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5 minutes ago, felice said:

What Force powers? He's got great awareness/reflexes due to his connection to the Force, but as far as I recall we don't see him do anything actually supernatural till after he's had ten years of training. The ridiculousness of his mechanical skills was overshadowed by the unbelievable coincidence of him building Threepio and the stupidity of him blowing up the Trade Federation ship by accident.

Well it;s been a while but wasn't the reason he was able to Pod Race was that he could see a few seconds into the future thus his reflexes were crazy?

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Just now, Darth Richard II said:

Well it;s been a while but wasn't the reason he was able to Pod Race was that he could see a few seconds into the future thus his reflexes were crazy?

The reason was midichlorians. Or, if the Auralnauts parody of The Phantom Menace is correct, heroin.

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6 minutes ago, Werthead said:

Rey also appears to be far stronger in the Force than Ren, which allowed her raw strength to overpower his apparently superior training.

Last Jedi emphasises how equal they are, with them both pulling on the lightsaber till it breaks in half.

6 minutes ago, Werthead said:

The suggestion that flying a crop duster would allow you to pilot something far more advanced than an F-35 is...fanciful, at best, and the explanations why this is logical strain credulity, as generally speaking controls are not standardised between two completely different classes of vehicle

What makes you think the T-16 is a crop duster? The moisture farm doesn't appear to have any crops, and the only thing established about it in the movie is that it's armed. It seems reasonable to assume it's the same class of vehicle as the X-wing minus the hyperdrive, in controls if not performance.

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6 minutes ago, felice said:

What makes you think the T-16 is a crop duster? The moisture farm doesn't appear to have any crops, and the only thing established about it in the movie is that it's armed. It seems reasonable to assume it's the same class of vehicle as the X-wing minus the hyperdrive, in controls if not performance.

He thinks that because it suits his argument.  Read his previous post.  He starts with "The contortions people go through to make Rey a Mary Sue" and then goes through contortions to try and prove she's not.  It would be hilariously hypocritical if I wasn't sure he was posting it as a joke.

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1 minute ago, Slurktan said:

He thinks that because it suits his argument.  Read his previous post.  He starts with "The contortions people go through to make Rey a Mary Sue" and then goes through contortions to try and prove she's not.  It would be hilariously hypocritical if I wasn't sure he was posting it as a joke.

Logic, facts and precedent are "contortions"? Well, I suppose when I leave you with no counter-arguments to muster, that's one approach. Bit of a strange hill to die on, but there we go.

Might want to go away, give a good, long hard think and come back with some better arguments than some reheated talking points from Reddit Incel communities that were contemptuously disproven as utter drivel three years ago.

Good luck with that.

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Posted (edited)
5 hours ago, Deadlines? What Deadlines? said:

Yeah, my car has a steering wheel and pedals and a formula one car has a steering wheel and pedals, ipso facto, just give me the trophy and the cash right now.  After all, we wouldn't want to embarrass anyone.

And going up against tie fighters and tubo laser turrets is totally the same thing as dusting crops.

That's the point of the luck.  Luke doesn't blow up the Death Star with skill.  He essentially closes his eyes and shoots and the force makes it go in.  Same thing with Anakin in Phantom Menace.  That's the point. He doesn't make it go in, the force does.  If for example instead of Rey doing the ridiculously complicated maneouvre(without a copilot) in order to get Finn's gun pointed directly at the tie fighter (with no previous piloting experience) she instead tried to do something steering-wise but the falcon stalls out and  then ended up in the exact position needed for Finn to blast it because of Luck.  That would be comparable to Luke and Anakin.

Wert talks up Luke like he is the second coming of christ, instead he blindly shoots at death star surface (happens to take out a gun, kills one tie fighter that doesn't see him at all because it's focused on Biggs, almost gets killed by a tie, almost gets killed by vader, then fires a blind shot that happens to go in  If you want to count his ESB experience he flies a snowspeeder inbetween legs and gets shot twice, with the second time making him crash.  What an ace pilot.

EDIT:  I forgot Luke almost kills himself by flying too close to the Death Star as well.  Well done Luke.

Edited by Slurktan

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Posted (edited)
6 minutes ago, Werthead said:

Logic, facts and precedent are "contortions"? Well, I suppose when I leave you with no counter-arguments to muster, that's one approach. Bit of a strange hill to die on, but there we go.

Might want to go away, give a good, long hard think and come back with some better arguments than some reheated talking points from Reddit Incel communities that were contemptuously disproven as utter drivel three years ago.

Good luck with that.

Logic is making up shit with flight simulators?  Right.  Keep taking those drugs chum. Hilariously hypocritical it is then.

Edited by Slurktan

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8 minutes ago, Werthead said:

So let's take it from the top: Rey learned her mechanic skills from being a scavenger (you have to know WTF bits of a Star Destroyer are useful and which are not)

Being able to identify a spark plug or a crack in carburetor doesn't mean I'm a mechanic. I think. Maybe I should tear down my car engine and see what happens... In the real world there certainly are people who scavenge scrap metal and parts, such as the various places where shipbreaking is a thing. They aren't all suddenly mechanical wizards, though. Some might be, however, it's true. 

But the issue isn't that she's an ace mechanic.

 

But the issue isn't that Rey's a great pilot.

8 minutes ago, Werthead said:

 

and completely unmentioned off-screen special forces training simulator that allowed him to gun down multiple Imperial crack troops in ranged combat which no one mentions as being odd at all, so that seems fairly equal.

But the issue isn't that Rey is a pretty good shot (IIRC?).

8 minutes ago, Werthead said:

Rey's scavenger lifestyle sees her frequently battling rival scavengers for supplies and salvage, so she would need to develop hand-to-hand fighting skills, and she's doing that for years on end. 

But the issue isn't that she's a skilled fighter.

8 minutes ago, Werthead said:

Ren had just been shot by Chewie's bowcaster, was bleeding all over the place, was probably a bit PTSDed out from just killing his dad and he was suffering additional injuries from Finn (First Order Stormtroopers are specifically trained to fight Jedi in melee combat, as shown earlier on in the "TRAITOR!" scene), plus Ren was trying to capture or disable Rey, not kill her. Rey also appears to be far stronger in the Force than Ren, which allowed her raw strength to overpower his apparently superior training. I mean, the film goes to some lengths to explain this stuff. It even had frigging Obi-Wan talking to her and her mind-reading Kylo Ren just before she mind-controlled Daniel Craig, showing she was getting outside help (as clearly precedented by the Force Ghosts in multiple earlier films).

But the issue isn't that she's able to use a lightsaber with sufficient skill to defeat a wounded, angry Ren, or that she's able to do stuff with the Force that exceeds what other people do almost instantly upon realizing she's able to use it.

The issue is that she's _all_ of these things, while having been a subsistence-level orphan on a backwater world since she was a child. 

The writers decided that she had to be good at all these sorts of things rather than saying, "Okay, an orphaned scavenger girl is going to be tough, resourceful, probably knows how to fight... and of course, we'll reveal she's strong in the Force later on. Mechanical issues? Piloting? Not her forte, she'll need help. Hey, lets give her a cute droid sidekick who can deal with the mechanical issues, and maybe we can figure out how to get her in touch with a pilot when she needs one...."

8 minutes ago, Werthead said:

The suggestion that flying a crop duster would allow you to pilot something far more advanced than an F-35 is...fanciful, at best,

Who says an X-Wing is far more than advanced to fly than the T-16 in the Star Wars universe, anyways? This is a setting where the basic technology behind these craft is thousands of years old. We literally are told people can slap various pieces of junk together and make a spacecraft, something that in our world and reality costs many, many millions of dollars and years of effort to achieve. Other than types of weaponry, armor, hyperdrive, R2 unit, and such add-ons, there's no reason to think that fundamentals of flying an X-Wing is any more or less difficult than flying a T-16.

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Wert talks up Luke like he is the second coming of christ, instead he blindly shoots at death star surface (happens to take out a gun, kills one tie fighter that doesn't see him at all because it's focused on Biggs, almost gets killed by a tie, almost gets killed by vader, then fires a blind shot that happens to go in  If you want to count his ESB experience he flies a snowspeeder inbetween legs and gets shot twice, with the second time making him crash.  What an ace pilot.

Ah. You see, there's also a scene earlier on in the movie where Luke shoots down two TIE Fighters from the Millennium Falcon, y'know, gained from his amazing experience in shooting down loads of enemy spacecraft piloted by expert pilots in his life up to that point

Have you actually watched A New Hope? Your comments make me wonder.

I also note you haven't addressed the point about a farmboy killing dozens of crack stormtroopers in combat despite presumably never firing a gun in anger before in his entire life (lest we count against rats of the womping kind) and how this is plausible. Almost like you're cherry-picking facts to suit your....well, "argument" is a bit of a strong word, so let's just settle for "hypocrisy"...and ignoring everything that contradicts it. Which is a lot.

I've got to run, so I'll look at Ran's altogether more cogent points tomorrow ;) 

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3 hours ago, Werthead said:

Ah. You see, there's also a scene earlier on in the movie where Luke shoots down two TIE Fighters from the Millennium Falcon, y'know, gained from his amazing experience in shooting down loads of enemy spacecraft piloted by expert pilots in his life up to that point

In all fairness to Luke, I probably could have done that too.  Because the first time I saw that I was six years old and I was like, "THAT WAS AWESOME!!! I COULD TOTALLY SHOOT THAT ENEMY GUY WITH GUN AND THE CHAIR AND THE THING PEW PEW PEW..." It goes on like that. 

I'm sure if they had the internet in ancient Greece, there would have been a forum just like this where some clever so-and-so would be like:

"Listen asshole, I don't care how strong you say that kid is.  With those chubby digits, there's just no way infant Heracles could have the manual dexterity to strangle those damn snakes.  I'm off to get burrito. Later, bitches."

 

 

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The reason Rey is disliked so much is, yes because she is seen as a Mary Sue that can do anything which as this thread shows can be debated with both sides making good points. However, there is another facet to the megativity towards Rey.

After The Force Awakens Rey, Ren, Finn, Poe, the majority of fans were on board with all these new characters, enthused by the infusion of new characters with new arcs in the series.

After The Last Jedi, many became disgruntled with Rey because it seemed she was upstaging the legacy characters not having the torch passed to her by them. Many fans resented this and it also caused them to reevaluate her role in The Force Awakens as well and not to her benefit.

The faction that hates her because she's a girl is the same bunch that hated Mad Max Fury Road because they felt Furiosa had a bigger role than Max, and Ghostbusters (2016) just because it was all women. They are losers and inconsequential.

The disgruntled SW fans as a whole is consequential though. Most of these fans are same fans that love Ripley in the Alien franchise, Sara Connor in the Terminator movies, they loved Mad Max: Fury Road, they loved Wonder Woman, they loved X-23 in Logan,they love Arya in GOT as one of the best characters. They are some of the same fans that hated Ghostbusters (2016) not because it starred women, but because it was a garbage movie.

Fans are very accepting of franchises to change, adapt, move on, accepting of new characters, but one thing they (we) can get anal about is when we feel a new direction is shitting on the legacies of the earlier characters. It was those actors and the characters they portrayed that made them love whatever franchise in the first place, they just want to seem them be treated the story with the respect they deserve as they exit the franchise, are reinterpreted, recast, whatever.

Whether you think they are justified in their feelings or not, it's a more complicated and more legitimate reason than "they hated it cause girls are yucky to them" and seems disingenuous to simplify it as such.

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10 hours ago, felice said:

He used to bullseye womprats! Which experienced rebel pilots thought were an unreasonably small target.

Did they? I feel like there's a whole lot of inference going on in that sentence.

10 hours ago, Switzeran said:

I'm not sure why they felt they _needed_ to make her so  competent _and_ give her that backstory which made it hard to credit that she would be able to be so good at so many things at such a young age. 

Probably because they did not see those things as being in conflict. For good or ill, it's a common Hollywood trope that extreme competence comes out of extreme hardship.

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11 hours ago, Darth Richard II said:

And let’s be honest, people care cause she’s a girl and has cooties.

Will you please stop lumping everyone into your little ball of Incel? It's so incredibly insulting, and stupid. 

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Posted (edited)
9 minutes ago, Darth Richard II said:

Ah geez, did I hit a nerve there?

I mean, that's fucking laughable. The fact that you would even make a comment like that says a LOT about you, and how little you know about me. You're just being an asshole, over Star Wars of all things. 

Ask yourself why you cant handle people disliking some shitty Disney movies without you calling them Nazis and woman haters. You might find a deep emptiness inside you as part of the answer. 

Edited by Relic

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, Darth Richard II said:

Edit: meh, forget it

cool

Edited by Relic

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7 minutes ago, Darth Richard II said:

Ah geez, did I hit a nerve there?

I have to say I do find it somewhat annoying as well.

There certainly are assholes who are bothered only because Rey is female.

Then there are assholes like me who think that her character is just badly written in that first movie (I think she's much better in TLJ).  

 

 

 

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40 minutes ago, Switzeran said:

Then there are assholes like me who think that her character is just badly written in that first movie (I think she's much better in TLJ).  

That's weird. I see the reverse as a much more notable problem. Because The Last Jedi begins nanoseconds after The Force Awakens finishes, it introduces a new problem where Rey's improvements in skills between movies are illogical (because there's no time, whilst Luke at least has those 3 years between IV and V, and 1 year between V and VI). This is most notable in the throne room battle sequence where Rey suddenly kills a bunch of Imperial Guards with some very impressive pyrotechnic lightsabre displays which appear to be far more advanced than what she was capable of fighting Kylo Ren at the end of TFA.

I sometimes wonder if there was an early draft of TLJ where things went down as predictably as it appears a lot of people want - Rey spends months learing elite skillz from Luke and then goes out to fuck some shit up - and the shooting script wasn't entirely adjusted to reflect the change to everything happening in five minutes.

 

Quote

 

After The Last Jedi, many became disgruntled with Rey because it seemed she was upstaging the legacy characters not having the torch passed to her by them. Many fans resented this and it also caused them to reevaluate her role in The Force Awakens as well and not to her benefit.

 Fans are very accepting of franchises to change, adapt, move on, accepting of new characters, but one thing they (we) can get anal about is when we feel a new direction is shitting on the legacies of the earlier characters. It was those actors and the characters they portrayed that made them love whatever franchise in the first place, they just want to seem them be treated the story with the respect they deserve as they exit the franchise, are reinterpreted, recast, whatever.

 

This argument is basically, "the movie is not adhering to the fanfiction we've had in our heads for 30 years therefore it sucks."

Rey finding Luke, Luke going Full Yoda on her, training her up and then Luke dying in a blaze of glory and "passing the torch" is predictable, cliched and trite, and although The Last Jedi has a colossal list of problems, the Luke/Rey storyline is definitely not one of them. 

Ideally, we'd have been able to pick up the sequel trilogy quickly enough after the original movies to have made continuing to have Luke, Leia and Han as main characters viable, like Heir to the Empire, and the story could have gone in a different direction where we see the characters react to events in-situ (as in the EU) rather than having to skip forward 30 years of character development in a flash. But Luke's position in TLJ is reasonable, if a little derivative of Kenobi in ANH and Yoda in ESB (it also doesn't help the foundational Star Wars problem of why anyone trains Jedi at all, as their failure/Dark Side rate seems to be ridiculously high).

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