Corvinus85 Posted January 14, 2019 Share Posted January 14, 2019 Yeah, I agree with what's being said. It's like Disney decided that the films shouldn't be the core of the tapestry of the Star Wars universe, despite knowing full well that's what attracted people to it in the first place, and spreading it out over other media. Similar to playing a video game that only becomes complete once you get all the DLCs. The original Star Wars, i.e. A New Hope had a simplistic, but clear approach to creating its universe. Here is this big, evil empire. Here is this small group of rebels, who are the good guys, that oppose them. Times used to be better when Jedi were around. Go! It had nothing to build on, while the new trilogy did, and it really shouldn't have followed the same formula for its beginnings. You can have the rise of a new evil group, that's kinda like the Empire, but maybe put it in the movie, and not rely on other media. Why is the Republic so out of it, after all the trouble the good guys went through to bring it back. 2 hours ago, Kalbear said: This is, of course, NOT a problem with TLJ in any way, and is something that TLJ goes out of its way to actively solve. The problem here was TFA. TLJ's problems are mainly with the plot structure and pacing. The slowest space chase in history should have been done differently, and it didn't help that it got setup with a plot hole (why did the Resistance ships stop in the middle of nowhere to being with?) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kalbear Posted January 14, 2019 Share Posted January 14, 2019 32 minutes ago, divica said: We lost our son. 1011 01:24:52,754 --> 01:24:53,926 Forever. 1012 01:24:54,006 --> 01:24:55,007 No. 1013 01:24:55,132 --> 01:24:56,679 It was Snoke. 1014 01:24:57,134 --> 01:24:59,762 He seduced our son to the dark side. 1015 01:24:59,845 --> 01:25:01,438 But we can still save him. 1016 01:25:02,139 --> 01:25:03,265 Me. 1017 01:25:04,182 --> 01:25:05,229 You. 1018 01:25:06,059 --> 01:25:08,403 If Luke couldn't reach him, how could I? 1019 01:25:08,478 --> 01:25:09,900 Luke is a Jedi. 1020 01:25:11,481 --> 01:25:12,824 You're his father. That's what Leia wants to believe. She's wrong. And Ren proves that pretty heavily later when he kills his dad. But she doesn't know, because she doesn't know that Luke almost killed him. She doesn't know why Luke left either. Only Luke knows the truth, and his recollection has nothing to do with Snoke. It has to do with him seeing Ben turn evil. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
divica Posted January 14, 2019 Share Posted January 14, 2019 1 minute ago, Kalbear said: That's what Leia wants to believe. She's wrong. And Ren proves that pretty heavily later when he kills his dad. But she doesn't know, because she doesn't know that Luke almost killed him. She doesn't know why Luke left either. Only Luke knows the truth, and his recollection has nothing to do with Snoke. It has to do with him seeing Ben turn evil. He sees ben turning evil because snoke is influencing him. I am 90% sure luke says it… And you have no idea what leia knows or doesn t know... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kalbear Posted January 14, 2019 Share Posted January 14, 2019 1 minute ago, divica said: He sees ben turning evil because snoke is influencing him. I am 90% sure luke says it… He does say that snoke had been influencing his heart, but until then he didn't know about Snoke, and as it turns out Luke was wrong. 1 minute ago, divica said: And you have no idea what leia knows or doesn t know... Yes we do, because if Leia knew why Luke had left she would have not been surprised when he was gone. Heck, she has a force connection and then loses it! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
divica Posted January 14, 2019 Share Posted January 14, 2019 1 minute ago, Kalbear said: He does say that snoke had been influencing his heart, but until then he didn't know about Snoke, and as it turns out Luke was wrong. wtf? first I don t understand what you are saying in this sentence. Second, how was luke wrong? why do you say he didn t know about snoke? I am pretty sure someone says that snoke deceived them all… Lets talk about what peolpe actually say in the movie and not information that you are getting from somewhere... But most importantly. Thank you for saying that I was right and that snoke was around at the same time as luke! 1 minute ago, Kalbear said: Yes we do, because if Leia knew why Luke had left she would have not been surprised when he was gone. Heck, she has a force connection and then loses it! She knew luke didn t reach ben. Does she ever say she didn t know why luke left? Because I don t remember it... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darth Richard II Posted January 14, 2019 Share Posted January 14, 2019 You guys get a hold of some of the bad drugs from the X-men thread? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bastard of Bournemouth Posted January 14, 2019 Share Posted January 14, 2019 24 minutes ago, Kalbear said: That's what Leia wants to believe. She's wrong. And Ren proves that pretty heavily later when he kills his dad. But she doesn't know, because she doesn't know that Luke almost killed him. She doesn't know why Luke left either. Only Luke knows the truth, and his recollection has nothing to do with Snoke. It has to do with him seeing Ben turn evil. I've not read the books. Did Leia reverse- engineer her theory of corruption based on Snoke when he revealed himself as a Sith mastermind, or did she at least have an awareness of someone called Snoke at the time of the Luke/Ren conflict? I see what you're saying, but Luke does mention Snoke in the last Jedi - and he kind of seems familiar with his "Snokeness" LUKE: I went to confront him. And he turned on me... He must have thought I was dead. When I came to, the temple was burning. He had vanished with a handful of my students. And slaughtered the rest. Leia blamed Snoke, but it was me. I failed. Because I was Luke Skywalker. Jedi master. A legend. The phrasing of Leia's feelings - she 'blamed' , could mean that she came to blame Snoke after the event (still in the past from Luke's perspective) but it could refer to the specific time of the fight. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bastard of Bournemouth Posted January 14, 2019 Share Posted January 14, 2019 5 minutes ago, Darth Richard II said: You guys get a hold of some of the bad drugs from the X-men thread? The First order don't admit any gay stormtroopers. Says so in the Novels. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kalbear Posted January 14, 2019 Share Posted January 14, 2019 40 minutes ago, divica said: wtf? first I don t understand what you are saying in this sentence. Second, how was luke wrong? why do you say he didn t know about snoke? I am pretty sure someone says that snoke deceived them all… Lets talk about what peolpe actually say in the movie and not information that you are getting from somewhere... Leia says that, and she was wrong. Clearly. The notion that Ben was somehow corrupted is proven wrong. The thing that Luke gets wrong is that Ben is destined for evil - there's no redeeming him. It's his choice, and he wants it to go that way. Luke's instinct was to strike him down - the same instinct that let him blow up the death star, the same instinct that led him to spare his father, the same instinct that had him go to rescue his friends. His instinct has always been right. But he couldn't do that to his nephew, and Ren made his choice. 40 minutes ago, divica said: But most importantly. Thank you for saying that I was right and that snoke was around at the same time as luke! We still don't know that he was; only that Luke later became aware of him. Another way to say it is this: if Luke knew that there was a really bad-ass jedi out there trying to manipulate his students, why didn't Luke go after him? The only explanation that makes any sense is that Luke did not know who Snoke was. He just knew some random guy out there was influencing Ben, or that he was being influenced by someone, and later found it out - but otherwise he couldn't do anything. Again, a lot of this bullshit is bullshit because of the beats that TFA laid down. 40 minutes ago, divica said: She knew luke didn t reach ben. Does she ever say she didn t know why luke left? Because I don t remember it... Luke point blank says she didn't know, so yes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
felice Posted January 14, 2019 Share Posted January 14, 2019 12 minutes ago, Kalbear said: Leia says that, and she was wrong. Clearly. The notion that Ben was somehow corrupted is proven wrong. The thing that Luke gets wrong is that Ben is destined for evil - there's no redeeming him. That's a pretty poor fit with TFA having him struggling to resist the temptation of the light side... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kalbear Posted January 14, 2019 Share Posted January 14, 2019 5 minutes ago, felice said: That's a pretty poor fit with TFA having him struggling to resist the temptation of the light side... I don't see him as struggling that much, honestly. He says he is, but he doesn't take any actions indicating that at all. He constantly kills old friends and people he knows, he wipes people out without any issue, and the only time he even hints at reluctance is when he is luring Han to a shady, dramatic death. Snoke even taunts him about it and then tells us (in TLJ) that he uses Ren's insecurity as a weapon against Ren to manipulate him into doing what he wants him to. I think TFA was meant to give us an idea that he might have some reluctance, but between him killing Han and later events in TLJ, it's pretty clear that he's (at least for now) not the redemption type. Luke certainly didn't think that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heartofice Posted January 15, 2019 Share Posted January 15, 2019 11 hours ago, Kalbear said: One of the reasons that I love TLJ is because it got dealt a really shitty hand in TFA, and then figures out some fairly ingenious ways to dig itself out of the hole while setting up future writers to be far more free. Snoke is quite frankly a bullshit villain that we shouldn't and don't care about, so we'll just kill him and move on to people we do care about. The resistance is lazy and a retread, so we'll essentially obliterate them and give a new start to the whole thing. Rey's parents are a silly mystery that will never have a good answer (and is a "who is Luke's real father" thing to it) so we'll give the answer no one expects - which is that Rey's history is nothing special. Luke fucking off and ignoring the rise of the First Order is something that the Luke we knew would NEVER FUCKING DO, so we make him a bitter man fueled by his failure - because that's essentially the only logical thing left (otherwise, he would have come back and helped). Oh I agree that TFA started the ball rolling in the crappy story ideas chain of events. Where I think we disagree is to how TLJ handles that very real problem it was handed. When it comes to Snoke, TFA sets him up to be the big bad, the way he is presented and introduced the audience assumes that he will be the main presence in the upcoming movies. Now I never liked this big old CGI pizzaface guy, but Rian Johnson I think tried to get too clever here and fell down on basic storytelling principles. Killing off Snoke in Johnsons head probably sounds very clever. However my reaction to it was not " Aha, you have subverted my expectations, therefore I am happy", it was "So everything I've watched around Snoke was an utter waste of time?!" which clearly leaves a bad taste in ones mouth. The resistance, was lazy and a retread, we all agree. But by subverting the story and killing them off so easily, you again have wasted our time and cut off a thread of story that was at least going somewhere. Now we are simply back at square one. Nothing has been accomplished, the universe is back to where it started. Yawn. I did like that Reys parentage was apparently so inconsequential. Star Wars needs to be about a wider universe, not a very specific gene pool. This was the one time I was happy for Johnson to play this card. TLJ has a TON of storytelling problems, it makes a series of key poor decisions and has so many eye-rolling moments that I cannot forgive. TFA is a far less ambitious movie than TLJ, its quite lazy and cowardly in many of the choices it has made, but for me its a more coherent 'better' movie. It at the very least has very few outright 'bad' moments, and TLJ has far too many of them. Maybe if Johnson had stuck to the lazy blueprint he could have gotten something more watchable out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jace, Extat Posted January 15, 2019 Share Posted January 15, 2019 26 minutes ago, Heartofice said: Oh I agree that TFA started the ball rolling in the crappy story ideas chain of events. Where I think we disagree is to how TLJ handles that very real problem it was handed. When it comes to Snoke, TFA sets him up to be the big bad, the way he is presented and introduced the audience assumes that he will be the main presence in the upcoming movies. Now I never liked this big old CGI pizzaface guy, but Rian Johnson I think tried to get too clever here and fell down on basic storytelling principles. Killing off Snoke in Johnsons head probably sounds very clever. However my reaction to it was not " Aha, you have subverted my expectations, therefore I am happy", it was "So everything I've watched around Snoke was an utter waste of time?!" which clearly leaves a bad taste in ones mouth. The resistance, was lazy and a retread, we all agree. But by subverting the story and killing them off so easily, you again have wasted our time and cut off a thread of story that was at least going somewhere. Now we are simply back at square one. Nothing has been accomplished, the universe is back to where it started. Yawn. I did like that Reys parentage was apparently so inconsequential. Star Wars needs to be about a wider universe, not a very specific gene pool. This was the one time I was happy for Johnson to play this card. TLJ has a TON of storytelling problems, it makes a series of key poor decisions and has so many eye-rolling moments that I cannot forgive. TFA is a far less ambitious movie than TLJ, its quite lazy and cowardly in many of the choices it has made, but for me its a more coherent 'better' movie. It at the very least has very few outright 'bad' moments, and TLJ has far too many of them. Maybe if Johnson had stuck to the lazy blueprint he could have gotten something more watchable out. This is well presented and an accurate analysis. Abrams did the minimum and got exactly what the studio wanted, a recognizable Star Wars film. Someone referred to it as plagiarism in one of these threads and if you throw the words 'Intellectual Property Mandated' in front of it they've got a hell of a soundbite. Johnson tried to branch out but a combination of contempt for his audience and fucking stupid ideas left us with what we all know and condemn as The Last Jedi. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heartofice Posted January 15, 2019 Share Posted January 15, 2019 1 minute ago, Jace, Basilissa said: This is well presented and an accurate analysis. Abrams did the minimum and got exactly what the studio wanted, a recognizable Star Wars film. Someone referred to it as plagiarism in one of these threads and if you throw the words 'Intellectual Property Mandated' in front of it they've got a hell of a soundbite. Johnson tried to branch out but a combination of contempt for his audience and fucking stupid ideas left us with what we all know and condemn as The Last Jedi. Honestly I don't know what happened with Johnson's movie, there are so many conflicting parts within it that I suspect something happened behind the scenes. While I really do not rate Johnson as a film maker ( dislike most of his movies in retrospect) I do think that he at least comes at movies with a particular vision and sticks to it. Which is why I find it hard to understand how he signed off on the Casino section of the movie or many of the other odd decisions that were made. Maybe he wasn't strong enough to stand up to some of the higher ups at Disney, I don't know. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jace, Extat Posted January 15, 2019 Share Posted January 15, 2019 6 minutes ago, Heartofice said: Honestly I don't know what happened with Johnson's movie, there are so many conflicting parts within it that I suspect something happened behind the scenes. While I really do not rate Johnson as a film maker ( dislike most of his movies in retrospect) I do think that he at least comes at movies with a particular vision and sticks to it. Which is why I find it hard to understand how he signed off on the Casino section of the movie or many of the other odd decisions that were made. Maybe he wasn't strong enough to stand up to some of the higher ups at Disney, I don't know. Plinkett's 'madcap comedy' theory is as likely as any I can come up with. And that's a damning statement if I've ever made one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derfel Cadarn Posted January 15, 2019 Share Posted January 15, 2019 11 hours ago, Darth Richard II said: You guys get a hold of some of the bad drugs from the X-men thread? A bad death stick trip. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heartofice Posted January 15, 2019 Share Posted January 15, 2019 8 minutes ago, Jace, Basilissa said: Plinkett's 'madcap comedy' theory is as likely as any I can come up with. And that's a damning statement if I've ever made one. Luke drinks milk from dinosaur tits. Thats the most damning description of the movie I can imagine. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jace, Extat Posted January 15, 2019 Share Posted January 15, 2019 New thread, Nerds. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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