairly distinct are well: The "ae" usage usually suggests a Valyrian in the family tree. The Andal names are . . . well, neith Stark nor Targaryen, if that makes sense. Lannister. Arryn. Tyrell. Etc. Of course, you also need to remember that there have been hundreds and in some cases thousands of years of interbreeding, so hardly anyone is pure Andal or First Man.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

So not unequivocal, but deliberately misleading if the Dayne's traits are Valyrian, which is uncharacteristic of GRRM.  If these were Valyrian traits, he'd either outright say so, or give a 'read on and find out' answer. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Interestingly, Dayne does not really fit the naming pattern GRRM gives.  It is simple, but not at all descriptive. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 hours ago, Feather Crystal said:

Just curious - where did you read that Arthur was associated with pissing? 

 

The only reference I can recall was a sarcastic remark, possibly by one of the Lannister brothers that the great Ser Arthur was so good that he could fight off [insert number of your choice] foes with one hand while taking a piss with the other

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
17 hours ago, Brad Stark said:

Jon is not a character I connected to the sword, just because even the most tin foiled theories don't suggest he's a Dayne.

Ashara Dayne as a prospect for Jon's mother is the earliest one floated by the text, earlier even than Wylla; "Jon might be half-Dayne" isn't tinfoil, it's as old as it gets, as far as Jon's parentage theories go. Personally, I've always been curious to learn about what Eddard's relationship with Ashara was, before things fell apart catastrophically, and he was forced to take up Brandon's obligations.

There are also Arthur + Lyanna theories, which aren't 'tinfoil,' but I find them to be pretty weak--it's built on many of the same assumptions as RLJ, except without any added textual context to even remotely suggest Arthur Dayne has motive in that scenario. 

Indeed, it's even contradictory to Eddard and Arthur's respective portrayals, as it suggests a situation in which Arthur Dayne takes his duties just seriously enough that he helped to aide in Lyanna's abduction, and killed several of Eddard's friends in order to keep her a prisoner, even after the men that would have theoretically issued his orders are dead; while, at the same time, he views his vows just flexibly enough that he impregnated a woman that was betrothed to one of Eddard's closest friends. 

IMO, that relates poorly to the way that Arthur was written, and seems likely to worsen Eddard's opinion of Arthur, not to improve it--keeping in mind the way he perceives Jaime in comparison to the members of Aerys' KG that kept their vows.

Edited by Matthew.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Brad Stark said:

Interestingly, Dayne does not really fit the naming pattern GRRM gives.  It is simple, but not at all descriptive. 

In real life, the Dayne surname derives from deign/deignier/dignus. So it would mean worthy or dignified.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, Brad Stark said:

Ran Ashara Dayne is described as having violet eyes. Is this from a marriage to the Martells after Daeron II's sister married into that line, thus giving them some Targaryen features? From other Valyrian descendants? And, um, mind telling us the Dayne banner (emblem and field)? The Sword of the Morning and his sister has caught my imagination. ;)

George_RR_Martin I would have to consult my notes to tell you the Dayne arms. Offhand I don't recall. As for the violet eyes . . .look, Elizabeth Taylor has violet eyes, and she's not of Valyrian descent (that I know). Nor is she related to Aegon the Conquerer. Many Swedes have blue eyes, but not all those with blue eyes are Swedes, and not all Swedes have blue eyes. The same confusions exist in the 7 Kingdoms.

Ran So many banners, I was shooting in the dark. And I was actually arguingthat she was a Liz Taylor type. Thanks. :)

George_RR_Martin If you want to figure out a family's descent, the names are a better clue than the eyes. Houses descended from the First Men tend to have simple short names, often descriptive. Stark. Reed. Flint. Tallhart (tall hart). Etc. The Valyrian names are fairly distinct are well: The "ae" usage usually suggests a Valyrian in the family tree. The Andal names are . . . well, neith Stark nor Targaryen, if that makes sense. Lannister. Arryn. Tyrell. Etc. Of course, you also need to remember that there have been hundreds and in some cases thousands of years of interbreeding, so hardly anyone is pure Andal or First Man.

I don't know, to me this is simply more of GRRM dancing around a question he doesn't want to answer either yes or no to.  He's pretty good at that.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
25 minutes ago, Matthew. said:

Ashara Dayne as a prospect for Jon's mother is the earliest one floated by the text, earlier even than Wylla; "Jon might be half-Dayne" isn't tinfoil, it's as old as it gets, as far as Jon's parentage theories go. Personally, I've always been curious to learn about what Eddard's relationship with Ashara was, before things fell apart catastrophically, and he was forced to take up Brandon's obligations.

 

Jon as Lord Eddard's son by Ashara Dayne makes a lot of sense, but is, I suspect too straightforward. If Jon sprang from a relationship severed by Lord Eddard in the name of duty and ended decisively by Ashara Dayne's suicide, then there is no mystery and no need for a mystery.

And nor does such an "innocent" explanation fit with the other Dornish mysteries, not least what was really going on at that tower.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
5 minutes ago, Frey family reunion said:

I don't know, to me this is simply more of GRRM dancing around a question he doesn't want to answer either yes or no to.  He's pretty good at that.

That and perhaps warning that these things are not significant

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
5 hours ago, SirArthur said:

I do not really think that matters. Some minor family with the traits could have also married into Dayne. That was my point about Essos. In Westerosy terms that could be a Velaryon, a Celtigar, even a Martell before they lost the trait. 

I agree with this, I think.  If I'm understanding you're point, House Dayne doesn't have to receive a Targaryen bloodline through marriage with an actual Targaryen.  It could come through marriages to House Velaryon for example or through some other intermediary house.  House Plumm is an example, where the Valyrian bloodline may have been received through Lord Plumm's marriage to a Targaryen princess, or more likely they got a Targaryen bloodline through that Targaryen princess' affair with another Targaryen.

Edited by Frey family reunion

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, Brad Stark said:

Rhaegar was fire, Lyanna was ice, Jon would be equally both. 

I just don't see the whole ASOIAF series as being about only Jon when Daenerys is being setup as a Jesus-like Messiah coming from the east to kill all those resurrected dead. IMO leaving Dany out as the "fire" side would be a mistake.

1 hour ago, Black Crow said:

The only reference I can recall was a sarcastic remark, possibly by one of the Lannister brothers that the great Ser Arthur was so good that he could fight off [insert number of your choice] foes with one hand while taking a piss with the other

Thank you! That's awesome! A sword in each hand! One magical and one, er...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 minute ago, Feather Crystal said:

I just don't see the whole ASOIAF series as being about only Jon when Daenerys is being setup as a Jesus-like Messiah coming from the east to kill all those resurrected dead. IMO leaving Dany out as the "fire" side would be a mistake.

Thank you! That's awesome! A sword in each hand! One magical and one, er...

:agree:

As to both

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 hours ago, Black Crow said:

And nor does such an "innocent" explanation fit with the other Dornish mysteries, not least what was really going on at that tower.

I don't disagree, but Jon as a half-Dayne, in general, is not a strong explanation for the mysteries surrounding Dorne--there's no particular need to initiate a conspiracy surrounding Dawn/The Sword of the Morning in the first place, and it doesn't address Rhaegar's place in events, nor why the three KG were willing to kill Eddard. 

I think it more likely that the conspiracy in Dorne involved (with a lot of potential for overlap):
-The swap of Aegon VI
-An attempt to hatch dragons
-An attempt to create a third head of the dragon
-RLJ
-Dany, and the House with the Red Door

I suppose this comes down to whether or not one views Jon's place in the events in Dorne as incidental, or central--if it's the former, having anyone other than Eddard as Jon's father is just trading emotional resonance for brief novelty. Granted, I am biased toward preferring Eddard as Jon's father.

Edited by Matthew.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Matthew. said:

I don't disagree, but Jon as a half-Dayne, in general, is not a strong explanation for the mysteries surrounding Dorne

Jon is, in general, not a good explanation. As the KG points out: they are there to protect the royal family, not the king alone.  And the last three KG as a protection for the king is not really a coherent picture, when there is royal family left somewhere else: they should split in the scenario of king Jon. Unless they have direct orders to do different. But there is none left to give that order. Especially to Hightower. Rhaegar certainly has no command over the Lord Commander. Even less when he is on king's order.

The better scenario for the KG is actually Rhaegar as the dragon (with the three (baby) heads)*, who should be woken from stone at the ToJ. It makes sense for a Dayne to be there, as the prophecy is not fully understood and Lightbringer shares features with Dawn. And if I interpret it correctly, the prophecy was fullfilled at the ToJ, amidst "salt and smoke". It would fit so much better for a lot of characters, even Melisandre, the searcher of AA.

And Jon as a golem would also fit much better to his "smoking" when he is killed, to the story about dragons as golems and to all the golem figures at some towers. Golem Jon binds the story much better together than baby king R+L=Jon.  Bonus point for Jon as King Rhaegar. 

 

 

*like in Maggy's prophecy about the number of children** for Robert and Cersei

** and it comes to my mind, that this is actually the life force a shadow baby is drawing from the body: Stannis literally lost a (male) heir to kill Renly

Edited by SirArthur

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
13 hours ago, Feather Crystal said:

I just don't see the whole ASOIAF series as being about only Jon when Daenerys is being setup as a Jesus-like Messiah coming from the east to kill all those resurrected dead. IMO leaving Dany out as the "fire" side would be a mistake.

:agree:

... and I really wouldn't be surprised if the ending [assuming its to be a clear one] requires the slaying of both Jon the King of Winter and Danaerys the Dragonlord

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Danaerys is being set up as the fire side.  Her enemy is going to be the ice side, and probably a character we know and it won't be Jon if J=R+L. 

The Others obviously are associated with ice, but also with death.  Bran and Arya are both associated with death as well.  I am not sure how that fits as no characters are associated with life. 

Dany might be set up as a messiah, but I think she and her dragons will prove to be more of a threat than salvation.  The mummers version is very clear about a side of good versus a side of evil, which is exactly the opposite of what I expect from GRRM. 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Ah the old heresy; that this isn't about Danaerys and her dragons saving Westeros from the Others, but the Others saving Westeros from the dragons

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

My take is both the Others and Dragons are ancient enemies but separate threats each capable of destroying Westerous alone or in their battle.  Jon is the prophesied hero born of both blood lines destined to defeat evil and set the world right.  But now Jon is dead and unJon isn't the same and becomes more of a threat himself. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Guest
This topic is now closed to further replies.

×