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The Fate and Purpose of the Greyjoy Kids


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Theons role is to be Torgon Latecomer and rule the iron islands . This is pretty well foreshadowed. George even took care in choosing Theons name..

"Only a godly man may sit the seastone chair". Theon literally means Godly.
https://nameberry.com/babyname/Theon

 

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And there and then the Drowned God had called him once more, his voice welling up from the depths of the sea, “Aeron, my good and faithful servant, you must tell the Ironborn that the Crow’s Eye is no true king. That the Seastone Chair by rights belongs to…to…to…”

 Not Victarion. Victarion had offered himself up to the captains and they had spurned him. Not Asha. In his heart, Aeron had always loved her best of all his brother Balon’s children. The Drowned God had blessed her with the warrior spirit, but he had cursed her with a woman’s body, too. No woman had ever ruled the Iron Islands. She should never have made a claim, should have spoken for Victarion, added her own strength to his.

It was not too late, Aeron had decided as he shriveled in the sea. If Victarion took Asha for his wife, they could yet rule together, king and queen. In ancient days, each isle had its salt king and its rock king. Let the old way return.

It belongs to Theon. Of course Aeron doesn´t even know theon is alive, thats why he doesnt even consider the possibility.

Of course the mere notion of theon ruling the ironborn seems currently unlikely, being a prisoner and all that.. Also his mental state isn´t helping either. He was broken by ramsay.. and is only  recovering his courage and will to live. But then again, "What is dead may never die, but rises again, harder and stronger", or so the saying goes.

Stannis said the North wants theon dead for murdering the stark boys. Theres a number of ways George could get Theon out of this one.
a) It seems bran wants Stannis to execute theon in front of the weirwood.. that may be so, in order to speak to Stannis through the tree (as we know he can) to spare theon.
b) Asha may be planning a rescue mission
c) We know Bran was spotted by some mountain man from the liddle clan. The Liddles are part of Stannis army.. one of them could say Bran is actually alive and save Theon.
c) We know stannis can be pragmatic when he wants.. he could spare theon for political reasons. (actually there is a theory that Stannis will kill the Old Karstark in Theons place and fool everyone to keep his northern allies,).. 

Theons political value is unquestionable.  He can get Dagmer cleftjaw to yield Torrhens square, the last stronghold held by the ironborn in the north.. He can return the Glover hostages, asha sent to the iron islands..  And finally he is the true heir to the Iron Islands. If stannis needed a loyal lord to deliver that kingdom, theon could be the one.
Furthermore, he knows Winterfell well, Stannis could need his knowledge to take the castle. Theon story is very much linked to Winterfell. I think it would make sense for the author to have Theon there when the castle is finally free from the boltons.

all of this makes me believe he will make it out of the battle of ice. Probably Stannis will spare him.  They will take Winterfell, and Theon will be sent to Torrhen square, where he will join his nuncle Dagmer, and return to the iron islands.
George even got him an "heir" early on with his "salt-wife" in ACOK.

Asha on the other hand.... i don´t see her having any role left. She was a much needed camara to show us Stannis campaign. But now that we have theon. There is some very cryptic foreshadowing around her. her chapter named "the sacrifice", all those references to blood and weirwoods...and finally probably getting pregnant. Why would the author get Asha pregnant? Rhaego, Fallias unborn child., and now Asha... George has a thing with sacrificing unborn babies.
i think Asha will die during the battle of ice, under the weirwood, and Brandon stark will taste the blood. She will be the vessel to introduce us to Blood sacrifice to the old gods... What will that power be used to? im not sure.. to save jon, or to stop the terrible blizzard thats defeating stannis (kind of like in the show, melisandre uses shireen)

Either way the true story is about political conflict that divides humans while the true enemy comes.
Who rules the iron islands is not really important. Theon role is therefore to bring whatever force remains to the ironborn to the Greenlands and join the living in the fight against the dead... 
in fact, if the theory of the Horn Of Winter creating earthquakes is true, i think the iron islands will be destroyed by a tsunamy... and only those who follow theon will survive.

there is actually plenty of foreshadowing regarding this.
 

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On ‎7‎/‎6‎/‎2018 at 7:19 PM, kissdbyfire said:

Well, we clearly disagree on this. As I said, the foreshadowing is substantial and  consistent throughout Dance

And as I said before, I agree that Theon has come a long way on the road to recoverY. But if you recall, that process really starts to happen once he gets to Winterfell. And Bran's presence and his own guilt are a huge part of this process...

ADwD, A Ghost in Winterfell

And in the heart of the wood the weirwood waited with its knowing red eyes. Theon stopped by the edge of the pool and bowed his head before its carved red face. Even here he could hear the drumming, boom DOOM boom DOOM boom DOOM boom DOOM. Like distant thunder, the sound seemed to come from everywhere at once.
The night was windless, the snow drifting straight down out of a cold black sky, yet the leaves of the heart tree were rustling his name. “Theon,” they seemed to whisper, “Theon.”
The old gods, he thought. They know me. They know my name. I was Theon of House Greyjoy. I was a ward of Eddard Stark, a friend and brother to his children. “Please.” He fell to his knees. “A sword, that’s all I ask. Let me die as Theon, not as Reek.” Tears trickled down his cheeks, impossibly warm. “I was ironborn. A son … a son of Pyke, of the islands.”
A leaf drifted down from above, brushed his brow, and landed in the pool. It floated on the water, red, five-fingered, like a bloody hand. “… Bran,” the tree murmured.
They know. The gods know. They saw what I did. And for one strange moment it seemed as if it were Bran’s face carved into the pale trunk of the weirwood, staring down at him with eyes red and wise and sad. Bran’s ghost, he thought, but that was madness. Why should Bran want to haunt him? He had been fond of the boy, had never done him any harm. It was not Bran we killed. It was not Rickon. They were only miller’s sons, from the mill by the Acorn Water. “I had to have two heads, else they would have mocked me … laughed at me … they …”

So, to answer your question, yes. I do think Theon would go along w/ it and give himself up for Bran to use as a vessel. 

I don't think so. Hodor doesn't understand what is happening to him.

It's heartbreaking to read, but narratively speaking Hodor is Bran's "training wheels". 

It would be out of necessity, and sometimes people will have to make very ugly choices and decisions they normally wouldn't. That's what "the human heart in conflict w/ itself" is all about. 

Just no. Rape is never something one goes into willingly. If one engages in whatever activity, sexual or otherwise, willingly, then it's not rape nor wrong if between consenting adults. Again, key word here is "willingly". 

Sorry, I wholeheartedly disagree. Not sure what you meant to say in the first sentence here.

But to say Ramsay couldn't get into Theon's head is just... absurd? That's what Ramsay does. He plays mind games and toys w/ his victims... He may not be literally inside Theon's head, but he is so inside Theon's head that it fractures Theon's psyche.  

Anyway, we shall see. Soon? :cheers:

Fair points

On ‎7‎/‎6‎/‎2018 at 7:19 PM, kissdbyfire said:

I don't think Stannis will still be at Winterfell come Dreams. I was thinking about a more immediate future. It will take, IMO, maybe 1/3 of Winds for the Stannis v Bolton thing to resolve. Maybe. And I think Stannis will get to Winterfell before anyone else. So, again IMO, it will take a while until other PoVs get there, and Martin will need a PoV there and Asha may be it. Not married to it, but consider it a real possibility. 

I don't know.

I can see the Battle of Meereen only taking 1/3 of Winds. But the Battle of Winterfell? No, I think that's going to be an storyline that lasts almost the entire book.

Although GRRM is apparently rewriting large swathes of the story to further differentiate the books and/or improve upon something the show did, Sansa and the Valemen will have a hand in the Battle of Winterfell. Stannis has never made it clear that he cares about Sansa and/or her claim (how ironic) and he absolutely despises Littlefinger. He's almost as much of an enemy to Sansa as the Boltons currently are.

A lot of people might not think so but Stannis Baratheon is a big threat to the resurgent House Stark. Sansa and Jon (Bran and Arya when they come home) can't do what it is that they need to do as a whole if Stannis is breathing down their necks, the control freak that he is.

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19 minutes ago, Jabar of House Titan said:

Stannis has never made it clear that he cares about Sansa and/or her claim (how ironic

I will have to come back and reply properly in a bit (dinner! :D ) but just wanted to say before I forget... Stannis does think and he does mention Sansa... he refers to her as Lady Lannister iirc... :)

 

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I haven't followed the Greyjoys much, as I don't particularly like them, but I'll add thoughts anyway.

I expect Theon's absence from the Kingsmoot will be used as an excuse to reopen it, especially if Euron crashes and burns (maybe literally).  I think Theon is too damaged in body and spirit to make a credible candidate for King, but Asha could make a run.  Her ideas of reorienting the Ironborn are good ones, so, knowing Martin, they won't be successful, at least initially.  

I expect Theon to continue his redemption arc, however that turns out, so I have begun to have doubts that he will actually die in the near future.  Although his death by the end of Winds is entirely possible.

I do not think we will see the captain's Daughter again.  She was simply a mechanism to show us how badly Theon attitudes were towards women.  In any event, any claim would be defeated by two words:  Prove it.  There is no proof any child would be Theon's, and don't think there will be.  I expect that she will be happy to put as many miles as she can between them (or at least her father will).

That's all I can think of for now.

 

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Theon's future and purpose- I say going North to the Wall.  He was planning on taking the Black before everything went down with Ramsay and Ser Rodrick, and will need to escape from Stannis and the Northmen demanding his head.  Taking the Black is the only way for him to get out of his current predicament.  

He is also on a redemption arc and I think that maybe serving Jon and the remaining Starks is his way of atoning for betraying Robb. Plus you add in the stuff with Bran and the Old Gods and that connects him even further to the Watch and the battle against the Others.  I don't see him having anything to do with Pyke and the Iron Islands- that is not him and it never was but it is especially so now.  

I have more trouble seeing what the purpose of Asha is and will be...I think in many ways she just existed to provide a POV into more important characters and events (the Kingsmoot and now Stannis).  But if I had to guess I'd say that with her insight into the Reader and some of the more moderate Lords on the Iron Islands she will use Theon's existence to try and invalidate the Kingsmoot and take over and sue for peace.  

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8 hours ago, Tagganaro said:

Theon's future and purpose- I say going North to the Wall.  He was planning on taking the Black before everything went down with Ramsay and Ser Rodrick, and will need to escape from Stannis and the Northmen demanding his head.  Taking the Black is the only way for him to get out of his current predicament.  

He is also on a redemption arc and I think that maybe serving Jon and the remaining Starks is his way of atoning for betraying Robb. Plus you add in the stuff with Bran and the Old Gods and that connects him even further to the Watch and the battle against the Others.  I don't see him having anything to do with Pyke and the Iron Islands- that is not him and it never was but it is especially so now.  

 

That was a big problem I had with season 6. Why did he even want to go back the the islands? all that is there for him is the people that convinced him to forsake his true family, the Starks. I'm hoping he manages to head north to. 

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14 hours ago, kissdbyfire said:

I will have to come back and reply properly in a bit (dinner! :D ) but just wanted to say before I forget... Stannis does think and he does mention Sansa... he refers to her as Lady Lannister iirc... :)

 

Yeah, I know.

But I've always found to be a slight rather than a gesture of respect (a lot like how Stannis feels about being given Dragonstone :D). And what did he say to Jon when they were talking about legitimizing him and giving him Winterfell?

And Stannis knows very, very well that Sansa was forcibly married to Tyrion as a hostage. That in tandem with the fact that the marriage has never been consummated and that they have been estranged for - at this point - close to a year...the marriage should be basically null and void in Stannis' eyes.

If he truly were a just man...

How was dinner btw

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On 7/6/2018 at 1:31 PM, Jabar of House Titan said:

Why is the Grey King's bloodline important to this story?

What does it matter if the Seastone Chair is a proto-Harrenhal?

Like I'm not following this post at all. Could you go a bit deeper...

I believe the Grey King's bloodline carries a "nullification" ability, which protects them against magical influence. This is why the religion of the Iron Islands (where this blood is strongest) includes a ritualized near-death experience: the drowning disables this protection, allowing them to commune with the gestalt. It's why Bran (the Stark kids have Grey King blood from their maternal grandmother, a Whent) can be contacted by Bloodraven while he's in his coma. But it's interesting to note that this ability doesn't just protect the individual: during the early part of Bran's coma, Catlyn never left his side, and so Bloodraven was unable to make contact with him until after she left.

Harrenhal and the Seastone Chair amplify this ability, assuming someone of the appropriate bloodline is lording over it. We have a pretty good idea of the radius of the Seastone Chair's null field because magic survived on the Lonely Light, but Harrenhal was built on an epic scale, and its effect would likely have covered the world. It's not a coincidence Aegon invaded the day it was completed: dragons require magic to breed, and eventually the null effect would have killed them. When the Lothstons (Hoare descendants) took possession of Harrenhal the last dragon died just two years after, and they didn't hatch again until the last Whent (Lothston successor house) was ousted during the War of the Five Kings.

 

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13 hours ago, Tagganaro said:

Theon's future and purpose- I say going North to the Wall.  He was planning on taking the Black before everything went down with Ramsay and Ser Rodrick, and will need to escape from Stannis and the Northmen demanding his head.  Taking the Black is the only way for him to get out of his current predicament.  

He is also on a redemption arc and I think that maybe serving Jon and the remaining Starks is his way of atoning for betraying Robb. Plus you add in the stuff with Bran and the Old Gods and that connects him even further to the Watch and the battle against the Others.  I don't see him having anything to do with Pyke and the Iron Islands- that is not him and it never was but it is especially so now.  

I have more trouble seeing what the purpose of Asha is and will be...I think in many ways she just existed to provide a POV into more important characters and events (the Kingsmoot and now Stannis).  But if I had to guess I'd say that with her insight into the Reader and some of the more moderate Lords on the Iron Islands she will use Theon's existence to try and invalidate the Kingsmoot and take over and sue for peace.  

Theon

With Theon, I can see your point. I'm inclined to agree that Theon will likely make it to Dream.

I can actually see Theon fighting in the actual Battle for Winterfell.

Asha

Why does everyone struggle with predicting or inferring a trajectory for Asha lol?!

I don't think she's a camera like Areo is but...idk.

Suing for peace is beyond redundant at this point because the War of the Five Kings ended awhile ago, the Ironborn occupation of the North is an over-and-done affair and the Others are coming.

What if she succeeds and uses Theon's existence to void the Kingsmoot? Okay, but what then. If she gets what she wants, are the Ironborn just going to stand around on the sidelines with their first ever Queen and skirt the disaster that's about to befall the continent?

And what about Euron? Euron might not think much of Theon and/or Asha right now - apparently not many people in Westeros or in real life do - but he's not going to just take the Kingsmoot recall election lying down. What happens if he destroys the Redwyne fleet and sacks Oldtown only for him to lose the Kingsmoot all over again?

Besides, Asha going to have to take Theon back with her to the Iron Islands if she wants to get the Kingsmoot redacted. Which takes Theon out of the North for maybe half of a book.

3 hours ago, Damon_Tor said:

I believe the Grey King's bloodline carries a "nullification" ability, which protects them against magical influence. This is why the religion of the Iron Islands (where this blood is strongest) includes a ritualized near-death experience: the drowning disables this protection, allowing them to commune with the gestalt. It's why Bran (the Stark kids have Grey King blood from their maternal grandmother, a Whent) can be contacted by Bloodraven while he's in his coma. But it's interesting to note that this ability doesn't just protect the individual: during the early part of Bran's coma, Catlyn never left his side, and so Bloodraven was unable to make contact with him until after she left.

Harrenhal and the Seastone Chair amplify this ability, assuming someone of the appropriate bloodline is lording over it. We have a pretty good idea of the radius of the Seastone Chair's null field because magic survived on the Lonely Light, but Harrenhal was built on an epic scale, and its effect would likely have covered the world. It's not a coincidence Aegon invaded the day it was completed: dragons require magic to breed, and eventually the null effect would have killed them. When the Lothstons (Hoare descendants) took possession of Harrenhal the last dragon died just two years after, and they didn't hatch again until the last Whent (Lothston successor house) was ousted during the War of the Five Kings.

 

Okay.

I still don't get it.

But what's the significance of the nullification of magic on the Iron Islands?

Are you saying that the Iron Islands are basically going to be the only place where zombies and the powers of the Others will hold ZERO sway? And I have absolutely no idea why you think that Aegon's conquest and the construction of Harrenhal are connected. I've always seen that as a pure coincidence.

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Perhaps The Frey’s will be pncered on rotten ice between Northerners and Manderley. The Northerners will wear outfits from the dead Frey’s, and Manderley and Theon will pretend that they won the battle for Ramsey. RB will believe his Reek, who will be doing a brave redemptive move in reverse of what he has done, and what he did at Torrhens Square. RB will let them in the front door of WF, where Asha will fell him with an axe between the eyes. 

Still think Theon will drop a renegade dragon with a ballista,for the Starks, against the WW.

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On ‎7‎/‎10‎/‎2018 at 10:06 AM, Jabar of House Titan said:

 

Okay.

I still don't get it.

But what's the significance of the nullification of magic on the Iron Islands?

Are you saying that the Iron Islands are basically going to be the only place where zombies and the powers of the Others will hold ZERO sway? And I have absolutely no idea why you think that Aegon's conquest and the construction of Harrenhal are connected. I've always seen that as a pure coincidence.

Sansa ruling from Harenhal would protect the whole continent. An option Daenerys is likely going to eliminate when she kills her and/or destroys Harenhal. Slayer of lies line 3. Remember that dragons are a wmd metaphor, and remember GRRMs philosophy: Nothing good will come from them, and its them that bring the winter.

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9 hours ago, Damon_Tor said:

Sansa ruling from Harenhal would protect the whole continent. An option Daenerys is likely going to eliminate when she kills her and/or destroys Harenhal. Slayer of lies line 3. Remember that dragons are a wmd metaphor, and remember GRRMs philosophy: Nothing good will come from them, and its them that bring the winter.

Protect the whole continent from what? The Others? Daenerys? Euron?

Metaphorical winter surely.

Because dragons seem to be Westeros' (and maybe the entire world's) only hope.

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12 hours ago, Jabar of House Titan said:

Protect the whole continent from what? The Others? Daenerys? Euron?

Metaphorical winter surely.

Because dragons seem to be Westeros' (and maybe the entire world's) only hope.

Oh goodness, no. Dragons are a terrible idea. GRRM wouldn't write a story where nukes or their metaphorical counterparts were any kind of hope. For the same reason, we can rule out any information gained via torture; GRRM has certain ideological "tells".

A functional Harrenhal would protect the continent from any kind of magic, yes, including the Winter, or the death-animating powers of the Others. The idea that the dragons cause the winter is entirely in keeping with the theme: a metaphorical nuclear winter.

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Theon's arc has been too much related to Bran, the Starks and Winterfell so I dont see him leave the North. Bran may guide Stannis (through Theon) to enter Winterfell. Theon can also serve briefly as a Wall POV.

Asha is more than a camera. She is a reformer like Daenerys and Jon. She wanted to continue her grandfather's politics and integrate the Iron Islands with the rest of the Seven Kingdoms. This is why I believe she survives the Long Night, uses Theon's absence to overthrow Euron and becomes Lady of Pyke.

 

 

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On 7/6/2018 at 5:06 PM, Jabar of House Titan said:

We've already talked and speculated a lot about the purpose of the Victarion/Daenerys and the Aeron/Euron stories...but I haven't seen too much of anything about Asha or Theon. What I have seen can be basically surmised as this: 

  1. Theon dying within the first 100 pages of Winds, all post-mortem references and mentioning of him ceases by the end of Winds  
  2. Asha simply disappears because she is pregnant (???)

Sounds quite stupid. Could you elaborate on your reasoning here ?

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13 hours ago, Endymion I Targaryen said:

Asha is more than a camera. She is a reformer like Daenerys and Jon. She wanted to continue her grandfather's politics and integrate the Iron Islands with the rest of the Seven Kingdoms. This is why I believe she survives the Long Night, uses Theon's absence to overthrow Euron and becomes Lady of Pyke

This. I think Asha is a good character with a lot to give in a leadership role. I can totally see Stannis or someone recognising her martial value and her having a role to play in the fight against the others.

Theon I think will die seeking redemption. I don't get how people see him as the ruler of the Iron Islands - they follow strength and Theon is mutilated and weak. Plus he can't reproduce so it would be a totally unstable situation. Plus I cannot see him wanting to rule at all, not after everything. 

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On ‎7‎/‎12‎/‎2018 at 11:36 AM, Serafina said:

Sounds quite stupid. Could you elaborate on your reasoning here ?

I agree. It is quite stupid.

On ‎7‎/‎13‎/‎2018 at 10:38 AM, aryagonnakill#2 said:

Asha intended to drink moons tea or whatever their morning after drink is called after she bangs Carl a few times, but then the Dreadfort is attacked and she is never able to do this.  I cannot speak to any theory about her disappearing.

 

On ‎7‎/‎12‎/‎2018 at 1:02 PM, Serafina said:

Both... 

Like I said, it was something that I had heard and observed from people across the Internet or (a little more rarely) in person. No one gives the Greyjoy kids - especially Asha - any thought. There's actually a thread on reddit and on here that talks about Asha's potential pregnancy.

I was shocked when I first read that because, previously, Asha getting pregnant would be the last thing I would expect. I can see Daenerys and Cersei getting pregnant again (Cersei's pregnancy would likely end in a miscarriage) and I can see Sansa and/or Arianne having sex with a man with perhaps the intention of conceiving. But Asha? No.

About Asha disappearing? I don't know. On those threads, the people who do have anything to say about Asha don't seem to have the faintest idea as to what's going to happen to her once "she gets pregnant." Not only that...they don't seem to care. It's like she just disappears and everyone is okay with that.

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