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Jace, Extat

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30 minutes ago, Jace, Basilissa said:

But only if you ignore that taking poorly behaved children to a setting where they will feel the need to act out and inconvenience others is also pretty fucking selfish.

I do tend to ignore things that aren't true, yes. 

30 minutes ago, Jace, Basilissa said:

So spare me the woes of the parent.

No.

You started this thread to give us all your woes. If you have no time for other people's woes, why should anyone else have time for yours?

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2 minutes ago, La Albearceleste said:

I do tend to ignore things that aren't true, yes. 

No.

You started this thread to give us all your woes. If you have no time for other people's woes, why should anyone else have time for yours?

Goddamn, the bear can dance! I love you man. You're all right. 

Though I will be forced to disagree on that first point.

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On 7/3/2018 at 10:03 PM, Jace, Basilissa said:

So my sister invited herself and her brood along on part of my vacation (they left today, thank the maker), raising my ire by interpreting my offer of a slightly better quality meal than McDonald's as license to allow her brats free roam of the restaurant, where they screamed and squealed and generally made for a miserable dining experience for everyone in the establishment.

My own embarrassment aside, I was mortified on behalf of the other patrons. Thankfully I had the good sense not to suggest anything other than a 'nice' chain restaurant, so I can still get a good meal on this island. But by the five furies if I were not a genteel woman I would have had my sister flayed and hung from a bracket at the door as an apology to the other customers.

Is there anything worse than children at dinner? I exclude the movies from this survey because everyone seems to accept that if you bring your kid to a non kid movie you're a piece of shit. But somehow it remains socially acceptable for children to exhibit boorish behavior at dining places despite the obvious chagrin of those who are attempting to enjoy their evening.

I quite exhausted myself this afternoon and tomorrow I'm going to spend a lot of time waiting my turn so let's have at It! I'm sure some of you will feel that children are deserving of sustenance or some such poorly conceived notion.

When my daughter was two my father took all of us to the “Hotel Baker” a lovely upscale restaurant in St. Charles IL.  As we walked in with our toddler in tow we could here the grumbling of other patrons.  My daughter was an angel.  The manager of the restaurant was so impressed by her behavior she brought her a free dessert.  Not all kids are nightmares in restaurants or theaters.

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26 minutes ago, baxusalah said:

And I'm not saying that kids should sit and be quiet all the time, but if you know your kid is not the one to sit down for couple of hours and be relatively quiet you take your kid elsewhere.

I'm not saying you're saying it... but you're saying it. Of course you have little or no experience with kids, so it is understandable that you have no knowledge about what can and what can't reasonably be expected of children.

This is a general problem: the expectation of what a child can and can't do are either totally over the top (like sitting down quietly for a couple of hours), or far below their abilities (like first graders can't walk to school alone). So kids are expected to act in a self-conscious and responsible manner but they are not given the necessary freedom to develop just that.

Instead of bitching about the parents, I would suggest this: you adress the child directly, tell them what behaviour bothers you and why and suggest an alternative (Play at your parents table etc.). That way  child gets valuable feedback on its behaviour, that's how children learn. and that's basically how it was done since, well, ever. Parents have to accept, of course, that behaviour in public will generate a certain amount of public feedback.

20 minutes ago, Jace, Basilissa said:

I'm talking about places that don't have a kids menu, where adults are assumed to be congregating

Then why on earth did you invite your sister and her kids to a place like that?

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Her idea. I had to talk her down from a real nice place at the resort because I knew the kids wouldn't be like Scott's daughter. But I didn't realize they'd be terrorizing the joint. I don't interact with them often, and they seemed almost mannered when we were at some of the sights.

As I said earlier, once I saw the belligerence I tried to make a retreat but to no avail. I do blame myself though, make no mistake. Last time I see those people if I can help it. 

And I can. Heh. Damn it's good to be a soulless monster. I really recommend it, good for the blood pressure. 

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Re: "kids are like that, suck it":

Weird that when I eat out, I am rarely disturbed by kids. Either there are very very few parents around, or the minority with disruptive kids does something different from the others.

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20 minutes ago, Alarich II said:

I'm not saying you're saying it... but you're saying it. Of course you have little or no experience with kids, so it is understandable that you have no knowledge about what can and what can't reasonably be expected of children.

This is a general problem: the expectation of what a child can and can't do are either totally over the top (like sitting down quietly for a couple of hours), or far below their abilities (like first graders can't walk to school alone). So kids are expected to act in a self-conscious and responsible manner but they are not given the necessary freedom to develop just that.

Instead of bitching about the parents, I would suggest this: you adress the child directly, tell them what behaviour bothers you and why and suggest an alternative (Play at your parents table etc.). That way  child gets valuable feedback on its behaviour, that's how children learn. and that's basically how it was done since, well, ever. Parents have to accept, of course, that behaviour in public will generate a certain amount of public feedback.

I never expressed any expectations of what a child can and can't do, did I? Kids will be kids, there's nothing wrong with that.

It's down to parents to determine if a certain setting is suitable for their kids or not, based on what they know about their kids. If their kid is not suited to sitting down quietly for a couple of hours then they should plan their dining accordingly. If they don't, they should not be surprised when called out on that.

Once again, it's not kids fault. It's parents responsibility.

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1 hour ago, La Albearceleste said:

I do tend to ignore things that aren't true, yes. 

But only if you ignore that taking poorly behaved children to a setting where they will feel the need to act out and inconvenience others is also pretty fucking selfish. - Jace.

But that is true. When I went to watch Avengers: Infinity Wars, a mother brought her 4-5 month old kid. At the infant's age of course she didn't bring the child to see the movie for the kids benefit. She wanted to see the movie herself. And during the showing the kid fussed and screamed for at least 30 minutes of the film, and not once did she take her child away to calm he/she down. So because she wanted to see the movie in it's entirety 150+ people had their viewing disturbed.

 

How could you describe her staying in the theater with an infant screaming as not selfish? Cause she was pretty damn selfish.

 

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20 minutes ago, Errant Bard said:

Re: "kids are like that, suck it":

Weird that when I eat out, I am rarely disturbed by kids. Either there are very very few parents around, or the minority with disruptive kids does something different from the others.

Or... kids are human beings. They behave differently on different days. And they're all different, and develop at different rates. The kids you see behaving beautifully in the restaurant today, will be the same ones someone is complaining about behaving badly the next time they're in a restaurant. And so, according to some, the parents will be great parents today and bad parents next time, despite the fact that they've done nothing differently. Their kids just had a good day or a bad day. 

And in some cases, those kids will be having a bad day for reasons you know nothing about. I've raised three kids. One is autistic. One, I strongly suspect, had ADHD, though it was never diagnosed. The other had no behavioural issues. Two of those three were fine in restaurants, the other could be fine or could be difficult depending on the day. Yet the suggestion appears to be that my then-wife and I should have sat at home with all three of them for fear of offending another (adult) patron whose right to eat in the conditions they prefer is sacrosanct. My brother has three autistic kids, for that matter: one has always been fine in restaurants, one used to be a terror but has grown out of it, one is good some days and bad other days. Should he and his wife also sit at home always? 

Let me short-circuit the discussion of ADHD, ADD, autism etc. I know, you 'weren't talking about those kids'. Yes, you were. You just don't know it. They don't have labels on their foreheads. Besides, it doesn't matter if the kid has a diagnosed behavioural condition listed in the DSM, or is just going through a tough stage in their normal development. It's not their fault. They're kids. 

And it's not their parents' fault either. Did you behave well in restaurants as a child? That's great. Do your kids behave well in restaurants? Full credit to them. Them, not you. I'm sure you are a good parent. So am I. So is my brother. We don't do anything differently than the rest of you. Neither do the vast majority of the parents of the kids who act up in a restaurant. 

Being a good parent involves being a good adult, and that isn't compatible with looking down your nose at other parents or patting yourself on the back for how your kids behave. It involves recognising that parenthood is a tough gig, and if you haven't found it so, you've been lucky, not brilliant. 

6 minutes ago, A True Kaniggit said:

How could you describe her staying in the theater with an infant screaming as not selfish? Cause she was pretty damn selfish.

There's something missing from this post. Empathy.

Sorry, but without empathy you don't get to talk about what's selfish and what's not, because without that, you're just using 'selfish' as a synonym for 'inconvenient to me'. 

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6 minutes ago, A True Kaniggit said:

But only if you ignore that taking poorly behaved children to a setting where they will feel the need to act out and inconvenience others is also pretty fucking selfish. - Jace.

But that is true. When I went to watch Avengers: Infinity Wars, a mother brought her 4-5 month old kid. At the infant's age of course she didn't bring the child to see the movie for the kids benefit. She wanted to see the movie herself. And during the showing the kid fussed and screamed for at least 30 minutes of the film, and not once did she take her child away to calm he/she down. So because she wanted to see the movie in it's entirety 150+ people had their viewing disturbed.

 

How could you describe her staying in the theater with an infant screaming as not selfish? Cause she was pretty damn selfish.

 

That was rude.  Bringing an infant to a film is pretty rude to begin with.

 

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12 minutes ago, La Albearceleste said:

There's something missing from this post. Empathy.

Sorry, but without empathy you don't get to talk about what's selfish and what's not, because without that, you're just using 'selfish' as a synonym for 'inconvenient to me'. 

Nah. I can be emphatic towards the mother, and still understand her actions were selfish.

Maybe she doesn't get out much. Maybe this one time going to the movies was the first thing she did for herself since her child was born, and she was going to enjoy it.

I can empathize and understand her POV, while at the same time knowing her staying in the theater with a screaming infant was selfish.

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21 minutes ago, baxusalah said:

It's down to parents to determine if a certain setting is suitable for their kids or not, based on what they know about their kids. If their kid is not suited to sitting down quietly for a couple of hours then they should plan their dining accordingly. If they don't, they should not be surprised when called out on that.

See, that's the point though: you expect the parents to make that determination based on what you consider a reasonable request. And apparently you consider it a reasonable request for kids to sit down quietly for a couple of hours.

You know, when you go out in public spaces, you should generally expect children and their behaviour to be part of the general public. I know that's sometimes inconvenient, but being an adult means that you should have learned how to deal with inconvenient situations. A reasonable assumption when dealing with such a situation is that neither the parents nor the kids are doing this because they want to annoy or disturb you.

I'm also not a fan of absolving kids of all responsibility. They can and do have to learn to take responsibility for their actions. I would have no problem, if for example in a restaurant, you were to adress this directly: "Hey Kids, your running around my table bothers me, because I am afraid you will knock over my glass of wine, why don't you ask your parents or the waiter for a pencil and a paper and draw a nice picture instead." And most kids will react to that and learn from that. In most cases it's a good idea to ask yourself (wether you are a parent or not): how would I like my child to solve this conflict? And then take it from there.

6 weeks ago, I found 3 boys from the neighbourhood playing on the tire swing that I hung in a tree. They were about 9 to 11 years old. Now, our lot is about 2.5 acres big and not fenced: obviously kids will be inquisitive, but it is also very obvious that it is private property and they knew that. Obviously I cannot expect their parents to lock them inside or supervise their playtime. So I just told them that I don't want them on my property without me or my wife knowing, in case something happens or stuff gets destroyed, but if they want to come and play, feel free to ring at the door and ask. Problem solved, no need to get their parents involved.

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Definitely on the side of "it's the parents fault"

When the kids were really little, we had a rule of only going to actual sit down restaurants before 5 pm, to avoid any disturbance they might make being during the main "dinner" crowd time (mosly we'd go mid-afternoons on weekends)

After they were 4 or more, we always brought something to entertain them, books, crayons & paper, small toys, anything they could do by themselves (the older two were prior to hand held devices). My youngest, after about age 6 or 7, was allowed to bring his DS to keep him occupied (he still does as a teenager, lol. )

 

eta:  I should add, that whenever I took my kids someplace, I always explained what the expected behavior was BEFORE we got there.  If we were shopping, I'd let them know in advance if they were allowed to ask for anything or not, like "you can each pick 1 box of cereal, and that is all I can get for you, so no asking for other things"  "you can pick your own school supplies, but I have a $ limit, so if you get a fancy one, you may not be able to get other things"  "you have to stay in your seats during the dinner, but after we leave we'll stop by the park for 30 minutes"  

Knowing the expectations cut down on a lot of the typical drama

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7 hours ago, lessthanluke said:

Meh. After a long day I am not standing up for a child sorry. I have earnt that seat.

4 hours ago, lessthanluke said:

Oh yeah I know. But gotta be selfish occasionally in life. 

Elderly people or disabled people? Sure.

Children? Depends how tired I am but for the most part nah. 

Boo!!!  First, how in the hell did you "earn" that seat?  Because you got on earlier than others?  Second, as for this "gotta be selfish sometimes" motto, well, that's why the Sox will never win the series.  Can empathize with the sentiment, but I think it's better served to be selfish in ways that don't discomfort others.

4 hours ago, Jace, Basilissa said:

Your insistence that any objection to any disruptive childish behavior is purely selfish inconsideration of others is a perfectly fine assertion. But only if you ignore that taking poorly behaved children to a setting where they will feel the need to act out and inconvenience others is also pretty fucking selfish. And by orders of magnitude more. If a kid is annoying or bothering multiple unassociated patrons, isn't the burden on the parents to set their own comfort aside in deference to the majority who either had the good sense not to breed or at least tame their spawn? Cuts both ways, playa. Cause I ain't talking about wanting basic table manners at ChuckE Cheeze, or even Applebees or "family" restaurants. I'm talking about places that don't have a kids menu, where adults are assumed to be congregating. If you're gonna take a kid to a place like that, maybe be responsible enough to know the kid can handle it.

C'mon, you're talking about Rock Bottom.  In the establishments you're talking about - in which adults are thought to be congregating, getting drunk, and making asses out of themselves - if kids annoy you for acting like kids you probably shouldn't go there in the first place.  Because, again, it's far more annoying when adults act like kids, which is kinda the point of such places anyway.

3 hours ago, Errant Bard said:

Weird that when I eat out, I am rarely disturbed by kids. Either there are very very few parents around, or the minority with disruptive kids does something different from the others.

Yup.

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48 minutes ago, DMC said:

Boo!!!  First, how in the hell did you "earn" that seat?  Because you got on earlier than others?  Second, as for this "gotta be selfish sometimes" motto, well, that's why the Sox will never win the series.  Can empathize with the sentiment, but I think it's better served to be selfish in ways that don't discomfort others.

C'mon, you're talking about Rock Bottom.  In the establishments you're talking about - in which adults are thought to be congregating, getting drunk, and making asses out of themselves - if kids annoy you for acting like kids you probably shouldn't go there in the first place.  Because, again, it's far more annoying when adults act like kids, which is kinda the point of such places anyway.

Yup.

Yup by getting there first. Well me giving up my seat would discomfort me sooo. 

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1 hour ago, Alarich II said:

See, that's the point though: you expect the parents to make that determination based on what you consider a reasonable request. And apparently you consider it a reasonable request for kids to sit down quietly for a couple of hours.

You know, when you go out in public spaces, you should generally expect children and their behaviour to be part of the general public. I know that's sometimes inconvenient, but being an adult means that you should have learned how to deal with inconvenient situations. A reasonable assumption when dealing with such a situation is that neither the parents nor the kids are doing this because they want to annoy or disturb you.

I'm also not a fan of absolving kids of all responsibility. They can and do have to learn to take responsibility for their actions. I would have no problem, if for example in a restaurant, you were to adress this directly: "Hey Kids, your running around my table bothers me, because I am afraid you will knock over my glass of wine, why don't you ask your parents or the waiter for a pencil and a paper and draw a nice picture instead." And most kids will react to that and learn from that. In most cases it's a good idea to ask yourself (wether you are a parent or not): how would I like my child to solve this conflict? And then take it from there.

Sorry, but sitting down at your table in a restaurant is not an unreasonable request. If kids can't do it, don't take them to the restaurant. Or you can take them and be considered rude. It is that simple.

Public spaces are public, but generally there are rules for behaving properly in each of them. Restaurant and park/playground have different sets of rules and the expected behaviour when at one of them is pretty different. What is perfectly fine in one may not be in the other.

And yes, if my kid was running around the restaurant, you can rest assured they wouldn't be running for long. If nothing else worked, I would leave. Next time, I'd make sure that I find a babysitter when going to a restaurant. It's not really rocket science.

 

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I think being a parent comes with some of the same risks as being a roadie. After a while you have to kind of not even register loud sounds anymore because otherwise you’ll never get anything done and probably go nuts. 

I do agree with the point made that single kids are probably a lot easier to manage in this regard than any multiple. Again, a lot like being on the road with...but I digress. 

 

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