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Kandrax

[Book spoilers] Plot holes that aren't in the books

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, Dragon in the North said:

A plot hole is a very specific criticism that involves a plot point that directly contradicts the logic presented in the story. For example, if Tyrion had said that Doran had two sons, and then later had one, that would have been a plot hole. But they kept the wording vague, possibly because they weren’t sure what they were going to do with the Dornish plot yet. If there is a possible explanation, like all of those “ maybes” and “may haves” I put in my post, it can’t be considered a plot hole. However, you can call it bad writing all you want.

I disagree with your definition of a plot hole then, I wouldn't say it is only a direct contradiction. Using Wikipedia's definition (I know it's not the best but...) Plot hole is a gap or inconsistency in a story line that goes against the flow of logic established by the story's plot. Plot holes can be contradictions obviously, but they are not limited to them.

Several of the things that you say are not plot holes would be in that case. So understanding your definition of plot hole, I get why you would say the things you did.

edit: formatting issues in my post..

Edited by btfu806
formatting issues in post

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2 hours ago, btfu806 said:

I disagree with your definition of a plot hole then, I wouldn't say it is only a direct contradiction. Using Wikipedia's definition (I know it's not the best but...) Plot hole is a gap or inconsistency in a story line that goes against the flow of logic established by the story's plot. Plot holes can be contradictions obviously, but they are not limited to them.

Several of the things that you say are not plot holes would be in that case. So understanding your definition of plot hole, I get why you would say the things you did.

edit: formatting issues in my post..

That sounds similar to the definition I gave. I believe contradiction and inconsistency are synonymous, or are at least closely related to one another.

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On ‎7‎/‎12‎/‎2018 at 6:51 AM, Dragon in the North said:

5. Not a plot hole. Mirri Maz Durr could have told her off screen.

Sorry, but assuming that pretty crucial information was given offscreen is assuming s***** storytelling.

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7 minutes ago, Rhodan said:

Sorry, but assuming that pretty crucial information was given offscreen is assuming s***** storytelling.

Yes, I consider it to be bad writing, but I don’t consider it a plot hole.

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Posted (edited)
23 hours ago, btfu806 said:

I disagree with your definition of a plot hole then, I wouldn't say it is only a direct contradiction. Using Wikipedia's definition (I know it's not the best but...) Plot hole is a gap or inconsistency in a story line that goes against the flow of logic established by the story's plot. Plot holes can be contradictions obviously, but they are not limited to them.

Several of the things that you say are not plot holes would be in that case. So understanding your definition of plot hole, I get why you would say the things you did.

edit: formatting issues in my post..

Contradict almost literally means go against.

Does this sentence sound any different: Plot hole is a gap or inconsistency in a story line that contradicts the flow of logic established by the story's plot.

The term plot hole is grossly overused. Most of these examples are just cruddy writing.

Edited by Valyrian Lance

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Posted (edited)
On 7/12/2018 at 12:51 AM, Dragon in the North said:

5. Not a plot hole. Mirri Maz Durr could have told her off screen.

12. Not a plot hole. First off, not sure why this is classified as fan service. I don't remember anyone begging for this to happen. Second, it's perfectly possible to sneak out of bed without waking someone up. She could have killed the guard quietly.

14. Not a plot hole. Xaro may have had lax security or Dany's forces may have caught them by surprise.

15. Not a plot hole. Robb only knows that they headed off to home, not that they actually made it. They may have been camped out at Moat Cailin into Ramsay took the castle. Pod and Brienne may have taken a row boat, similar to the one she and Jaime took, and simply rowed around it.

19. Not a plot hole. Littlefinger made a mistake. Humans are capable of making mistakes.

20. Not a plot hole. Shae wasn't Tyrion's motive for seeking Tywin out. Tywin's treatment of Tyrion for his entire life was the reason Tyrion entered Tywin's bed chamber.

21. Not a plot hole. Prophecies are shown to be unreliable in GOT, as shown by Melisandre's incorrect prediction that Stannis would win the Battle for Winterfell. The witch incorrectly predicting that Cersei would only have three children doesn't  make it a plot hole.

24. I don't think plot hole is the right word, but fine. Let's call it a plot hole. Sansa and Theon should either be dead or seriously injured.

29. Not a plot hole. Tyrion said he would marrry Myrcella off to the youngest son of House Martell, which happened to be Trystane.

30. Not a plot hole. Varys may not be aware of Visery's personality or was planning to kill Viserys off once he produced a male Targaryen heir.

32. Not a plot hole. It was not at all clear that Brienne wanted to take Arya back to King's Landing. She just figured that Arya was safest with her by her side. She may even have taken Arya to Tarth, where her family would protect her.

34. Not a plot hole. It may have been completely abandoned after Stannis left, and it's geography and strategic importance may be different in the show. Besides, events in King's Landing may have distracted Cersei and she may not have thought about taking Dragonstone.

36. My memory may be foggy. The only time I remember Jon using his Valyrian steel sword on a wight was when he did that 360 move at Hardhome and cut the wight to pieces. Were there scenes that specifically showed that Longclaw was ineffective? Also, in season 7, did Jon say that Valyrian steel can kill wights? I only remember him saying fire and dragonglass. 

5.  While I do agree that it isn't technically a plot hole, it's definitely information that should have been given where the audience could hear it.  Her being barren was going to be important later, of course people were likely to look back at the scene and be confused about where Daenerys got that information since it wasn't explicitly stated. 

12.  Yeah I don't agree with this being a plot hole either, I'm not sure I understand the article's reasoning for why this would be a plot hole.  Osha had no way of knowing that Ramsay tortured Theon and learned about how Osha helped the Starks escape.  She really didn't have any way of knowing that Ramsay and Theon even interacted.  I disagree wholeheartedly with the decision to bring Osha back after she had been gone for three seasons just to kill her off after a few more minutes of screen time (just have the new Lord Umber bring in Rickon and talk about how they disposed of the wildling off screen), but it is plausible that she would walk into this thinking she had the upper hand and fail miserably.  

14.  I mean Ser Jorah isn't totally useless in combat and neither are the Dothraki.  I think what the OP is saying is that it's unbelievable they got into the guy's bedroom without a commotion loud enough to wake Xaro up.  Lax security or not, Dothraki aren't known for their stealth.  

15.  Yeah I wondered about this too, I would agree though it's a plot hole.  Not being able to pass by Moat Cailin was something vital to the plot.

19.  Yeah but this is a really amateur mistake that we would expect from anyone besides Littlefinger.  Just the fact he would not know that the guys with a flayed man on their banner who just also happened to betray and murder Sansa's older brother, may not be the most hospitable or trustworthy people, it's just an assassination of almost everything we've seen about Littlefinger up to this point.  The Littlefinger from seasons 1-4 was arguably the best game player in the show.  Seasons 5-7 it's a wonder the guy knew how to spell his name.

20.  No, actually it is a pretty big inconsistency.  In the commentary track for "The Children" the director, I forget his name, said the Tysha reveal was scripted but they apparently did a few takes it didn't fit so Dan and David recommended him shortening Jaime and Tyrion's final scene.  When Tyrion confronted Tywin the script actually called for him to address Tysha but since she was omitted it looks like they compromised by literally keeping the dialogue and just changing Tysha to Shae.  Which I could write twenty paragraphs about how stupid that was, but at the very least it did make a lot less sense.  

21.  I think this is no more complicated than Cersei lying to Catelyn in some attempt at showing empathy.  

24.  I mean we did just see Myranda fall from this same height and become hamburger meat upon impact immediately prior to this.  From a visual storytelling standpoint it's hard to get a sense of how high the snow is.  If anything they should have shown the landing and shown Theon and Sansa cushioned by high snow.  Leaving it as a cliffhanger makes it much easier to poke at because it doesn't really look like the snow is that high.  

29.  Yeah I never agreed with calling this one a plot hole.  He's technically correct, Dorne's politics seemed kind of irrelevant.  I always just assumed Tyrion didn't know how many kids Doran had or their names and just said, the youngest son.  If you want to look at a serious Dornish plot hole, let's not forget that a kingsguard was clearly seen accompanying Myrcella to Dorne and then was nowhere to be found after that.

30.  It's all just best guess with the Varys retcon.  I think one line of dialogue would have fixed this:  "King Robert, at the behest of Tywin Lannister had Pycelle read correspondence prepared by myself and Petyr Baelish to ensure our words were true.  The message to Jorah was a legitimate pardon on the surface, but a coded message upon further inspection."  Clunky, but honestly what in season 7 wasn't?

32.  Brienne made a vow to protect Catelyn's children and was ultimately just thinking they were better off with her where ever she happened to be.  Not really so much a plot hole or bad writing, just Brienne's character.  She didn't think about what the vow might actually entail or how she was going to actually protect Arya.  I believe it. 

34.  Cersei is a competent game player, but she's not an expert on warfare.  I agree with you, I don't think it's a plot hole at all, I think she just didn't consider the possibility of Daenerys ever actually getting across the narrow sea.  To be honest for about six seasons I was pretty skeptical as to whether or not it was ever going to happen.  

36.  I can't remember a time where we ever see a wight's body after it's been cut up by Longclaw.  I seem to remember in season 7 Jon cutting up wights beyond the wall and them being down for the count without being burned.  I'll look out for it next time I rewatch any episodes with wights but I don't think the camera ever shows them after they've been hacked up by Longclaw.  It's entirely possible the show actually shows us they are "killed" by Longclaw and I just didn't notice it.

Edited by YoungGriff89
Changing consistency to inconsistency in point 20. And later edited to correct point 12. I didn't realize the OP was just quoting an article.

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21 hours ago, YoungGriff89 said:

OP is saying is that it's unbelieva

This are not my words, i just copied from tvtropes

 

21 hours ago, YoungGriff89 said:

think this is no more complicated than Cersei lying to Catelyn in some attempt at showing empathy

This is could be case, if Cersei didn't mentioned child in private conversation with Robert.

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Posted (edited)
10 hours ago, Kandrax said:

This are not my words, i just copied from tvtropes

 

This is could be case, if Cersei didn't mentioned child in private conversation with Robert.

Yeah sorry I didn’t notice you were just quoting the article until after I posted.  I actually fixed it on a different point.  I’ll have to rewatch season one, I didn’t even remember Cersei and Robert discussing it.

Season one, episode five:  blink and you miss it line about losing their first boy.  I've seen that episode more than once and that line never even registered to me. 

Edited by YoungGriff89
Adding where Cersei addresses her first child that died.

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