BlackLightning Posted July 9, 2018 Share Posted July 9, 2018 1 minute ago, zandru said: Well, that's what I like to call the "NRA Argument"**. Viserys did just fine at "keeping himself and his sister alive" without having to slaughter or rough up anyone, as far as we know. He used his tongue, lordly bearing and language, and his family name to beg food and shelter. Plus, they ran a lot. Even in Westeros/Essos, you don't have to kill your way to success. -------- ** National Rifle Association, for those readers not in the US. Viserys would have earned a lot more respect if he was a willful fighter and not just a mere beggar. That's what I'd like to call the "working poor, welfare poor" dichotomy. Poor, disenfranchised people who are seen to have a hard-working, "warrior" mentality are widely respected by people of all classes, creeds and colors … always has been like that. Poor, disenfranchised people who appear to go about with their hand out asking for help? Not so much. Case in point: look at how people treat homeless panhandlers who sit on the side of major thoroughfares and intersections compared. That being said, I think Viserys' story is sad. It's a deconstruction of that one trope where an orphan (usually a boy, but it applies to girls as well) goes years having absolutely nothing and no one but still manages to have a heart of gold and/or courageous outlook. In real life, those types of people are more likely to become bitter, distrustful and self-sabotaging. In any case, both Viserys and Daenerys should have been taught how to defend themselves. Especially given the situation that they were in. Unfortunately, the best caretaker that they ever had, Darry, was too busy putting a roof over their heads and too old to do it whenever he had a free moment. Viserys especially has no real excuse not to have found a way to learn how to fight. Just like there is no real excuse for him to be so mean and weak-spirited. Viserys just had really bad entitlement problem. The fact that Jorah and Barristan never taught Daenerys the basics reflects badly on them. Especially Jorah because he's a Mormont and the women of Bear Island in general (House Mormont specifically) are renowned. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Lord of the Crossing Posted July 9, 2018 Share Posted July 9, 2018 Viserys not being a fighter probably saved his life. He was a kid living in the streets with many harder men who would have killed him. Dany was just too young then. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zandru Posted July 9, 2018 Share Posted July 9, 2018 20 minutes ago, The Lord of the Crossing said: Viserys not being a fighter probably saved his life. He was a kid living in the streets with many harder men who would have killed him. Dany was just too young then. Bingo! Not only was Viserys a boy or young adolescent, but also those "hard men" never act alone. It's always a gang and they make a point of picking on the clearly weaker. Viserys would have gone down in the first exchange and Daenerys ... well, we know what happens to women and girls throughout GRRM's world. As for "respecting him more" per Jabar, it would have just been a bigger joke: slaughtering the stripling popinjay who dared to wave around his puny blade. Remember, when you've got a gang of toughs, it takes somebody like Barristan Selmy or the Hound to successfully take them on. Not a mere kid. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Angel Eyes Posted July 9, 2018 Author Share Posted July 9, 2018 2 hours ago, zandru said: Well, that's what I like to call the "NRA Argument"**. Viserys did just fine at "keeping himself and his sister alive" without having to slaughter or rough up anyone, as far as we know. He used his tongue, lordly bearing and language, and his family name to beg food and shelter. Plus, they ran a lot. Even in Westeros/Essos, you don't have to kill your way to success. -------- ** National Rifle Association, for those readers not in the US. He needn’t slaughter, but at least defend himself, and he can’t even do that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Angel Eyes Posted July 9, 2018 Author Share Posted July 9, 2018 1 hour ago, zandru said: Bingo! Not only was Viserys a boy or young adolescent, but also those "hard men" never act alone. It's always a gang and they make a point of picking on the clearly weaker. Viserys would have gone down in the first exchange and Daenerys ... well, we know what happens to women and girls throughout GRRM's world. As for "respecting him more" per Jabar, it would have just been a bigger joke: slaughtering the stripling popinjay who dared to wave around his puny blade. Remember, when you've got a gang of toughs, it takes somebody like Barristan Selmy or the Hound to successfully take them on. Not a mere kid. He shouldn’t have gone with the Dothraki, since they only respect strength and skill, things that Viserys lacks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Takiedevushkikakzvezdy Posted July 9, 2018 Share Posted July 9, 2018 On 7/7/2018 at 9:22 PM, Charles Calthrop said: They were trying to survive - they didn’t have the resources to commit to getting trained. This one is pretty simple IMO. But why wasn't Viserys trained when they stayed with Willem Darry? Or even before the Rebellion? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zandru Posted July 9, 2018 Share Posted July 9, 2018 5 minutes ago, Angel Eyes said: He shouldn’t have gone with the Dothraki, since they only respect strength and skill, things that Viserys lacks. There, I agree! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aemond's Eye Posted July 9, 2018 Share Posted July 9, 2018 6 hours ago, Angel Eyes said: Which necessitates skill at arms. It doesn't necessarily, no. Being a good warrior wouldn't have kept he or Daenerys safe from assassins; he could have joined up with a sellsword company to build up his own wealth, but even then he can't ensure his sister's safety. Being able to do that requires allies and alliances - and without resources he's essentially beholden to the charity of others. The lack of resources is a far bigger threat to his safety than not being a good swordsman. Though the post I was replying to stated that Viserys had no excuse and was just lazy - and that's not why he wasn't a warrior. Had Darry been able to take the Targaryen fortune when them to Essos, it would have been much easier for the Targaryens to ensure their safety, buy alliances, tutors etc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aemond's Eye Posted July 9, 2018 Share Posted July 9, 2018 3 hours ago, Takiedevushkikakzvezdy said: But why wasn't Viserys trained when they stayed with Willem Darry? Or even before the Rebellion? He wasn't trained before the Rebellion in part due to his age - he was 6/7 at the time - and because Aerys was paranoid over threats to the boy's life. And that was before he named Viserys as his heir. Once they got to Essos I'd imagine Darry's immediate concern was ensuring their safety, and he then fell ill before he could train Viserys in arms. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Van Gogh Posted July 10, 2018 Share Posted July 10, 2018 11 hours ago, Angel Eyes said: He shouldn’t have gone with the Dothraki, since they only respect strength and skill, things that Viserys lacks. Viserys never bothered to understand the Dothraki. He only saw them as a means to fight Robert. He was thinking barter and they were thinking gift giving. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Commentator Posted July 12, 2018 Share Posted July 12, 2018 On 7/8/2018 at 5:54 PM, HoodedCrow said: Heirs without a spare were sometimes not put in harms way...Henry the VIII or his son, Edward. Girls were generally not trained. Heirs with moms like Cersei, may not be trained. Aerys was scared for his heir. On 7/9/2018 at 2:38 AM, It'sAlwaysWinterInScotland said: How about a lack of resources, people he could trust and the more pressing concern of keeping himself, and his sister, alive? This. They had to save their pennies for things like food. A sword is no good without food. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Commentator Posted July 12, 2018 Share Posted July 12, 2018 On 7/10/2018 at 12:39 AM, Helena Kyle said: Viserys never bothered to understand the Dothraki. He only saw them as a means to fight Robert. He was thinking barter and they were thinking gift giving. That was his biggest flaw. He does't take the time to understand. He was prejudiced. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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