Family Etiquette

[Jace, Extat]

So my sister invited herself and her brood along on part of my vacation (they left today, thank the maker), raising my ire by interpreting my offer of a slightly better quality meal than McDonald's as license to allow her brats free roam of the restaurant, where they screamed and squealed and generally made for a miserable dining experience for everyone in the establishment.

My own embarrassment aside, I was mortified on behalf of the other patrons. Thankfully I had the good sense not to suggest anything other than a 'nice' chain restaurant, so I can still get a good meal on this island. But by the five furies if I were not a genteel woman I would have had my sister flayed and hung from a bracket at the door as an apology to the other customers.

Is there anything worse than children at dinner? I exclude the movies from this survey because everyone seems to accept that if you bring your kid to a non kid movie you're a piece of shit. But somehow it remains socially acceptable for children to exhibit boorish behavior at dining places despite the obvious chagrin of those who are attempting to enjoy their evening.

I quite exhausted myself this afternoon and tomorrow I'm going to spend a lot of time waiting my turn so let's have at It! I'm sure some of you will feel that children are deserving of sustenance or some such poorly conceived notion.

[Errant Bard]

I remember being a kid. I remember sitting still, waiting for food to appear or waiting for god knows what once food was consumed, without doing anything, to be excruciatingly boring. Other kids have no conversation and grown ups are ignoring you.

Based on the above,  if I want to go to a nice restaurant, kids will be either willing to be bored or given sustenance and left at home.

And yes, kids are a pain when you are confined with them. Cinema, train, plane, restaurant, workplace(!), metal cages, you name it.

[Iskaral Pust]

Bad parents are the problem.  Bored, tired, hyper, indisciplined or unsupervised kids in close confines are a nightmare.  And that’s the fault of bad parents. 

Our son has come to nice restaurants with us since he was four.  He always brings a book to read or a sketch book, he always behaves impeccably, and we make sure he’s not too tired or too hungry to behave well. 

All I know about Jace’s sister is in the OP, but I’m ready to judge her most harshly. 

[Jace, Extat]

I am grateful for the replies so far. Because I agree. It ain't the kids' fault. It's my sister's fault for being a shit parent. And being married to a shit man. 

I know I say a lot that I hate kids, but really I hate adults who have no business being parents. It ain't my nephew and niece's fault they're unbearable. No more than a dog who is poorly behaved deserves my wrath for bad training/care.

I actually have a good time with the lil' brats when their mom ain't around. I told em everything I know about evolutionary development at the aquarium and the physical considerations of space travel at the museum (before we left for the islands) and they soaked my meagre knowledge up like shipwrecked men dying of thirst shown a freshwater pool with nary a fidget. 

But they mommy don't wanna hear about anything like that, so instead the kids become restless anarchists at dinner and she don't do nothin about it.

[Errant Bard]

2 hours ago, Iskaral Putsch said:

Our son has come to nice restaurants with us since he was four.  He always brings a book to read or a sketch book, he always behaves impeccably, and we make sure he’s not too tired or too hungry to behave well.

Ah, go back in time, give your son a few siblings and see how the supervision goes

Not disagreeing with you, mind, just pointing that when you have peers to play with, books or sketchbooks become less interesting, and adult supervision becomes increasingly hard as the number of kids to supervise increases.

Anecdotal, but to illustrate, I was an odd kid, or so some teachers told my parents, because I often preferred to read a book than play ball during recess in elementary grades, but put me at a table with sister and cousin and no book could distract me.

[A True Kaniggit]

5 hours ago, Jace, Basilissa said:

offer of a slightly better quality meal than McDonald's.

Meh. If you describe the place like this, then any patron there must've known it was a crapshoot on whether or not unruly kids might show. Just their luck the dice happened to come up 7 that night.

With that description I'm guessing..... Applebees?

[Jace, Extat]

It was a Rock Bottom.

Like I said, nothing fancy. But not an Applebees. I'm not a complete bitch.

And also like I said, it's not like I'd take them to an actual nice restaurant.

[A True Kaniggit]

Yo. I've never heard of Rock Bottom before, so I looked it up on Wikipedia. The first "See Also" was Applebee's.

So I'm giving myself a passing grade anyways.

C- at worse.

Edit: I'm satisfied with a B.

[Jace, Extat]

4 minutes ago, A True Kaniggit said:

Yo. I've never heard of Rock Bottom before so I looked it up on Wikipedia. The first "See Also" was Applebee's.

So I'm giving myself a passing grade anyways.

C- at worse.

Eh, I would give you a B. Maybe a B+ 

The steak at RB is at least something I can choke down. They have a nice buttered seasoning if the cut of meat isn't completely disgusting, but almost always cook the shit out of it. 

[Mladen]

Oh, I hate it... Especially in fine restaurants. If you can't control your children (and let we be honest, EVERY PARENT knows whether they can or can't control their kids), stay at home and order some food. Or hire a babysitter.

Here in Serbia, it seems that due to low populations, the entire nation is supposed to suffer  due to someone's decision to have children. OK, your womb sent couple of homo sapiens out to the world? Shall I prepare the Nobel Prize? I truly admire those parents who can control their kids and who have enough manners to apologize and leave if situation gets out of their hands. 

[Alarich II]

 

7 hours ago, Jace, Basilissa said:

Is there anything worse than children at dinner?

Depends on the age of the children. You should probably have asked that question before taking them there: Did you not discuss this with your sister?  Maybe she just misjudged the location and the endurance of her kids. This happens. And speaking as a parent of two small kids (3 and 5), I find it laughable that you would call your sister unfit to be a parent based on that experience. Because I have seen worse behaviour in other kids and my own. From your description, neither the management nor the other patrons did tell the kids off or complained to your sister. So maybe your own perception of the atrocious behaviour was not a general observation? 

Of course it is a great paradox of our time that we can criticize parents for not controlling their kid like a dog on a leash and for being overprotective helicopter parents at the same time. I wouldn't judge a parent as unfit, because they give their kids more leeway in certain settings than I personally would. It doesn't mean I will tolerate any behaviour, but if a certain, deliberate behaviour bothers me I will tell the child off directly (if it is old enough) instead of complaining to or about the parents. Or I offer help, where I can without intruding.

In general, it seems to me like our aging society is not very good at coping with the loss of control and occasional anarchy that kids bring to the table. Apparently raising a child is supposed to be all about control, training and optimization of the one or two kids you have. And god forbid if our easily offended elderly population has to bear the terrible effects of laughing, screaming and playing kids. Please, dear parents, raise your children to be an independent and self-reliant persons who preserve their natural curiosity and eagerness for learning new things, form their own identity and have a critical mind of their own. But also, have them sit in silence, endure boring shit, make them do as they are told, don't let them do dangerous stuff, don't let them walk or bike to shool alone, don't let them be loud or bother the adults.

[Theda Baratheon]

I mean yeah, kids can be annoying especially when they’re constantly screaming or something but I’m never that bothered by them, I mostly just hope they’re OK lol 

i really like laughter and fun so if a kid is just having fun then good on them. I always had fun as a kid - to be fair I never screamed or shouted and was incredibly polite and friendly but then my sister was an absolute NIGHTMARE so sometimes...it IS the kid and not the parents lol. But I absolutely do NOT subscribe to the “kids should be seen and it heard” B.S - I think that’s just horrible. The world is depressing enough - when they have a small pocket of time to hav fun without responsibility let them have it. 

Maybe its a good thing I don’t want kids lol but I think I’d make a good aunt 

[Theda Baratheon]

I really hate seeing little kids being inquistive and having fun and then an adult screams and shouts at them because they’ve simply touched something. It’s horrible. Why have kids if you can’t stand them?! 

[HexMachina]

I work in a pub/restaurant, we get quite a few families in, and yes this includes young children. Sometimes those children get loud and unruly, despite the best efforts of the parents to placate them. Nothing to be done in such situations, just unfortunate. The horrified and ashamed look on the faces of the parents in such situations tells me that they already feel bad enough without others shaming them. 

Different if they are not at all trying to be respectful of other diners though.

But you know what’s worse than kids at a restaurant? Snobby ass adults who complain that a child *gasp* dared to make a little noise. News flash, kids are generally louder than adults even when they are just speaking normally. Don’t see why, in a chain restaurant/casual eatery you should expect children to be Mouse quiet and unnoticed. Sure as kids get older they need to learn more discipline and manners but as long as they aren’t being too disruptive just let them be.

My thoughts are mostly on children being loud/laughing int he restaurant though. They absolutely should not be allowed to run around in the restaurant though, for the health and safety of everyone concerned. If I’m carrying a sizzling skillet from the kitchen and a child runs in front of me, one of us is likely to sustain serious burns

[mormont]

It's almost as if children are human beings.

I'd rather dine with energetic kids than adults who have a stick up their backsides. 

[Jace, Extat]

Allow me to be clear on how disruptive these children were being. It was not simple loudness or general unruliness, such things can be expected even if they are unwanted.

The children in question were leaving their seats and running about the place, more than once almost causing a burdened waiter to topple over. And my sister seemed hardly to notice. Such behavior is beyond the pale to me. I quite wanted to leave immediately and made several efforts to do so but was rebuffed by "I haven't had a good steak in so long" 

As if a chain like Rock Bottom is a 'good' steak. 

I even cooked her a steak before we left. I'm no Chef Ramsay but I can sear a ribeye that'll make angles cry. Ain't nobody's fault but hers the stupid cow orders medium like a goddamn savage.

[Deedles]

I bring my 3 year old to nice restaurants fairly regularly, and always have done. When she was tiny (12 to 24/28 months) we entertained her as much as possible, and when we failed, the trusty pig came out, on mute, on a phone. If the place was very, very quiet we’d let her walk around a bit but walk with her and keep her well out of the way of waiters.  

 

Now we we don’t use tech but she’s generally happy to eat, chat and read some Julia Donaldson. We also make a point of eating as early as possible, typically 5pm. 6 if that’s when it opens. The conversation can be dull but that’s part of parenting. The promise of dessert, which we don’t have at home, keeps her happy.

 

I think part of the reason she behaves well is that’s what she knows. We bring her for brunch about three times a month so she’s used to eating out. We also bring her to places like Wagamama which she loves. 

 

Yes, sometimes she’s a bit loud but mostly reasonable. And frankly, sometimes patrons are drunk and or loud and boring themselves. I’ve gone for wonderful Michelin star meals and been set next to a terribly tedious Brian Blessed type. 

 

Her little brother is 7 weeks, and we e eaten in 2 nice restaurants, Wagamama and the cafe a further 2 times as a whole family. Her Dad has brought her to the cafe another three times. Other than the incessant toilet trips and making a mess of her napkin eating spaghetti bologhnese, her behavior has been very good. 

Mostly, we hope that having grown up used to it, eating out will hold no fears for either child, and they’ll just get on with it. 

[Inigima]

When I was a kid I was out in quite nice restaurants with no issues, and I think there are two reasons why:

1. I was deeply afraid of embarrassing my father. It was drilled into me pretty early that I wasn't to embarrass my parents in public. They didn't hit me or anything, it was just Not Done. I was definitely too loud on a regular basis and was told to lower my voice, but I don't think that's unexpected for kids.

2. My parents gave me something to do. Left to my own devices I would have read, but past a certain age they didn't want me to be sitting at a dinner table reading. We played a game called "Ghost," the idea of which is to spell out words clockwise and avoid the words ending "on" you; if that happens you get a G, then an H, etc. If you get all five letters in GHOST, you lose. Minimum 4 or 5 letters depending on the age of the kid. It kept me busy and it encouraged me to build my vocabulary.

Not much to be done about other people's kids, of course.

[Iskaral Pust]

I don’t think this topic is a question of whether kids should be seen and not heard, I think it’s a question of how much you would impose on the patience of strangers. 

If I had a child(ren) who couldn’t behave appropriately in a nice restaurant then I just wouldn’t bring them there.  It’s not about whether helicopter parenting or free range parenting is better, it’s about whether I would selfishly spoil the evening of others.  I have the very same attitude to overly loud drunk people at nice restaurants, or people who talk a lot in theaters.

If we all know the expectation in a particular shared space is to not intrude jarringly on the experience of other patrons, then I would respect that expectation and be annoyed if others don’t.  There are other shared spaces where boisterous behavior is the expectation and I would be dismissive of a patron complaining about noise. 

Plenty of people are patently unconcerned about how their behavior affects others.  It’s a galling act of entitlement.

[Jace, Extat]

5 minutes ago, Iskaral Putsch said:

I don’t think this topic is a question of whether kids should be seen and not heard, I think it’s a question of how much you would impose on the patience of strangers. 

If I had a child(ren) who couldn’t behave appropriately in a nice restaurant then I just wouldn’t bring them there.  It’s not about whether helicopter parenting or free range parenting is better, it’s about whether I would selfishly spoil the evening of others.  I have the very same attitude to overly loud drunk people at nice restaurants, or people who talk a lot in theaters.

If we all know the expectation in a particular shared space is to not intrude jarringly on the experience of other patrons, then I would respect that expectation and be annoyed if others don’t.  There are other shared spaces where boisterous behavior is the expectation and I would be dismissive of a patron complaining about noise. 

Plenty of people are patently unconcerned about how their behavior affects others.  It’s a galling act of entitlement.

Well put. It's simple social conduct. If your kid is tearing around a Burger King or even an Applebees nobody with sense is going to be offended. But at a relatively peaceful establishment where bitches be trying to have a drink or ten there has to be a line. 

A reputable establishment will send off a loud drunk, but a kid is untouchable?