Arya - Pate Theory [SPOILERS - Feast for Crows & Dance with Dragons]

[HerbziKal]

WARNING - THIS ENTIRE THEORY INVOLVES SPOILERS RIGHT UP TO AND INCLUDING A DANCE WITH DRAGONS, CHAPTER 64, THE UGLY LITTLE GIRL. NO SPOILERS FROM WINDS OF WINTER ARE DISCUSSED (I haven't read the chapters!)

I have a theory about Pate the Pig Boy, specifically his death and re-occurrence in Chapter 45 (Sam V) of Feast for Crows. My theory is that Arya, who displayed the initiative in using a poisoned gold coin to assassinate a man in A Dance with Dragons Chapter 64, may have actually have been the stranger who killed Pate using the same method in the prologue to A Feast for Crows. This would mean that both the prologue and Chapter 45 (Sam V) from Feast chronologically occur well after Chapter 64 of Dance. We know Arya has already met Sam as she rescues him from the river in Braavos (Feast Chapter 26 - Sam III), so we know she is aware of him, and could well have the secret motivation to track him down and to get close to him without him knowing.

In this chronology, Arya meets Sam, hides her identity from him, and becomes aware of who he is and what he is doing. She becomes a Faceless Man in order to change her face and develops a motif of performing assassinations (the poisoned coin). The only other Faceless Man she has known well is Jaqen H'ghar so she uses his speech mannerisms- "A stranger. No one. Truly." She then travels to Old Town, finds a way to get close to Sam (killing Pate in her preferred way and taking his place), and meets up with Sam again.

This is particularly kickass, as she would have been lying to the Faceless Men all along, hiding her true plans and motivations. Hiding them so well, that even when we are inside her head during her chapter perspectives, she doesn't think them- otherwise the Faceless Men would know. In the same way as Theon's "Reek" chapters, these chapters are never titled "Arya", as she has successfully suppressed Arya and her goals so well we (and the Faceless Men) never know them.

So what I am wondering is, firstly what do you guys think of the whole idea? And secondly, is there any definite sign in either of the Feast chapters that indicates this chronology is not possible?

[aryagonnakill#2]

That simply does not work chronologically.  Fake Pate is in Oldtown before Sam, and Arya is still in Bravos when Sam leaves.  Not to mention the fact that Arya was blinded by the FM for half a year following her killing of Daeron, and was in Bravos that entire time.

[kissdbyfire]

2 hours ago, aryagonnakill#2 said:

That simply does not work chronologically.  Fake Pate is in Oldtown before Sam, and Arya is still in Bravos when Sam leaves.  Not to mention the fact that Arya was blinded by the FM for half a year following her killing of Daeron, and was in Bravos that entire time.

This. Also, we have a description of the FM that takes Pate's face, and it matches the description we get when Jaqen and Arya part ways and the former changes his face. 

ACoK, Arya IX

“I do. My time is done.” Jaqen passed a hand down his face from forehead to chin, and where it went he changed. His cheeks grew fuller, his eyes closer; his nose hooked, a scar appeared on his right cheek where no scar had been before. And when he shook his head, his long straight hair, half red and half white, dissolved away to reveal a cap of tight black curls.”

AFfC, Prologue

“Show me your face.”
“As you wish.” The alchemist pulled his hood down.
He was just a man, and his face was just a face. A young man’s face, ordinary, with full cheeks and the shadow of a beard. A scar showed faintly on his right cheek. He had a hooked nose, and a mat of dense black hair that curled tightly around his ears. It was not a face Pate recognized. “I do not know you.”
“Nor I you.”
“Who are you?”
“A stranger. No one. Truly.”

 

 

[Seams]

A lot of the details of that Pate character match up with Quentyn Martell - he wants a queen (Rosy), he wants a dragon (coin) and he is burned (killed) in pursuit of that dragon. That doesn't mean that Quentyn IS Pate, just that their characters are parallel. It might mean we will see a mysteriously reborn version of Quentyn, similar to the Pate that is presented to the reader after the death of Pate in the alley.

But I commend you for a thoughtful first post that makes a good effort to analyze real information from the books. Arya does seem to invent that murder-by-coin, and we see the same (apparent) method used in the death of Pate. So there is something going on with an echo of Arya's assassin work in the Pate chapter. But I agree with other comments that the timeline doesn't work for Arya to make the trip to Oldtown.

[TPTWP Timett]

3 hours ago, Seams said:

A lot of the details of that Pate character match up with Quentyn Martell - he wants a queen (Rosy), he wants a dragon (coin) and he is burned (killed) in pursuit of that dragon. That doesn't mean that Quentyn IS Pate, just that their characters are parallel. It might mean we will see a mysteriously reborn version of Quentyn, similar to the Pate that is presented to the reader after the death of Pate in the alley.

But I commend you for a thoughtful first post that makes a good effort to analyze real information from the books. Arya does seem to invent that murder-by-coin, and we see the same (apparent) method used in the death of Pate. So there is something going on with an echo of Arya's assassin work in the Pate chapter. But I agree with other comments that the timeline doesn't work for Arya to make the trip to Oldtown.

I certainly hope we've seen the last of Quentyn I like the rest of his crew wouldn't mind more of them. As far as the coin and Arya goes I thought that the alchemist using the same assignation technique was meant to show the reader how well Arya is already doing and how suited she is for the job. If a novice is doing the same things as a experienced FM that's a good sign or at least a good indicator of her talents.

Sorry about the awkward wording can't use some letters and backspace on my phone without excessive trouble have to reword everything

[Sigella]

15 hours ago, TPTWP Timett said:

As far as the coin and Arya goes I thought that the alchemist using the same assignation technique was meant to show the reader how well Arya is already doing and how suited she is for the job.

Yes this. Only I take it to mean that Arya's idea gets capitalised upon by the FM, the sincerest form of flattery and all.

 

I really don't think its her though - text points to Jaqen.

[Nevets]

19 hours ago, TPTWP Timett said:

I certainly hope we've seen the last of Quentyn I like the rest of his crew wouldn't mind more of them. As far as the coin and Arya goes I thought that the alchemist using the same assignation technique was meant to show the reader how well Arya is already doing and how suited she is for the job. If a novice is doing the same things as a experienced FM that's a good sign or at least a good indicator of her talents.

Sorry about the awkward wording can't use some letters and backspace on my phone without excessive trouble have to reword everything

She may be talented, but personality-wise, she is a poor fit to be an assassin on command.  She is very independent and doesn't take orders very well, and her strong personality keeps showing itself.  Worst of all, she still has a strong moral compass and conscience.  While a little shaky at times, it is still there, and I have a very difficult time seeing her willing to kill somebody she doesn't believe to be guilty of wrongdoing.  Even with the insurance man, it was only after she had been convinced of his villainy that she was wiling to conduct the murder.

I find it had to believe that the FM hasn't already figured this out.  I think they are just stringing her along until they have a good excuse to remove her, but force to otherwise keep ties, so that she can help them in other ways.  I expect there is a network of such persons.

[Megorova]

19 hours ago, TPTWP Timett said:

As far as the coin and Arya goes I thought that the alchemist using the same assignation technique

Maybe she has learned it from him.

[Nevets]

8 minutes ago, Megorova said:

Maybe she has learned it from him.

I doubt it.  I can see no reason for him to teach her at Harrenhal, and expect that he was long gone from Braavos by the time she arrived.  I do recall that once she came up with the idea, she needed quite a bit of help from the Waif, though.

[HerbziKal]

Thanks for all the responses and discussion guys!

Quote

As far as the coin and Arya goes I thought that the alchemist using the same assignation technique was meant to show the reader how well Arya is already doing and how suited she is for the job.

Yes this. Only I take it to mean that Arya's idea gets capitalised upon by the FM, the sincerest form of flattery and all.

So you agree the chronology could be such that Arya committed the coin assassination in Dance previous to Pate's death in Feast? The Face that kills Pate is certainly the same as Jaqen's from Clash.... but when men can change faces, keeping track of who is who is harder.

All in all I agree the chronology is the biggest convolution to this theory, but no one has found any evidence that says it can't be so yet....

[kissdbyfire]

The timeline doesn't work at all. The prologue in AFfC takes place several months before ADwD The Ugly Little Girl. 

[HerbziKal]

Quote

The timeline doesn't work at all. The prologue in AFfC takes place several months before ADwD The Ugly Little Girl. 

Is there any evidence you can show me from the books that supports this? Some others seem to think the chronology is not set in stone like that.

[aryagonnakill#2]

2 hours ago, HerbziKal said:

Is there any evidence you can show me from the books that supports this? Some others seem to think the chronology is not set in stone like that.

I already explained it to you, are you just trolling or are you incapable of reading?

[kissdbyfire]

2 hours ago, HerbziKal said:

Is there any evidence you can show me from the books that supports this? Some others seem to think the chronology is not set in stone like that.

What @aryagonnakill#2 said upthread, the very first reply here. Then many other clues too. It starts snowing in the Riverlands towards the end of AFfC and Arya sees snow in the Riverlands through Nymeria's eyes in The Blind Girl, which comes before The Ugly Little Girl. 

The Boiled Leather combined Feast/Dance reading order, and several timelines that can be found online. 

[zandru]

It seems likely to me that Pate was killed by poison on the gold dragon "the alchemist" gave him. Arya assassinated the Bravosi insurance fraudster using a poisoned coin that she planted in the purse of his soon to be customer. In no way does this imply that Arya must have been the alchemist who killed Pate, nor that the Faceless Men learned the coin trick from Arya. Throughout the world, people bite gold coins to see if they're genuine. It is known. Putting poison on a gold coin is therefore obvious. (But thoe trick continues to work because almost nobody ever does it, and when they do, they use a poison that simulates a natural mode of death.)

Alternatively - do you believe that, because Arya killed the King's Landing stable boy with a sword, and Sandor Clegane kills people with a sword, then Arya is actually Sandor?

[HerbziKal]

@zandruhahaha yeah the two happening does not at all mean they are the same person XD it was just an idea that people seem to have taken rather badly :p

@aryagonnakill#2 Sorry, I should have been clearer. I don't count you simply saying it is the case as evidence. I am looking for evidence that what you said ("That simply does not work chronologically.  Fake Pate is in Oldtown before Sam, and Arya is still in Bravos when Sam leaves.") is actually true. The entire idea hinges on the fact that chronology could be false. To be clear, I don't believe this theory is true, any more than I believe it false. I simply do not know, and I am after are contextual evidences to prove it either way.

 @kissdbyfire Thanks for the extra contextual evidences. That just about settles it.

[John Suburbs]

@HerbziKal

There is also the problem of Arya having to report to the HoBaW every new moon, which would be impossible with a trip to Oldtown and back.

But nice try on your first attempt at piercing Martin's textual veil. Keep at it.