Family Etiquette

[mormont]

Kids are not drunks. That's a truly terrible analogy. 

[drawkcabi]

A couple anecdotes:

Back when my parents had a restaurant I remember one incident in particular. A family was dining there and their kids were being especially rambunctious, obnoxious, and LOUD.

My mom had to go over to their table and politely request the parents either quiet their kids or take them outside.

The father was outraged and proclaimed he was going to write a letter to the local newspaper about us titled "Families Beware!" then he and his family walked out.

The rest of the customers applauded.

ETA:

(For the family leaving, not for what the father said.)

 

About the movies...

If I'm going to a Disney movie, or any "kid's" movie, or movies for adults and kids, I expect kids.

When I went to see Batman Returns on opening weekend and the theater was packed, I accepted the inevitability I'd have to get up at least once to allow some of the kids sitting next to me to get out when they had to go to the bathroom. I wasn't surprised either when my popcorn was knocked over and spilled all over the floor, accepting it in stride as part of the bargain for the movie I was seeing on the day and time I was seeing it.

However, when I went to see The Sixth Sense, there was one family with about 3 kids ranging in age from about 3 - 6 years old and all throughout the movie they were running back and forth, in and out of the theater, talking to their parents, not paying attention to what was on screen for one moment, and being a general distraction throughout the movie. That was inexcusable. 

[Alarich II]

59 minutes ago, Jace, Basilissa said:

A reputable establishment will send off a loud drunk, but a kid is untouchable?

No, but that decision is not taken by an individual patron, but by the establishments management.

And speaking of entitlement: Strictly speaking, if you go to a restaurant, you are entitled to the drinks and food you pay for, depending on the establishment, a chair and a table for temporary use. Unless the restaurant makes a specific promise like "quiet atmosphere" or "kids free diner" you are not entitled to any sort of noise level or what have you. You can of course complain, but really, you don't own a place just because every once in a while you decide to eat there.

Of course, parents should be expected to help their children learn how to behave in a mindful manner around other people, in public an private places. And for most parents it is a most unpleasant experience when their children display unruly, rude and obnoxious behaviour, because it also ruins their own experience. Also, you don't want to be kicked out of an establishment, because of your kids behaviour. There is plenty of incentive to have your children be quiet and well mannered or otherwise avoid these places. Parents are not entitled to "safe spaces" where their parenting efforts aren't critized, at least not in public spaces.

I think we can expect a certain parental judgement as to where and when they take out their kids to dinner. I also think it is reasonable to allow a certain margin of error in that judgement.

The kind of judgemental reaction where apparently you are unfit to be a parent because your child misbehaves at a restaurant is not reasonable.

[Jace, Extat]

1 hour ago, La Albearceleste said:

Kids are not drunks. That's a truly terrible analogy. 

I have never seen a person asked to leave for being drunk. Being drunk and disruptive though? 

That's the behavior in question, disruptiveness. Not sobriety. So it's a fine analogy.

And you kid defenders are acting like I and my fellow quieteers are not willing to conceed general kiddishness. We are discussing extreme disruptiveness like running around the restaurant or theater, causing or threatening collateral damage.

[DMC]

4 hours ago, Jace, Basilissa said:

I have never seen a person asked to leave for being drunk.

I have, all the time.  Mostly for being passed out, but I know some bartenders will kick people out just by the look of em.  The blackout look is pretty universal and impossible to hide for unseasoned alcoholics.

Anyway, can't say I've ever had much problem with kids getting rambunctious at restaurants.  I do get the running around thing - have almost stomped/knocked over plenty a kid and that needs to be stopped immediately.  Can't recall me nor my siblings acting like that (except at, like, putt-putt), but I've always been much more aghast/embarrassed when friends act like 5 year olds in public than when 5 year olds act like 5 year olds.  The only thing that gets me is when infants throw tantrums, and that's just cuz I feel incredibly bad for the parent. 

As another aside, I've been to a bunch of different Rock Bottoms throughout the country and their quality is incredibly volatile franchise to franchise.  I wouldn't get steak at any of them though.

[Jace, Extat]

9 minutes ago, DMC said:

I have, all the time.  Mostly for being passed out, but I know some bartenders will kick people out just by the look of em.  The blackout look is pretty universal and impossible to hide for unseasoned alcoholics.

Anyway, can't say I've ever had much problem with kids getting rambunctious at restaurants.  I do get the running around thing - have almost stomped/knocked over plenty a kid and that needs to be stopped immediately.  Can't recall me nor my siblings acting like that (except at, like, putt-putt), but I've always been much more aghast/embarrassed when friends act like 5 year olds in public than when 5 year olds act like 5 year olds.  The only thing that gets me is when infants throw tantrums, and that's just cuz I feel incredibly bad for the parent. 

As another aside, I've been to a bunch of different Rock Bottoms throughout the country and their quality is incredibly volatile franchise to franchise.  I wouldn't get steak at any of them though.

Yeah, I normally don't frequent such dumps but I wasn't wasting a good cook's efforts on my sister. 

It wouldn't have been humane.

[DMC]

14 minutes ago, Jace, Basilissa said:

Yeah, I normally don't frequent such dumps but I wasn't wasting a good cook's efforts on my sister. 

Wouldn't call them dumps - the one in Bethesda was actually really nice (or at least was about 12 years ago) - but if I want chain-restaurant steak I'll just go to Longhorn.

[Deedles]

Away from restaurants for a minute, I was out with the toddler and 6 week old last weekend. We took public transport, a tram. I had the Baba in a sling. Neither of us were offered a seat. Fine, we coped, she was whiny and cranky as she said she was scared. I crouched to her level. To comfort her, and frankly it is a bit scary when all you can really see is legs and bags coming at your face but we got through.  About half way through two seats became free so we sat down. She read for a while then started to put her feet on the seat. I told her not to, she did, I told her off, she started sliding and planking her body (not safe), I told her off and picked her up to sit down. She screamed and tantrumed for three or four stops. Did I make other commuters journey less pleasant. Definitely. Was it annoying? Certainly. I don’t see what else I could do though. I won’t permit feet on seats when it’s not our property, and I couldn’t allow the planking. 

[Jace, Extat]

4 minutes ago, DMC said:

Wouldn't call them dumps - the one in Bethesda was actually really nice (or at least was about 12 years ago) - but if I want chain-restaurant steak I'll just go to Longhorn.

Eww. And I already established I'm not the one who wanted a 'nice steak' from the place. I prepare my own or go to restaurants where there aren't numbers on the menu.

[DMC]

4 minutes ago, Deedles said:

I had the Baba in a sling. Neither of us were offered a seat.

That's definitely one of my pet peeves - people not showing basic courtesy on public transport.  If you're an able-bodied adult just get the fuck up, sorry if you can't read your book or whatever.

4 minutes ago, Jace, Basilissa said:

Eww. And I already established I'm not the one who wanted a 'nice steak' from the place. I prepare my own or go to restaurants where there aren't numbers on the menu.

Of course the latter is preferable, but I've definitely been lazy enough to say fuck it let's just go to Longhorn on occasion.  Be judgy if you want.  Elitist.

[Jace, Extat]

9 minutes ago, DMC said:

.

Of course the latter is preferable, but I've definitely been lazy enough to say fuck it let's just go to Longhorn on occasion.  Be judgy if you want.  Elitist.

The only reason I've found for moderate financial security is to rub it in the faces of those who have to practice 'restraint' because of 'reasons' or whatever.

You'll get the last laugh, my retirement plan is a bottle of tequila and a straight razor. 

[S John]

A year or so ago I was out with my parents  at a restaurant and there were some unruly children around.  My mom said to me, ‘my kids never acted like that.’  So I asked her how she got us to behave in public.  She said she would threaten us in the car before we went inside anywhere.  Noted.

[DMC]

10 minutes ago, Jace, Basilissa said:

The only reason I've found for moderate financial security is to rub it in the faces of those who have to practice 'restraint' because of 'reasons' or whatever.

You'll get the last laugh, my retirement plan is a bottle of tequila and a straight razor. 

Um, you would have to have much more than "moderate" financial security if you can just go to a high-end steakhouse on a whim.  Hell I think I'm privileged for being able to go to mid-range places and subsequently have only had fast food a handful of times (road trips or airports) over the past decade.

[lessthanluke]

9 hours ago, DMC said:

That's definitely one of my pet peeves - people not showing basic courtesy on public transport.  If you're an able-bodied adult just get the fuck up, sorry if you can't read your book or whatever.

 

Meh. After a long day I am not standing up for a child sorry. I have earnt that seat.

[mormont]

15 hours ago, Jace, Basilissa said:

I have never seen a person asked to leave for being drunk.

You probably should've. In many jurisdictions, being drunk on a licensed premises is technically illegal and grounds for being asked to leave in and of itself. But that's a digression.

15 hours ago, Jace, Basilissa said:

Being drunk and disruptive though? 

That's the behavior in question, disruptiveness. Not sobriety. So it's a fine analogy.

No. It's a really bad and stupid analogy. let me explain why. 

A drunk person who is disruptive is normally an adult, who is capable of fully understanding what behaviours are disruptive to others and why, who made a positive and conscious decision to become intoxicated knowing that it would affect their behaviour, and who therefore bears personal responsibility for what happens.

None of this is true of a child. So this analogy is saying that two things that are very different are in fact the same. That's why it's a stupid and bad analogy. It is not analogous. 

I would venture to suggest that the only way someone could think this is a good analogy is if the only thing they gave a shit about was their own comfort. But that wouldn't make it a fine analogy. It would just make that person wrong. 

15 hours ago, Jace, Basilissa said:

And you kid defenders are acting like I and my fellow quieteers are not willing to conceed general kiddishness. We are discussing extreme disruptiveness like running around the restaurant or theater, causing or threatening collateral damage.

Are you really though? Reading the posts on this thread that complain about kids, I don't get a sense of people expressing public-minded concern for health and safety. I get a sense of people who are personally irritated about their own comfort levels, and think that kids should be seen and not heard.

[baxus]

On 7/4/2018 at 9:52 AM, Risto said:

Oh, I hate it... Especially in fine restaurants. If you can't control your children (and let we be honest, EVERY PARENT knows whether they can or can't control their kids), stay at home and order some food. Or hire a babysitter.

Here in Serbia, it seems that due to low populations, the entire nation is supposed to suffer  due to someone's decision to have children. OK, your womb sent couple of homo sapiens out to the world? Shall I prepare the Nobel Prize? I truly admire those parents who can control their kids and who have enough manners to apologize and leave if situation gets out of their hands. 

It's bad parenting. Parents should be held more accountable for failing to raise their children properly.

The problem in Serbia (it's probably not that much different elsewhere) is that there are a lot of people who seem to think that they're doing everyone a favour by having kids and that their kids can do no wrong.

And I'm not saying that kids should sit and be quiet all the time, but if you know your kid is not the one to sit down for couple of hours and be relatively quiet you take your kid elsewhere. Or you can take your kid to the park, ride a bike or whatever during the day, then go to the restaurant in the evening. Parents should definitely know their kids well enough to manage this. If not, hire a babysitter and then go out.

12 hours ago, Deedles said:

Away from restaurants for a minute, I was out with the toddler and 6 week old last weekend. We took public transport, a tram. I had the Baba in a sling. Neither of us were offered a seat. Fine, we coped, she was whiny and cranky as she said she was scared. I crouched to her level. To comfort her, and frankly it is a bit scary when all you can really see is legs and bags coming at your face but we got through.  About half way through two seats became free so we sat down. She read for a while then started to put her feet on the seat. I told her not to, she did, I told her off, she started sliding and planking her body (not safe), I told her off and picked her up to sit down. She screamed and tantrumed for three or four stops. Did I make other commuters journey less pleasant. Definitely. Was it annoying? Certainly. I don’t see what else I could do though. I won’t permit feet on seats when it’s not our property, and I couldn’t allow the planking. 

This is what I would've done, too. Probably would've added some "no TV for X days" or something like that

2 hours ago, lessthanluke said:

Meh. After a long day I am not standing up for a child sorry. I have earnt that seat.

Sorry I have to say this, but that's a dick move.

[Jace, Extat]

When I go to the zoo, I expect monkeys. When I go to dinner I expect unrelated fellow diners. Once again, I will make clear that there is a difference between moderate and inevitable impolite behavior at a public space and letting children scream and run around the room with impunity. 

But since you're so fixated on suggesting I simply can't abide -any- disruption of my personal experience, I'll play. What the hell, right? My helicopter tour of the chain isn't wheels up for like seven hours and as the other drunks are poor company but we aren't gonna be asked to leave on account of not being disruptive I've got time to burn.

Your insistence that any objection to any disruptive childish behavior is purely selfish inconsideration of others is a perfectly fine assertion. But only if you ignore that taking poorly behaved children to a setting where they will feel the need to act out and inconvenience others is also pretty fucking selfish. And by orders of magnitude more. If a kid is annoying or bothering multiple unassociated patrons, isn't the burden on the parents to set their own comfort aside in deference to the majority who either had the good sense not to breed or at least tame their spawn? Cuts both ways, playa. Cause I ain't talking about wanting basic table manners at ChuckE Cheeze, or even Applebees or "family" restaurants. I'm talking about places that don't have a kids menu, where adults are assumed to be congregating. If you're gonna take a kid to a place like that, maybe be responsible enough to know the kid can handle it.

So spare me the woes of the parent. If you have a kid, guess what? You don't get to do some things no more. Like binge drinking or base jumping or having a decent night out. And if you wanna do that stuff either leave the kids home or leave the kid's life. I ain't judging. 

There is no moral high ground deserved for indulging in literally the most base instinct a living organism possesses. You get a tax break. And I pay for the kid's education. My burden to a stranger's child ends there unless I'm at work. And when I'm at work I'll send your kid to a pediatrician where it belongs.

Man, now you got me having fun being the villain. How am I supposed to wallow in self loathing when I'm enjoying myself too much? Sometimes these internet phones are as much curse as blessing, I tell ya.

[A True Kaniggit]

19 hours ago, Inigima said:

2. My parents gave me something to do. Left to my own devices I would have read, but past a certain age they didn't want me to be sitting at a dinner table reading.

My mother did the same thing to me at some point (12 maybe?) . I always thought it was weird. You'd think they'd prefer us sitting at the table reading instead of making a ruckus. 

 

[lessthanluke]

28 minutes ago, baxusalah said:

 

Sorry I have to say this, but that's a dick move.

Oh yeah I know. But gotta be selfish occasionally in life. 

Elderly people or disabled people? Sure.

Children? Depends how tired I am but for the most part nah. 

[Jace, Extat]

5 minutes ago, lessthanluke said:

Oh yeah I know. But gotta be selfish occasionally in life. 

Elderly people or disabled people? Sure.

Children? No chance.

Hmm. At first I was on the same train of thought as baxusalah but this expansion of your position has me taking your side. 

And I'm going Full Ultron in this thread, so YEAH! FUCK KIDS!!!!