The Fate and Purpose of the Greyjoy Kids

[BlackLightning]

So, let's talk about the Greyjoys. As of the end of A Dance with Dragons: 

• Asha and Theon have reunited under the auspices of Stannis Baratheon 
• Aeron is being held prisoner (re: tortured) by Euron who preparing to face the Redwynes in what's bound to be one of the biggest/ugliest naval battles in the history of Planetos 
• Victarion is looking to court Daenerys Targaryen 

We've already talked and speculated a lot about the purpose of the Victarion/Daenerys and the Aeron/Euron stories...but I haven't seen too much of anything about Asha or Theon. What I have seen can be basically surmised as this: 

1. Theon dying within the first 100 pages of Winds, all post-mortem references and mentioning of him ceases by the end of Winds  
2. Asha simply disappears because she is pregnant (???)

It's patently obvious now that the Greyjoy family (and the Ironborn at large) have a big role to play in the series endgame (re: what is dead may never die). 

But what do guys think The Winds of Winter and A Dream of Spring has in store for the Greyjoy kids? Do you guys think that Balon's children are going to separate sometime in Winds (probably within the first half) and resume their own independent stories? Do you think that one of them will die? Or do you think that they will tag-team and start telling the same story from a diametrically opposed point-of-view? 

But I guess what I'm trying to say is what has been their purpose in this series?! 

For example: 

• Cersei is an exploration of the evil queen trope and the long-winded parable of how "money can't buy happiness," "beauty is only skin deep," and "people who lust after power and wealth don't have a clue what to do after they get it." 
• Arya's story is basically a fusion between Huckleberry Finn, Alice in Wonderland and Assassin's Creed. 
• Sansa's story is a delightfully dark deconstruction of the Little Mermaid, Red Riding Hood and every other fairy tale and fable where the protagonist is a girl or young woman. 
• Melisandre and Aeron are basically religious inversions of "The Little Train That Could" ("The Big Train That Thought It Could But It Ultimately Couldn't) 
• Tyrion is literally Breaking Bad. 
• Jon Snow is one-fourth Hamlet, one-fourth Harry Potter, one-fourth the Green Mile and one-fourth Rick Grimes. 

What of Theon and Asha? 

 

((Sorry, @La Albearceleste))

[Giant Ice Spider]

Victarion's purpose, at least in part, is for (or at least his ships) to bring Dany to Westeros. He is also here to kick ass.

Aeron is trickier. I think he's just a low-agency POV to show us what Euron is doing, to be honest. I know it isn't the most optimistic view of his character, but I cannot find any other purpose.

Asha also feels like a POV brought in so we could see what someone more important is doing. However, as I have stated in other threads, I do think a bit more is going to happen to her. I do think she's pregnant, but I don't think she'll disappear. At least part of her story arc will be dealing with (and perhaps looking after) her newborn.

Theon, it rhymes with "I have no idea what he's gonna do".

[BlackLightning]

42 minutes ago, Giant Ice Spider said:

Victarion's purpose, at least in part, is for (or at least his ships) to bring Dany to Westeros. He is also here to kick ass.

Aeron is trickier. I think he's just a low-agency POV to show us what Euron is doing, to be honest. I know it isn't the most optimistic view of his character, but I cannot find any other purpose.

Asha also feels like a POV brought in so we could see what someone more important is doing. However, as I have stated in other threads, I do think a bit more is going to happen to her. I do think she's pregnant, but I don't think she'll disappear. At least part of her story arc will be dealing with (and perhaps looking after) her newborn.

Theon, it rhymes with "I have no idea what he's gonna do".

Yeah because Asha and Theon both can't serve as POVs in Stannis' army.

Whenever POVs come together in the same place in the story, they tell different stories (Tyrion in Clash is ruling, Sansa in Clash is a prisoner of war) and, when they do tell the same story, it's only very temporary (Tyrion and Catelyn at the Eyrie in Game).

That's going to be hard to do for the Greyjoy kids because Stannis' army is relatively small and they have one mission. Both Asha and Theon are prisoners of Stannis for the foreseeable future. They are too far from coasts to just make a break for the Iron Islands. Melisandre and maybe Jon (if he's still somehow alive) are already at the Wall as POVs. Taking the Dreadfort is stupid, a request has already been made at White Harbor, and it's too late to go get some help from Greywater Watch.

Sure, we are in dire need of a POV in the Bolton camp inside Winterfell and Theon - if Stannis decides to spare him - can probably find a way back into the castle.

But why would he want to go back? Theon would rather be slow-cooked to death than risk falling back into Ramsay's web. Even if someone manages to talk or force Theon into doing it...

What's the point?

Asha's possible pregnancy and Theon's survival means absolutely nothing if they can't get back to Pyke.

Why are they doing Stark stuff when the show had them doing Ironborn+Daenerys stuff?

I just find it weird that no one seems to be talking about these two.

[aryagonnakill#2]

Well there seems to be some pretty strong foreshadowing that Theon not being at the Kingsmoot can undue it, but I also believe that the Ironborn words refer to Theon.  What is dead may never die, but rises again harder and stronger.

I don't see Theon dying at all personally, I think people are way off base with that.  I also don't see Bran skinchanging him at the tree.  It would be contrary to him re finding his identity.  He has come a long way since his worst state, his last chapter was called Theon, not some weird identity.

[Arya Greyjoy]

Theon will be the king of Pike that will change the future of the Iron men. It will implant the customs of Ned Stark and will change the bad reputation of his house.

Asha is just a boring and secondary character. A usurper.

Theon already has a son with the captain's girl. That will be his heir.

[Damon_Tor]

3 hours ago, Jabar of House Titan said:

But I guess what I'm trying to say is what has been their purpose in this series?!

There are a few functions of the Greyjoys, and of the Iron Islands/Ironborn in general.

1. The Grey King's bloodline is extremely important to the mythic scheming because...

2. The Seastone chair is a proto-Harrenhal, which will help us understand Harrenhal itself once we're mean to understand it which is important because...

3. Victarion will father Daenery's second child. The second line of the "bride of fire" quatrain is the hardest to make sense of, but Victarion fits it better than anybody else at this point.

Theon introduces the reader to these characters and these concepts. I don't think Asha was intended to be important when she was introduced, but GRRM liked the character well enough and she provided a useful POV. That's all. IMO, both are simply witnesses, neither are important.

[Tucu]

I have a pet crackpot theory that Theon will be the first "white shadow" (white walker) casted south of the Wall for thousands of years. If as I suspect the shadows are souls/shades/ghosts mixed with magic, then "The Ghost in Winterfell" would make a great WW after he is sacrificed under the weirwood.

[BlackLightning]

1 hour ago, Damon_Tor said:

There are a few functions of the Greyjoys, and of the Iron Islands/Ironborn in general.

1. The Grey King's bloodline is extremely important to the mythic scheming because...

2. The Seastone chair is a proto-Harrenhal, which will help us understand Harrenhal itself once we're mean to understand it which is important because...

3. Victarion will father Daenery's second child. The second line of the "bride of fire" quatrain is the hardest to make sense of, but Victarion fits it better than anybody else at this point.

Theon introduces the reader to these characters and these concepts. I don't think Asha was intended to be important when she was introduced, but GRRM liked the character well enough and she provided a useful POV. That's all. IMO, both are simply witnesses, neither are important.

Why is the Grey King's bloodline important to this story?

What does it matter if the Seastone Chair is a proto-Harrenhal?

Like I'm not following this post at all. Could you go a bit deeper...

11 minutes ago, Tucu said:

I have a pet crackpot theory that Theon will be the first "white shadow" (white walker) casted south of the Wall for thousands of years. If as I suspect the shadows are souls/shades/ghosts mixed with magic, then "The Ghost in Winterfell" would make a great WW after he is sacrificed under the weirwood.

That's not so crackpot.

I've heard something similar but instead of Theon, it'd be Stannis.

We could use a POV that finds itself on the side of the Others. I wouldn't be opposed to it.

[300 H&H Magnum]

The Greyjoys is a fractured family.  They have the same function that the Sand Snakes have in Dorne.  To create turmoil among their own people and bring chaos to the kingdom.  We will see Dornish vs. Dornish, North vs. North, Ironborn vs. Ironborn, to name a few.  The land will really be ripe for the White Walkers to take if they should ever have the desire to do so.  Lots of infighting among families and within each kingdom.  

[BlackLightning]

16 minutes ago, 300 H&H Magnum said:

The Greyjoys is a fractured family.  They have the same function that the Sand Snakes have in Dorne.  To create turmoil among their own people and bring chaos to the kingdom.  We will see Dornish vs. Dornish, North vs. North, Ironborn vs. Ironborn, to name a few.  The land will really be ripe for the White Walkers to take if they should ever have the desire to do so.  Lots of infighting among families and within each kingdom.  

But Dorne and the Sand Snakes both are clearly going to play a H-U-G-E role in both Winds and Dream

The North has been #1 since the first three chapters (including the prologue) in Game

Victarion has a clear role that comes with its own built-in time limits. Euron is clearly the penultimate villain or the endgame villain that no one (except for maybe Victarion but he barely counts because he's stupid) is paying attention to.

But Theon? He seems to outlived his role the moment he jumped off the Winterfell battlements.

Asha? I'm not seeing anything.

The Ironborn? They're just soldiers for Victarion and Euron to fight their battles with at this point. Stormtroopers.

[300 H&H Magnum]

31 minutes ago, Jabar of House Titan said:

But Dorne and the Sand Snakes both are clearly going to play a H-U-G-E role in both Winds and Dream

The North has been #1 since the first three chapters (including the prologue) in Game

Victarion has a clear role that comes with its own built-in time limits. Euron is clearly the penultimate villain or the endgame villain that no one (except for maybe Victarion but he barely counts because he's stupid) is paying attention to.

But Theon? He seems to outlived his role the moment he jumped off the Winterfell battlements.

Asha? I'm not seeing anything.

The Ironborn? They're just soldiers for Victarion and Euron to fight their battles with at this point. Stormtroopers.

They will play huge roles.  I don't doubt that.   Theon may no longer have plot importance but he has been the only interesting character on the north of Moat Cailin. 

I am not convinced with the rest of your comments.

 

[BlackLightning]

25 minutes ago, 300 H&H Magnum said:

I am not convinced with the rest of your comments.

???

Which ones?

About Dorne and the Sand Snakes being important?

[kissdbyfire]

4 hours ago, aryagonnakill#2 said:

I don't see Theon dying at all personally, I think people are way off base with that. 

Not just yet anyways...

4 hours ago, aryagonnakill#2 said:

I also don't see Bran skinchanging him at the tree.  It would be contrary to him re finding his identity.  He has come a long way since his worst state, his last chapter was called Theon, not some weird identity.

Here I disagree. I think Theon willingly letting Bran slip into him makes sense not only b/c the ton of foreshadowing there is but also it's something that will bring him closer to really atoning. So while I agree he has come a long way since he was Ramsay's creature, he still has a ways to go. IMO he has to atone to his betrayal of Robb, Bran, Rickon, and and all the Winterfell household (more so than the Starks in general). Also hugely important is for him to admit, even if to himself only, that the murder of the miller's sons was just as wrong and atrocious as killing Bran and Rickon would have been. Perhaps even more so. 

[kissdbyfire]

1 hour ago, Jabar of House Titan said:

Asha? I'm not seeing anything.

Asha could be the PoV in Winterfell once Stannis takes it.

[BlackLightning]

Just now, kissdbyfire said:

Asha could be the PoV in Winterfell once Stannis takes it.

What then? What does Dream look like for Asha if she's with Stannis when he wins? What's the point of Asha?

And what about Sansa and Jon (if GRRM decides to keep him)?

Wouldn't Asha's presence in Winterfell steal the spotlight from Sansa, Jon and Davos' POVs.

I can imagine that Sansa or Jon will allow Asha (and Theon) to return to the Iron Islands if they retake Winterfell. But that's if they, House Stark, retakes Winterfell. If House Baratheon does it, then Asha isn't going to Castle Cerwyn, much less Pyke.

8 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

Not just yet anyways...

Here I disagree. I think Theon willingly letting Bran slip into him makes sense not only b/c the ton of foreshadowing there is but also it's something that will bring him closer to really atoning. So while I agree he has come a long way since he was Ramsay's creature, he still has a ways to go. IMO he has to atone to his betrayal of Robb, Bran, Rickon, and and all the Winterfell household (more so than the Starks in general). Also hugely important is for him to admit, even if to himself only, that the murder of the miller's sons was just as wrong and atrocious as killing Bran and Rickon would have been. Perhaps even more so. 

You really think Theon would be okay with that … after everything he just went through at the Dreadfort and then at Winterfell?

Theon is mentally unwell and spiritually lost: he has only just recovered a shred of integrity and purpose. He'll feel like he deserves to be skinchanged and probably won't bemoan it like some people would but it would probably destroy Theon.

Hodor is one thing and Thistle is another. But Theon? At the hands of Bran? He'd end up worse than Hodor. Not to mention, it would be completely cruel and ugly for Bran to do that.

Look at it this way:

• if most people consider rape to be a horrible invasion of privacy, a scary disregard of another person's will and feelings and a disgustingly abusive violation of the body...
• … then losing complete control of your body, having another person thinking and trudging around in your mind and being completely aware of everything that's going on (worse, being able to hear the other person)… it would be beyond hellish. It's cthulhuian.

Theon would actually think being tortured and flayed and gaslighted by Ramsay. Because, at least Ramsay couldn't actually get into Theon's head to hear Theon's individual thoughts, to control Theon's body and to think his own twisted thoughts and images into Theon's head.

 

ugh

[kissdbyfire]

37 minutes ago, Jabar of House Titan said:

What then? What does Dream look like for Asha if she's with Stannis when he wins? What's the point of Asha?

And what about Sansa and Jon (if GRRM decides to keep him)?

Wouldn't Asha's presence in Winterfell steal the spotlight from Sansa, Jon and Davos' POVs.

I can imagine that Sansa or Jon will allow Asha (and Theon) to return to the Iron Islands if they retake Winterfell. But that's if they, House Stark, retakes Winterfell. If House Baratheon does it, then Asha isn't going to Castle Cerwyn, much less Pyke.

I don't think Stannis will still be at Winterfell come Dreams. I was thinking about a more immediate future. It will take, IMO, maybe 1/3 of Winds for the Stannis v Bolton thing to resolve. Maybe. And I think Stannis will get to Winterfell before anyone else. So, again IMO, it will take a while until other PoVs get there, and Martin will need a PoV there and Asha may be it. Not married to it, but consider it a real possibility. 

Quote

You really think Theon would be okay with that … after everything he just went through at the Dreadfort and then at Winterfell?

Theon is mentally unwell and spiritually lost: he has only just recovered a shred of integrity and purpose. He'll feel like he deserves to be skinchanged and probably won't bemoan it like some people would but it would probably destroy Theon.

Well, we clearly disagree on this. As I said, the foreshadowing is substantial and  consistent throughout Dance. 

And as I said before, I agree that Theon has come a long way on the road to recoverY. But if you recall, that process really starts to happen once he gets to Winterfell. And Bran's presence and his own guilt are a huge part of this process...

ADwD, A Ghost in Winterfell

“And in the heart of the wood the weirwood waited with its knowing red eyes. Theon stopped by the edge of the pool and bowed his head before its carved red face. Even here he could hear the drumming, boom DOOM boom DOOM boom DOOM boom DOOM. Like distant thunder, the sound seemed to come from everywhere at once.
The night was windless, the snow drifting straight down out of a cold black sky, yet the leaves of the heart tree were rustling his name. “Theon,” they seemed to whisper, “Theon.”
The old gods, he thought. They know me. They know my name. I was Theon of House Greyjoy. I was a ward of Eddard Stark, a friend and brother to his children. “Please.” He fell to his knees. “A sword, that’s all I ask. Let me die as Theon, not as Reek.” Tears trickled down his cheeks, impossibly warm. “I was ironborn. A son … a son of Pyke, of the islands.”
A leaf drifted down from above, brushed his brow, and landed in the pool. It floated on the water, red, five-fingered, like a bloody hand. “… Bran,” the tree murmured.
They know. The gods know. They saw what I did. And for one strange moment it seemed as if it were Bran’s face carved into the pale trunk of the weirwood, staring down at him with eyes red and wise and sad. Bran’s ghost, he thought, but that was madness. Why should Bran want to haunt him? He had been fond of the boy, had never done him any harm. It was not Bran we killed. It was not Rickon. They were only miller’s sons, from the mill by the Acorn Water. “I had to have two heads, else they would have mocked me … laughed at me … they …”

So, to answer your question, yes. I do think Theon would go along w/ it and give himself up for Bran to use as a vessel. 

Quote

Hodor is one thing and Thistle is another. But Theon? At the hands of Bran? He'd end up worse than Hodor.

I don't think so. Hodor doesn't understand what is happening to him.

It's heartbreaking to read, but narratively speaking Hodor is Bran's "training wheels". 

Quote

 

Not to mention, it would be completely cruel and ugly for Bran to do that.

It would be out of necessity, and sometimes people will have to make very ugly choices and decisions they normally wouldn't. That's what "the human heart in conflict w/ itself" is all about. 

Quote

Look at it this way:

• if most people consider rape to be a horrible invasion of privacy, a scary disregard of another person's will and feelings and a disgustingly abusive violation of the body...
• … then losing complete control of your body, having another person thinking and trudging around in your mind and being completely aware of everything that's going on (worse, being able to hear the other person)… it would be beyond hellish. It's cthulhuian.

Just no. Rape is never something one goes into willingly. If one engages in whatever activity, sexual or otherwise, willingly, then it's not rape nor wrong if between consenting adults. Again, key word here is "willingly". 

Quote

Theon would actually think being tortured and flayed and gaslighted by Ramsay. Because, at least Ramsay couldn't actually get into Theon's head to hear Theon's individual thoughts, to control Theon's body and to think his own twisted thoughts and images into Theon's head.

 

ugh

Sorry, I wholeheartedly disagree. Not sure what you meant to say in the first sentence here.

But to say Ramsay couldn't get into Theon's head is just... absurd? That's what Ramsay does. He plays mind games and toys w/ his victims... He may not be literally inside Theon's head, but he is so inside Theon's head that it fractures Theon's psyche.  

Anyway, we shall see. Soon?

[Curled Finger]

There is so much tinfoil I could wrap Theon in, but let's say I agree with @aryagonnakill#2 that Theon and Bran play large in each other's stories.  Asha is another cheated heir, but she was Balon's heir and despite losing the Kingsmoot she still has a loyal group of influential people backing her.    Euron is mad.  Not all the Ironborn are going to get behind that.   Who?   How about Nuncle Roderick?  Theon and Asha are peppered with possibility.   There were all those pages of Theon and the captain's daughter.  I believe there is a little Theon out there somewhere.  I never got the vibe that Asha was pregnant, but what if she is?   It does not diminish her badassery.  Don't underestimate Asha, she knows what she's doing.  The Glover woman even spoke for her to Stannis.   Come on now, you have to ask what that is all about?  Asha already stated that she wants peace with the North.   She's a progressive who wants to change the lives of her people.  No different from Jon or Dany.   All Westeros and the portions of Essos I've read need change--scream for change.   At some point these diverse people need to work together, simple as it seems.   

Theon will not rule, but he is the avenue by which Euron will be overthrown, likely to allow Asha to rule.  Her bravery and ability to amass loyalty will allow the Ironborn to become team players and develop a new culture.   Merchants instead of reavers.   Soldiers instead of pirates.  Truly a people of the realm.  If any of them live at all.

For my money Aeron gives the reader the very best insight into the Drowned God and Victarion is the vehicle we will see both R'hllor and TDG work.  Unlikely, but I hope Vic actually gains some favor with the gods that will help defeat Euron.    

[Quoth the raven,]

I feel like it's too much for both Theon and Asha to pull through.  Theon looks like he's in poor health and Stannis is treating him badly.  Ramsay wants him back.  He's dead unless he can get away from those two guys.  Things don't look good for Theon.  

[Guest]

Big fan of the ironborn arc. I feel like Vic's gone through a lot of character development in his 4 chapters. still has a long way to go but I'm pumped for what he'll do next.

Don't know why, but I have a feeling this Theon/Asha reunion won't last long. If I had to take a shot in the dark as to how Theon's saga ends, I'm thinking Bran really saved his life back in the Godswood, maybe Theon can return the favor given Bran's current condition. It would only need to be a one way trip. No clue where Asha's going.

I'm most excited for Damphair chapters. I'm noticing a pattern in this series where they'll be an unlikable POV character who has been imprisoned for a while, and in this book he manages to distance himself from what's going on and redeem himself. Jamie in ASOS and Theon in ADWD. let's take a look at his character. he's intolerant of other religions and callous towards greenlanders. could this arc change him and make him better? can he escape Euron and be significant in bringing him down. I also think that when the "Drowned God" was speaking to him about who should sit the seastone chair and what could make Euron's kingsmoot victory null is actually himself, not Theon. 

[Curled Finger]

 

1 hour ago, Mooncalf said:

Big fan of the ironborn arc. I feel like Vic's gone through a lot of character development in his 4 chapters. still has a long way to go but I'm pumped for what he'll do next.

Don't know why, but I have a feeling this Theon/Asha reunion won't last long. If I had to take a shot in the dark as to how Theon's saga ends, I'm thinking Bran really saved his life back in the Godswood, maybe Theon can return the favor given Bran's current condition. It would only need to be a one way trip. No clue where Asha's going.

I'm most excited for Damphair chapters. I'm noticing a pattern in this series where they'll be an unlikable POV character who has been imprisoned for a while, and in this book he manages to distance himself from what's going on and redeem himself. Jamie in ASOS and Theon in ADWD. let's take a look at his character. he's intolerant of other religions and callous towards greenlanders. could this arc change him and make him better? can he escape Euron and be significant in bringing him down. I also think that when the "Drowned God" was speaking to him about who should sit the seastone chair and what could make Euron's kingsmoot victory null is actually himself, not Theon. 

You make some fine points here, @Mooncalf.  The Greyjoys and Martells are sort of latecomers to the party, but do bring some necessary and illuminating intelligence to the story overall and the realm in fracture.  It's not that either family necessarily wants to rule the 7 Kingdoms but their own little parts of the land.  Martells want vengeance and the Greyjoys want to be independent.  Asha doesn't want independence but to join the realm at large and make her people citizens of the realm with all the rights and privileges the other kingdoms seem to have.   I've studied the Iron Islands a bit.   In large they have very limited resources and little to offer.   That doesn't mean they aren't without any value--their iron workers and ore are considered among the best known.  Asha understands her people are reaching insustainability.   Theon wasn't raised Ironborn and has little real understanding of the culture or people.    He's actually much closer to what the Ironborn need in being raised Northern.   None of that was to cast any shade on your post, only to explain my understanding of Asha.   

I'm with you on the future Aeron chapters and raise you Victarion--these Greyjoys promise to be very exciting players!