Jump to content
Black Crow

Heresy 210 and the Babes in the Wood

Recommended Posts

35 minutes ago, Brad Stark said:

My take is both the Others and Dragons are ancient enemies but separate threats each capable of destroying Westerous alone or in their battle.  Jon is the prophesied hero born of both blood lines destined to defeat evil and set the world right.  But now Jon is dead and unJon isn't the same and becomes more of a threat himself. 

While I can certainly see Jon becoming aligned with Winter, and the R+L=J theory promotes the idea of a combined blood-line, none of the prophesies require such a combination, indeed Mel's take on Azor Ahai is a hero who will destroy the other lot and bring in that endless fiery summer

Edited by Black Crow

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Not sure if this is the right place, but sometimes I wonder whether the story would have been better with only one threat - either the White Walkers or the dragons?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, alienarea said:

Not sure if this is the right place, but sometimes I wonder whether the story would have been better with only one threat - either the White Walkers or the dragons?

I think that's the point. We're initially led to believe that the threat comes from the big bad up north and that Azor Ahai will save us all. Instead, as the story goes on its turning out that it aint so simple as that.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 hours ago, alienarea said:

Not sure if this is the right place, but sometimes I wonder whether the story would have been better with only one threat - either the White Walkers or the dragons?

At the least, I think that Dany has been catastrophically mishandled, and that the story might have been better in her absence, or by having her arc unfold in a different fashion. From the outset, she is an incongruous element.

The first three books tell a relatively cohesive story, experienced from several viewpoints, with Dany as a weird outlier.

AGOT: Tensions escalate between the Starks and the Lannisters, and civil war looms with the death of King Robert; oh, and also, Dany meets the Dothraki.
ACOK: The War of the Five Kings begins in earnest; oh, and also, Dany fucks around in Qarth
ASOS: The War of the Five Kings approaches its climactic conclusion, with House Lannister's enemies scattered and broken; oh, and also, Dany frees the slaves

Things only get worse from there, as AFFC and ADWD are novels that are about nothing in particular, a meandering collection of individual character stories.

The issues of the early novels more obviously stem from the author putting Dany on a separate continent from everyone else, and perpetually failing to seize opportunities to bring her westward; on top of that, I increasingly feel that the current/middle arc of the series was ill-served by Tywin dying too soon--the author offed Tywin and Joffrey in the same novel where they 'win' the Wo5K, yet he had nothing waiting to fill that void in the over-arcing narrative.

Edited by Matthew.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
19 hours ago, alienarea said:

Not sure if this is the right place, but sometimes I wonder whether the story would have been better with only one threat - either the White Walkers or the dragons?

It depends perhaps on the nature of the threat.  Traditionally, one would expect a fantasy series to have a primary antagonist and a primary protagonist.  But knowing GRRM's basic philosophy, I wonder instead if George is highlighting that primary threat is the destructive nature of conflict.  If so, you maximize the destruction by creating multiple conflicts occurring throughout the realm.  I call it the Ragnarok theory of the books.  The Doom of the Gods occurs when multiple grudges and conflicts come to a head at once leading to the destruction of the realm, and leaving a few survivors to pick up the pieces and start anew.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, Frey family reunion said:

It depends perhaps on the nature of the threat.  Traditionally, one would expect a fantasy series to have a primary antagonist and a primary protagonist.  But knowing GRRM's basic philosophy, I wonder instead if George is highlighting that primary threat is the destructive nature of conflict.  If so, you maximize the destruction by creating multiple conflicts occurring throughout the realm.  I call it the Ragnarok theory of the books.  The Doom of the Gods occurs when multiple grudges and conflicts come to a head at once leading to the destruction of the realm, and leaving a few survivors to pick up the pieces and start anew.

That is all fair and well, but in the end this is neither an academic study nor a philosophical exchange. It was supposed to be a fantasy story with the purpose to entertain.

It still entertains, but mostly because GRRM piles story arc upon story arc and we argue again and again what it means and how it's going to end. Basically, it's an imitation of life. Or, as Shakespeare wrote in Macbeth: "It's a tale told by an idiot, full of sound and fury, signifying nothing."

I am angry at GRRM because I invested in a story that won't get completed, and there isn't any progress in years.

Maybe he should have wrapped up after ASoS, it ends bittersweet anyway.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, Frey family reunion said:

It depends perhaps on the nature of the threat.  Traditionally, one would expect a fantasy series to have a primary antagonist and a primary protagonist.  But knowing GRRM's basic philosophy, I wonder instead if George is highlighting that primary threat is the destructive nature of conflict.  If so, you maximize the destruction by creating multiple conflicts occurring throughout the realm.  I call it the Ragnarok theory of the books.  The Doom of the Gods occurs when multiple grudges and conflicts come to a head at once leading to the destruction of the realm, and leaving a few survivors to pick up the pieces and start anew.

I think that's a fair comment and its worth turning to the original synopsis:

Roughly speaking, there are three major conflicts set in motion in the chapters enclosed. These will form the major plot threads of the trilogy, intertwining with each other in what should be a complex but exciting (I hope) narrative tapestry. Each of the conflicts presents a major threat to the peace of my imaginary realm, the Seven Kingdoms, and to the lives of the principal characters.

 The first threat grows from the enmity between the great houses of Lannister and Stark as it plays out in a cycle of plot, counterplot, ambition, murder, and revenge, with the iron throne of the Seven Kingdoms as the ultimate prize. This will form the backbone of the first volume of the trilogy, A Game of Thrones.

 While the lion of Lannister and the direwolf of Stark snarl and scrap, however, a second and greater threat takes shape across the narrow sea, where the Dothraki horselords mass their barbarians hordes for a great invasion of the Seven Kingdoms, led by the fierce and beautiful Daenerys Stormborn, the last of the Targaryen dragonlords. The Dothraki invasion will be the central story of my second volume, A Dance with Dragons.

 The greatest danger of all, however, comes from the north, from the icy wastes beyond the Wall, where half-forgotten demons out of legend, the inhuman others, raise cold legions of the undead and the neverborn and prepare to ride down on the winds of winter to extinguish everything that we would call "life." The only thing that stands between the Seven Kingdoms and and endless night is the Wall, and a handful of men in black called the Night's Watch. Their story will be the heart of my third volume, The Winds of Winter. The final battle will also draw together characters and plot threads left from the first two books and resolve all in one huge climax.

Essentially what's outlined is what you describe as a "traditional" fantasy series, but having got it off the ground GRRM being GRRM is trying to write something different

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I don't claim to have knowledge of what makes a literary work "great", but I've gathered from others who are perhaps more educated in how to write, that you don't just add characters without purpose. Especially ones like Daenerys, who was introduced in book 1 and is still a POV in book 5, and not have a specific, important role in the story. She is most definitely the "fire" in the "song", and must be relevant to the ending, because the alternative would be that her story was a complete a waste of time.

The original synopsis has Daenerys coming to Westeros as the second major conflict. What is puzzling is why GRRM didn't place her arrival to Westeros at the end of Dance? Did he originally plan to have "fire" return to power before having "ice" return only to realize the order didn't work with his planned ending?

I have suggested many times over that there is a wheel of time at play, and that it is currently running history in reverse. Jon Snow's stabbing and expected resurrection seems to be a setup for a return of the Nights King. I theorize that the Nights King was an undead creature. When he was overthrown he was sealed into the well at the Nightfort and became the Black Gate. What would've happened if the Nights King hadn't been overthrown? 

Jon - as an undead Nights King - could defeat the current Lord of Winterfell, become the next King of Winter, and rule the north during the extended winter to come. Another Long Night is coming, so is Daenerys being setup as the savior? Would Westeros need to be saved from King Jon? This is why I wonder if the order of conflict has changed and the reason why Daenerys hasn't arrived is because Jon needs to be setup first as an undead King of Winter.

Edited by Feather Crystal

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 7/3/2018 at 1:36 PM, Black Crow said:

If you're just joining us the current discussion is anent what was really going on at what Prince Rhaegar [deceased] supposedly declared to be the Tower of Joy, but didn't stick around long enough to say whether he was talking about unicorns and rainbows or was using the term "joy" ironically, as one Tyrion Lannister was wont 

 

The complete list of things we know about the tower long fallen:

 

  1. Eddard Stark pulled it down himself after nearly dying in combat with Arthur Dayne
  2. It contained enough bloody stones to build 8 cairns
  3. It was said that Rhaegar called it the tower of joy ("tower of joy" is not a proper place name)
  4. Ned and Howland once rode away from it
  5. It represented a bitter memory for Ned and was in his dream

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
20 hours ago, Voice said:

 

The complete list of things we know about the tower long fallen:

 

  1. Eddard Stark pulled it down himself after nearly dying in combat with Arthur Dayne
  2. It contained enough bloody stones to build 8 cairns
  3. It was said that Rhaegar called it the tower of joy ("tower of joy" is not a proper place name)
  4. Ned and Howland once rode away from it
  5. It represented a bitter memory for Ned and was in his dream

And don't forget that it's where Lyanna routinely pleasured Rhaegar and his Kingsguard buddies.

Edited by Frey family reunion

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

While digging for more references to shadows I found some that might point towards the WW being the original Night's Watch.

We have BR telling Bran that darkness is key to the greenseers powers.

Quote

 "Never fear the darkness, Bran." The lord's words were accompanied by a faint rustling of wood and leaf, a slight twisting of his head. "The strongest trees are rooted in the dark places of the earth. Darkness will be your cloak, your shield, your mother's milk. Darkness will make you strong."

Before this we have Coldhands telling this to Bran:

Quote

Bran closed his eyes. It was too cold to talk, and they dare not light a fire. Coldhands had warned them against that. These woods are not as empty as you think, he had said. You cannot know what the light might summon from the darkness. The memory made him shiver, despite the warmth of Hodor beside him.

This combination of light and darkness seems to be a reference to the shadows. The WW are shadows and are said to only appear when its dark; they are warriors to be used during the night.

Then we have the "white shadow at his side" expression used to describe the Kingsguards and Ghost. With these GRRM seems to be linking "white shadows" with guardians.

If we combine these two we get that the white walkers are shadow guardians for the (long) night: a night's watch.

Edited by Tucu

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
9 hours ago, Tucu said:

While digging for more references to shadows I found some that might point towards the WW being the original Night's Watch.

We have BR telling Bran that darkness is key to the greenseers powers.

Before this we have Coldhands telling this to Bran:

This combination of light and darkness seems to be a reference to the shadows. The WW are shadows and are said to only appear when its dark; they are warriors to be used during the night.

Then we have the "white shadow at his side" expression used to describe the Kingsguards and Ghost. With these GRRM seems to be linking "white shadows" with guardians.

If we combine these two we get that the white walkers are shadow guardians for the (long) night: a night's watch.

Very much in line with what we've discussed in the past about the present Nights Watch with their castles not being the original lot, but I'd still emphasise that the Walkers are created, they are not a race and I still have the feeling that like the Nazgul they want what was once theirs, but lost in the transformation.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
5 hours ago, Black Crow said:

Very much in line with what we've discussed in the past about the present Nights Watch with their castles not being the original lot, but I'd still emphasise that the Walkers are created, they are not a race and I still have the feeling that like the Nazgul they want what was once theirs, but lost in the transformation.

At the moment I am leaning towards the WW being an emergent feature of the combination of the magical cold mist, light, darkness and the souls stored in the trees/land/water. They might not have much of a will or plan of their own, but they would be controllable. Similar to the id monster in Forbidden Planet.

The controller would be the LC figure. There is a theme of light and darkness in the symbols of the watch. The black clothes represent the darkness and their oath says that they are fire and light.

Quote

"I am the watcher on the walls. I am the fire that burns against the cold, the light that brings the dawn, the horn that wakes the sleepers. I am the shield that guards the realms of men."

The sleepers would be the shadows summoned by the LC.

The movements we have seen so far might have the purpose of putting a new greenseer and a new LC in place for the incoming long night.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
16 hours ago, Tucu said:

While digging for more references to shadows I found some that might point towards the WW being the original Night's Watch.

We have BR telling Bran that darkness is key to the greenseers powers.

Before this we have Coldhands telling this to Bran:

This combination of light and darkness seems to be a reference to the shadows. The WW are shadows and are said to only appear when its dark; they are warriors to be used during the night.

Then we have the "white shadow at his side" expression used to describe the Kingsguards and Ghost. With these GRRM seems to be linking "white shadows" with guardians.

If we combine these two we get that the white walkers are shadow guardians for the (long) night: a night's watch.

I agree that there does seem to be a hint of a connection between the "white shadows" of the Kingsguards and the "white shadows" of the White Walkers.  My personal suspicion is that the common connection is the  bedtime stories Old Nan told to Bran.

While not a terribly popular opinion, I have a nagging suspicion that Bran's introduction into the Weirnet, may be responsible for reaching back into time to create the White Walkers as they currently appear.

We learn early on that Bran likes two types of stories, scary stories about the Others of legend, and the tales of the gallant white knights of the Kingsguards.  So let's assume that Bran's consciousness fully integrates into the Weirwoods in the future.  And further his consciousness, is not constrained by time, so it's as if the Weirnet has always had Bran as part of its collective consciousness.  And assume for a moment, that it may be the weirnet acting through either human or COTF agents who is responsible for creating the White Walkers.  Perhaps Bran's consciousness acts as a template for this icy golem, combining his knowledge of the White Walkers as a northern boogeyman with his love of the white knights of the kingsguards.  These images are combined into the ice creatures that are armored in white and carry longswords.

Edited by Frey family reunion

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 hours ago, Frey family reunion said:

I agree that there does seem to be a hint of a connection between the "white shadows" of the Kingsguards and the "white shadows" of the White Walkers.  My personal suspicion is that the common connection is the  bedtime stories Old Nan told to Bran.

While not a terribly popular opinion, I have a nagging suspicion that Bran's introduction into the Weirnet, may be responsible for reaching back into time to create the White Walkers as they currently appear.

We learn early on that Bran likes two types of stories, scary stories about the Others of legend, and the tales of the gallant white knights of the Kingsguards.  So let's assume that Bran's consciousness fully integrates into the Weirwoods in the future.  And further his consciousness, is not constrained by time, so it's as if the Weirnet has always had Bran as part of its collective consciousness.  And assume for a moment, that it may be the weirnet acting through either human or COTF agents who is responsible for creating the White Walkers.  Perhaps Bran's consciousness acts as a template for this icy golem, combining his knowledge of the White Walkers as a northern boogeyman with his love of the white knights of the kingsguards.  These images are combined into the ice creatures that are armored in white and carry longswords.

I really like the idea of out of time Bran having his part on shaping the current WW. It puts a different spin on "Are you sure you stabbed an Other, and not some child's snow knight?"

Edited by Tucu

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

We see various elements associated with the WW, cold, winter, night and death.  Are all these connected features of the same side? 

It does seem odd the Nights watch wears black.  I know this has been discussed before, but most of that discussion centered on why they don't wear white.  If they are associated with fire and warmth, why not wear red? 

We have another force associated with death, the faceless men.  Has anyone considered their possible connections to the WW? 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
36 minutes ago, Brad Stark said:

We see various elements associated with the WW, cold, winter, night and death.  Are all these connected features of the same side? 

It does seem odd the Nights watch wears black.  I know this has been discussed before, but most of that discussion centered on why they don't wear white.  If they are associated with fire and warmth, why not wear red? 

We have another force associated with death, the faceless men.  Has anyone considered their possible connections to the WW? 

Not with the WW directly, but with the weirwoods.

We have the hall of faces in the House of Black and White being similar to the CoTF caves Arianne visits. We also have the link to darkness when they blind Arya to awaken her powers if we take a detour through Lorath (another of Valyria's spinoffs):

Quote

Their eunuch priests wore eyeless hoods in honor of their god; only in darkness, they believed, would their third eye open, allowing them to see the "higher truths" of creation that lay concealed behind the world's illusions

 

Edited by Tucu

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 7/3/2018 at 2:49 PM, Black Crow said:

I've always been suspicious of the whole Tower of Joy/R+L+J scenario. It seems too obvious and too easy, yet on the other hand out of character. There is certainly a huge question-mark over Jon Snow's true identity but in text it has always revolved around his mother. We are confident that she was Lyanna Stark, but Rhaegar doesn't fit, or rather the assumption that Jon Snow is a lost Targaryen prince isn't borne out by his physical appearance, character or story arc. 

Now something strange and interesting happened once upon a time in Dorne. and I agree that something involved decoys and switching of babies, but who and to what end?

Jon may be a king, but not necessarily a Targaryen one.

I would think that Jon's kingship derives from his Starkness, his northern blood. King in the North or King of Winter, that is Jon's destiny. Years ago I tied those hints to Rhaegar, and even after I dismissed that, I can see the possibilities that this is connected to Robert, who is the King at the start of our story, but I think it comes back to the north. Power of the north, magic of the north, blood of the north.

 

On 7/3/2018 at 4:15 PM, Feather Crystal said:

I think Jon mirrors Gilly’s son, Monster...a child of incest between a father and daughter, both at the Wall, but I’m not certain Lyanna is Gilly. Ned said Jon’s mother was Wylla, and Wylla kinda looks and sounds like a combo of “why” and “Lyanna”.

I am not sure about Jon mirroring Gilly's son, but he is certainly not turned off or repulsed by the concept of children born of incest. I think that is an important clue to Jon's character, and perhaps his parentage. If this father-daughter incest were the first thing that was presented in our story, I would think Lyanna/Rickard was the greatest possibility for Starkcest, but the incest we are introduced to is sibling incest, both in Dany's thoughts and then quickly in Jaime and Cersei's activities. Sibling incest is the driving force in the first novel, and that is why it seems likely to be important to Jon's parentage.

I agree whole heartedly that Wylla is a hint to us of Lyanna. Wylla and Lya have a similar vibe and cadence and if one investigates the name Lyanna, and Wylla, the letters are similar. Place the L in a different spot, flip the w could look like a double N, and it's a distorted version of each other, just as much of the story is a distorted echo of the past.

 

On 7/4/2018 at 11:41 AM, Frey family reunion said:

And of course the knee jerk assumption is that if there was a child rescued from the tower of joy, it had to have been Jon, because of his central place in the story.  That may or may not be correct.

There are an awful lot of characters in this story, some central some non-central but POV,  that are within one to two years of age with Jon.  Those children born around the time of the rebellion include: Jon, Meera, Sam, Brienne, Robb, Gendry, Young Griff, Quentyn, Loras, Margaery, Danaerys, and perhaps Val (although I'm not certain that her age is ever established)  Then we have other children unmet that seem to have also been born around the time frame, to include the green haired daughter of the Archon of Tyrosh, and Allyria Dayne.  

Out of all of these characters, the only one who's parentage we can be certain of is Robb's, since we're given the POV of Catelyn.  The rest to various degrees aren't firmly established.  The one's I'm most suspicious of, other than Jon, are Gendry, Meera, and Brienne.  Gendry is an obvious question mark, other than the fact that his father is most probably Robert Baratheon.  Brienne's mother is never named, and while Meera's mother is named in an appendix, I find the name Jyanna a tad suspicious.  Of course there is Young Griff, although I think he may be a bit of a red herring.  Any of those characters could have been present at the tower of joy in lieu or in addition to Jon.  We still don't know why House Dayne named their heir after Eddard.  After all, Eddard, or his older brother, allegedly disgraced Ashara and killed the famed Arthur.  It could of course be possible that the child Eddard rescued from the tower was Ashara's.

So much theorizing in the story is built around Jon being the child in the tower of joy, but I am not sold on any child being in the tower of joy. If there was a child, I would be shocked if it was Jon or Dany. I am not sure Dany was born yet, and Jon being that child seems like a red herring. I think that child was Elia and Rhaegar's son Aegon, and I have come to think that baby Aegon is Samwell Tarly. Sam's story hints to me of Rhaegar more and more all the time.  A boy who prefers books and songs to warfare but who can be taught to fight with the correct encouragement. Sam with his mysteriously "pale" eyes and no hair color description. Sam who was most comfortable sleeping with his sister's. Sam who shoved a burning brand into the mouth of a wighted Small Paul but never seems to be burned. Sam who bonds so much with Maester Aemon and learns so much of imporance from the Targaryen maester. Sam who is defended at Castle Black by Jon, Grenn and Pyp, who all have some parallel's to Arthur Dayne, Gerold Hightower, and Oswell Whent.  A great swordsman for Jon and Dayne, a large man hinted with a Bull for Hightower and an Aurocks for Grenn, and bat wings for Whent and large ears for Pyp. I have a hard time looking away from Sam as the same person who was protected at the toj and in AGOT-Jon IV. (This could also hint at Dayne as Jon's father).

I think whatever happened to earn Ned Stark the esteem of House Dayne happened later, at Starfall.

And yes, GRRM has given us many children of a similar age to confound our best attempts of solving this mystery.

 

On 7/4/2018 at 11:41 AM, Frey family reunion said:

The idea that Jon may have been conceived during the time when Brandon was still alive does intrigue me quite a bit, because I'm becoming more and more convinced that the secret shame that Eddard keeps even from his wife, is that Jon was born of incest between Brandon and Lyanna.

After all, Jon does appear to be the starkiest Stark around.

Ha! Jon is a starky Stark. More of the north in him than his half-brothers, seems to imply both his parents come from the north, if not both being of Stark blood. Mance is of the north, as well as the Stark's. I don't discount Roose Bolton, Roose the raper, if we could link him to having raped Lyanna.

I think all three Stark brother's are legit candidates for being Lyanna's baby daddy. The timeline is the biggest question mark when it comes to Brandon, and how old Jon turns out to be will be very important. There are hints at Brandon and Benjen both. While there are many things that hint at the behavior of "wolf blooded" Stark's, Jon doesn't really show much of this wolf blood. He is thoughtful and rarely brash; Brandon might be thoughtful, but we are not presented with that, only his brash and lustful behavior. This is isn't Jon. Jon has the quiet wolf Ghost, much like Eddard is called the Quiet Wolf. Jon is so like Ned it's almost like a mirror image. And Benjen has those moments of ruffling Jon's hair and giving Jon fatherly advice. If Starkcest doesn't turn out to be the answer, I will honestly be very surprised, and think GRRM could have missed a great opportunity in story telling. Rickard I am less sold on as Jon's father, merely because we are not presented with father-daughter incest in Game. Still, Jon dreaming of his father's face melting hints at Rickard, who was burned, but also Brandon, who's statue is scorched by Maester Luwin's torch in the crypts near the end of Clash.

 

On 7/4/2018 at 7:49 PM, Frey family reunion said:

Jon on the other hand, may be a return to the bloodlines of the Starks of old, back in the days when they were Kings of Winter.  Presumably, if this bloodline was diluted over the years, it  might still exist as a recessive trait of the Starks, kept alive because of paternal lineages and the occasional marriages to first cousins, but never reemerging as a dominant trait.  However, if this recessive bloodline was inherited by both Lyanna and Brandon, and if indeed they conceived Jon through a bout of "wolf blood", for the first time in many years, this special bloodline may have reemerged in Jon.

There was a clever connection made by some of the posters many years back, that Lyanna's disappearance may have coincided with the end of the "False Spring" and a return of winter.  The posters likened the abduction of Lyanna by Rhaegar with the abduction of Persephone by Hades, the Greek tale that attempts to explain winter as the season where Persephone was trapped in Hades, and her mother Demeter's despair caused her to forsake her duties as the goddess of agriculture.  

But what if there is an additional explanation of the connection between Lyanna's disappearance and the surprising return of winter?  An explanation that harkens back to the homegrown mythology of this story?  What if winter returned because Brandon and Lyanna's conception of Jon brought about the return of the pure bloodline of the Kings of Winter?  And Lyanna's disappearance may be the result of her running away, because she was raped and impregnated, not by Rhaegar, but her brother Brandon?

I think this works for all of the Stark brother's at Harrenhal, although people might think Benjen to young to be the culprit. I do not. Rickard was not at Harrenhal, so I think this counts him out. Brandon seems almost to obvious to me, him and his wolf blood and maiden's blood and extreme temper and sword/cock imagery. Benjen and Ned seem like more subtle candidates for upsetting the balance of summer and winter at Harrenhal with their sister. Benjen reminds us he was Jon's age of 14 when he first was drunk on summerwine and Ned also recalls the "warm days, cool nights and sweet taste of wine" at Harrenhal. Robert tells us in Ned's first POV how summerwine can lead to women taking their cloths off and other naked lustful activities. Ned doesn't dispute this information.

Everything you discuss in relation to special blood lines leading to a King of Winter seems so spot on. That is Jon! Not Bran, who has the warm Tully blood in his veins, but Jon, who has "more of the north" in him than his brothers.

It makes perfect sense to me that a Stark/Stark relationship at Harrenhal actually brought back winter and delayed the spring. I think this is what GRRM has been hinting at for so very long.

 

On 7/5/2018 at 12:41 AM, Black Crow said:

Something I wonder about is whether the Targaryens are intrusive and that in terms of balance we should be looking at the Starks and the Daynes as the original champions of not Ice and Fire but Winter and Summer and that its the Targaryens and their dragons who upset the balance.

I think this might turn out to be spot on, and is another reason to suspect, that while Dany might be fire, her fire might not come just Targaryen blood. What if Dany actually resulted from two parents of Dayne blood? Or the Dayne/Targ combination that many have suspected for years.

 

On 7/5/2018 at 7:03 AM, Feather Crystal said:

I do go back and forth between Brandon and Lyanna and Mance and Lyanna as Jon's parents, because while I do believe Jon is the Bastard O'Winterfell who's father is Bael, but I also believe in the inversions. If the She-Wolves of Winterfell ever gets released, I suspect that the ailing Lord of Winterfell with no heir will end up sleeping with one of his daughters to produce an heir and then blame Bael the Bard in order to conceal the incest. 

I have wondered if the key part of the Bael Tale that we are missing is that the Stark maid might have had a missing bastard brother in the mix. This could be Bael himself, or it could be some other Stark sperm donor. Otherwise, I agree completely that we will find that the father of the Stark maids child was her own father. In Clash and Storm the father/daughter incest element is strong, but no in Game, In Game, it's sibling incest, and GRRM has said (I think, anyway) that we can figure out Jon's parentage from clues in the first novel. That is is why I lean toward incest of a sibling variety and not parental.

I do like your work with the inversions, but I am not sure how specific they go. I think the inversions in the story are more loose than specific and down to multiple details. Time will tell, of course...

 

On 7/5/2018 at 7:03 AM, Feather Crystal said:

I still suspect that Lem Lemoncloak is one of the missing Kingsguard. The hints point to Arthur Dayne, because of his philanthropic work with the commoners and because of this magic sword business, but his physical description sounds more like Gerold Hightower.

and

On 7/6/2018 at 8:39 AM, Feather Crystal said:

I think all of you here know by now my belief that the titled chapters are parallel inversion chapters, and in The Queenmaker I had pointed to Gerold Dayne (Darkstar) as being a combination of Gerold Hightower and Arthur Dayne. Along with the "pissing" symbolism I had also pointed out the references to lemon water, and connected both to Lem Lemoncloak. If you know of any "pissing" passages that directly link to Arthur Dayne I'd be very interested!

I think if Lem turns out to be a former kingsguard, he is Lewyn Martell.  Lem and Lew, flip than M and you have a W. LeM and LM (Lewyn Martell), Lem talks of wanting his wife and daughter back and Lewyn was reported to have a paramour (I think there could have been a child too, but its only speculation). Lemon's are associated with Lem's yellow cloak and lemons are strongly associated with Dorne. Lem's cloak is considered piss yellow or lemon yellow, and we do have Tansy hinting to us that Lem's cloak was once white. I think that Lewyn probably washed down the Trident and washed up at the Quiet Isle, and later tried to reclaim his wife and child only to find them killed, perhaps in the sack of Kings Landing. Lem has no love for the Lannister's, and shows quite a bit of politeness to Arya, almost gentlemanly behavior and protectiveness, as well as wanting the member's of the brotherhood to speak gently around her. It's only after Lem has claimed the Hounds helm that was see a change for the worse in him. I swear that helm is poisoned! We don't get much of a description of Lem physically, but it's possible he could hail from Dorne. We don't know what Lewyn looked like, or even how old he might have been.

Jaime does associate pissing with one hand with SAD, but there are several pissing hints in the story. Jon pisses often, so if Arthur turns out to be Jon's father, it would not really surprise me. However, I wonder if pissing doesn't have to to with kingsguard in general, or night's watch brothers. Lot's of talk of pissing with the white and black cloaked brothers of the story. Something to do with pissing on vows...

 

On 7/5/2018 at 9:48 AM, Frey family reunion said:

If there is a parallel to House Stark and Winterfell in the South, I'm more inclined to look at House Gardener and Highgarden.  It appears that these may have been the two oldest lineages of First Men families in Westeros (with the possible exception of House Durrandon and Storm's End).  If so, then yes, perhaps the balance was upset when House Gardener was wiped out by the Targaryens on the Field of Fire. 

House Gardner has strong ties to Garth Greenhand, as they are said to descend from Garth the Gardner, Garth Greenhands eldest son, and Garth Greenhand is probably who House Stark descents from, as well, from Brandon of the Bloody Blade. I do wonder if we might still have a person with some House Gardner blood in our story, and I speculate it could be Marwyn the Mage. Garth Greenhand and Garth the Gardner have much green man imagery about them, and in pagan religion, the green man is often described or pictured with the image of a man's face peering out of dense foliage and some may have leaves for hair, perhaps with a leafy beard and often leaves or leafy shoots are shown growing from his open mouth and sometimes even from the nose and eyes as well. Marwyn is described as having white hair coming out of his nose and ears. It's not much but I think it's a subtle nod to green man imagery that calls to the Garth's of the reach and ties to Marwyn.

 

On 7/6/2018 at 7:55 AM, Brad Stark said:

My theory has been that Dayne, Targaryen and Stark families all came from elsewhere, probably Asshai.

I agree that House Stark has some connection to coming from Asshai. The Stark's have that round tower with gargoyles, which hints to me of them having a dragon past, and dragon's are associated with Asshai. In Game, Dany also describes people from Asshai as being dark and solemn. Solemn is almost a key description for several of the Stark's in our story, and while Dany's "dark" is vague, it could be dark hair, which is a Stark trait that Ned, Jon and Arya share, and Jon is described as being dark to Robb's fair. This "dark"hint is also pretty vague, but I do think it hints of Asshai and the Stark's.

 

On 7/6/2018 at 8:09 AM, Frey family reunion said:

Yet, even the Targaryen family tree in the World Book has four notable princesses where we are given no information as to what family they were later married into.

I have some speculation that we are missing a Stark/Targaryen marriage in the past. My guess is that it was Aerea Targaryen, daughter of Rhaena and Aegon. It would fit the time frame that is missing from the Stark lineage in the world book and Aerea is just a different way to spell Arya, and perhaps Arya Flint was named in honor of Aerea. Again, speculation and no proof, but this is one of the only reasons I am looking forward to Fire and Blood this fall.

 

On 7/6/2018 at 2:21 PM, Black Crow said:

Jon as Lord Eddard's son by Ashara Dayne makes a lot of sense, but is, I suspect too straightforward. If Jon sprang from a relationship severed by Lord Eddard in the name of duty and ended decisively by Ashara Dayne's suicide, then there is no mystery and no need for a mystery.

Ned/Ashara does seem a bit too straight forward, that is why if we have Stark/Dayne combo for Jon, it would be more subtle if it was Arthur and Lyanna. And tie Jon to "his father's sword", which could then nicely apply to Dawn instead of Ice. 

 

On 7/7/2018 at 8:02 AM, Black Crow said:

Ah the old heresy; that this isn't about Danaerys and her dragons saving Westeros from the Others, but the Others saving Westeros from the dragons

This idea always makes me feel warm and fuzzy, and I can't explain the odd reaction but I would not mind this outcome at all.

 

I normally only look at these Heresy threads after they have been closed, but this time around, I decided to jump right in and post a bit. Sorry my post was so long, but I find these idea's to be very stimulating.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

We've discussed Robert as Jon's father, but I just don't see it.  There isn't much evidence in the text, and the two seem to be as far apart personality wise as possible.  I picture Rhaegar as very much like Jon, although we never got his POV, and very few POVs from characters who knew him directly, so his personality could be anything.

Wylla kinda looks and sounds like a combo of “why” and “Lyanna”, but we know Wylla is a 'real' person and Edric Dayne's wetnurse, not people speaking in code about Jon's mother.  Of course GRRM could have picked the name as a hint, but I'd assume authors go out of their way to avoid readers making that sort of inference.  I will never know why JRRT chose to name a character 'Saruman' and then try to surprise us that he is on Sauron's side.

Sam having no hair color description IMO rules out any possibility of him having an unusual hair color.  How lame would it be if GRRM tried to surprise us that Sam had Rhaegar's flowing silver and gold locks and no one noticed?  Sam is a tribute to Samwise Gamgee and as close a character to GRRM being in his own novels as we can get.  He might be important or do great things, but it would completely defeat his character building if he had a special bloodline or other 'God-given' abilities.  GRRM isn't going to write himself into his own novels as superman to come save the day.

I'd love to see more speculation on the connection between House Dayne and Starfall, this hasn't been discussed much.  The only fact we are certain of is Ned played a part in Arthur's death, and that certainly doesn't explain why these houses would be close friends.  I keep coming back to how much GRRM mentions children playing in the water gardens and feel at least one of our children the right age had to be there.

Lyanna was described as having more of the North than Ned, which explains this in Jon if she was his mother, regardless of Jon's father.

I've said it before, but we've seen lots of speculation on Jon's parents' identity - so much so I doubt anyone can come up with anything that is both new and plausible.  But no one else has speculated on why it is important - and we know it is important.  If Jon's parents were both Starks, we've had that happen before and it doesn't make Jon special.  A Targaryen or Dayne would be the first time intermarrying with House Stark.  It is semi-cannon, but we had "The Pact of Ice and Fire" which promised a Targaryen princess to House Stark, and are told that never happened.  To me, this is hinting about something special from both these blood lines coming together.  House Targaryen is the only bloodline we've seen definite proof of having magical powers.

I don't mind jumping around.  I'd like to see us touch on new ideas, and that has been happening less and less.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Bael the Bard was a King Beyond the Wall. According to legend, he impregnated the daughter of Lord Brandon Stark. It would be a reversal, an inversion if you will, if Brandon Stark impregnated his sister, Lyanna before Bael could. Just a theory - anyone with the name Bael could have a layered meaning. I'd also like to point out that names with "ae" in them tend to be Targaryen names.

There are several Targaryens and non-Targaryens with Bael in their names, but I think it does mean something different when the name ends in "or" or "on". 

Added "or" = introducing a synonym or alternative

Baelor the Blessed - known for forging a peace with Dorne

Baelor Breakspear - mother was Dornish

Added "on" = physically in contact

Baelon son of Aerys

Baelon son of Jaehaerys

Baelon son of Viserys

Non-Targaryen Bael's with the "or" synonym/alternative:

Baelor Hightower aka Baelor Brightsmile and Baelor Breakwind

Baelor Blacktyde

The anagram:

Abel (Mance) - dressed and acted like Bael when he snuck into Winterfell disguised as a singer - and he changed the words to the Fisherman's Daughter to tasting a northman's daughter.

Added "ish" to make it like, related to, of, or being

Petyr Baelish - acted like Bael in that he helped Sansa escape Kings Landing

Rhaegar is credited with (blamed for) kidnapping Lyanna, so he acted like Bael. Rhaegar was also known to sing and pay instruments like Bael. Was he guilty of the kidnapping or was he set up to be blamed like Bael? The wildling singer in the original Bael the Bard tale could have just been a cover story for incest. Lord Brandon likely fathered his daughter's child. Bael was a convenient scapegoat, like Marillion, who was definitely set up when Petyr Baelish blamed the singer for killing Lysa. 

Circling back to this "ae" business with the Targaryen names. Is this a deliberate setup to connect a Targaryen with a Bael? Both of the Baelors - the ones with the "or" at the end to signify that they are a synonyms of Bael - have connections to Dorne. Baelor the Blessed forged a treaty with Dorne, while Baelor Breakspear's mother was a Dornish Princess. Rhaegar is also connected to Dorne through Elia, his princess wife. To me this looks like a deliberate dotted line to connect Rhaegar to Bael. 

Edited by Feather Crystal

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Guest
This topic is now closed to further replies.

×