Heresy 210 and the Babes in the Wood

[Melifeather]

5 hours ago, Frey family reunion said:

I don’t want to keep going round and round on this, but “dishonored” = pregnant,  especially when its followed up with info that her baby is stillborn.  You may take issue with Barristan saying she killed herself “soon after” the death of her baby, and perhaps Barristan is confused about the events (it wouldn’t be the first time) but that’s clearly his impression of what happened.  

In so much that we have to rely on the memory of unreliable narrators regarding all past events in the story, there is “evidence” that Ashara got pregnant at Harrenhal.  Now you may choose to disbelieve said “evidence” but it appears to me that we have to at least consider the possibility that Ashara was impregnated at the time of Harrenhal.

I agree that GRRM meant for these clues to be deliberate to make us wonder if Ashara is Jon's mother, so the timeline must be very close.

 

2 hours ago, JNR said:

This requires all of them to be flatly ignorant of the timeline.  They might be, I suppose, but we certainly know better.

For instance, we know factually that Jaime was 15 when he joined the KG at Harrenhal:

But Jaime was 17 when he killed Aerys in the Sack:

This tells us roughly two years went by between these two events.  

And more months than that would have gone by as Ned rode ~1200 miles to Storm's End and then to Starfall to return Dawn.

If you don't like the canon, you can wander over into the World book (not a thing I would normally recommend) which states quite plainly that Harrenhal happened in 281, and the war ended at some unknown point in 283.  Once again, we see roughly two years went by.

It's a popular illusion that Harrenhal was immediately followed by the Rebellion, but an illusion is all it's ever been.  There was a gap of months, and odds are, quite a few months.

But even if these two events weren't separated by months, it would still be impossible for Ashara to conceive a child at Harrenhal and bear that child near, or after, the end of Rebellion. 

Because the Rebellion was close to a year long:

Harrenhal simply did not happen three months after the war began; it's a kooky idea.

Now, if the idea is that Ned knocked up Ashara, that is possible.. for instance, she may have attended Ned's wedding, which appears to have been about 3-4 months into the Rebellion.   We can't rule it out.

 What we can rule out is that any child conceived at Harrenhal is either Jon or the child Selmy has in mind (that was born shortly before Ashara disappeared/killed herself).  The timeline flat-out dismisses it as an option, unless we think a woman somehow managed gestation period of roughly two years.

 

I'm hesitant to accept the timeline provided in the wiki and the World Book for placing Lyanna's abduction a whole year after Harrenhal, because it's the unreliable reporting of Maester Yandel and two very well-known fans. But, If we do accept their timeline, and accept that Ashara's dishonoring occurred during the 10-days of Harrenhal, then it seems unlikely that she'd be Jon's mom, because it would make Jon nearly a whole year older than Robb. However, Jon is described as having a lean build, while Robb is said to have a stocky build. Their physical descriptions are deliberate in order to conceal Jon's true age, so its the timing of Lyanna's abduction that is the key to solving this mystery.

My best guess is Jon is likely 10 months older than Robb. If Catelyn brought Robb to Winterfell when he was 3 months old, his stockiness could have looked of an age with a lean 13-month old baby Jon. I have to insert my own real life experience here. My eldest daughter was a plump 20 lbs at 3 months of age and maintained that same weight until she was 12 months old. She grew taller of course, but apparently she grew faster than she could fill out - so I find it completely plausible that Robb and Jon could have looked close in age if they weighed about the same.

Robb's name-day was said to be a few months before the end of Robert's Rebellion. For the sake of example, lets just say the Rebellion ended December 283. That would make Robb's name-day around September 283 - conception November 282. (Full term is actually 40 weeks, so I have no idea why people always insist pregnancy lasts 9 months when its closer to 10.)

If Jon is 10 months older than Robb, then his birth would be more like October 282, with conception December 281. If Harrenhal was at the end of 281 then we're only talking maybe 1-2 months between when Ashara and Lyanna could have been potentially impregnated.

 

 

[SirArthur]

8 minutes ago, Feather Crystal said:

I agree that GRRM meant for these clues to be deliberate to make us wonder if Ashara is Jon's mother, so the timeline must be very close.

 

 

I'm hesitant to accept the timeline provided in the wiki and the World Book for placing Lyanna's abduction a whole year after Harrenhal, because it's the unreliable reporting of Maester Yandel and two very well-known fans. But, If we do accept their timeline, and accept that Ashara's dishonoring occurred during the 10-days of Harrenhal, then it seems unlikely that she'd be Jon's mom, because it would make Jon nearly a whole year older than Robb. However, Jon is described as having a lean build, while Robb is said to have a stocky build. Their physical descriptions are deliberate in order to conceal Jon's true age, so its the timing of Lyanna's abduction that is the key to solving this mystery.

My best guess is Jon is likely 9 months older than Robb. If Catelyn brought Robb to Winterfell when he was 3-5 months old, his stockiness could have looked of an age with a lean-12-14 month old baby Jon. I have to insert my own real life experience here. My eldest daughter was a plump 20 lbs at 3 months of age and maintained that same weight until she was 12 months old. She grew taller of course, but apparently she grew faster than she could fill out - so I find it completely plausible that Robb and Jon could have looked close in age if they weighed about the same.

Robb's name-day was said to be a few months before the end of Robert's Rebellion. For the sake of example, lets just say the Rebellion ended December 283. That would make Robb's name-day around September 283 - conception November 282. (Full term is actually 40 weeks, so I have no idea why people always insist pregnancy lasts 9 months when its closer to 10.)

If Jon is 9 months older than Robb, then his birth would be more like December 282, with conception February 282. If Harrenhal was at the end of 281 then we're only talking maybe 2 months between when Ashara and Lyanna could have been potentially impregnated.

 

 

The could have been look is exactly the problem with Jon. As JNR has mentioned elsewhere, a concealment of Jon in the north would have required knowledge how he looks like, when he gets older. 

The cover up story of Jon is not there to hide specific spottable features. In that case Essos would be a better place. 

Or at least Ned is an idiot or a very lucky man, if Jon turned out to look exactly like he wanted him to look.

[Melifeather]

27 minutes ago, Feather Crystal said:

Robb's name-day was said to be a few months before the end of Robert's Rebellion. For the sake of example, lets just say the Rebellion ended December 283. That would make Robb's name-day around September 283 - conception November 282. (Full term is actually 40 weeks, so I have no idea why people always insist pregnancy lasts 9 months when its closer to 10.)

If Jon is 10 months older than Robb, then his birth would be more like October 282, with conception December 281. If Harrenhal was at the end of 281 then we're only talking maybe 1-2 months between when Ashara and Lyanna could have been potentially impregnated.

If Jon was born a few weeks before Robb's conception, then his timing of conception and birthday would fit both the Harrenhal Tourney and the Fisherman's Daughter if the tourney occurred December 281. Having 281 be called the Year of the False Spring makes people think the tourney occurred in the early part of 281, but think about this - it's called the Year of the False Spring, because it lasted a year with winter returning at the end of it. Lyanna's abduction coincided with a return to winter, so I don't think I'm out of line in thinking the tourney occurred close to the end of December.

[Melifeather]

13 minutes ago, SirArthur said:

The could have been look is exactly the problem with Jon. As JNR has mentioned elsewhere, a concealment of Jon in the north would have required knowledge how he looks like, when he gets older. 

The cover up story of Jon is not there to hide specific spottable features. In that case Essos would be a better place. 

Or at least Ned is an idiot or a very lucky man, if Jon turned out to look exactly like he wanted him to look.

I revised this post after you snagged it and changed the difference in age to nearly 10 months between Jon and Robb.

Jon wasn't concealed. He was already living at Winterfell by the time Catelyn brought Robb home. That's why people assumed his mother was Ashara, because the timeline of the tourney matched up with the age of the child Wylla raised at Winterfell.

I don't believe Ashara is Jon's mom. I'm just saying the people living in and around Winterfell saw a baby arrive old enough to have been conceived at Harrenhal.

[Matthew.]

7 hours ago, Frey family reunion said:

You may take issue with Barristan saying she killed herself “soon after” the death of her baby, and perhaps Barristan is confused about the events (it wouldn’t be the first time) but that’s clearly his impression of what happened.  

I agree, and as you said earlier, "soon after" is hardly a specific unit of time (IMO, in the context of grief over the loss of a child, it could be reasonably applied to weeks, even months) so it's unclear how strictly we should read that in attempting to establish a timeline between the supposed stillbirth and Ashara's death--furthermore, we have no idea whether or not "soon after" is purely Barristan's conjecture. For example, Barristan may have heard rumors of a stillbirth (with no particular date attached) and rumors of her death, and correlated the two - in both causation and proximity in time - on his own.
 

2 hours ago, Feather Crystal said:

But, If we do accept their timeline, and accept that Ashara's dishonoring occurred during the 10-days of Harrenhal, then it seems unlikely that she'd be Jon's mom, because it would make Jon nearly a whole year older than Robb. 

Even if Jon were as much as a year older, I think prior posts have made a reasonable case as to why everyone involved would be willing to look the other way--best to avoid even the slightest danger of a messy inheritance dispute.

Nonetheless, besides potential timeline issues, I think another issue with Eddard and Ashara as Jon's parents is that the secrecy that is being maintained by both Eddard and Starfall (Edric Dayne, for example, has been raised to believe that Wylla is Jon's mother) seems, under those circumstances, peculiar.


As Harwin says, Eddard and Ashara were not pledged to anyone else, noble bastards are not that rare, and Dorne seems particularly open-minded about sexual relationships--so if Ashara is Jon's mother, is everyone lying to protect her reputation, even though the rumors are swirling anyway, and the truth isn't really that damaging to her reputation in the first place? Perhaps, but I think Ashara's prospects as Jon's mother are lower than Wylla and Lyanna.
 

1 hour ago, SirArthur said:

...a concealment of Jon in the north would have required knowledge how he looks like, when he gets older. 

Why?

This seems to assume that concealment - Jon's protection - is the only factor in play, but I don't feel that's entirely true to Eddard's characterization. For one thing, we don't know what exactly it was that Eddard promised Lyanna on her deathbed, and the extent to which that may have tied his hands, or put him in an uncomfortable, even dangerous position that he felt obligated to fulfill. 

For another, I personally read Eddard as a character who would have wanted to raise Lyanna's son (in a scenario where that's the case) in Winterfell, and would be willing to accept the consequences of that act--rather than leaving Lyanna's son to be raised by strangers in Starfall, or in Essos, or wherever; even when such an act potentially endangers both Jon, and Eddard himself. 

To me, this very much seems like a "I'll cross that bridge when I get to it" type of problem, if the scenario we're supposing is a young Eddard, fresh from the loss of the sister he loved, deciding what to do with said sister's son. 

Put another way, this is a line of criticism that seems to emphasize how Jon should have "logically" been protected (eg, accounting for all future variables), without also acknowledging the extent to which emotion, love, loss, and oath may also have been driving Eddard's decisions at that point in time. 

[Melifeather]

After working out my proposed timeline, the rumors surrounding Ashara make more sense. The Tourney of Harrenhall must be the time of conception, and makes Jon 9-10 months older than Robb. I think Catelyn knew Jon was older, otherwise the servants at Winterfell wouldn't have gossiped about Ashara being Jon's mother, and Catelyn wouldn't have asked Ned about Ashara, AND Maester Luwin wouldn't have tried to comfort Catelyn with the lie that "bastards grow up faster" than legitimate, natural children. 

If Jon's conception is tied to Harrenhal it strengthens the argument for Ashara as being Jon's mother for more than a few reasons. 

1) It's explains how Ashara was dishonored

2) It explains why Cersei would blame Ned for Ashara's suicide

3) It explains Barristan's memories of how Ashara "turned to Stark". I will point out that Barristan was comparing himself to Rhaegar. He said if he won the tourney rather than Rhaegar - then Ashara wouldn't have turned to "Stark" - presumably for comfort. Brandon or Ned was a rebound fling, because Rhaegar crowned Lyanna QoLaB, meaning Ashara was disappointed that Rhaegar chose Lyanna over herself. It seems to me that Ashara thought she had some kind of thing going on with Rhaegar.

If Ashara is Jon's mother, then it's possible Lyanna was never pregnant at all. I believe Arya is retracing Lyanna's trip through the Riverlands, and because Arya never got pregnant, much less raped, then Lyanna probably didn't either. I also believe that Myrcella's escape from Sunspear with Ser Arys is a mirrored repeat of Lyanna's abduction, including taking a sword wound - which would explain why Ned wanted Arya to take sword lessons in the first place.

If Ashara is Jon's mother, then she was the identity of the Fisherman's Daughter. GRRM meant for Ashara and Lyanna to seem like sisters, and they both had escapes similar to Sansa and Arya. Somehow their "routes" and "fates" traded places though. Recall that Arya went on to Braavos, and Sansa is currently in the Vale. Arya stopped short of the Vale, before Sandor changed their course and they ended up going to Riverrun. Sandor knocked Arya out to prevent her from going inside Riverrun. I can see this being a repeat of Arthur knocking Lyanna out to prevent her from showing up at Brandon's wedding. Brandon and Rickard's deaths afterward are mirrored by the Red Wedding.

The Vale and Riverrun are associated with Ned's steps too prior to joining the Rebellion. He left the Vale, crossed the Bite to White Harbor, went to Winterfell to call his banners, then went to Riverrun to marry Catelyn before joining Robert near the Trident.

Somebody died either short of Riverrun or later near Saltpans where Arya left Sandor to die, and the other crossed the Narrow Sea to Braavos. If Lyanna died, then Ashara must have taken the trip across the sea like Arya. Either that or Ashara is buried in Lyanna's tomb and Lyanna went across the Narrow Sea.

Because I'm all about the inversions I like the idea of Lyanna dying and Arthur living as being the reverse of Arya living and Sandor dying. Arthur is alive in disguise much like some readers think Sandor is the gravedigger, but the gravedigger is just a symbolic clue that Arthur isn't really dead. 

 

[Melifeather]

Sorry - I'm on a roll....

The pleading that Ned remembers is a combo of Ashara and Lyanna. Pleading, because Ned kept Ashara's child similar to how Jon kept Gilly's child at the Wall, but also Lyanna's pleading that Ned not tell Robert that Rhaegar wasn't responsible for her abduction, because she feared it would delegitimize Robert's claim to the throne. Recall that Ned nearly told Robert Lyanna's secret:
 

Quote

 

“You were not there,” Ned said, bitterness in his voice. Troubled sleep was no stranger to him. He had lived his lies for fourteen years, yet they still haunted him at night. 

  “There was no honor in that conquest.”

  “The Others take your honor!” Robert swore. “What did any Targaryen ever know of honor? Go down into your crypt and ask Lyanna about the dragon’s honor!”

  “You avenged Lyanna at the Trident,” Ned said, halting beside the king. Promise me, Ned, she had whispered.

 

 

 

Note that immediately after saying to Robert, "You avenged Lyanna at the Trident." that Ned thinks of Lyanna's promise. This indicates that Lyanna's promise has something to do with Robert avenging her death. If Rhaegar kidnapped her, where is Ned's discomfort coming from? IMO this is confirmation that Rhaegar did not kidnap Lyanna, but she wanted Robert to believe the lie. Why would she want Robert to believe the lie? She didn't want any doubt cast upon the legitimacy of his claim.

 

[Brad Stark]

Ashara as Jon's mother gives a good story to have Jon emerge as the next Sword of the Morning, which we otherwise don't have a good candidate. 

[Melifeather]

Just now, Brad Stark said:

Ashara as Jon's mother gives a good story to have Jon emerge as the next Sword of the Morning, which we otherwise don't have a good candidate. 

Interesting twist to have the Sword of the Morning come from the female Dayne rather than the male, because I have no doubt his father is a Stark.

[Brad Stark]

Jon is either Lyanna's son or a Stark is the father.  

[Frey family reunion]

7 minutes ago, Brad Stark said:

Jon is either Lyanna's son or a Stark is the father.  

Or both could be true 

[St Daga]

On 7/16/2018 at 5:05 PM, Frey family reunion said:

I agree that there was probably no child within the tower per se, as I believe the "tower" to be more a furnace with a chimney as opposed to a honeymoon suite or a nursery.  But my gut feeling is that there was at least one child and a wet nurse present in the vicinity, close enough that Stark and his fellowship had to go through the remaining Kingsguard to retrieve them.  After all if you tease the tower to be of some significance, like Lyanna's honeymoon suite/maternity ward, and you pull a misdirect, the misdirect better be of some significance to the overall plot.

For Eddard to personally travel there only with his close confidants implies that there was something there that needed to be close to vest.  So yes, if Lyanna had given birth to Jon via Rhaegar that would be a possibility.  But it seems to me that there are other possibilities as well.  There is a strong indication that Ashara Dayne was with child around this time period as well.  Considering Eddard's apparent relationship with Ashara, it wouldn't be out of the question that Ashara's child may have been the subject of a sacrifice at the tower, or Ashara was acting as a wet nurse to a potential child sacrifice at the tower, perhaps Rhaegar's son, the Prince that was Promised, or a child of Lyanna's or both.

I am also on the fence about whether the toj could actually house people, or if there was anyone there except Eddard and his men and the three kingsguard. We are given the information in the text that Eddard returned Dawn to Starfall and that only makes sense if it was after the tower of joy showdown (whatever that might actually entail). But where else might Ned have gone?

A place I find very interesting is Wyl. We don't get much from Eddard but he does give us (and Robert) the name Wylla. Whether he is actually stating that Wylla is Jon's mother or Wylla was just a woman from Ned's past that Robert knew about is certainly vague, but whatever it might turn out to mean, it's important because GRRM has given us this information. Wylla.

During the Hand's Tourney, Ned also makes note of certain banners and shields and sigil's, and one of those that he notes is a blackadder.

Quote

The shields displayed outside each tent heralded its occupant: the silver eagle of Seagard, Bryce Caron's field of nightingales, a cluster of grapes for the Redwynes, brindled boar, red ox, burning tree, white ram, triple spiral, purple unicorn, dancing maiden, blackadder, twin towers, horned owl, and last the pure white blazons of the Kingsguard, shining like the dawn. AGOT-Eddard VII

Recently in discussion on another board, this blackadder was discussed as a possible nod of GRRM's toward Blackadder, the british television show. I do think that GRRM does like to give us little easter egg's to enjoy, and in a SSM GRRM did admit that this blackadder is a nod to the TV show. But I also think that those little eggs might mean more than just "ha, a Blackadder reference".

House Wyl of Dorne is known to have a black snake biting a foot as their sigil, a nod to the Lord of House Wyl who held Aemon the Dragonknight captive and who challenged Baelor the Blessed to walk barefooted through snakes to retrieve his cousin Aemon. House Wyl is also one of the few houses from Dorne that are named as Martell bannerman in the AGOT appendix.  House Wyl is also named in Clash's appendix but then are not mentioned again. In AFFC, Doran mentions that House Wyl has kept Balon Swann busy in the boneway for 8 days, and House Wyl get's a mention again in Dance. But rather weirdly, House Wyl does not get a mention in the appendix of Feast or Dance, even though the house is mentioned in the text in both books. It could just be an editing oversite, I suppose.

But I think it's interesting that Ned makes note of their banner at the Hand's Tourney and Ned's mention of Wylla. House Wyl is noted to have a famous warrior maiden Wylla in their history, and that this House get's a mention in the Appendix of Game. GRRM has been thinking about House Wyl for a long time. We also will associate Baelor the Blessed with having to walk through a pit full of snakes to retrieve a family member and Ned is associated with Baelor by Robert himself. I can't quite fit it all together, but I know it all must connect. Could Ned have had to go through the Boneway to retrieve someone or something that was important to him? Could that be where this mysterious baby we are searching for could have been held? Castle Wyl, the seat of House Wyl along the boneway. The Boneway is said to run from Summerhall past Wyl and down to Yronwood lands. Could Ned have made this journey? Summerhall stands out here as well, as it is important to Rhaegar.

Honestly, I sometimes wonder if Ned really ever was at Starfall.

 

On 7/17/2018 at 4:40 AM, Tucu said:

I always doubt parts of the Old Nan stories. She seems to be an unwilling propaganda agent for the Others; propagating the black legend that have kept the lands north of the Wall almost empty for thousands of years.

I agree about not believing every bit of Old Nan's stories. I know many people think that she is speaking the complete truth, but I am not sold. I think there is truth and fact in her words, but I think there is also some misleading idea's or subterfuge (not by Old Nan, but perhaps by the author).

 

On 7/17/2018 at 9:00 AM, Tucu said:

I see the shadows as weapons. Niether good nor evil, just tools to be used by the caster to intervene in sentient beings affairs.

The shadow as a tool or weapon is interesting, considering Jon in shadow, as you noted. 

Quote

Sam?" Jon called softly.

The air smelled of paper and dust and years. Before him, tall wooden shelves rose up into dimness, crammed with leatherbound books and bins of ancient scrolls. A faint yellow glow filtered through the stacks from some hidden lamp. Jon blew out the taper he carried, preferring not to risk an open flame amidst so much old dry paper. Instead he followed the light, wending his way down the narrow aisles beneath barrel-vaulted ceilings. All in black, he was a shadow among shadows, dark of hair, long of face, grey of eye. Black moleskin gloves covered his hands; the right because it was burned, the left because a man felt half a fool wearing only one glove.

 

Samwell Tarly sat hunched over a table in a niche carved into the stone of the wall. The glow came from the lamp hung over his head. He looked up at the sound of Jon's steps. ACOK-Jon I

 

Jon is noted to be a shadow among shadows, but Sam Tarly is in the shadow, too! It is the light above his head that is casting the shadow's!

 

On 7/18/2018 at 12:44 PM, Tucu said:

Arya has a tendency to bark at songs and stories that end being related to her...so who are the lady and prince is this song?:

Quote

He is a man of the Night's Watch, she thought, as he sang about some stupid lady throwing herself off some stupid tower because her stupid prince was dead. The lady should go kill the ones who killed her prince

Ashara and Rhaegar? Ashara and her child (a prince)?

Or is this some type of inversion and the lady did indeed kill the ones that killed her prince (by obtaining a promise from Ned). For a while I have been thinking about the possibility that the encounter at the ToJ is not the beggining of Ned's promise but the end of one part of it.

Nice! Interesting idea that it was Ashara's child who was the prince who was killed! Except Ned tells us he doesn't kill children, so how does the idea of Ashara's dead baby (prince?) fit with Ned?

 

On 7/18/2018 at 3:45 PM, SirArthur said:

We also do not know much about the relationship between Lyanna and Ned. Why do we assume it was good ?

Ned does say that he loved Lyanna with all his heart. That seems to indicate a decent relationship.

 

On 7/19/2018 at 5:59 AM, Brad Stark said:

Jon and Rob are close to the same age.  If you look at teenagers, they could look close to the same age and be years apart.  But Rob was conceived before Robert's rebellion, we know that date precisely, as did his mom.  Catelyn believes Jon to be younger, believing Ned cheated on her at war.  Rob was about a year and a half when Ned brought home Jon, who had to pass as younger than a year and a half.  I don't think a 2 year old would, certainly not a kid much older, but Jon could be older by a month or younger by a year. 

If we note the start of the rebellion at the time that Jon Arryn raised his banner's then Robb was conceived long after this. Robert went south after the battle of Gulltown and fought several battles in the the stormlands, while Ned traveled north to raise his banners and then march south again. It seems like Ned and Cat were not married until after the Battle of the Bell's, which was pretty far into the rebellion. 

If Jon was conceived at Harrenhal, or even before Eddard went north to call his banners, he would be more than a little older than Robb. Enough that people would know Jon was older. I am pretty sure that will be the case. That Jon is the eldest son of Eddard (biological or by claiming) and that might make the north see him as a fit ruler for the title of Lord of Winterfell. This might be what Catelyn always feared!

 

On 7/19/2018 at 8:30 AM, JNR said:

And Ashara could hardly be "mad with grief" over the man who dishonored her at Harrenhal if he were Ned, because Ned isn't dead.   Nor could she be "mad with grief" over Brandon, because Brandon died more than a year before.

I always interpreted that Ashara was "mad with grief" over her stillborn child, and not the person who planted that babe, but the text doesn't really clearly answer this concern. Isn't it Arya who hears a song that hint's that Ashara's suicide was related to her "broken heart" but of course the text is very vague about what caused that broken heart. Honestly, sometimes I don't know what I really think I know or just assume. The text is a sand trap waiting to swallow us up whole! 

 

On 7/19/2018 at 2:07 PM, Frey family reunion said:

I have doubts that Eddard did conceive a child with Ashara.  But I do think that Ashara became pregnant at Harrenhal.  Some other poster many years back brought up a pretty good observation.  The Knight of the Laughing Tree story as first told by Howland to his children, fixates on Ashara and who she dances with at the tourney.  Which means, that Howland fixated on Ashara and who she was dancing with at the tourney.  So Eddard and Barristan may not have been the only persons smitten with Ashara.  It was paralleled to Lysa telling Sansa that she counted the number of times that Cat danced with Littlefinger at Riverrun. 

Now of course that doesn't necessarily mean that Ashara would have returned Howland's attentions, but it is an interesting possibility. 

I used to think that Ashara and Rhaegar started something at Harrenhal, but more recently I have come to wonder if it wasn't Robert who "dishonored" Ashara, although it is not wildly known. Barristan couldn't have known that, or I don't think he would serve on Robert's kingsguard. Robert who was drunk on summerwine at Harrenhal, Robert who can't help but notice a pretty face (and Ashara must have been pretty), Robert who never seems to fail to take advantage of the situation for a little slap and tickle when the opportunity presents. I have often wondered if Ashara wasn't the name that Rhaegar said as he died in the water's of the Trident. It is assumed by so many readers that both Robert and Rhaegar loved the same woman (and I know that Robert professes to love Lyanna) but I think that woman was Ashara. I doubt that Robert loved her, but Rhaegar might have, It might have even given Rhaegar a reason to seek revenge on Robert by "taking" Robert's fiance!

 

2 hours ago, SirArthur said:

Or at least Ned is an idiot or a very lucky man, if Jon turned out to look exactly like he wanted him to look.

This has always seemed very important. How could Ned have known what baby Jon would grow to look like? I think Ned was confident that Jon would look like a Stark, and not a Targaryen or Baratheon child.

 

[Frey family reunion]

4 hours ago, Brad Stark said:

I assumed dishonored=lost virginity 

I think dishonored is broad enough to encompass a lady having sex before marriage, and that fact became somewhat public.  Selmy seems to think fairly highly of Ashara so the only reason that he would come to the conclusion that she was dishonored at Harrenhal, is if someone caught her in the act, or if shortly thereafter it was known that she was pregnant.  The fact that he speaks of a stillborn child and only speaks in the singular in regards to the man who dishonors her, makes it pretty clear to me that he is connecting these two things together.

[Frey family reunion]

14 minutes ago, St Daga said:

I am also on the fence about whether the toj could actually house people, or if there was anyone there except Eddard and his men and the three kingsguard

The fact that Ned remembers pulling the tower down, by himself and building a grand total of eight cairns out of it, makes me fairly convinced that the tower was not fit for inhabitation.  If so, then if the three Kingsguards had been there for any length of time, then my guess is that they set up camp nearby.  And of course Arthur is remembered as someone who sets up a good camp.

 

16 minutes ago, St Daga said:

I used to think that Ashara and Rhaegar started something at Harrenhal, but more recently I have come to wonder if it wasn't Robert who "dishonored" Ashara, although it is not wildly known.

If Robert is at a party, and someone is dishonored at the party, Robert should always be considered as a possible suspect as the man doing the "dishonoring".  My point is, that the text explicitly gives us two people who were definitely smitten with Ashara, Eddard and Baristan.  And the KOTLT story may subtly hint that there was a third who shared their attraction towards her.

[Black Crow]

32 minutes ago, St Daga said:

 

I used to think that Ashara and Rhaegar started something at Harrenhal, but more recently I have come to wonder if it wasn't Robert who "dishonored" Ashara, although it is not wildly known. Barristan couldn't have known that, or I don't think he would serve on Robert's kingsguard. Robert who was drunk on summerwine at Harrenhal, Robert who can't help but notice a pretty face (and Ashara must have been pretty), Robert who never seems to fail to take advantage of the situation for a little slap and tickle when the opportunity presents. I have often wondered if Ashara wasn't the name that Rhaegar said as he died in the water's of the Trident. It is assumed by so many readers that both Robert and Rhaegar loved the same woman (and I know that Robert professes to love Lyanna) but I think that woman was Ashara. I doubt that Robert loved her, but Rhaegar might have, It might have even given Rhaegar a reason to seek revenge on Robert by "taking" Robert's fiance!

 

 

If she was mad with grief for the man who dishonoured her then he wasn't Robert or otherwise reputed to be Robert

[Melifeather]

1 hour ago, St Daga said:

I am also on the fence about whether the toj could actually house people, or if there was anyone there except Eddard and his men and the three kingsguard. We are given the information in the text that Eddard returned Dawn to Starfall and that only makes sense if it was after the tower of joy showdown (whatever that might actually entail). But where else might Ned have gone?

I'm fairly confident that the tower of joy is a parallel to the tent where Mirri resurrected Drogo. If the tower was "long fallen", it could be that most of it was already down or dilapidated enough that it was easy for Ned to pull down, but since these details are only provided in Ned's fever dream, it could also mean that Rhaegar's attempted resurrection didn't even take place in Dorne.

It also does not mean that the actual resurrection attempt took place inside the tower. There could have been a tent. Knights and princes were known to travel with elaborate pavilions. Drogo was lifted by his three blood riders and lowered into a bath inside his khal tent. This is a reversal of when the three Kingsguard lifted Rhaegar from the Trident and placed him inside his pavilion. 

In Dunk's dream about how he and Egg went to Dorne, he said the events in the dream were nothing like real life. He said the only thing that was real is that he and egg rode Thunder and Chestnut through the Prince's Pass to Dorne, and that Chestnut died, causing he and Egg to ride double on Thunder until Egg's brother gave them Maester the mule to ride. IMO "Chestnut" is Lyanna since she's associated with horses and we believe she died. The part about riding Thunder double is in reference to the Knight of the Laughing Tree, where I believe Ned skin changed Howland and Lyanna skin changed the horse he rode. Their skinchanging was a forbidden activity, and Ned blamed their actions as causing Lyanna's death, because the Knight of the Laughing Tree's wins caused Rhaegar to turn his attention on Lyanna, which in turn led to her kidnapping and death. So Ned's dream may very well be Dunk's dream, sent to him by Bloodraven.

I propose that Rhaegar was resurrected in his pavillion somewhere near the Trident, and that the wood's witch paralleled Mirri's magic.

Ned's men were wraiths in his fever dream, because they were already dead by the end of the Rebellion, and the only two living after the Sack were Ned and Howland. Ned has been lying about where and how his men died, because he's keeping Jon's identity and Ashara's whereabouts secret. "Chestnut" is also the red stallion Ned brought back to Lady Dustin. Chestnuts are also associated with repeating an old story, as in "that old chestnut". This is evidence that Ned is lying about how Willam Dustin died. I actually would not be surprised if Ned was at Rhaegar's resurrection and their shadows were like the great wolf and burning man seen in Drogo's tent.

 

1 hour ago, St Daga said:

House Wyl of Dorne is known to have a black snake biting a foot as their sigil,

The wheel of time or ouroboros is often described as a dragon eating its own tail. Dragons also look like great snakes. Something caused the great snake to let go of its tail, which in turn caused the death of the king.

1 hour ago, St Daga said:

House Wyl of Dorne is known to have a black snake biting a foot as their sigil, a nod to the Lord of House Wyl who held Aemon the Dragonknight captive and who challenged Baelor the Blessed to walk barefooted through snakes to retrieve his cousin Aemon. House Wyl is also one of the few houses from Dorne that are named as Martell bannerman in the AGOT appendix.  House Wyl is also named in Clash's appendix but then are not mentioned again. In AFFC, Doran mentions that House Wyl has kept Balon Swann busy in the boneway for 8 days, and House Wyl get's a mention again in Dance. But rather weirdly, House Wyl does not get a mention in the appendix of Feast or Dance, even though the house is mentioned in the text in both books. It could just be an editing oversite, I suppose.

I feel that this is all symbolic of how tampering with the wheel of time inadvertently caused the deaths of Aerys and Rhaegar. I think Bloodraven is guilty of tampering, but he did it because he viewed the white walkers as a bigger threat, and needed to change who these historical events happened to. He was trying to affect real change. Either that or Euron is to blame. Damphair has a memory of Euron and a squeaky iron hinge. A hinge holds a door, and iron is a known substance used in warding. If the iron is old it is rusty. If the hinge is rusted, then the warding holding back magic has degraded. 

1 hour ago, St Daga said:

Honestly, I sometimes wonder if Ned really ever was at Starfall.

I wonder this too - very much. I think its just a story. A big tower of "joy" torn down and the deaths of eight people used as "rubble" - read "rubbish" - to cover - thus the cairns - LIES!

1 hour ago, St Daga said:

Nice! Interesting idea that it was Ashara's child who was the prince who was killed! Except Ned tells us he doesn't kill children, so how does the idea of Ashara's dead baby (prince?) fit with Ned?

If Jon is Ashara's child and Ned convinced her to give him up and go to Braavos, then she would be overcome with grief at leaving him.

1 hour ago, St Daga said:

I always interpreted that Ashara was "mad with grief" over her stillborn child, and not the person who planted that babe, but the text doesn't really clearly answer this concern. Isn't it Arya who hears a song that hint's that Ashara's suicide was related to her "broken heart" but of course the text is very vague about what caused that broken heart. Honestly, sometimes I don't know what I really think I know or just assume. The text is a sand trap waiting to swallow us up whole! 

I agree Ashara was mad with grief. Having to leave a child and potentially never see it again would be as bad as death. And if Ashara is in hiding as Septa Lemore, then Ashara is dead to the world. 

[Tucu]

1 hour ago, Feather Crystal said:

If Ashara is Jon's mother, then it's possible Lyanna was never pregnant at all. I believe Arya is retracing Lyanna's trip through the Riverlands, and because Arya never got pregnant, much less raped, then Lyanna probably didn't either. I also believe that Myrcella's escape from Sunspear with Ser Arys is a mirrored repeat of Lyanna's abduction, including taking a sword wound - which would explain why Ned wanted Arya to take sword lessons in the first place.

If Ashara is Jon's mother, then she was the identity of the Fisherman's Daughter. GRRM meant for Ashara and Lyanna to seem like sisters, and they both had escapes similar to Sansa and Arya. Somehow their "routes" and "fates" traded places though. Recall that Arya went on to Braavos, and Sansa is currently in the Vale. Arya stopped short of the Vale, before Sandor changed their course and they ended up going to Riverrun. Sandor knocked Arya out to prevent her from going inside Riverrun. I can see this being a repeat of Arthur knocking Lyanna out to prevent her from showing up at Brandon's wedding. Brandon and Rickard's deaths afterward are mirrored by the Red Wedding.

The Vale and Riverrun are associated with Ned's steps too prior to joining the Rebellion. He left the Vale, crossed the Bite to White Harbor, went to Winterfell to call his banners, then went to Riverrun to marry Catelyn before joining Robert near the Trident.

Somebody died either short of Riverrun or later near Saltpans where Arya left Sandor to die, and the other crossed the Narrow Sea to Braavos. If Lyanna died, then Ashara must have taken the trip across the sea like Arya. Either that or Ashara is buried in Lyanna's tomb and Lyanna went across the Narrow Sea.

Because I'm all about the inversions I like the idea of Lyanna dying and Arthur living as being the reverse of Arya living and Sandor dying. Arthur is alive in disguise much like some readers think Sandor is the gravedigger, but the gravedigger is just a symbolic clue that Arthur isn't really dead. 

 

Continuing with the theme of Arya replaying some of Lyanna steps, what can we extract from Arya pretending to be a lady-in-waiting raped by the Hand of the King (in the Bloody Hand play)? Tywin, Merryweather and JonCon were the Hands in the time between the Harrenhal events and the start of the war.

[Melifeather]

24 minutes ago, Frey family reunion said:

The fact that Ned remembers pulling the tower down, by himself and building a grand total of eight cairns out of it, makes me fairly convinced that the tower was not fit for inhabitation.  If so, then if the three Kingsguards had been there for any length of time, then my guess is that they set up camp nearby.  And of course Arthur is remembered as someone who sets up a good camp.

The tower of joy could be a metaphor for the size of Ned's lies. Lies can be said to be "built", even if in Ned's instance it got torn down in the telling and used to bury eight people. It's an unbelievable feat to think that Ned and Howland could pull down a tower by themselves and use the stones to build cairns. There may be a real tower of joy, but if its location and existence is being used to conceal a bunch of lies, then its a pretty good reason why Ned thinks of it as a bitter memory.

[Melifeather]

31 minutes ago, Tucu said:

Continuing with the theme of Arya replaying some of Lyanna steps, what can we extract from Arya pretending to be a lady-in-waiting raped by the Hand of the King (in the Bloody Hand play)? Tywin and Merryweather were the Hands in the time between the Harrenhal events and the start of the war.

Well, I do think Arya retraced Lyanna's steps up until Lyanna is injured near Saltpans. Sandor died near there, and Arya went to Braavos, because I suspect Arthur lived and Lyanna ended up dying. Then Ashara was actually the one that went to Braavos. This is an ominous sign that Sansa may die, because Ashara is likely still alive.

Ashara was Elia's lady in waiting - and technically one of Rhaella's court ladies also. Tywin left his position as Hand when Aerys announced Jaime's investiture into the Kingsguard at Harrenhal. Aerys's Hands after Tywin: Owen Merryweather, Jon Connington, Qarlton Chelsted, and Wisdom Rossart. 

Recall that Jaime thought he saw Rhaella leave Kings Landing with Viserys, and that she had visible bite marks and scratches from when Aerys raped her.

I think Arya's part in the play is a pretty good clue that lady-in-waiting Ashara was raped also. If she was raped by the king's Hand then the timing would make either Connington, Chelsted, or Rossart the prime suspects. I think Connington is our best suspect here, because he did have a child with him in exile. Ned somehow fought to keep Jon, and then had Ashara give Connington some baby and then told him it was their son. JonCon thinks fAegon is his son, but is pretending he's Aegon. Or maybe he really is Aegon and Ashara was keeping him hidden? Geesh! A double baby swap! The Pisswater Prince for Aegon, and then Aegon for Jon!

I have theorized that Ashara and Rhaella traded places and that it was actually Ashara that Jaime saw. It would be a nice parallel if Rhaella actually travelled to where Rhaegar was being resurrected, because then she could play the mirrored part that pregnant Dany did at Drogo's resurrection. The reversal being that Rhaella didn't lose her child, because Daenerys was born later on Dragonstone. 

[Matthew.]

6 minutes ago, Feather Crystal said:

If she was raped by the king's Hand then the timing would make either Connington, Chelsted, or Rossart the prime suspects. I think Connington is our best suspect here, because he did have a child with him in exile. Ned somehow fought to keep Jon, and then had Ashara give Connington some baby and then told him it was their son. JonCon thinks fAegon is his son, but is pretending he's Aegon.

I'm not so sure about this particular scenario; Connington's internal monologue would suggest that he legitimately believes that Aegon is Rhaegar's son:
 

Quote

So be it. He had grown fond of Lemore, but that did not mean he required her approval. Her task had been to instruct the prince in the doctrines of the Faith, and she had done that. No amount of prayer would put him on the Iron Throne, however. That was Griff's task. He had failed Prince Rhaegar once. He would not fail his son, not whilst life remained in his body.

Also, if Jon Connington is gay (I can't recall whether this is explicitly confirmed, or just implied), I'm going to hazard a guess that his dancing with Ashara at Harrenhal (as per the Meera's story) was more for appearances than from passion.

(random side note from Connington's POV: in his thoughts, Septa Lemore is never Septa Lemore--she's Lemore, or "Lady Lemore." I probably shouldn't read too much into that usage of "Lady," but still...)